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Larry Callahan
01-03-2019, 08:58 PM
I love rowing gears and the noise of burning fuel. I also love the quiet crazy instant torque from an electric motor.

Does anyone else want to see a battery powered Pro-Touring car rolling down the freeway and autocrossing or is it just me?

If I had the time and money I would be all over this. In fact I've had the bug for about a decade and hope to do it someday.

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2019/01/03/model-3-drivetrain-1.jpg (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/bMLwh)

Jrhdohc
01-03-2019, 09:55 PM
Maybe call Sasha Anis engineer and owner of OnPoint dyno in Canada. He took relatively new Lotus chassis. Installed the best power unit from Tesla (I think), batteries from GM Volt (I think) and motor controller from somewhere. Programmed them with MoTeC and custom CAN hacked programming from a physicist in Europe. It’s really fast car. But took a year or so to build due to software. He contacted engineers from all the major automotive companies and they helped him the best they could considering he was mixing parts from different cars.

Would be faster but he put enough batteries to drive 300 miles at cruise or almost 50-80 at full throttle

David Pozzi
01-03-2019, 11:21 PM
It would make a hell of an autox car if it was 4WD but the electrical side would be tough.

stab6902
01-04-2019, 05:04 AM
People are starting to build them. I agree with the above comments; they make killer drag and autocross cars. I think whoever puts together a well thought out "plug and play" conversion kit stands to make some good money. There are plenty of pros and cons to electric conversions that people love to argue about, but you have to respect the instant torque and near zero maintenance. Most of the staunchly anti-electric people I've talked to have never driven a high performance electric car. Don't knock it until you try it! Here are some links for inspiration:

- Charge 1967 Mustang: https://charge.cars/
- Blood Shed 19668 Mustang: http://www.bloodshedmotors.com/; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vTCK9ywBA
- eCOPO new Camaro: https://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-ecopo-camaro-concept-is-a-700-hp-electric-drag-racer/

Not muscle cars, but also interesting:
- Lots of old VW's and Porsches: http://www.zelectricmotors.com/
- Gasser 1981 Accord: https://electrek.co/2018/04/13/tesla-powered-honda-accord-teslonda-record/; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF0fNkL886c

parsonsj
01-04-2019, 06:23 AM
Pro-Touring is about instilling modern drivetrains and amenities on older vehicles. Electric cars are the future. F1 has been using hybrids since 2014. An electric or hybrid pro-touring car would be way cool!

I'd love to get my hands on one of the GM electric motors from the eCOPO Camaro.

Turbo6inKY
01-04-2019, 07:52 AM
GM had an electric COPO Camaro on display at SEMA. 800 volt system, motor unit bolted directly to a Chevy TH400 transmission. Something like 658lb-ft at 1 rpm and 700+Hp at 10,000 RPM. There are a couple of videos floating on Youtube about it.

It was a concept, but I think it's coming. The tech is proven, they're just down to packaging. And it would be cool. Talking with the guy, their biggest concert is figuring out how to turn it into a product that won't electrocute an amateur installer. 1400amps at 800v is nothing to mess with.

Shawn0331
01-04-2019, 07:57 AM
GM had an electric COPO Camaro on display at SEMA. 800 volt system, motor unit bolted directly to a Chevy TH400 transmission. Something like 658lb-ft at 1 rpm and 700+Hp at 10,000 RPM.

I dont understand how a trans and diff/axles can handle instant trq like that. Also id love to build a really small classic car like a triumph and put a sportbike V4 with hybrid drive train. Best sound in the word plus 200ft lbs of additional trq would be way to much fun.

stab6902
01-04-2019, 08:19 AM
I dont understand how a trans and diff/axles can handle instant trq like that.

I know the production electric cars have sophisticated torque management software that "holds back" some of the available torque (the amount depends on what drive mode you're in) to save the rest of the driveline. I imagine GM is doing something similar with the eCOPO Camaro, but that car is unique because is uses an old school torque converter automatic. Most other electric cars are direct drive.

Torque management is nothing particularly new; the OEMs have been doing this to prolong the life of drivetrain components in auto transmission cars for many years.

CarlC
01-04-2019, 08:54 AM
Agree with David that it's the control side that is difficult.

I'd be all over an electric option if it could be installed without having to have a series of doctorate level folks help to set it up. An OEM crate motor (not engine ;-) ) option would be, from a practical standpoint, the way to go.

I'm a bit skeptical on many of the hot-rod builds since often they lack the refinement level that many of us seek. The "Wow, it has an electric motor!" is often soon overshadowed by the clunky and/or unrefined drive quality and/or other compromises. High-power conversions are much more difficult (heat) to deal with than a simple dump-a-motor-and-batteries into a lightweight chassis. There are some conversions like this at local car shows and I cringe at the lack of safety.

Road course use is a whole different animal, not dissimilar to gasoline engines from a cooling standpoint. Whereas gasoline engines have a ton of support and readily accessible liquid cooling systems, electric motors and battery packs typically do not. Not to mention the difficulty of at-track charging. The future is bright here with Tesla's road course upgraded drivetrain and battery pack cooling systems, but the vast majority of builds won't be this way.

Eventually the USA will go the way of major European cities where zero emission vehicles are the only ones allowed during most hours. Though classics may get a pass, better and more accessible electric powertrains should become available.

Chad-1stGen
01-04-2019, 03:16 PM
I was a bit disappointed in the GM eCOPO concept. Just the battery pack weighs more than the engine and tranmission of an LS3. Then you add the heavy electric motor and the fact it still uses a transmission and well, that setup would be a total dog on an autocross.

Putting a dual motor Tesla drivetrain in an early muscle car with a low slung battery might be fun. The challenge with the battery pack is that in order to sustain the extremely high discharge rates that creates the massive torque/hp you need a large battery pack. Without the large pack, you can't get the burst energy needed so then you end up carrying around 500+ lbs of battery that you don't even need for energy density. That's a killer for autocross handling. When future battery technology allows greater energy discharge rates and you can use smaller compact batteries with less energy density then I see an all electric autocross car being really fun!

There is a Cobra kit car with all electric drive train that has autocrossed in San Diego SCCA a few times. It did good. Definitely performed well enough to put a smile on anyone's face. But it was still slower than some of the other CAM cars there.

parsonsj
01-04-2019, 07:18 PM
If Toyota (and others) can get solid-state batteries into mass production, that's a game changer. Faster charge rates, less cooling requirements, denser energy storage. It's coming...

Interceptor5588
01-05-2019, 06:56 AM
Check out the video of the Pikes Peak record setting VW electric car. Its CRAZY fast.

CarlC
01-05-2019, 12:26 PM
Agree with JP and Chad about current battery tech. Ot may be quite a while before we see practical usage since there is so much new infrastructure surrounding current battery tech. Think Tesla's gigafactory and $ investment.

If someone offered a rolling chassis with battery and motor(s) already attached.......

Turbo6inKY
01-05-2019, 05:57 PM
I dont understand how a trans and diff/axles can handle instant trq like that. Also id love to build a really small classic car like a triumph and put a sportbike V4 with hybrid drive train. Best sound in the word plus 200ft lbs of additional trq would be way to much fun.

Easy, put a torque converter in front of it.

You'll never want to use electric with a manual. That would be a terrific recipe for mechanical carnage.

1stgenchop
01-06-2019, 08:50 AM
I love the idea and would be so all over an E-touring car!!!
No grease under the nails, no fumes in the clothes, quick, clean, quiet power. Can't wait.

stab6902
01-07-2019, 09:31 AM
Another cool build to check out: https://jalopnik.com/an-electric-swapped-honda-s2000-is-delicious-blasphemy-1831441635

cornfedbill
01-07-2019, 09:55 AM
I went for a ride in a Tesla P100D when at the Sandhill Open Road Challenge in 2017. The acceleration was brutal.

I know there is a lot of appeal and that there will be electric Pro-Touring and Autocross cars. They will be in a different category than their fossil fuel burning companions. In autocross they have the potential to be the fastest cars out there.

I doubt I will ever change over due to the cost differential and my affinity for exhaust noise and shifting gears. But I know I will not be able to keep up with the electric cars in any short duration event. That's just how it is.

oleyeller
01-07-2019, 10:20 AM
Shocking!

Zachalanche
01-08-2019, 08:38 PM
It makes a lot of sense to convert an older car to electric in some cases. My old fairlane has no power steering, no power brakes (which reduces the complexity of converting) and a massive trunk for batteries. Electric motors are dirt cheap, but unfortunately if you want power, and/ or range, the batteries become cost prohibitive. So greasy gas guzzler my car will stay, until it becomes cheaper, or there is better incentive to go the E-route.

That said, I like the idea. Just wish i had the time and money to explore it.

Turbo6inKY
01-09-2019, 07:59 AM
It makes a lot of sense to convert an older car to electric in some cases. My old fairlane has no power steering, no power brakes (which reduces the complexity of converting) and a massive trunk for batteries. Electric motors are dirt cheap, but unfortunately if you want power, and/ or range, the batteries become cost prohibitive. So greasy gas guzzler my car will stay, until it becomes cheaper, or there is better incentive to go the E-route.

That said, I like the idea. Just wish i had the time and money to explore it.

You might be better off bolting the batteries under the floor and keeping your trunk. The packs are quite flat.

TheJDMan
01-24-2019, 03:20 PM
I'm not so much interested in a 100% electric, I'm more interested in a hybrid set up. For her current car my wife chose a Lexus hybrid which I initially thought was a really bad idea. But after driving it for the past two years I have changed my mind about hybrids. I have actually spoken with Kevin Otise about a hybrid install a couple of years ago. At the time it was very cost prohibitive but I suspect it will become more common in time. I suspect it is just a matter of time before someone comes out with a kit to retrofit older cars to electric or hybrid drive.

cornfedbill
01-25-2019, 06:10 AM
I am going out on a limb to make a prediction. Forward thinkers like Rob MacGregor will soon think about the advantages of electric power for autocross, and will build cars with all wheel drive and lightning fast corner to corner acceleration, and smooth regenerative braking without heating up the rotors.

A well designed purpose built electric autocross car with a classic body will be unbeatable with conventional gasoline powered RWD cars. There will need to be distinct classes to separate conventional from electric cars.

I don't like electric cars, but recognize the performance potential.

andrewb70
02-09-2019, 03:52 PM
It is already happening...

https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2556625

Andrew

Bird of Prey
02-09-2019, 08:33 PM
I lost my car (a chic as usual). An electric drivetrain was to nice . I keep wanting to do it again . it is nothing but thrust .

68Formula
02-12-2019, 05:19 PM
After spending $600 on golf cart batteries last summer, I shudder at the thought of replacing them on a full-size vehicle.

Zspoiler
02-12-2019, 06:27 PM
Well Ford has the GT with a hybrid road race car ,And Tesla has a sports car coming out. So down the line there will be more.

badazz81z28
02-23-2019, 10:44 AM
After spending $600 on golf cart batteries last summer, I shudder at the thought of replacing them on a full-size vehicle.


I think we can all agree electric power trains have performance capability. But I won’t even think about electric until I can get the range and the ability to recharge with ease. Haven’t done too much research, but I don’t understand how these cars don’t have systems to keep them charged as you drive? Can you imagine needing to recharge the battery in a gas car every time you drive it?? Good lord!!

Tsaints1115
02-23-2019, 01:38 PM
It's refreshing to see a thread about electric cars without the usual "When they take the gas nozzle from my cold dead hands" comments.

I for one would be excited to have a 60-70's era car retrofit with an electric drivetrain. They've already shown that when properly done they can stomp the cookies out of a fuel powered vehicle. For me the goal would be for it to have a daily mileage range equal to a fuel car or incredible performance depending on how one flipped the switch.

The thing is we need to have progressive thought on this subject if we want to drive the cars we love. The threat isn't running out of fossil fuel. The threat is countries will legislate it out of existence long before it runs out. We can either adapt or resign ourselves to rubbing wax on a non running garage decoration.

silvermonte
03-30-2019, 01:14 PM
I really had not given any thought to electric cars at all till my brother got his Tesla Model 3 two weeks ago. I can see what the hype is about them, fun to drive for sure and the braking system works surprisingly well, has something to do with the motors helping it stop along with the brakes.

D-Man
03-30-2019, 08:37 PM
I'm looking forward to the simplicity, low maintenance, low operating cost, and long life of electric cars of the near future. However, I will NEVER convert my muscle car to electric. NEVER. :usa:

67King
03-31-2019, 05:25 AM
I think we can all agree electric power trains have performance capability. But I won’t even think about electric until I can get the range and the ability to recharge with ease. Haven’t done too much research, but I don’t understand how these cars don’t have systems to keep them charged as you drive? Can you imagine needing to recharge the battery in a gas car every time you drive it?? Good lord!!

I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying. How can an electric vehicle keep itself charged anymore than a gasoline vehicle keep itself fueled? You have to refuel gas cars every so often......no different than having to recharge an electric for a similar amount of miles (except you can do it at home!). Electrics now have over 300 miles of range. In the case of Tesla, they've got a few thousand supercharger stations, so if you are going cross country, you stop for 20 minutes, get 80% of your range charged while you grab lunch, and keep going. For the other 364 days per year, just plug it up when you get home.

I LOVE electrics. I would have bought a Tesla S a year ago if the ergonomics were better. As it is, my BMW is up for sale now, and when it goes, I'll likely buy a Tesla 3.

Dream project would be a 70-73 Firebird with a Telsa drivetrain. Great googly moogly, best looking American car ever made (obviously IMHO) with the best driving experience out there.

TheJDMan
03-31-2019, 07:44 AM
Recharging while driving is exactly the scenario that is addressed by a hybrid drive. As I mentioned earlier my wife drives a hybrid Lexus and it uses a combination of electric motor and small gas engine. In this setup it will run either on electric or gas/electric all computer controlled of course.

Seems to me a range of about 300 miles is about right for a local commuter, but making a cross country EV trip would still be a challenge and would require some serious planning. Assuming that a typical EV would always be plugged in at home every night so in effect you would leave home every morning with a full tank, I'm wondering how people envision a typical present day convenience store with 20 or so gas pumps in an all EV world. Would you still need 20 charging stations? If you don't need to stop for a recharge do you still stop at a convenience store to buy whatever?

D-Man
03-31-2019, 08:41 AM
There's also regenerative braking, but that's not going to help much on the interstate. I agree a 300 mile "range" for cross country would be a major PIA. And advertised range is under "normal" conditions. Headwind, snow, rolling hills or mountains, low ambient temperature, heater or A/C running, and/or passengers and luggage, all cut into that 300 miles. So instead of 300 you could easily have a 250 mile max range. Plus you don't drive 250-300 miles and just pull into the charging station located on every corner like gas. So maybe you have to stop at 200 miles because that where the charging station is and maybe you drive 5, 10 or more miles out of your way as well. Then a lot of the superchargers are not located near any good restaurants so better pack a lunch. Also the advertised range is when the car is new. Batteries degrade over time so in 4-5 years you may only have 90% (?) of your original capacity. Then to top it off once you roll into town you have a mostly dead battery and grandpa only has 120v in the garage, or the hotel charging spots are full, so don't plan on running around town until tomorrow morning.