feedback on Speedtech / Ridetech full suspension for factory frame - 2nd gen Camaro

[c4racer2]

I'm looking at both Speedtech and Ridetech full suspension systems for my 71 and looking for some experience in a 2nd gen. These two seem to be the best designed and well thought out complete packages for our cars using the stock subframe. I like that both use a re-designed spindle that improves geometry - in particular camber gain over the full suspension travel range - into something more aligned with modern performance cars.

So far I prefer the Speedtech spindle design using a sealed ZR1 hub, but there is nothing wrong with the Ridetech approach either. With either system I would run Wildwood Aero6 brakes and a 1.25" rotor so cost there is similar.

Ridetech is cheaper by $600-700, which is 10% - not a major swing factor.
One advantage of Speedtech is they offer the front and rear suspension packages separately which is how I would prefer to stage them over a 1-2 year period. So that's a major plus.

I get the impression the Ridetech is adapted from the first gen Tru-turn design, where Speedtech is more of a ground up design for the 2nd gen, and seems the sponsored or internally built cars are more 2nd gen for Speedtech and 1st gen for Ridetech. So that has me leaning towards Speedtech as well.

And I also prefer the torque arm design to the 4 link on the rear suspension although both would work great I'm sure.

Anybody here have the Speedtech Street Fighter front suspension or the Ridetech full coil over system?

Car is a street car that will see some autox and HPDE level track days and plenty of street time. 500hp 406 SBC and soon to get a T56. Which is also part of the reason for staging things since I have to allocate some funds to the front brakes and the T56 swap next and I already spent some $ on power steering and entire front accessory drive plus a bunch of other little projects the car needed to move it towards my goals.

[TBART70]

I have the full front kit from Speed Tech, stock frame. 1000 miles on it. Drives great, kit was complete, full coilover conversion. I still have to re-align the front end after I finish some other mods but even the way the car is set up now I am still very happy with it. Luckily with a SBC you should be able to get it to the ideal ride height that puts it where it should be height wise. ( I have a BBC with low hanging headers.)

[c4racer2]

Thanks for the report. Which shocks did you get ? I was thinking the Viking DA option.

[Typhoon1015]

For what your goals are, both are great options. If your a set it and forget it type, either will do the job and you wont have to worry about it. If your a tinker/tuner, your preferences for that might sway you one way or another. Tech support may also play a factor between companies. UMI Performance just came out with some 2nd gen stuff as well that would fit into your build/budget as needed.

[c4racer2]

I am not set and forget. More of a tune for the track / tires / driving style guy.

Former competitive scca Fstock and ESP racer and open track instructor and raced in the nasa CMC series. Built several dual purpose and dedicated race cars.

I saw the UMI stuff. I don’t know that company. Speedtech and Ridetech have a much stronger reputation / track record. Not looking to save a few $
This is not a cheap car.
I mean it’s not a $100K+ car but it’s a $40-$50K car with function and decent looks.

[Steve Chryssos]

C4,
For the record, RideTech offers front suspensions separately as our TruTurn system. That includes spindles and StrongArm tubular A-arms. ...and no, RideTech's 2nd-Gen front suspension is not an offshoot of the 1st-gen system. It is its own development program with tens of thousands of street autocross and road course track miles. If you go with Speedtech, be sure to take a good hard look at RideTech shocks. Typically, half the field at Goodguys Autocross and other events run RideTech shocks -- not just because the shocks flat out work, but because we're there at most events supporting our customers with their vehicle setup and driving. Thank you for considering us.
Steve

[TBART70]

Thanks for the report. Which shocks did you get ? I was thinking the Viking DA option.

Ride Tech coilovers all around.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Thanks for the good words!

Our 2nd gen kits were completely revamped early this year. It's not a 100% copy of our 1st gen kit but we did use some of the same tactics to create better geometry and a better ride.

Some of key points of the new control arm system:
-The lower arms have a double sheer lower mount for increased strength. We have also dropped the lower shock mount to increase suspension travel and moved the lower ball joint forward to increase caster settings while keeping the wheel centered in the wheel opening.
-The Upper StrongArms feature corrected ball joint angles for the tall spindles. The upper ball joint have been moved back to allow for additional caster setting to improve high speed stability and steering feel.
-Both upper and lower arms use injection molded delrin bushings to allow the arms to move with less stiction and deflection.

In the new Truturn system, we utilize the same spindle we use in several of our other kits for a few reasons.
- It is also a tall spindle, increasing the camber gain.
- 2" drop spindle so it allows us to still run a shock w/ longer travel for better ride quality/handling.
- There are MANY brake options available for it

The rear is a completely different design all together than the previous ones.
- One of the biggest issues addressed is the production variations and frame rail thickness issues that are common to the second-generation F-Body platform. The "unicradle" features two lateral tubes that index off of the leaf spring mounting points rather than the frame rails. A separate steel brace bolts to the inside of the rear bulkhead area (in the cockpit) behind the seat to locate the forward mounting points of the upper link bars.
- Longer upper bars with adjustable mounting points for improved roll center, forward bite, and anti-squat.
- Four link bars that come standard with our new R-Joint spherical rod ends. They create low friction movement, lateral stability, full range articulation, and quiet operation.
- Everything is bolt in other than the upper link/lower axle brackets on the rear end housing.
** The main goal of the new four link was to significantly strengthen all of the known weak points in this platform. With the amount of power people are putting down, tire size (and stickiness), the end goal was to create something that tied everything together and made it rock solid.

We've used this kit on our most recent 48 Hour Camaro and our Track1 Camaro. We've ran the life out of them on the street and on the track and came out with great reviews. Obviously, we've all got our own preferences but I wanted to throw some of this information up for you to read! I have this same kit on my Firebird and I will say that it made my car a much better driver in every aspect. It's not a race car by any means (at least not yet...) but if it can do anything, it can take a corner and I enjoy driving it much more than I ever have!

If I can help out at all, let me know if I can help!

[c4racer2]

Ah - got it - thanks for pointing out the option to separate the front from rear set-up. When you search the website for suspension for 1970 Camaro it only shows the full suspension - but on that page it has links to the front tru-turn system and the coil over kits.
I'm assuming then I would pair the tru-turn with the HQ shocks?
So that's $2950 for the front set-up plus $425 for the sway bar - total $3375
Am I missing anything? Also - if I have a hotchis front sway bar is it worth swapping out to the RT unit?

Seems this is a pretty solid value vs. the Speedtech front system considering it includes the steering linkage.

I was more focused on C5/6 brake kits so need to do more research on what I can run with this - basically any kit designed for a first gen Camaro?

Also - Josh, thank you for more history behind this new design. I do appreciate the details behind this you provided - that gives me a lot more to think about with respect to the RT offering.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Ah - got it - thanks for pointing out the option to separate the front from rear set-up. When you search the website for suspension for 1970 Camaro it only shows the full suspension - but on that page it has links to the front tru-turn system and the coil over kits.
I'm assuming then I would pair the tru-turn with the HQ shocks?
So that's $2950 for the front set-up plus $425 for the sway bar - total $3375
Am I missing anything? Also - if I have a hotchis front sway bar is it worth swapping out to the RT unit?

Seems this is a pretty solid value vs. the Speedtech front system considering it includes the steering linkage.

I was more focused on C5/6 brake kits so need to do more research on what I can run with this - basically any kit designed for a first gen Camaro?

Also - Josh, thank you for more history behind this new design. I do appreciate the details behind this you provided - that gives me a lot more to think about with respect to the RT offering.

No problem! You're correct on the front parts and prices, that would be everything for the front you can get from us. It really is about as complete as you can get being that it does come with all of the new linkage as well. The big bonus to our sway bar are the posi-links that create a better range of motion and reduce binding.

And yep! The brake kits designed for a factory A/F body disc brake spindle will swap directly over to our spindle. Baer and Wilwood actually have an option on their site to search by the spindle manufacturer (Ridetech is an option) where you can select your make/model and it will show every kit they have available for you.

If you're set on C5/C6 brakes, the guys at Kore3 Motorsports have built the adapter brackets/hub pieces needed to use on the A/F body cars, they've done it many times. Tobin is the guy to talk to there, just tell him you're using the Ridetech spindle and he can point you in the right direction.

[c4racer2]

Perfect thanks. No I want to go wildwood aero6 anyway. Was just looking at C5/6 kits using Kore3 w stock spindles or ATS spindles.
They have the kit I want. The big piston calipers and 14x1.25” rotors.

[CSG]

Curious why you would want the wilwoods instead of a z06 setup. I know they are popular but I've never been impressed with them other than looks.

[c4racer2]

I am running manual brakes. The Z06 calipers use tiny 1.25” pistons which is just under 4sq-in PA. Not a very good design for use with a manual brake setup.

The same Aero6 calipers I am planning are the spec big brake kit for the scca spec corvette C6 race cars. So I am pretty confident they will work.

It really depends which calipers and rotors with wildwood. The narrow SL I don’t like so much and they often use 1.1” rotors instead of 1.25” which is not adequate for much track use.

[CSG]

Good info, thanks. My wilwood experience is limited to their lower cost stuff so that is why I asked. I know lots use them but you don't ever know how they really get used.

[c4racer2]

Yes - agree the lower cost stuff is pretty worthless for any track driving. They make a big range of products. Some of it is quite good.

[c4racer2]

Thanks for the good words!

Our 2nd gen kits were completely revamped early this year. It's not a 100% copy of our 1st gen kit but we did use some of the same tactics to create better geometry and a better ride.

Some of key points of the new control arm system:
-The lower arms have a double sheer lower mount for increased strength. We have also dropped the lower shock mount to increase suspension travel and moved the lower ball joint forward to increase caster settings while keeping the wheel centered in the wheel opening.
-The Upper StrongArms feature corrected ball joint angles for the tall spindles. The upper ball joint have been moved back to allow for additional caster setting to improve high speed stability and steering feel.
-Both upper and lower arms use injection molded delrin bushings to allow the arms to move with less stiction and deflection.

In the new Truturn system, we utilize the same spindle we use in several of our other kits for a few reasons.
- It is also a tall spindle, increasing the camber gain.
- 2" drop spindle so it allows us to still run a shock w/ longer travel for better ride quality/handling.
- There are MANY brake options available for it

If I can help out at all, let me know if I can help!

Josh. One question. Is the tru turn spindle taller than a stock second gen spindle ? If so by how much ?

Thanks !!

[Josh@Ridetech]

Josh. One question. Is the tru turn spindle taller than a stock second gen spindle ? If so by how much ?

Thanks !!

On the 2nd gen, it's not a whole lot taller than the stock one. I measured my stock spindle last night and it's measuring right at 8.75", the RT tall spindle measures right at 8.875". We use a the tall spindle in conjunction with our a balljoint in our Truturn kit.

With the full Truturn kit installed, the final camber gain number is right at 1/2° per inch of compression travel (whereas the stock camber gain is right at 1/4° per inch).

[c4racer2]

Is that more because of the angle change than the height change ?

Also can you run a 275 front tire on a 9.5” wheel with 5.5-6” bs with this kit including the sway bar? At some point the frame becomes the limiting factor right ?

[Josh@Ridetech]

Is that more because of the angle change than the height change ?

Also can you run a 275 front tire on a 9.5” wheel with 5.5-6” bs with this kit including the sway bar? At some point the frame becomes the limiting factor right ?

It's more height related on that portion, the spindle itself is right at the 1/8" taller and then we the 1/2" taller balljoint than factory to help with the camber gain.

We're running a 275 on a 10" wide wheel in the front of our '70 Camaro with the same kit, no issues at all. Just get your backspacing dialed in with whatever brake setup you want to run and you'll be good!

[c4racer2]

Ok great. Thanks. I’m looking at the wildwood aero6 kit with the bigger pistons and billet calipers and 1.25” 14” rotors for the RT calipers. $2300.

[c4racer2]

And I may run a 10” wheel. Depends if I can get the vintage V45 to fit with those brakes I’ll run those. I have the V40 on now in 17” and I really like the look. But those wheels don’t have the best caliper clearance. We’ll see.
Maybe a .25” spacer.
I can get bs at 5.5, 5.75 or 6” with that wheel.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Ok great. Thanks. I’m looking at the wildwood aero6 kit with the bigger pistons and billet calipers and 1.25” 14” rotors for the RT calipers. $2300.

Sounds good, just let me know if I can help out at all!

[c4racer2]

Ok picking this thread back up!

Update on my car - I decided to leave the front stock type springs and traditional shocks for now. Stayed with stock 2nd gen spindles with DSE upper arms.
StopTech brakes all around ST60 / ST40

Now it’s time to do the rear suspension. I was pretty set on the speedtech TA with RT coilovers. But now I’m looking more at the packaging and don’t thing my x pipe exhaust will fit and seems like could be tight to the 3.5” driveshaft as well.

So taking another look at the Ridetech redesigned 2nd gen 4link. I like the R joints much better than Heim joints and the install looks reasonable and seems like a strong design with good geometry.

Given this uses the stock spring pockets does the new frame rail become the limiting factor for tires? I am not doing mini tub but might try to fit a 315 with stock tubs and smashing in the seatbelt bumps. I can fit 295s easily now and almost have clearance for 315s as it is.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Ok picking this thread back up!

Update on my car - I decided to leave the front stock type springs and traditional shocks for now. Stayed with stock 2nd gen spindles with DSE upper arms.
StopTech brakes all around ST60 / ST40

Now it’s time to do the rear suspension. I was pretty set on the speedtech TA with RT coilovers. But now I’m looking more at the packaging and don’t thing my x pipe exhaust will fit and seems like could be tight to the 3.5” driveshaft as well.

So taking another look at the Ridetech redesigned 2nd gen 4link. I like the R joints much better than Heim joints and the install looks reasonable and seems like a strong design with good geometry.

Given this uses the stock spring pockets does the new frame rail become the limiting factor for tires? I am not doing mini tub but might try to fit a 315 with stock tubs and smashing in the seatbelt bumps. I can fit 295s easily now and almost have clearance for 315s as it is.

The new four link is definitely a cool piece between the design and the R-joints, it made my car feel alot more solid and everything moves much nicer. The factory tub/frame rails are still your limiting factors. Our rails that we send out with the kit mount inboard of the factory pieces so the only way that you'll gain tire clearance is if you mini-tub it.

[Sleeper68]

Ok picking this thread back up!

Update on my car - I decided to leave the front stock type springs and traditional shocks for now. Stayed with stock 2nd gen spindles with DSE upper arms.
StopTech brakes all around ST60 / ST40

Now it’s time to do the rear suspension. I was pretty set on the speedtech TA with RT coilovers. But now I’m looking more at the packaging and don’t thing my x pipe exhaust will fit and seems like could be tight to the 3.5” driveshaft as well.

So taking another look at the Ridetech redesigned 2nd gen 4link. I like the R joints much better than Heim joints and the install looks reasonable and seems like a strong design with good geometry.

Given this uses the stock spring pockets does the new frame rail become the limiting factor for tires? I am not doing mini tub but might try to fit a 315 with stock tubs and smashing in the seatbelt bumps. I can fit 295s easily now and almost have clearance for 315s as it is.

What front springs and dampers did you go with? I too kept the "stock style" springs and dampers on my Camaro, obviously with more spring rate and damping.

Also did you replace the lower control arms? Factory Camaro control arms (especially the lowers) are very prone to cracking. The lower arm is under much more load than the upper and it is imperative that they be replaced if you plan on doing any type of racing.

Regarding your rear suspension, I recommend you call Mark Savitske at Savitske Classic & Custom (SC&C). I'll include his info below. He is very knowledgeable and can help you build a system that works well. Many of his kits include parts from different manufacturers and are built to work together. He performs a ton of testing including thousands of street miles on every component he sells. He is also very willing to help troubleshoot. I've had many 1.5+ hour conversations with him.

You may want to consider staying with leaf springs as well. It is possible to get them to perform better than most think. This may be especially of interest to you because it is like SCCA SOLO CAM-T will be split into an unlimited and limited section coming up very soon. Being an experienced SCCA competitor, I'm sure you're aware of the Clubs' trend from open to tight controlling rules. I've heard the limited class will allow geometry, spring, damper, etc changes but will require the vehicle retain its stock suspension topology; for example, the vehicle must keep an SLA front and leaf spring rear suspension if it was originally equipped with one from the factory.

I find it very interesting that you did the Camaro Mustang Challenge Series. How was that? I am looking to get into more NASA/SCCA open road course racing, likely in the Time Trials series. Virtually all of my driving experience is with autocross so I'm always eager to learn from those who have been in road racing heavily.

Best Regards,

Ryan


Mark Savitske
Savitske Classic and Custom
610.381.6100
http://scandc.com/

[c4racer2]

What front springs and dampers did you go with? I too kept the "stock style" springs and dampers on my Camaro, obviously with more spring rate and damping.

Also did you replace the lower control arms? Factory Camaro control arms (especially the lowers) are very prone to cracking. The lower arm is under much more load than the upper and it is imperative that they be replaced if you plan on doing any type of racing.

Regarding your rear suspension, I recommend you call Mark Savitske at Savitske Classic & Custom (SC&C). I'll include his info below. He is very knowledgeable and can help you build a system that works well. Many of his kits include parts from different manufacturers and are built to work together. He performs a ton of testing including thousands of street miles on every component he sells. He is also very willing to help troubleshoot. I've had many 1.5+ hour conversations with him.

You may want to consider staying with leaf springs as well. It is possible to get them to perform better than most think. This may be especially of interest to you because it is like SCCA SOLO CAM-T will be split into an unlimited and limited section coming up very soon. Being an experienced SCCA competitor, I'm sure you're aware of the Clubs' trend from open to tight controlling rules. I've heard the limited class will allow geometry, spring, damper, etc changes but will require the vehicle retain its stock suspension topology; for example, the vehicle must keep an SLA front and leaf spring rear suspension if it was originally equipped with one from the factory.

I find it very interesting that you did the Camaro Mustang Challenge Series. How was that? I am looking to get into more NASA/SCCA open road course racing, likely in the Time Trials series. Virtually all of my driving experience is with autocross so I'm always eager to learn from those who have been in road racing heavily.

Best Regards,

Ryan


Mark Savitske
Savitske Classic and Custom
610.381.6100
http://scandc.com/

Well - I'm not sure I would really go back to trying to run competitively at an autox series. It would be just for kicks now, so I don't care so much about classes.

NASA was a good group to run with out here in CA anyway. Really fun series - but that was 10 years ago, so who knows if that's still true. The idea is a good one - evenly matched cars that are more momentum cars but still make V8 noises. Really taught me how to drive fast being with faster drivers in similar cars. Good experience - but like anything you get too deep into - ends up being a pretty significant time and $$ sink.

Front end is Hotchis springs, sway bar, DSE UCA and stock lower with new bushings and U-joints.