Why build a pro-touring car when the new muscle cars are so good?

[stab6902]

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this topic. Here's the general formula for most pro-touring cars - start with an old car and then add:

Modern fuel injected motor (LSx, Coyote, new hemi)
T-56 transmission
Updated suspension geometry (new subframe, coilovers, 4 link, etc)
Big brakes
Big wheels/tires
Modern interior (seats, gages, steering wheel, etc)
Cosmetics (body/paint)


Guess what comes with all of the above, plus crash-worthiness, no rust, all the creature comforts, and a warranty? A modern Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger!

If we're being honest, to get an old car to perform close to the level of a new muscle car (and look somewhat presentable) requires at least twice the money, not to mention the time and expertise of getting everything to work together correctly.

In short, what we do makes no sense to my car guy buddies who aren't into the pro-touring scene. My justification is that I just like the old car look/character, enjoy tinkering, and like the challenge/reward of improving something. At the end of the day though, it's based on preference, not logic. Logically, if you have say $50k to spend (and you can play this game with any dollar amount), it makes a lot of sense to buy a 2013 1LE Camaro for $25k + a 68 Camaro driver for $25k. Alternatively, you could add $25k in parts to the 1968, and end up with 80% of the performance of the 2013 1LE. Thoughts?

[JustJohn]

Some of us have one of each.

[slimjim]

I have a similar argument to you, and my friends sound the same as yours. But I always wanted a 68 Camaro,(they're a whole lot rarer where I come from) however, had I known this would have cost me as much money, and take as much time, and I could do it all again, maybe I'd get a Porsche and call it a day.
The modern muscle cars have very little appeal to me.

[raustinss]

Style , plus anyone can go buy a new Camaro, not everyone can build one .

[ilikeike]

In any random pub and grub restaurant or business most people walk right past new modern hot rods to look at classic cars, I've watched people ignore a fairly new Lamborghini and C7 vette to look at a 67 Barracuda.
Classic cars are just cool-er and have more respect .

[andrewb70]

If all you care about is going fast, then a modern car makes a lot of sense. If you enjoy building cars and having something that is unique, then building an older car is the way to go.

Andrew

[ragtopdodge]

Many of us had these musclecars growing up in high school.

We have a fondness for old cars, but not the way they drive.

New cars are great for daily driving/long road trips, but have no soul.

Plus it's a hobby to work on old iron.

[andrewb70]

I drive my Cougar almost every day and I get compliments every time. I especially love it when kids stare, because the Cougar looks like a life-size Hotwheels car. I was in the Best Buy parking lot today, sitting in the car, talking on the phone, when a minivan pulls up. It was a mother and her two kids, boy and girl. The boy rolls down the window and his mouth is wide open. He jumps out of the van and start looking the car all over. I was still on the phone, so I couldn't pay too much attention to him. Then I got out of the car and told the kid he could sit in the driver's seat. I probably made his year. I am pretty sure a modern muscle car elicit the same response.

Andrew

[Chad-1stGen]

If you go too far down the logical path and ignore emotion you wouldn't buy a new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger either...

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

meh... doesn't look as cool.

plus why would I want a bloated version of what was made perfect from 196*-197*

[Jaymzz]

I have always like my cars to be different and fit my personality. I tried the new fast production cars and it is not the same to me as a car I built and can go romp on.

[ULTM8Z]

Style , plus anyone can go buy a new Camaro, not everyone can build one .

Exactly.

Sense of accomplishment, satisfaction of having built it myself, essentially one of a kind and doesn't blend into the crowd, etc... when I get a thumbs up or a complement, I can take credit for it since I built it myself as opposed to if I bought the car, the compliment wouldn't mean nearly as much.

I also didnt build the car to "compete" with new cars... and I get harrassed all the time by all sorts of new cars... Camaros, Mustangs, Ferraris, Mercedes, you name it.... but who gives a frick when these guys are driving a car that my mom could buy and most of them probably can't even find the hood latch to boot. its a pointless exercise... not too mention I'll get my car confiscated and probably crushed if we got caught. they go buy another one, but no way I'll build another one of my Camaro from scratch...

so they can go race eachother... whatever floats their boat.

I've had my Camaro for 28 years now and it's still always a treat to get behind the wheel. not sure that would be the case with new cars. maybe its because it gets more unique as time goes on.

any rate it's essentially the difference between car enthusiasts and hot rodders. they're not necessarily the same.

[67King]

The GTO was my first car, I've had it for nearly 30 years. So there's the emotional thing. I want it to be as safe as possible when driving it, so improve brakes and suspension. I want it to be reliable and enjoyabel, so add fuel injection (to the original engine - sorry, I detest LS swapping into anything not a Chevy), and an overdrive transmission. I won't drive it every day, and certainly not drive my kids in it a lot, so there's teh safety thing.

I've not been in a new-new Ponycar. But the ones from even 10 years ago were nothing to write home about. Horrible build quality and materials compared to at least some German cars. My SN95 at 20,000 miles had more wear showing and more rattles than my E60 does after 130,000 miles. The S197's I drove before I left Ford were being raved about.........compared to SN95's. But compared to most modern cars they were meh at best. Now, this was before teh COyote, which is a freakin' great engine.....

[Zspoiler]

Style and cost are probably two of the main reasons .

[Shawn0331]

Then I got out of the car and told the kid he could sit in the driver's seat. I probably made his year. I am pretty sure a modern muscle car elicit the same response.

Andrew

You didnt just make his year, you most likely changed his life. Most of us have a story like that from when we were kids that kick started the passion for automobiles. I gave a thumbs up to a guy riding his silver kawi zx6r when i was young and he threw up a wheelie... its was over after that. Last summer i was cruising on the highway saw a van full of kids drooling and pointing, i changed lanes over to them and threw up a nasty wheelie. I could see them just loosing their minds in there. I was grinning ear to ear because i knew exactly what they were thinking.

[stab6902]

Lots of good points guys! The old cars do have a sort of universal charm that almost everyone enjoys and respects.

[cornfedbill]

I would have to say, "closed head injury in my youth". There is no logic in it.

I personally appreciate those things I build much more than those things I buy. That way I have a part of me invested in the final product. For the same reason, I prefer not to send the work to a shop to be done. I only hire out what I absolutely cannot do myself.

That's why I do it.

That said, my build is significantly lower in cost than the typical Pro-Touring build because there is virtually no labor cost (other than my valuable time). I will have less cash into my car than the price of a new muscle car or sports car.

[CarlC]

If you go too far down the logical path and ignore emotion you wouldn't buy a new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger either...

Oh you just had to go down that logical rabbit hole......

[btmatt]

here is another: sentimental value.

1. Dad bought the Camaro when I was 14 (now 51);
2. I learned repair and hot rodding with him on that car and was able to do the same with my son (he is now 22, away from home). Not a day goes by where we don't talk about something on that car;
3. The car was plain scary to drive in initial condition and we targeted a more modern experience;

Definitely not money. For what we have spent on the car, we could have purchased a 5th gen Camaro many times over or even bought someone else's project.

Last, I don't think that i could ever get rid of it. Way to many memories and experiences (good and bad) tied up in that hunk of steel. Plus the pride in a job well done (not counting body and paint which still need completion ha).

[andrewb70]

You didnt just make his year, you most likely changed his life. Most of us have a story like that from when we were kids that kick started the passion for automobiles. I gave a thumbs up to a guy riding his silver kawi zx6r when i was young and he threw up a wheelie... its was over after that. Last summer i was cruising on the highway saw a van full of kids drooling and pointing, i changed lanes over to them and threw up a nasty wheelie. I could see them just loosing their minds in there. I was grinning ear to ear because i knew exactly what they were thinking.

Let's hope you are right. We certainly need more younger people in the hobby! I have another related story. Last year I was driving along The Strip in Tuscaloosa, and there was a school bus full of preteens going in the other direction. We were both stopped in traffic with the school bus right next to me. I look over and I see a dozen boys looking through the open window of the bus, many of them with their phones in hand, presumably snapping pictures and videos. So I flip a switch on my dash to turn on my 2-step and gave them a few seconds of fun engine noises. As soon as I did that, the whole bus exploded with cheers. It put a big smile on my face and theirs as well.

I can also relate to the sentimental stories. My GTO was my first car and I have owned it since I was 15. I am 48 now.

Andrew

[CSG]

You didnt just make his year, you most likely changed his life. Most of us have a story like that from when we were kids that kick started the passion for automobiles. I gave a thumbs up to a guy riding his silver kawi zx6r when i was young and he threw up a wheelie... its was over after that. Last summer i was cruising on the highway saw a van full of kids drooling and pointing, i changed lanes over to them and threw up a nasty wheelie. I could see them just loosing their minds in there. I was grinning ear to ear because i knew exactly what they were thinking.

I was around 10 when I saw a neighbor kid with a old ratted 68 camaro doing a crazy burnout. 35 years later I finally got a 1st gen and I really think that event imprinted my brain into wanting this car.

[SSLance]

Over half of the fun for me is using my own hands to make something better than it was before, the rest of the fun is when people come up to me after watching the car run and ask "How did you get that car to do THAT?"

[Turbo6inKY]

Guess what comes with all of the above, plus crash-worthiness, no rust, all the creature comforts, and a warranty? A modern Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger!

If we're being honest, to get an old car to perform close to the level of a new muscle car (and look somewhat presentable) requires at least twice the money, not to mention the time and expertise of getting everything to work together correctly.


Because we're masochists.

[c4racer2]

Logic has no place in this discussion! It's more about emotion.

My first car in high school was a '63 Impala that I started hot rodding at age 15 - my parents had the car since 1964. Now - I went to HS in the 80's, so this was an old car even then. There were only a few of us that drove classic hot rods to school - we were a small but proud bunch. Most of our peers drove Honda's and such. Were we cool? Not really. But it was just part of our DNA to drive a car like that - it's what made us happy. I drove that same car to college 750 miles away and made many a trip back and forth. Sometimes it didn't make it. But that was all part of the adventure. I learned a lot about cars and how to fix them during that time. And I kept that car for 19 years.

I got into late model muscle cars as soon as I graduated college - picking up a 1989 IROC with TPI 5.0 and 5-speed. Was a great car and eventually it ended up with a full roller cam super-Ram, Accel DFI 355, TKO 5-speed and 9" rear end. Moved on to hot rodded Corvettes and eventually on to BMW M3's, M5's, CTSV, Audi S4, etc. Always had a fun car in the mix - sometimes a race car even - ran CMC class with NASA for a few years with a 1983 Camaro. Had a few first gen Camaro's too - one with a late model LT1 and C5 based front clip with rack and pinion steering.

Put a couple kids through private HS and college, which left no budget for building hot rods, but I always had a fun car. C5, C6, CTSV, M5. Got into convertibles a bit with a Miata, then BMW 3 series and then finally a 2016 SS Camaro base with 6-speed. Fantastic car btw. Daily driver migrated to a Panamera S - an even more fantastic car and honestly more enjoyable to drive than the Camaro unless I really want the top down.

Got an itch again for something classic - the new Camaro is great - it's very fast (mid 12's), smooth, handles and brakes very well, fit and finish are very good - the transmission and clutch are great. But the car is just a bit boring to me. It doesn't have the edge I'm looking for.

So I started thinking about building a pro-touring car to replace it. Blueprint was 500hp+, manual trans w/ OD, smaller body style (F-body or 64-65 Chevelle), good handling and braking - good enough to take on a road course or autox course for fun from time to time.

I found the car to start with a few months ago and I've been slowly starting the build to match my vision - started with a car that was very well built and completely done cosmetically, plus had a very solid and well built 500hp 406 motor and 75% there on the suspension / chassis. So adding some finishing touches to make it work well - proper brakes, power steering, T56 transmission, etc. The car is already a joy to drive - there is just something about a classic muscle car. And it's incredible to have one that brings a similar handling envelope to the new Camaro. What I like most about it is the brute force of the motor - there is just nothing like a well tuned 500hp SBC with a holley DP in terms of instant throttle response. The raw power and acceleration is at a completely different level from the new Camaro. Some of it is just perception - but this car has run mid 11's, so it's quite a bit faster.

I'm undecided if I will end up selling the new one. I do like it too. Maybe I'll keep it. But I'm enjoying the classic so much I'm considering finding a convertible F-body or Chevelle to replace it. After-all I have the Porsche for the ultimate in a modern car anyway - it's already so much better than the Camaro, but that's expected considering the cost is many multiples!

[ULTM8Z]

Last, I don't think that i could ever get rid of it. Way to many memories and experiences (good and bad) tied up in that hunk of steel

yeah that's me too. my dad bought my Camaro new before I was born and then sold it to me in 1990. I literally grew up riding in, and then working on the car.

[Shawn0331]

I have another related story. Last year I was driving along The Strip in Tuscaloosa, and there was a school bus full of preteens going in the other direction. We were both stopped in traffic with the school bus right next to me. I look over and I see a dozen boys looking through the open window of the bus, many of them with their phones in hand, presumably snapping pictures and videos. So I flip a switch on my dash to turn on my 2-step and gave them a few seconds of fun engine noises. As soon as I did that, the whole bus exploded with cheers. It put a big smile on my face and theirs as well.

Andrew

Hahaaa that is awesome! Thats the stuff i like to hear. Hell even if i heard your car bouncing off some 2 step i would be running to see where it was coming from.

[Sbeck09]

I'll back up the biggest sentiment here as a younger guy. We're all enthusiasts. Even if we just bought a modern version from the showroom it isn't enough. We want to modify what's there. In that sense it actually makes perfect sense to start with a classic car. Lighter, better styling (don't even try to argue that), and heritage.

And to the point of price...for me it's cheaper since I can fabricate many things and don't have to pay a shop. Even if it's the same or more it's usually over a long period of time where you get a smile for every dollar when UPS knocks on the door with the next part to go on. Signing a contract will never feel that good.

[v8s only]

most people i talk to that drive newer muscle cars they say they would prefer a pro touring muscle car but its easy to finance new cars.

[badazz81z28]

Being honest with myself, I know our older cars are falling more and more behind the modern cars. From a dollar sense, $70k ZL1 stock will out-perform our $150k+ 69 Camaro. The older cars have more unique aspect than being better than new cars.

[Zspoiler]

My Car has never been sent to a professional shop, I either did it myself and or help from friends of whom I have helped on their projects I jus bought the materials, It helps you learn more about your project ,And is more enjoyable in the end,

[76TA]

I have zero interest in owing an emotionless, personality absent, heart stricken car that anyone with a credit score above 550 can lease/buy.

I'd much rather have the rare beast that's 80% of the performance of the former with an incalculable % of the alternatives' heart.

If you don't understand this, you're lying to yourself that you're a car guy. You're just a bystander in my opinion. Move along.

[79 Camaro]

I'm lucky enough to have three hot rods.
1. 98 Wrangler with a LS6/4L60E swap.
2. 68 C10 SWB with a built LS1/T56 combo.
3. 2014 Mustang GT 5.0/6 speed vert.

All three have their own personality.

The Jeep is my summer running around town vehicle. I plow snow with it in the winter. I did the swap myself. Cheap to insure since it's 20 years old.
The C10 is my summer time hot rod. Go on local cruises and car shows. Total frame off rebuild by me.
The Mustang is our long distance summer time cruiser. Bought it used. You can drive 750 miles in a day easy in that car. It's very safe with all the air bags and such. With the top down it's a fun car. Totally stock. Heaven forbid I get in a wreck with it and it's totaled I can just go and get another. It's getting a new shifter this winter.

None of these cars really make sense from a dollar point of view. Just plain fun to drive. The Mustang will go down in value. The Jeep and C10 would sell for more than I have in them. I like the build on the older stuff. Before I retired I worked a fairly high stress sales job and the build was a great stress reliever for me.

[jleclerc]

I don’t post much but this is a very good topic.
I personally have had both old muscle cars and trucks as well as all kinds of modern muscle cars, sports cars and exotics for the last 15 years. And I’m fortunate enough to have turn my passion into money by building old cars and trucks. To me the bottom line is the way I feel when I’m behind that particular car.
There is a raw mechanical connection in an old car that no matter what, you won’t get in a modern sports car.
The new cars are fun, and can be made stupid fast from the way they come from the factory for not a lot of money. Which makes is more practical to the regular joe with a bit of cash, cause they can pay someone to do it. And there are a ton, a ton of those EVERYWHERE! Guys like us with a decent set of tools and a bit of acquired knowledge can build an entire car from ground up, then go beat on those modern cars “built” by check books. Here another point that has been a good reason for me, a well built pro-touring 500-600hp $50,000 chevelle or Camaro (and others) can perform with or sometimes better than a lot of modern cars. And then in a few years the modern car will be worth way less than your $50k badass old car. that chevelle or camaro will only go up in price, most modern sports cars will only deppriciate. I love and drive both, but there is nothing like driving an old street vehicle with an earth shakin 800hp 540ci bbc. My two cents

[Gmachine1911]

I have zero interest in owing an emotionless, personality absent, heart stricken car that anyone with a credit score above 550 can lease/buy.

I'd much rather have the rare beast that's 80% of the performance of the former with an incalculable % of the alternatives' heart.

If you don't understand this, you're lying to yourself that you're a car guy. You're just a bystander in my opinion. Move along.

Preach it! I’d go as far as to say that the performance of a properly sorted PT car with quality parts is closer to 95% of a new car lacking only (in most cases, at least) ABS, airbags and traction control systems.

As far as the price tag, since economics is always in question, that new Corvette or Camaro will be worth a fraction of the selling price the moment you drive it off the dealership’s lot, whereas a quality built PT car with proper components will more likely get you back a greater percentage of your money if you sell it....Don’t underestimate what someone is willing to pay to relive their glory days or fulfill a childhood dream!

Now, flipping the coin, as a die hard muscle car guy, I’ve had to change my attitude towards the “new car contingency” because, by the nature of Hot Rodding, everyone has different tastes and comfort levels. One person’s comfort level with building is someone else’s nightmare and knowing your limitations is not a sign of weakness. At the end of the day, we’re all on the same team and hopefully working to keep the spirit alive but my gut reaction to the original question remains...if you’ve gotta ask, then you’ve already missed the point!

[minendrews68]

It's almost like if you have to ask this question you probably wouldn't understand anyway. Most of what's been said above says it to a T. It's driving my '68 Camaro and most everyone turns to look at it because there isn't that many of them. Late model muscle cars are everywhere and some factory somewhere built it.

[c4racer2]

What got me back into a classic and a PT build this time was really my Porsche Panamera. That car is so good it really points out the shortcoming of my late model muscle car - 2016 SS Camaro convertible. Both cars are modern sports car / GT cruisers and similar in general feel and intent - but the Porsche is just so much better at everything. Whereas the 71 Camaro is just a completely different driving experience. And yes - big part of that is the intense mechanical connection with the machine. Neither of my modern performance cars have much of that. A 911 is closer that way but I’ve owned one too And it doesn’t make a good daily or even weekend trip car for me where the Panamera is perfect for both. And I would rather have a 500+ HP pavement pounding hammer than a scalpel 911 as my “fun” car any day. Even late model corvette. Which I have also had several.

[parsonsj]

It's almost like if you have to ask this question you probably wouldn't understand anyway.Nicely put. Nothing about driving cars faster than needed for your job and daily life really makes any sense. We're all just big kids playing with toys.

[ULTM8Z]

I was at Costco this morning throwing a new set of tires on my mother in law's car.

this thread came to mind when I watched a guy in some decked out late model Challenger pull up and ask one of the workers there to check his tire pressure.

either his warning light came on unexpectedly while on the road, or he simply doesnt even know how to use a tire pressure gauge.... color me cynical, but my money is on the latter...

[c4racer2]

I was at Costco this morning throwing a new set of tires on my mother in law's car.

this thread came to mind when I watched a guy in some decked out late model Challenger pull up and ask one of the workers there to check his tire pressure.

either his warning light came on unexpectedly while on the road, or he simply doesnt even know how to use a tire pressure gauge.... color me cynical, but my money is on the latter...

My guess is warning light came on. Common this time of year when it gets colder - pressures drop. Classic.
Here is a related tip - if you have kids, teach them how to do this stuff! how to change oil, remove a tire, check pressures etc.
Before they leave for college and end up moving away - I had to explain how to take tire pressure readings remotely for my daughter recently.
For whatever reason the 1995 BMW she drove in college never went low (also didn't have a warning light so she wouldn't have known) or maybe she came home more often and I was always on top of it. Now she has a new Mazda with a warning light but without pressure readings. But she was able to buy her own pressure gauge and learn how to use it and learn how to air up tires at a gas station with my help remotely. Would have been so much easier in person. Live and learn!

She also has learned how expensive it can be for a shop to maintain a car - even a brand new one - ended up paying $80 or something for an oil change that I could have done for $30 in a half hour. I did show her how to do that - but that also requires some tools and things she doesn't have. Oh well - more incentive for her to come home more often :-)

[GoodysGotaCuda]

If I was after raw performance and safety, I'd be a Hellcat owner....however, I am not. New cars have absolutely no soul and are hardly unique, no matter how modified they are.

My 'Cuda has enough power to be fun, the bones [and quirks] of a classic car and just a hint of "you might die" when driving it hard...which adds to the excitement. I will likely buy a Hellcat or hi-po Mustang for my next daily driver, however, it will NOT replace my classic car. I don't care how fast it is.

[lobudget]

After picking up a new Corvette I've started re-thinking my plans for the project cars. I agree with those who say the modern performance cars lack a soul but when the only original part of a fist gen Camaro is the roof skin how much of its soul remains?

It was pretty simple for those my age. I got my first performance car in 1973. For a long time each year's new cars seemed a little worse than the year so I kept modifying stuff from the 60's. The C5 Corvette was the first car that made me feel like modified muscle cars were facing a tough challenge from a new showroom offering.

Not too long ago I thought 400 rwhp was a healthy street car. I think I understand how Flathead guys felt in the 60's. Things could be worse, could be no new cars with over 200 HP and European style restrictions on modifying old stuff.

[pro86tourn]

I can certainly say for myself personally owning both the 2017 gt350 and an 1987 monte carlo ss... as much as the gt350 (not stock) is absolutely INSANE and an unbelievable track car on road courses and gets tons of looks on the street it simply lacks the emotion from the Monte.

The Monte was my first car at 14 I remember my dad picking me up from school in Canada and driving down to Maryland to pick it up. I am 29 now and I learned everything I know about cars on that car. Im going LS now when the car had a built 327 but im choosing to stay carbed as i like the smell, the temperamental behaviour, the crap gas milage etc... the car has the emotion, something about taking the ttops off and starting it up. sure it doesnt brake on a dime or handle like it will snap my neck but its purely fun!

Both types of cars surely have their place but if i had to sell one ... it would be the gt350. New tech always comes out and something will be better, faster, better looking. The Monte will always be the classic.. old school ride that made me love American Cars.

[c4racer2]

Heh. Some of us are old enough to remember when your 1987 Monte was the modern muscle car ! Ha!

[Steve Chryssos]

Heh. Some of us are old enough to remember when your 1987 Monte was the modern muscle car ! Ha!

Agreed. They are the same, as far as I am concerned -- 67 Camaro, 87 Monte and 2017 Camaro. Speed, handling, aesthetic and other upgrades are available for all generations of muscle cars.
Steve

[BMR Sales]

in the end, your Pro-Touring car is always going to be worth something, whether finished or not.

a New Camaro/Mustang/Challenger will be on Buy Here Car Lots in 5 years or less, the Warranty is over and it is just another Rode Hard, put away Wet car.

[AU Doc]

For my part, there are no cars (in my price range) that have looked really good since the early 70's. There are cars that are interesting for one reason or another, but when it comes down to spending my time and money on one, I just can't see it for anything other than something built before about 1972.

But everyone has different tastes, so i can appreciate the 2010 Camaro that someone has kept immaculate and has added all sorts of customizations. Taste in cars is a lot like taste in..... uhmmm... coffee. Everybody likes theirs a little different :)

[chuckd71]

Because I need a hobby.

[Zachalanche]

I started my pro-touring project when the bar was much lower, and I thought I could build something better. Now I'm just throwing good money after bad. But hey as long as the new cars keep going up in power, the engine swap options just get better.

[79 Camaro]

I think it's interesting that cars of the 80's are now considered classic. I've never owned one but the Monte SS is one of my favorites along with the turbo Regals.. I did drive 3 hours to go look at a Monte SS that was rust free and very straight. Owner failed to mention it had been t-boned and repaired really badly.

Other thing is when those "new" cars are 5 years old, out of warranty and on the used car lot they are about one third the price of new. They are still fast and a great start for modifications. Our used 14 Mustang GT vert with 17,000 miles was $22,000. That's about $15,000 less than new. Still has the drive train warranty thru 2019. It's a fun car that has a late model soul and that's not a bad thing. Can't even begin to build a 60's-70's hot rod for that kind of money.

[c4racer2]

you can get a rusted out shell as a project starting point for that kind of money!

[cornfedbill]

After picking up a new Corvette I've started re-thinking my plans for the project cars. I agree with those who say the modern performance cars lack a soul but when the only original part of a fist gen Camaro is the roof skin how much of its soul remains?

It was pretty simple for those my age. I got my first performance car in 1973. For a long time each year's new cars seemed a little worse than the year so I kept modifying stuff from the 60's. The C5 Corvette was the first car that made me feel like modified muscle cars were facing a tough challenge from a new showroom offering.

Not too long ago I thought 400 rwhp was a healthy street car. I think I understand how Flathead guys felt in the 60's. Things could be worse, could be no new cars with over 200 HP and European style restrictions on modifying old stuff.

After competing twice in the Sandhills Open Road Challenge against a plethora of modern Corvettes and Camaros, I see your point. The stock Vettes ran the course effortlessly at some pretty high speeds, and even did very well in the mile shootout. The fastest car in the mile shootout was a warmed over C6 Z06 with nitrous. It was much less expensive than a full pro-touring First Gen Camaro.

I am tempted to jump ship too and to move to a modern car. But my heart is still with a homemade classic.

[c4racer2]

I've owned a bunch of them. Very capable cars - very fast on a track. But somewhat boring. To me. YMMV.

[andrewb70]

you can get a rusted out shell as a project starting point for that kind of money!

You can get very nice cars that are not rusty and would make a great starting point for a project. It just won't be a Camaro.

Andrew

[Shawn0331]

Honestly a lot of the modern muscle cars in the next handful of years will probably be the lowest ever you'll be able to get them (in great condition that is). Crazy how cheap i have seen some high millage gen5 camaros, c5 vettes, and first year coyote stangs going for lately. How many of you guys were driving Monte's, Fox bodies, and 3rd gen camaros in the 80's and 90's and thought they weren't going to be worth anything. Good condition they seem to go for good money these days, in some cases more than they were new. Whats really crazy is to see how much it has changed for the Japanese market, 10 years ago you could by low mileage Acura NSX's for 20k now if you want one in that price range its got 200K miles.

[79-TA]

I think the short answer as to "why" is to make the car functional and enjoyable. If you don't use it, you won't enjoy it as much.

Since 2005, I've made sure to have a second car to spare my Trans Am from the wear and tear of daily driving. The unintended consequence is that I end up enjoying the daily driver as much or more than my Trans Am just from using the daily more often. This applies to every car I have daily driven from my Miata, to my '05 Mustang, to the '87 Mustang I used to have, and even an '88 Olds Cutlass Ciera.

My Trans Am has long suffered from heating issues and different transmission problems. I should have thrown in a manual 10 years ago when I first rebuilt the engine. This would help reliability and the mediocre 2.73:1 compromise rear gear ratio. My car still isn't very pro or touring.



Here are some of my thoughts on other ideas mentioned in this thread:

"It's about emotion"

This is an interesting one, but I think it needs to be clarified that this is usually limited to platform/chassis/body selection. When choosing specific parts, much of the pro-touring community is very objective and function-oriented. We just choose to initially limit ourselves with outdated and (relatively) expensive platforms.

"Other cars have no soul" or "get no attention"

Cars from any era have soul and are aesthetically pleasing. Older cars are benefited by being overwhelmingly surrounded by newer, differently-styled cars that serve to make the old muscle car stick out. I remember getting 1st gen Camaro fatigue for the first time in 2011 after seeing so many of them at events and shows.

As far as "breaking necks", goes, it depends on who your audience is. My rumbly '93 RX-7 gets way more attention than my Trans Am. The FD3S is a much rarer car by an order of magnitude, has its own great styling, and also marks a unique high point in automotive history.

My 2005 Mustang is still fairly current and as a result blends into traffic. I still love the way the early S197's look and they're a great performance bargain. With 150,000 made in '05, it's not a rare car, but I don't think that makes it so common as to be "soulless." "Soul" shouldn't come only after some kind of survivor status has been achieved.

[jimco84x]

Soul and something to do. The soul part cant be said enough. I bought a 2012 Boss 302 because it felt like it had some soul compared to all the other newish cars I have driven. I got rid of it because I it lacked the character of my 91 RX7 Turbo. Sure, it was marginally faster, but bigger, heavier, less connected. I ended up replacing it with a 69 Corvette that is full of character for less than I sold the Boss for. It's not perfect, but a nice driver with gorgeous paint, a 5 spd and Sniper EFI. Crazy thing is that I wanted a First Gen Camaro again, but the Corvette was actually cheaper...go figure.

FWIW, my wife likes the old vette too. and she loves the side pipes :)

[c4racer2]

Actually I was mostly joking. I got a very well done car more than half-way built to pro-touring for under $20K, and it was a Camaro! second gen tho - not first gen.

[stab6902]

I think the short answer as to "why" is to make the car functional and enjoyable. If you don't use it, you won't enjoy it as much.

I think you hit the nail on the head. If I can't safely and somewhat comfortably (especially important since my family is often in the car) drive my 60's/early 70's car in everyday rush hour traffic, I know I won't use it. I don't go "hardcore" pro-touring like many on here do on my own cars, but I do upgrade the suspension/brakes/wheels/tires so I can stop as well as the person texting in the new Nissan in front of me.

As you get into the "hardcore" pro-touring world (roll cages, rowdy motors, 315 front tires, etc), you start cutting down on functionality again, which isn't for me.

[Bugzilla]

I have had my Bug for around 6 years now. I am tired of working on it. I race it, then work on it. Race it again, work on it. I dont mean I break it every time (close to it though) but I still have to give everything a once over. In my Evo IX, I race it and change the oil. Race it again, change some more oil. Its nice. New cars handle better to start with and that means you dont have to go extra crazy with full on race car parts to make it handle good and ride bad. So to me, I like newer cars. Just got to choose the right one to stand out from the crowd.

[shelteredchevelle]

I've had a bunch of hot rods over the years, but most everything was kinda daily driver, fix it as I go stuff. I decided to build something we could hop in and drive anywhere comfy like. My wife had one criteria which was it had to be a 2 pedal car, no clutch. ):... We found a sweet 2012 V and I haven't regretted a minute of it and will prolly keep it for a while. Low 10's with the A/C on ain't too shabby, BUT there isn't nearly the character or fun factor that my Chevelle has.(or will have) It is simply two different worlds, both great in their own ways for sure, but me being old school, there is just nothing like rowing a shifter behind a good ole big block. By the time I'm done with the Chevelle, correction- by the time it's driveable again, I will have done about 60% of the work and have a metric ton of bucks into it, but it will return it to me 10 fold. I haven't been so psyched about a car in a long ass time.

[Vimes]

I'm doing it because nobody makes what I want, and I WILL have what I want if it means putting it together to the last bolt. I'd buy it if I could because deep down, if I'm really honest with myself, I'm a lazy son of a bugger. Nah, let's be honest, my laziness isn't all that deep.

What I really want is a pickup truck that causes organ damage on a WOT launch, tops out over the speed of sound, pulls 20Gs on a skid pad and run Nuremberg in about 32 seconds. Sadly, I'll never have this mystical truck, but I can certainly strive. My more realistic goal is, my brother has a 2013 Camaro that he's dropping a supercharged LS engine somewhere over 400CID, and I'd like him to see my tail lights at the drag strip. Going touring style because drag strips are not a regular part of my life, but corners are.

[ho428]

I like Pro Tour builds, the only drawback I see is the costs to do a high end build, even doing it DIY.
For daily driving I have a Pontiac Solstice Coupe that for modern driving beats any of my old cars for dependability and driver comfort and it looks cool and unique too, but lacks the 60's style, and while I do have three '68 Firebirds none are what you'd call Pro Tour.
One is a Vintage Road Race car, pretty old school with a few upgrades. An absolute blast to race.
One is the first car I ever bought while in HS back in 1976. 4 bolt RA-V block, stroked to 433, Ported Iron heads, hyd roller cam, dual quads, M-22 tranny, 12 bolt, just restored it and kept the same concept as when I first bought it. It was and is basically a day two hot rod street car.

The third is an all original base model Convertible I've had since 1985, drove it for years but it's now in dire need of restoration. You'd think this would be the easy one to decide on but it's been the hardest.
As a base model OHC-6, 3 speed, it drives like crap, has no power, drum brakes, manual steering, 14" wheels, open diff. The real value is that it's a fairly rust free 68 convertible. Restored it would be cool but it's would still drive like crap and still not be worth much. I know if I were to sell it the next owner would yank the drivetrain and upgrade it. If it were a Sprint-6 it might be worth preserving but a base model? No.
So, down into the PT rabbit hole I go into my first Pro Tour build. In every way it will be a better car, it will lose some of it's soul but not all and be a much better car to drive and enjoy for years to come.

But, either a Pontiac V8 or OHC Sprint-6 engine will go in, there will be no LS or SBC swap into any of my Pontiacs, I do draw the line there. Like some say they walk past the hot new car to look at the classic, I walk past any LS'd classic to get to something with a traditional engine. The engine is the heart and soul of a car regardless of what you do underneath. It's probably a generational thing for me, but an LS engine just doesn't look right in a 60's-70's Classic.
To each there own as it's their car to do their way, this is my way.

[c4racer2]

Huh. I am looking at a 68 convertible myself. Considering replacing my 2016 SS Camaro convertible. I had various plans running through my head for it including LS:T56. But it does have a fresh 350 that could probably be a 400hp motor with heads and a cam for not much money. I would go more restomod than PT for this one. But interesting to hear your thoughts as a long time Pontiac guy. This would be my first ever. Always had Chevys.

[ULTM8Z]

I know I've had guys in late model muscle tell me they wish they could build a muscle car like mine but lacked the ability... and that the late model was the closest thing they could get to it.

My car doesn't really look PT from the outside (which was my intent), so all they really see at the stop light is a 71 Camaro with different wheels.... but my guess is if that's how they feel about "just" a classic muscle car, it'd be even more so for a real PT car that's on the scale of what you guys are doing on this site and Lateral g (which pretty much makes my PT job look like a rice burner :worship:)

[Greg Weld]

I couldn’t read every response to this very valid question ——— but for me - the answer would be - because one is a car and one is a hobby.... for many of us it’s (the old car) the brick and the people we meet and hang with is the glue. It’s about a common bond with like minded people. New cars could arguably have that “The Porsche Club” comes to mind - but the bond with people that actually dreamed up their ride and the mods and the work and blood and sweat and tears not to mention countless hours.... that just isn’t the same as the “new car” club.

[JustinFBird]

For me I would have to say it would be pride in bringing life to an old build my dad started with my mom before I was even a thought.

From when I was just a little kid probably like 6 or 8 always seeing a blue car with a blanket over the top of it with boxes on it, dad would only take it out every once in awhile. He would always tell me I would cry in the back seat because it was to I Loud. I’m 26 now working in the oil fields building this car the way I seen in the magazines (pro-touring) I always wanted to be that kid daily driving a classic muscle car, one day at a time I’m getting closer and every time my dad comes over and sees it I can tell he’s happy because it’s not just sitting.... well technically it is but you know what I’m saying. I actually ended up loosing a girlfriend of 2 years because I was spending to much time on the car. Long story short it’s not a modest muscle car and everyone from grandmas to little kids love classic muscle car 159699

[1972Mach1]

If you have to ask, you don't get it.......

[JustJohn]

If you have to ask, you don't get it.......

Yup. I just traded in my M6 coupe after about a year. Awesome car and arguably everything you'd try to get in a mega dollar pro-touring build.

Everything except character.

[therobski]

I don't play golf, don't own a boat, don't have a safe full of guns and other collectables. It's been my hobby and stress relief for many years. Although as like some of you, I told my wife it's the last build, this one is because the age factor is setting in. This can be and is to me an expensive hobby (most hobbys are anyway). Can't believe how much money can be spent on golf alone! I have the option to retire next year, if that happens the money printer slows down a lot! The 64 F-85 PT should be in the DFW area streets next year and will see some of you guys on cruises like Power Tour etc. My wife says it's going to be our RV to travel in. In addition to all that, we plan on downsizing next year too and there goes the shop with the lift. The days of laying under a car that's on jack stands and doing bench presses with a transmission have come and gone. And we still have the 63 Corvette that needs attention.

[Alponcho]

Five reasons. First, I've always been into classic Pontiacs, and the thought of being able to have one that performs more like a modern car really appeals to me. Second, I enjoy the process of building the car, as well as the challenge of staying true to the original plan of maintaining a factory vibe and keeping it Pontiac powered. Third, I like that the outcome will be familiar yet completely unique--a reflection of 7-8 years of decisions. Fourth, I'm a hobbyist, so the project has necessarily involved other people with whom I've grown a lot closer. Finally, even though I'm a business school professor, I apparently don't understand the concept of sunk costs.

[GoodysGotaCuda]

If you have to ask, you don't get it.......

I agree.

[HotWheelz]

I love new muscle cars! They offer great technology we can transplant into my 1966 Nova SS Build thread!

[therobski]

Hotwheelz-I wish I had developed the fabrication skills you have to build cars like yours. I thought perhaps when I do retire from work-clinical chemistry labs sales-maybe go to work in custom build fab shop. There's several here in the DFW area. Give me something to do and learn...

[nokones]

Because it is fun to make an old car new again and beat up on the new muscle cars. Buying a new muscle car and just driving it is not the same as building a car and enjoying the benefits of the fruit of your labor.

[TQuillen]

All I've ever worked on is drag cars. I wanted a hot rod of my own, and it occurred to me that I could enjoy a car a lot more if I could drive it on the street, take it to the autocross, and maybe do some Friday night test and tune at the dragstrip, or maybe even a standing mile event. Obviously, my time and budget constraints mean that it would do all of those things fairly well, but not be biased towards any one area. But isn't that what Pro Touring is? Granted, some cars do nearly everything VERY well, while some, like mine, are destined to perhaps be lower on the performance totem pole, but certainly no less gratifying. The other thing is that a pretty average guy, with his pretty average buddies, can build a pretty nice car that's a whole lot of fun. And at the same time, make a whole lot of new friends and get to see some pretty out of this world craftsmanship in this genre of car.

Pro Touring has a lot going for it.

Travis

[andrewb70]

All I've ever worked on is drag cars. I wanted a hot rod of my own, and it occurred to me that I could enjoy a car a lot more if I could drive it on the street, take it to the autocross, and maybe do some Friday night test and tune at the dragstrip, or maybe even a standing mile event. Obviously, my time and budget constraints mean that it would do all of those things fairly well, but not be biased towards any one area. But isn't that what Pro Touring is? Granted, some cars do nearly everything VERY well, while some, like mine, are destined to perhaps be lower on the performance totem pole, but certainly no less gratifying. The other thing is that a pretty average guy, with his pretty average buddies, can build a pretty nice car that's a whole lot of fun. And at the same time, make a whole lot of new friends and get to see some pretty out of this world craftsmanship in this genre of car.

Pro Touring has a lot going for it.

Travis

Travis,

I couldn't agree more. I drive my Cougar everyday and enjoy it very much.

Andrew

[drummerdad]

Just my opinion, but most (not all) of the new stuff is ugly. It might be easier to buy a new car, but then you have a production car, just like the other 5 guys in your neighborhood. Then you have to try and modify it while making car payments and insurance payments. My trucks might not be able to outrun the new stuff, but even in the horrible shape they are in, I have to keep signs in them that say "NOT FOR SALE". I get 4 or 5 offers a week. I get a "nice car" every once in awhile with the charger, but the classic trucks draw a crowd.

[68Cuda440]

The old cars are raw and unrefined, which in and of itself is a draw.

The new muscle cars are like cartoon caricatures of the real thing or a designer trying to capture the essence or what you remember the car looks like. But they are not the real thing, they are too refined.

I want EFI for its obvious benefits, I want the T-56 so I can drive it on the highway, I want the better brakes, better seat, and etcetera.

Plus I bought it for $350 30+ years ago. We go back a ways. We did cruise nights together "back in the day". My best friend Dave rode shotgun on occasion and he is no longer around. So yes, definitely some sentimental value as well.

[sheck44]

Because, beside any modern car NOBODY will be looking at the other car ... 8)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/02/46917019902_049cd23d25_h-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2etTZsf)IMG_6761 (https://flic.kr/p/2etTZsf) by Steve Heck (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155790242@N07/), on Flickr

[HotWheelz]

Hotwheelz-I wish I had developed the fabrication skills you have to build cars like yours. I thought perhaps when I do retire from work-clinical chemistry labs sales-maybe go to work in custom build fab shop. There's several here in the DFW area. Give me something to do and learn...

A member here on pro-touring, Mike is building my car. He has a vision and then puts that vision into action.

i saw his 66 Nova SS and pester him to buy his 66 Nova SS and that didn't happen. I almost bought a TURD and mike went to pick it up and turned away much to my relief and gratitude and he found this Blue Gem and the rest is now my 1966 Nova SS build thread.

Mike has the skills!

[dhutton]

Hotwheelz-I wish I had developed the fabrication skills you have to build cars like yours. I thought perhaps when I do retire from work-clinical chemistry labs sales-maybe go to work in custom build fab shop. There's several here in the DFW area. Give me something to do and learn...

That’s what I tried. An eye opening experience to say the least. $15 per hour and no benefits while the shop owner charges $95 per hour. Milk the customer dry charging a flat rate for shop materials and then use every $2 flap disc etc well past its useful life while charging the customer $95 per hour. Builds drag on forever.

I’m sure this isn’t the case in every shop but that’s what I saw.

Don

[pittpens24]

For me it was simple - Yes I could have gone out and bought a new Dodge Demon for the money I have in mine, but after a month or two it would just be another car that no one cares about going down the road. Now with my '68 Camaro, every time I start it I feel like a little kid all over again, It turns everyone's head from the roar of the 572 under the hood, I get compliments on the sound, look, stance, unique paint scheme and man is it fun to drive!!!!
Some people do it because they are trying to keep up with the times, some because they want to be a cool kid on the block, some because they have money to burn. I built my pro-tour for me to enjoy - period!

[TheJDMan]

Because, I can look at a pic like this and say I built that car.

161045

[minendrews68]

Because, I can look at a pic like this and say I built that car.

161045

Amen Steve!

[andrewb70]

I would love to own a new ZL1 Camaro, but the truth is that I can't afford it. However, I can afford to build a bitchen Cougar and will eventually build other cars. Plus I get the satisfaction of "built not bought."

Andrew

[HotWheelz]

Hotwheelz-I wish I had developed the fabrication skills you have to build cars like yours. I thought perhaps when I do retire from work-clinical chemistry labs sales-maybe go to work in custom build fab shop. There's several here in the DFW area. Give me something to do and learn...


A member here on pro-touring, Mike is building my car. He has a vision and then puts that vision into action.

i saw his 66 Nova SS and pester him to buy his 66 Nova SS and that didn't happen. I almost bought a TURD and mike went to pick it up and turned away much to my relief and gratitude and he found this Blue Gem and the rest is now my 1966 Nova SS build thread.

Mike has the skills!


That’s what I tried. An eye opening experience to say the least. $15 per hour and no benefits while the shop owner charges $95 per hour. Milk the customer dry charging a flat rate for shop materials and then use every $2 flap disc etc well past its useful life while charging the customer $95 per hour. Builds drag on forever.

I’m sure this isn’t the case in every shop but that’s what I saw.

Don

I, hotwheelz am not building this car, Mike is building this car.

Mike is conscientious, fast and fair. He likes building cars. I will not disclose details but will pass on his contact information. He built the 66 patina Lemans with a picture under the St. Louis arch. It might be in the classifieds archive here. He also has a kick ass black and orange 66 Nova SS under reconstruction as well. A link to another car he built on youtube: “1962 Buick Skylark Street Cruiser”. https://youtu.be/7J45ETRS_rk .

Mike’s new shop is up and he will be installing hoists and the cement floor this spring when the weather permits. Once the floor is in he would like to purchase a reasonable CNC machining center to fab up parts. It is his ultimate goal to build cars for clients.

[GPRaceWorks]

For me it boils down to 3 simple things

1. Do it to spend time with my kids

2. Do it because I love to work with my hands and when someone asks, you can say "Yes I did that"

3. It turns my wife on...lol and that works for me!