6.0 LS Build

[pro86tourn]

Hi guys,

I have been MIA for some time as my project was placed on hold for a number of reasons which has lead me to now needing to get the car back on the road to enjoy once again! The car has been stored and hasnt seen sun light since 2013!

I found a 2004 Denali with 387000km but the truck runs GREAT, no knocks, no oil burning and pulls hard. (transmission even shifts great)

I can get the truck for less than $1000 complete, pull the engine etc. scrap the truck and even sell the rims and brand new tires/transmission to recoup costs while using the engine.

I am looking to have a good solid performer the car is a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with a 5 speed (I would like to find a t-56). I would like to keep the car carbed to save on costs and reduce headaches.

I know there is a million ways to build this engine but I am looking for suggestions from the great minds on this website to chime in and help developing a parts list to make some good bang for buck HP/TQ.

[andrewb70]

The first thing to ask is what is your budget and how much HP (realistically) do you want to make?

Andrew

[pro86tourn]

I would like to keep the budget to as limited as possible without compromising the use of quality parts/reliability. I would be happy with 450+ HP would be nice to get over the 500 mark but the car will be only street driven for now.

[andrewb70]

I would like to keep the budget to as limited as possible without compromising the use of quality parts/reliability. I would be happy with 450+ HP would be nice to get over the 500 mark but the car will be only street driven for now.

Cheap....fast....reliable....pick two...LOL

If it is running well, I would be tempted to just put in a new oil pump and cam and let her eat...I would also reconsider going with a carb. One of the great benefits of the LS engines is the excellent EFI. You already have the ECU/TAC/pedal. Just order a standalone harness from a reputable vendor and make it EFI. For a 87 Monte, you can use a stock GN tank with a simple pump upgrade. A DW200 will be plenty. Walbro 255 is good too, but I have found them to be loud.

Andrew

[pro86tourn]

Cheap....fast....reliable....pick two...LOL

If it is running well, I would be tempted to just put in a new oil pump and cam and let her eat...I would also reconsider going with a carb. One of the great benefits of the LS engines is the excellent EFI. You already have the ECU/TAC/pedal. Just order a standalone harness from a reputable vendor and make it EFI. For a 87 Monte, you can use a stock GN tank with a simple pump upgrade. A DW200 will be plenty. Walbro 255 is good too, but I have found them to be loud.


Andrew

Hahaha yes well. I dont want to say I have an endless budget I have a 2017 gt350 I use for track day fun but I want to get the monte back on the road! I would say 2500-3500 to spend on the engine would be great. FI makes me nervous is the setup quite easy in terms of wiring but certainly better MPG.

I am open to all advice very excited for getting this project back underway!

[andrewb70]

Hahaha yes well. I dont want to say I have an endless budget I have a 2017 gt350 I use for track day fun but I want to get the monte back on the road! I would say 2500-3500 to spend on the engine would be great. FI makes me nervous is the setup quite easy in terms of wiring but certainly better MPG.

I am open to all advice very excited for getting this project back underway!

The hook up for a standalone harness is pretty simple. Generally you need to connect constant power, switched power, ground, and connect the flue pump relay to the in-tank pump. That's about it.

In addition to a new oil pump and upgraded cam, you should add springs and pushrods and a new LS2 style timing chain. If you want to get crazy, then new lifters are a good idea, but that requires head removal, in which case you will need new head bolts and new head gaskets.

Andrew

[pro86tourn]

The hook up for a standalone harness is pretty simple. Generally you need to connect constant power, switched power, ground, and connect the flue pump relay to the in-tank pump. That's about it.

In addition to a new oil pump and upgraded cam, you should add springs and pushrods and a new LS2 style timing chain. If you want to get crazy, then new lifters are a good idea, but that requires head removal, in which case you will need new head bolts and new head gaskets.

Andrew

Seems easy enough, no need to swap injectors? or intake? I was worried about the ease of tuning or if I could get away with avoiding costly dyno time. Any recommendations on a quality harness?

Thanks again:)

[andrewb70]

Seems easy enough, no need to swap injectors? or intake? I was worried about the ease of tuning or if I could get away with avoiding costly dyno time. Any recommendations on a quality harness?

Thanks again:)

When you consider the cost of having someone else do the tuning, then it starts to make sense to get a system that is easily tuned yourself. I would consider the Holley HP system. Learn how to tune and never be a slave to some tuning "expert."

At this point it would be worthwhile to switch to a nicer looking LS2 intake and a 4 bolt cable throttle body.

Andrew

[pro86tourn]

Still fighting with the decision of FI/Carbed. FI route certainly seems to cost more.. can anyone chime in as far as rough MPG differences with the two setups?

The car will be driven less than 2-3000 km a season

[andrewb70]

The EFI is not just for mileage...it offers much better driveability.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

The EFI is not just for mileage...it offers much better driveability.

Andrew

Oh yes...I remember those carb days...Cold morning in New Mexico...my 78 Camaro would fire right up. A few minutes later I would pull out of the drive way and at the nearest stop sign coming to a stop...Dies....start it back it back up, get on the gas and it bogs slightly...
When I bought my 70, I had to feather the gas pedal every time I came to a stop! When it warmed up it was great, but still....

I will never use a carb again. The drivability and reliability are enough to spend the money on it. I know dyno tuning can be expensive, but its also fun. Think of it as paying to have fun and seeing how much HP it has with the tuning piece being a bonus. I had my car tuned at DynoJet here in town for only $500. With my 78 Camaro...I paid that much for a headache of a new Demon Carb.

[badazz81z28]

Hahaha yes well. I dont want to say I have an endless budget I have a 2017 gt350 I use for track day fun but I want to get the monte back on the road! I would say 2500-3500 to spend on the engine would be great. FI makes me nervous is the setup quite easy in terms of wiring but certainly better MPG.

I am open to all advice very excited for getting this project back underway!

It only seems intimidating if you haven't done it. Its quite easier than you think it is (the computer does all the work). If I can do it...anyone can. I grew up with absolutely no auto mechanic background and everything I have done to my car was learned by reading these post on the forums and my Haynes manual. Go Fuel Injection, you won't regret it.

[pro86tourn]

It only seems intimidating if you haven't done it. Its quite easier than you think it is (the computer does all the work). If I can do it...anyone can. I grew up with absolutely no auto mechanic background and everything I have done to my car was learned by reading these post on the forums and my Haynes manual. Go Fuel Injection, you won't regret it.

I built my last engine the 327 from ground up when i was 16, i did the manual transmission install from auto when i was 19, I am very mechanically inclined but when It comes to tuning... thats a whole new world! LOL

but... I guess the way to go is keeping the car FI i certainly thought going the carbed route would be the fasted cheapest way to get the car back on the road. Would it be easiest to find a GN fuel tank or just utilize the stock tank and add an external pump? My goal would be to make 450+ HP NA, I just want a fun car to take out like old times and have the pro touring look with better handling/breaking and a nice sounding engine for weekend rides.

Is it possible to utilize the stock harness/ecu from the truck? or is it much easer to purchase one from a vendor? id hate to spend over $1000 just on wiring (but it is what it is)

My thoughts were either freshen up the bottom end adding new bearings, rings then having the heads decked, new valves installed and springs with cam/intake but I will save money where i can.

Total goal is to have the car driving again for $3500 or less! Any parts ideas would be awesome and I will add pictures once i start the process!

Thanks again guys!

[AU Doc]

So I can (almost) never resist being the devil's advocate. While I am firmly in the EFI camp, and it would be hard to go back to a carb, I think you are correct that a carb would be a quicker, simpler, and likely cheaper way to get the motor running.

LS swaps aren't as simple as they're made out to be, or at least they're not if you're on a budget and it's your first time. You can do them with junkyard parts, but you're going to be exchanging a lot of time to do it. I suppose in this case the time and money savings would come down to the fuel system (I don't know what the factory fuel pressure is for that car), wiring harness, ECM, and tuning. You'll burn through half your budget for a self-tuning EFI. It's a GREAT investment! But it's also not cheap.

A carburetor will run perfectly fine if it's well maintained, and you stay on top of the adjustments. EFI is more of a set it once and forget it sort of deal and it runs the same if it's 5 degrees or 105 degrees.

It sounds like it's really going to come down to what your priorities are. I think you'll be leaving quite a bit on the table in terms of drive ability and ease of maintenance if you switch to a carb, but I think you'll be up and driving sooner and cheaper if you do swap to a carb. Going EFI is more of a hassle in the short term, but definitely has advantages once you've done the swap.

[pro86tourn]

So I can (almost) never resist being the devil's advocate. While I am firmly in the EFI camp, and it would be hard to go back to a carb, I think you are correct that a carb would be a quicker, simpler, and likely cheaper way to get the motor running.

LS swaps aren't as simple as they're made out to be, or at least they're not if you're on a budget and it's your first time. You can do them with junkyard parts, but you're going to be exchanging a lot of time to do it. I suppose in this case the time and money savings would come down to the fuel system (I don't know what the factory fuel pressure is for that car), wiring harness, ECM, and tuning. You'll burn through half your budget for a self-tuning EFI. It's a GREAT investment! But it's also not cheap.

A carburetor will run perfectly fine if it's well maintained, and you stay on top of the adjustments. EFI is more of a set it once and forget it sort of deal and it runs the same if it's 5 degrees or 105 degrees.

It sounds like it's really going to come down to what your priorities are. I think you'll be leaving quite a bit on the table in terms of drive ability and ease of maintenance if you switch to a carb, but I think you'll be up and driving sooner and cheaper if you do swap to a carb. Going EFI is more of a hassle in the short term, but definitely has advantages once you've done the swap.

These were my thoughts exactly! I know it may sound crazy but part of the reason i love the old school cars is the theater, the messing around and not perfect reliability. I like waiting for the car to warm up, pumping the gas prior to start up.. smelling raw gas. I know it wont be maintenance free, I know there will be headaches but its all part of the theater and love for the classic car with the modern touch. I have my GT350 purpose built for track days and i run 8500rpm all day long on road courses with the AC on and drive it home at night.... I dont want two of the same cars, I want to make good power, cheap as possible BUT I will not sacrifice quality of parts.

My goal is 450-500+ Crank HP staying NA ...although many people are pushing to towards EFI ... i am certainly hesitant. (Remember the car hasnt seen day light since 2013, I am just trying to get her back on the road for some fun drives!)

[andrewb70]

With a carb you will need a carb intake and ignition box.

Andrew

[AU Doc]

You remind me of a close friend that I suspect will scramble to buy the last carburetor ever produced, and for many of the same reasons you mention :-)

It's your car, so build it the way you'll get the most enjoyment out of it!

[pro86tourn]

You remind me of a close friend that I suspect will scramble to buy the last carburetor ever produced, and for many of the same reasons you mention :-)

It's your car, so build it the way you'll get the most enjoyment out of it!

Thats funny! Any recommendations on parts lists I should look into? Anyone have a setup they built and had good success with?

[btmatt]

my first Camaro LS sounds lots like what you want to build:
1. junkyard LQ9
2. Ported 243 heads
3. Comp 234/[email protected], .602/.605 lift and associated valvetrain;
4. MSD box (Gen 3);
5. Edelbrock Victor Jr. and Holley HP 750 carb;

the motor was bolted to tremec magnum, 3.50 rear and 27" tall rear tire. The motor ran very hard and had an awesome idle. Butt dyno told me the combo was somewhere between 450-500 crank. We took it to the dyno and blew it up before we made a complete pull.

Instead of rebuilding, we bought LS3 and installed a TSP stage 4 cam and put in the car. I still have all my old combo stuff if you are interested. Matt

[KnightmareZ]

Either or, don't forget oil pan, motor mounts, oil pump, drive shaft, front accessories, gauges, headers, exhaust etc
AKA $3500 comes real quick

[pro86tourn]

Either or, don't forget oil pan, motor mounts, oil pump, drive shaft, front accessories, gauges, headers, exhaust etc
AKA $3500 comes real quick

I knew about oil pan, motor mounts, oil pump, I can have the drive shaft amended if needed, gauges I have from current setup, headers i will need.

Whats the best front accessories to use for the buck? Stock ones wont work? or corvette ones?

[andrewb70]

I knew about oil pan, motor mounts, oil pump, I can have the drive shaft amended if needed, gauges I have from current setup, headers i will need.

Whats the best front accessories to use for the buck? Stock ones wont work? or corvette ones?

For mounts, the best option is what is offered by Holley. You will also need the proper Holley pan. I already told you, the Holley "high mount" system uses the stock truck alternator that you can use with the truck spacing, or what I prefer, at the Corvette spacing. A stock Corvette set-up puts the alternator at the same place, but uses the more expensive Corvette alternator. I don't know how else to make ti any simpler for you...

Andrew

[pro86tourn]

For mounts, the best option is what is offered by Holley. You will also need the proper Holley pan. I already told you, the Holley "high mount" system uses the stock truck alternator that you can use with the truck spacing, or what I prefer, at the Corvette spacing. A stock Corvette set-up puts the alternator at the same place, but uses the more expensive Corvette alternator. I don't know how else to make ti any simpler for you...

Andrew

Thanks Andrew i appreciate all the advice! Sorry to be a pain but when you say spacing i assume that is the distance the front accessories are from the block?

[andrewb70]

Thanks Andrew i appreciate all the advice! Sorry to be a pain but when you say spacing i assume that is the distance the front accessories are from the block?

Correct. Go to the Holley website and download their accessory selection guide. It contains a lot of very useful information about spacing, balancers, and various versions of water pumps.

[pro86tourn]

Project update - Picked up the 2004 Denali today! negotiated down to $750 CAD. Truck runs great - Time to start building a parts list :) .... so excited to get this car on the road this spring after many years

[andrewb70]

Project update - Picked up the 2004 Denali today! negotiated down to $750 CAD. Truck runs great - Time to start building a parts list :) .... so excited to get this car on the road this spring after many years

You should start a build thread.

Andrew

[KnightmareZ]

That's not a bad buy.
If you wanted to rework the harness yourself, here's an excellent resource. http://www.lt1swap.com/2000harness.htm

[badazz81z28]

Here's an option https://www.ebay.com/itm/283259311662?fbclid=IwAR0m9GnTT5UYlszehkphFaY1VZ4s RqD92FZmJoFXHk2oCcYRhlKwBRbFfkM

Probably the best seller online you can trust...straight from Holley Performance.

[pro86tourn]

Here's an option https://www.ebay.com/itm/283259311662?fbclid=IwAR0m9GnTT5UYlszehkphFaY1VZ4s RqD92FZmJoFXHk2oCcYRhlKwBRbFfkM

Probably the best seller online you can trust...straight from Holley Performance.

Very nice engine!

So heres where Im at:

-Stock bottom end, just clean it up and let er' eat OR Pull the bottom end apart send to machine shop, new bearings etc put back together stock but freshened up w/ ARP bolts
-Freshen up stock heads with new springs OR Deck the stock heads new springs/valves OR L92 heads
-Need to pick valve train I would like to go with a cam that offers a nice chop but I am horrible at selecting cams (this would depend on the head choice but any advice helps)
-Intake vic Jr or something else (will be only street driven dont want to give away too much overall TQ)
-Carb choice holly or would you guys recommend something different / CFM?

- - - Updated - - -


That's not a bad buy.
If you wanted to rework the harness yourself, here's an excellent resource. http://www.lt1swap.com/2000harness.htm

Thank you!!!!! if I end up going EFI i will certainly use this!!

[pro86tourn]

Picture of the donor Denali and the Monte before she left for storage in 2013

[KnightmareZ]

I wouldn't fool with the 317 heads. You are at 9.4:1 CR with the 71cc heads. I'd go with the L92 heads and knock 30 off. I'd probably run a 230/230 on a 112* with 2* advance ground in... XER lobes.

[79 Camaro]

You might consider L92 heads. Fairly inexpensive. Will need better springs. Also if you have the time pull the pan and check the bearing clearances. Doesn't cost much to do that. New rear main seal. I wouldn't rework a stock harness. Buy a harness and computer from one of vendors on this site. I haven't done a Monte LS swap but I would guess most use an Fbody pan and front end accessories.

[pro86tourn]

I wouldn't fool with the 317 heads. You are at 9.4:1 CR with the 71cc heads. I'd go with the L92 heads and knock 30 off. I'd probably run a 230/230 on a 112* with 2* advance ground in... XER lobes.

Would it be possible to knock 30 off the stock heads or run a thinner gasket? Looks like the stock heads will make more TQ down low and the L92 better up top. I might sound stupid but I am not sure what 112* with 2* advance ground in would be, custom cam? (I am horrible with spec'n engine parts)

[pro86tourn]

You might consider L92 heads. Fairly inexpensive. Will need better springs. Also if you have the time pull the pan and check the bearing clearances. Doesn't cost much to do that. New rear main seal. I wouldn't rework a stock harness. Buy a harness and computer from one of vendors on this site. I haven't done a Monte LS swap but I would guess most use an Fbody pan and front end accessories.

I certainly have been considering the idea of the L92 heads.Not sure if its better to buy used or buy a new set and swap the springs. Anything else that would be required or they can drop right on?

I will have to pull the pan to replace for the swap an I can check out the bottom end then.

Extremely excited, I am just not a pro at spec'n the cam/head combo that would work best.

[79 Camaro]

The L92 heads are a direct bolt on for the 6.0. Buddy of mine has a 6.0 in a 71 Nova. L92 heads. 225I/230E 114CL .600 lift cam. He did 410 RWHP on the dyno. By new. Never know what the used heads need. If you have the cash do a trunion rocker arm upgrade. Or go on Corvette Forums and look for used LS3 heads. LS3 heads have better light weight valves. The Corvette guys seem to much lower mileage stuff.

I really like spending other peoples money!

[pro86tourn]

The L92 heads are a direct bolt on for the 6.0. Buddy of mine has a 6.0 in a 71 Nova. L92 heads. 225I/230E 114CL .600 lift cam. He did 410 RWHP on the dyno. By new. Never know what the used heads need. If you have the cash do a trunion rocker arm upgrade. Or go on Corvette Forums and look for used LS3 heads. LS3 heads have better light weight valves. The Corvette guys seem to much lower mileage stuff.

I really like spending other peoples money!

hahaha! hey I welcome it, more help the better. Always good to learn from others mistakes/successes. 410 to the wheels wow! After researching it looks like the trunnion upgrade is a must. Guess we will have to search around and see if I can find a set of heads or just keep what I have for now while I continue the search!

For a cam would you guys stick with a COMP?

[KnightmareZ]

Would it be possible to knock 30 off the stock heads or run a thinner gasket? Looks like the stock heads will make more TQ down low and the L92 better up top. I might sound stupid but I am not sure what 112* with 2* advance ground in would be, custom cam? (I am horrible with spec'n engine parts)

Personally I'd rather shave 30 off the heads. The issue with the LQ4 is the dished pistons and the 70cc chambers keeping your static CR low. The 112 is the LSA lobe separation angle and the 2* is the advance. This means all of your valve events will happen 2* sooner. Here's a great starting point if you want to learn about camshafts with lots of links inside.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/327734-cam-guide.html
I also noticed Texas Speed has their 228R camshaft on sale for $299.

[pro86tourn]

Personally I'd rather shave 30 off the heads. The issue with the LQ4 is the dished pistons and the 70cc chambers keeping your static CR low. The 112 is the LSA lobe separation angle and the 2* is the advance. This means all of your valve events will happen 2* sooner. Here's a great starting point if you want to learn about camshafts with lots of links inside.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/327734-cam-guide.html
I also noticed Texas Speed has their 228R camshaft on sale for $299.

Great read, thank you!

[68Formula]

After researching it looks like the trunnion upgrade is a must.

Definitely. An aftermarket cam will have faster ramp rates, higher lift, and extend the rpm working range, so it's worth the extra insurance.

[68Formula]

Which reminds me, if you change to L92 heads, you're also going to need offset rocker arms. So either make sure they come with or factor in the cost of buying some. And the L92 heads will require a different intake, throttle body and fuel rail (assuming you're keeping the FI).

If you have your LQ4 heads redone and ported by a reputable company like WCCH, they'll outflow the L92 heads but keep the bottom torque. Of course, they still wouldn't be as strong on the top as ported L92 heads, but really depends on what you want out the engine, and how much you plan to spend.

The thinner gasket will probably allow you to pick up a few tenths of compression. I believe the pistons are slightly out of the hole at TDC. Make sure to you accurate calipers, then measure each piston to deck distance for all 8 cylinders. Take the worst case (highest above deck), then add .038" to that value, and that's the minimum compressed gasket thickness you'd want with a stock bottom end LQ4. The nice part is, the thinner gasket will also improve your quench distance, which will make more power (on top of power from the small bump in compression) and reduce potential pre-ignition. Shaving the heads doesn't change the quench, just the chamber volume.

Moving to the camshaft, there's a good budget one from the new Summit Pro LS line called Truck Stage 3 (SUM-8713). It'll have a nice lope at idle, but should still be easy for the experience tuner to dial in. It'll pull up to 6500rpm, but have decent torque down low. Plus it works with factory GM 12499224 springs (LS6) which check in around $75. Ported factory cathedral heads typically peak at about .550" to .575" lift, so more than that really won't produce much more peak HP, and will hurt torque below that. So considering the area under the power curve, it's not worth the trade-off to go higher on the lift.

[pro86tourn]

Update - Did a compression test today and I was very happy and surprised at how well it turned out! Highest was 179 lowest was 169/170, with most being in the 75ish range for such a high KM engine I cant complain.

With these numbers I am just going to replace the valve train, maybe the bearings in the bottom end and let the engine eat.

The cam I am looking to run Comp LS custom hydraulic roller, Xtreme Energy LSG Lobe 13119 int and 13121 exhaust. Intake measures 283' @ 0.002/234'@0.050 0.602" lift with stock rocker. Exhaust measures 291' @ 0.002/242'@0.050 0.605" lift with stock rocker. The cam was ground with 112' split and 4' advanced. How do you guys think that will be in the engine with a victor Jr intake/carb

[badazz81z28]

Just my opinion...how did you come up with that cam? I would avoid shaving .030 off the heads AND running a thin head gasket. You will impact PTV clearance and possibly cause issues for the intake fitment . I don’t know the science behind cams and compression so I copy proven combos. If I were you...I would call Texas Speed and tell them what you are looking for. They will set you up with the right cam to match your desires. The engine being carb versus EFI is an important piece of info when choosing a cam.

There’s a handful of parts you should swap out too while you’re in there...lifters, trays, pushrods, cam retaining plate, timing chain...Texas Speed can advise.

[pro86tourn]

Just my opinion...how did you come up with that cam? I would avoid shaving .030 off the heads AND running a thin head gasket. You will impact PTV clearance and possibly cause issues for the intake fitment . I don’t know the science behind cams and compression so I copy proven combos. If I were you...I would call Texas Speed and tell them what you are looking for. They will set you up with the right cam to match your desires. The engine being carb versus EFI is an important piece of info when choosing a cam.

There’s a handful of parts you should swap out too while you’re in there...lifters, trays, pushrods, cam retaining plate, timing chain...Texas Speed can advise.

Buying cam off a fellow member. I will be swapping the pushrods, timing chain, springs, valve seals. Stock lifters should be changed? or will they work?

[79 Camaro]

LS7 lifters aren't expensive. I'd buy new lifter trays also. That cam is going to be a bit lopey. Are you going manual or auto trans? If auto you should consider some level of stall converter. And maybe 3:73 gears? Be interesting to see how much vacuum you will get with that cam. May affect your brake booster.

[KnightmareZ]

Too much cam for an engine with 9.4:1 SCR in my opinion. Been crunching some numbers and that only nets a 7.2:1 DCR. You need to be high 7s low 8s or you are leaving way too much on the table. Can you provide more info on your ride and plans? Transmission, rear end gear, weight, tire size, which heads and gaskets, shaving or no?

[79 Camaro]

If you decide to go L92 or LS3 heads check out the parts for sale section. There is a LS3 intake with fuel rails and injectors. $350 is a great price. The LS3 intake has 42lb injectors. I don't know the seller just FYI.

[pro86tourn]

LS7 lifters aren't expensive. I'd buy new lifter trays also. That cam is going to be a bit lopey. Are you going manual or auto trans? If auto you should consider some level of stall converter. And maybe 3:73 gears? Be interesting to see how much vacuum you will get with that cam. May affect your brake booster.

In that case ill buy new lifters/trays. I will being going manual trans & 3:73

[pro86tourn]

Too much cam for an engine with 9.4:1 SCR in my opinion. Been crunching some numbers and that only nets a 7.2:1 DCR. You need to be high 7s low 8s or you are leaving way too much on the table. Can you provide more info on your ride and plans? Transmission, rear end gear, weight, tire size, which heads and gaskets, shaving or no?

Im not sure what those numbers mean you listed but the car has a T5 now will be switching to a T56, rear is 3:73, weight not sure stock, rims are 16 but will be eventually going 18.

Id like to keep the 317 heads was considering shaving heads/thinner gasket. Will consider other heads if it helps ! any advice on best bang for buck

[79 Camaro]

Sell the 317 heads to the turbo guys unless you are headed that direction.

[pro86tourn]

Sell the 317 heads to the turbo guys unless you are headed that direction.

Im staying NA. Which heads would you use I have been hearing so many people say keep stock heads they fine, use L92 but they make power up high, use 5.3 heads bla bla bla no one seems to have an exact answer

[79 Camaro]

That's the trouble there are way to many good choices. I had a 73 Z28 with a L92 out of a 2010 Silverado. Added a Texas Speed cam. 225I/230E .600 lift. 114 CL.It ran great thru out the power range. Down low plenty of torque. Ran great in the upper rpms. It had a TKO 600 with 3:73 gears. Did the Power Tour a few years ago and on the back roads at 60 mph it did 25 plus mpg.

I'm a fan of the L92/LS3 heads. With the right piston / head combo you can easily run 10.0-10.5 CR on 91 octane and a mild tune. We can only get 91 octane around here.

As far as milling the 317 heads. Talk to the guys on LS1 Tech forums. I'm sure they can help.

I've been down the "too big" cam road. Sounds cool at first but after a short time it gets old.

[KnightmareZ]

Im not sure what those numbers mean you listed but the car has a T5 now will be switching to a T56, rear is 3:73, weight not sure stock, rims are 16 but will be eventually going 18.

Id like to keep the 317 heads was considering shaving heads/thinner gasket. Will consider other heads if it helps ! any advice on best bang for buck

7.2:1 is your DCR with that cam
DCR Dynamic compression ratio takes into account the intake valve closing angle as well as all the other variables for your static compression ratio.
SCR Static Compression ratio- Is a ratio that assumes the intake valve is closed at BDC and takes bore, stroke, head volume, deck height and compressed gasket thickness
Generally, we like to see around 8 to 8.5:1 when running pump gas on a street setup.
Here's what I would do if I were in your situation
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wis-pts523as/overview/ along with all new bearings and ARP bolts. I'd run the 317s with a .04 cometic and see how you like it. Later on you could send those heads off to get worked or sell them and get something else. This would put you at 10.9:1 SCR and a DCR of 8.33:1 using the cam you spoke of earlier.

[pro86tourn]

7.2:1 is your DCR with that cam
DCR Dynamic compression ratio takes into account the intake valve closing angle as well as all the other variables for your static compression ratio.
SCR Static Compression ratio- Is a ratio that assumes the intake valve is closed at BDC and takes bore, stroke, head volume, deck height and compressed gasket thickness
Generally, we like to see around 8 to 8.5:1 when running pump gas on a street setup.
Here's what I would do if I were in your situation
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wis-pts523as/overview/ along with all new bearings and ARP bolts. I'd run the 317s with a .04 cometic and see how you like it. Later on you could send those heads off to get worked or sell them and get something else. This would put you at 10.9:1 SCR and a DCR of 8.33:1 using the cam you spoke of earlier.

I was hoping to leave the bottom end intact... I guess running a thinner gasket and shaving the heads wont get me where i need to be? Leaving the bottom end in tact which head choice would be best? I guess I would have to weigh the cost of pistons vrs/heads

[KnightmareZ]

Shaving 30 off the 317s should knock them down to around 66ccs. That should give you around 10:1 SCR. That still only gives you a DCR of 7.66:1 with said cam. You can make this work, you are just leaving a whole lot on the table with that cam though.

[KnightmareZ]

A 224/228 using Comp XER lobes with a 112 separation and 4* advance would get you to a DCR of 8:1 and would still rip up top. That's about as aggressive as Id go in this setup. You'd also have quite a bit of lope at 51* overlap, I forgot to ask about how you wanted it to idle.

[KnightmareZ]

Did my reply to you come through on DM? I'm not seeing it on my end...

[68Formula]

A 224/228 using Comp XER lobes with a 112 separation and 4* advance would get you to a DCR of 8:1 and would still rip up top. That's about as aggressive as Id go in this setup. You'd also have quite a bit of lope at 51* overlap, I forgot to ask about how you wanted it to idle.

Agreed. He's going to have fun getting the tune right with the cam he listed. It's going to be doggy on the low end, and pull no better on the top (maybe even worse, without adding a lot more compression and/or more cubic inches displacement), than the one you suggest listed above. Basically sacrificing street manners with no added benefits over choosing the matching cam for the rest of the setup.

[68Formula]

The cam I am looking to run Comp LS custom hydraulic roller, Xtreme Energy LSG Lobe 13119 int and 13121 exhaust. Intake measures 283' @ 0.002/234'@0.050 0.602" lift with stock rocker. Exhaust measures 291' @ 0.002/242'@0.050 0.605" lift with stock rocker. The cam was ground with 112' split and 4' advanced. How do you guys think that will be in the engine with a victor Jr intake/carb

Too large for the current engine setup (displacement, heads, compression), even considering weight, gears, and transmission type. And you'd be better off with the Edelbrock RPM intake over the Victor Jr.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/20-ls1-intake-manifolds-tested/

[pro86tourn]

Too large for the current engine setup (displacement, heads, compression), even considering weight, gears, and transmission type. And you'd be better off with the Edelbrock RPM intake over the Victor Jr.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/20-ls1-intake-manifolds-tested/

Okay so I guess even if i shaved the heads .30 and ran a thinner gasket I still would be shy on the compression required. So question is I go to which cam? If i maintain the stock setup. I want a lumpy idle with good power.

2nd option is keep stock heads and swap pistons or swap the head to increase compression and keep the cam suggested above.

[68Formula]

Okay so I guess even if i shaved the heads .30 and ran a thinner gasket I still would be shy on the compression required. So question is I go to which cam? If i maintain the stock setup. I want a lumpy idle with good power.

2nd option is keep stock heads and swap pistons or swap the head to increase compression and keep the cam suggested above.

Either the one I suggested in one of my earlier posts or the custom one that KnightmareZ specified. They have virtually the same overlap, so idle will be same (aggressive, but won't require jacking up the idle speed just to keep it alive). The XER ramp rates are pretty aggressive, so you'll get more valvetrain noise from the quick valve closure, and shorter long term durability for valve seat wear and cam lobe wear compared to the Summit. The extra lift also means a stiffer valvespring (like PAC1218) , so also a little quicker wear on the cam, and higher cost (the Summit can use the GM LS6 factory springs). The XER will probably put a few more HP on the very top of the RPM range (like 5500-6500) with a little less torque below that. Won't make much difference unless you change over to CNC ported L92 heads or aftermarket.

[KnightmareZ]

It's all about valve events and how long you keep that valve open to let as much air in and how much you are able to get out on the exhaust side
Actually the cam you speak of would have more overlap 54.5* vs 51*
Should lope a very little bit more, nothing noticeable
As far as low rpm torque the XER Lobes would close at 64.5* ABDC vs summits at 65* ABDC the lower the closing angle the higher the DCR and cylinder pressure.
But as far as numbers are concerned, trivial and almost dead equal until we start talking about the area between where that valve opens, the ramp rate, the lift and then where the valve closes.
Now when you envision the summit lobe coming off the seat at 274 at .004 and 222 at .050 with a .545 lift vs 273 at .004 and 224 @ .050 with .581 lift its pretty obvious which one took in the most air and will have the most cylinder pressure down low. More air entering the chamber will generate higher cylinder pressures given they are closing at the same time. Or in this case the XER even sooner. This means more torque down low. You spell it out like the only gains would be 5500 to 6500 with loss of torque down low. LOL The XER lobe in this example would drag this soft summit lobe throughout the powerband.

[68Formula]

Actually the cam you speak of would have more overlap 54.5* vs 51*
Should lope a very little bit more, nothing noticeable
As far as low rpm torque the XER Lobes would close at 64.5* ABDC vs summits at 65* ABDC the lower the closing angle the higher the DCR and cylinder pressure.

Which is pretty much what I said:

They have virtually the same overlap, so idle will be same.


But as far as numbers are concerned, trivial and almost dead equal
Which is why I wasn't worried about a couple degrees overlap difference.



Now when you envision the summit lobe coming off the seat at 274 at .004 and 222 at .050 with a .545 lift vs 273 at .004 and 224 @ .050 with .581 lift its pretty obvious which one took in the most air and will have the most cylinder pressure down low. More air entering the chamber will generate higher cylinder pressures given they are closing at the same time. Or in this case the XER even sooner. This means more torque down low.

Between the earlier intake centerline (107 versus 108) and the 2 degrees shorter duration @ 0.50" lift on the Summit, I expected a slight increase in torque down low. With the stock head flow and the fact that you're almost at peak flow by .550" lift, the tiny bit lift difference @ low speeds isn't significant enough to impact cylinder filling. Which is why I wrote:


The XER will probably put a few more HP on the very top of the RPM range (like 5500-6500) with a little less torque below that. Won't make much difference unless you change over to CNC ported L92 heads or aftermarket.

You seem to think I was being hard on the XER cam, when really I considered them virtually equal (only minor differences depending where you were in the rpm band).

However, since you came back with a very strong statement of:

The XER lobe in this example would drag this soft summit lobe throughout the powerband.
I decided to toss it into DynoSim and see that that said. I already had the LQ4 modeled previously anyway, and it's been validated against published real world dyno data with various camshafts, so it's reasonable accurate.

Using both the 0.50" and advertised duration, stock heads, factory intake, compression, and long tube headers, they were within 1-2 ft-lbs torque difference below 4000rpm. So basically the same. No slight edge to the Summit, but the XER doesn't "drag it" either. The curves are basically on top of each other.

Now above 4000rpm, you can see the power curves begin to separate with the XER on top, but still talking single digit horsepower with only 6hp difference at the peak. So the XER isn't dragging it on the top end either (even above 6k). I attribute that to the added exhaust duration of the Summit. The 317s aren't as efficient on the exhaust side, and on naturally aspirated engine it it helps quite a bit.

Again, CNC ported heads would make a bigger gap between the two (starting from about peak torque rpm up to peak hp rpm). Or maybe if you were using L92 heads with their more efficient exhaust ports, you might see a little more separation.

[pro86tourn]

Which is pretty much what I said:



Which is why I wasn't worried about a couple degrees overlap difference.




Between the earlier intake centerline (107 versus 108) and the 2 degrees shorter duration @ 0.50" lift on the Summit, I expected a slight increase in torque down low. With the stock head flow and the fact that you're almost at peak flow by .550" lift, the tiny bit lift difference @ low speeds isn't significant enough to impact cylinder filling. Which is why I wrote:



You seem to think I was being hard on the XER cam, when really I considered them virtually equal (only minor differences depending where you were in the rpm band).

However, since you came back with a very strong statement of:

I decided to toss it into DynoSim and see that that said. I already had the LQ4 modeled previously anyway, and it's been validated against published real world dyno data with various camshafts, so it's reasonable accurate.

Using both the 0.50" and advertised duration, stock heads, factory intake, compression, and long tube headers, they were within 1-2 ft-lbs torque difference below 4000rpm. So basically the same. No slight edge to the Summit, but the XER doesn't "drag it" either. The curves are basically on top of each other.

Now above 4000rpm, you can see the power curves begin to separate with the XER on top, but still talking single digit horsepower with only 6hp difference at the peak. So the XER isn't dragging it on the top end either (even above 6k). I attribute that to the added exhaust duration of the Summit. The 317s aren't as efficient on the exhaust side, and on naturally aspirated engine it it helps quite a bit.

Again, CNC ported heads would make a bigger gap between the two (starting from about peak torque rpm up to peak hp rpm). Or maybe if you were using L92 heads with their more efficient exhaust ports, you might see a little more separation.

Which dyno sim do you use? the software seems interesting... maybe I could use such tech to see how certain parts would impact the build.

[pro86tourn]

Finally got the engine out and on the stand.. now time to clean it up ... any of you guys have tips on the easiest way to degrease this thing !!

[79 Camaro]

Since you are going to disassemble to check everything just unbolt parts and send to the machine shop hot tank. Stuff like coils and other more delicate parts clean by hand with degreaser.

[KnightmareZ]

Which is pretty much what I said:



Which is why I wasn't worried about a couple degrees overlap difference.




Between the earlier intake centerline (107 versus 108) and the 2 degrees shorter duration @ 0.50" lift on the Summit, I expected a slight increase in torque down low. With the stock head flow and the fact that you're almost at peak flow by .550" lift, the tiny bit lift difference @ low speeds isn't significant enough to impact cylinder filling. Which is why I wrote:



You seem to think I was being hard on the XER cam, when really I considered them virtually equal (only minor differences depending where you were in the rpm band).

However, since you came back with a very strong statement of:

I decided to toss it into DynoSim and see that that said. I already had the LQ4 modeled previously anyway, and it's been validated against published real world dyno data with various camshafts, so it's reasonable accurate.

Using both the 0.50" and advertised duration, stock heads, factory intake, compression, and long tube headers, they were within 1-2 ft-lbs torque difference below 4000rpm. So basically the same. No slight edge to the Summit, but the XER doesn't "drag it" either. The curves are basically on top of each other.

Now above 4000rpm, you can see the power curves begin to separate with the XER on top, but still talking single digit horsepower with only 6hp difference at the peak. So the XER isn't dragging it on the top end either (even above 6k). I attribute that to the added exhaust duration of the Summit. The 317s aren't as efficient on the exhaust side, and on naturally aspirated engine it it helps quite a bit.

Again, CNC ported heads would make a bigger gap between the two (starting from about peak torque rpm up to peak hp rpm). Or maybe if you were using L92 heads with their more efficient exhaust ports, you might see a little more separation.

On overlap, I was agreeing with you. Maybe I came off wrong LOL.
On the other, I am speaking about the area under the curve. Or how much area there is seat to seat. There's a point when even a numerically smaller lobe at .050 will take in as much or even more charge as larger lobe profiles with less under the curve. This charge, is what it is, once the IV closes. The one with the most will build the most cylinder pressure with the same IVC angle. As far as ICLs, those should be a byproduct of a well thought out set of VEs. But generally speaking, yes. the sooner the ICL the better it performs lower in the RPMs given the same lobes/ same setup. Again you have to keep the VE's in mind as well as the lobe profiles when cutting a cam.

[btmatt]

Tape it up real good and use some purple power and power washer. Awesome stuff

[pro86tourn]

Tape it up real good and use some purple power and power washer. Awesome stuff

I will try that!

Where do you lad's get your engine dress up stuff? Valve covers, cam overs, lifter covers? Summit? Jegs?

[68Formula]

Which dyno sim do you use? the software seems interesting... maybe I could use such tech to see how certain parts would impact the build.

DynoSim5. It's not the most sophisticated out there, but it's ok for the price. Best to start with similar build combinations, to get the models close to real world results, and then you can change aspects as a comparison.

[pro86tourn]

DynoSim5. It's not the most sophisticated out there, but it's ok for the price. Best to start with similar build combinations, to get the models close to real world results, and then you can change aspects as a comparison.

Awesome ! I will check it out!

Next on list is... oil pan, mounts, timing chain, headers.. would you guys reuse water pump/harmonic balancer? Recommendations?

[pro86tourn]

So I decided on using the 243 heads (ported) just waiting for them to return next week from the machine shop.

Next I need the parts to assemble... can anyone offer any advice on what to get ..

Timing chain
ARP?
Gaskets?
Etc etc etc ‘’

So many options out there makes it quite interesting!!!