Experienced Opinions on CPP 2nd Gen Spindles??

[Darin Jordan]

I've been searching this site fairly extensively, and can't seem to find anything regarding recent experienced reviews of the CPP 2nd Gen Spindle (CP30014).

The reviews on Summit seem to be favorable. The threads I have read here are all pretty old, and some seem to get pretty heated, so hopefully I'm not ostracizing myself by asking this question.

I'm doing a '79 Trans-Am and was planning on using PTFB control Arms and steering system, but want a spindle that was cleaner and C5 based, to use on a modified stock subframe, so this spindle system is appealing.

If you have any experience with this spindle setup and would care to comment, I'd appreciate hearing your opinions.

Thanks,

[BonzoHansen]

I know some folks using them without issue. Buy them with no hubs and get quality hubs elsewhere.

The only real advantage is the sealed bearings. although I know some folks think better of stock style bearings.

[F-Body International]

I’m a “heresay” guy on this subject. If you search Facebook, there’s some people running them and I haven’t heard any real issues myself.

The negative theory about this setup has to do with wheel offset. Late model Vettes and F-Body have deep backspacing (less prying load on the bearing assembly). With that being said, Corvette and late F-Body do have issues with this style bearing failure. I’ve heard some people even lose their wheel completely due to the whole hub breaking apart in racing conditions.

To keep in mind, your stock 2nd gen has two (inner and outer) bearings on your stock spindle. Wheel offset on those cars are typically 0. This means that there is more “wheel” outside of the mounting surface. By having 0 or negative wheel offset in turns and lateral weight transfer, it creates more of a prying load on the spindle than a late model Vette/F-Body would see. The stock style 2nd gen does well at staying together due to having the inner and outer bearings.

Go for whatever you feel happy with. CPP is cool for using stock style Vette parts but the cost will add up if you’re building out a spindle and not going with their complete kit. PTFB AX kit which uses your stock spindle is pricey up front but awesome! That PTFB Kit is going to be lighter due to the aluminum hub and bolt-on outer rotor.

Another option to consider is the 1LE conversion which uses 3rd gen 12” rotors and standard GM calipers (like your ‘79).

[dontlifttoshift]

Not hearsay, I actually had a set.

They are fine for drivers, and autoxers and even some light track duty. The hubs are essentially bullet proof but there is some spindle flex and there is a small variation in the location of the steering arm between the right and left sides.

There is approximately a 1" difference in the backspacing between the Corvette, 7" on a 9.5, and my car which was 6" on a 9.5. We made enough autocross runs to cord 3 sets of tires with flipping and rotation and the hubs felt as good at the end as the day I put them on.

The money really does end up being a toss up unless you buy a package from CPP......I do not recommend that. I prefer the sealed hubs from a maintenance perspective.

[BonzoHansen]

I was under the impression the cpp spindles did not impact offset. Is that not true?

[dontlifttoshift]

Why can't I edit that to clarify?

Yeah, that was sort of an incomplete thought. I was comparing the offset on a stock corvette to the offset on my 2nd gen with the same width wheels. I have no idea if the CPP spindles move the wheel mount surface from stock.

[Darin Jordan]

Thanks, Guys. I now have these spindles and ordered some quality SKF C7 Spindles. Will work from there.

[badazz81z28]

I've been searching this site fairly extensively, and can't seem to find anything regarding recent experienced reviews of the CPP 2nd Gen Spindle (CP30014).

The reviews on Summit seem to be favorable. The threads I have read here are all pretty old, and some seem to get pretty heated, so hopefully I'm not ostracizing myself by asking this question.

I'm doing a '79 Trans-Am and was planning on using PTFB control Arms and steering system, but want a spindle that was cleaner and C5 based, to use on a modified stock subframe, so this spindle system is appealing.

If you have any experience with this spindle setup and would care to comment, I'd appreciate hearing your opinions.

Thanks,

There does seem to be a "made in China" stigma on them, but they have been around for a few years now and seems everyone who has them has no complaints. I would run them if I had a car to do so. I prefer to use the KORE Kit.

[David Pozzi]

We ran them on Mary's 73 Camaro for a short time. Used the same set of wheels we had before and didn't notice any offset issues but it was a few years ago and maybe I'm not remembering it fully. You won't have steering stops but that's the only issue I noticed.

We also tried the GMR hubs with it and those kept loosening up lash and we stopped running them & sent them back. We didn't know anything about The GMR hubs before testing them. When I saw what they did I was skeptical. It was a basically a Corvette bearing unit with tapered roller bearings inside it. The bearings appeared to be the ceramic type but I didn't take it apart to see. Their machine work is outstanding but I fail to see how you can replace the narrowly spaced ball bearings with small tapered roller bearings and not have play in the system. Tapered rollers usually require lash of .001" where the ball bearings are large diameter and preloaded. The narrow GMR spacing with small bearing sizes increases deflection.

I have lots of experience with Corvette unit bearing hubs, they are way way better than stock non-sealed hubs. We run manual brakes and had knock back problems until we switched to the Corvette hubs. The ZR1 hubs are the best, utilizing larger outer bearings than before. C7 bearings are supposed to be the same. There is no way to compare a C7 hub to a fourth gen Camaro hub, they are very reliable and the biggest thing is they are stiff with some pre-load on the ball bearings. Stock type tapered roller bearings need .001" lash, so you start out with some play, then the stock spindle pin adds more flex.

[Darin Jordan]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

I returned the CPP Spindle assemblies and decided to just put the money into the AFX Spindle setup. Should be a solid foundation to start my build around.

[79-TA]

The thread is a bit old, but here's some clarification on the CPP C5 style steering knuckles.

2nd Gen CPP Spindles:
- maintain stock geometry for better interchangeability with other aftermarket parts
- maintains wheel mount surface location
- no steering stops
- designed in-house by CPP
- cast overseas
- made of ductile iron* (much stronger than any aluminum of a similar shape)


*Many years ago, people would accuse the CPP steering knuckles of being weak and dangerous while simultaneously endorsing aluminum steering knuckles for the same application . . . the iron casting would have to be ridiculously terrible to lose the inherent advantage in material strength

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE8tNswWng0

The Pozzis received possibly the worst combination ever produced. The GMR hub was a traditional spindle that would bolt onto a steering knuckle meant for a sealed hub. Without the spindle being embedded in the casting of the steering knuckle, it was like getting the worst of both worlds for hub flex.

[David Pozzi]

The thread is a bit old, but here's some clarification on the CPP C5 style steering knuckles.

2nd Gen CPP Spindles:
- maintain stock geometry for better interchangeability with other aftermarket parts
- maintains wheel mount surface location
- no steering stops
- designed in-house by CPP
- cast overseas
- made of ductile iron* (much stronger than any aluminum of a similar shape)


*Many years ago, people would accuse the CPP steering knuckles of being weak and dangerous while simultaneously endorsing aluminum steering knuckles for the same application . . . the iron casting would have to be ridiculously terrible to lose the inherent advantage in material strength

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE8tNswWng0

The Pozzis received possibly the worst combination ever produced. The GMR hub was a traditional spindle that would bolt onto a steering knuckle meant for a sealed hub. Without the spindle being embedded in the casting of the steering knuckle, it was like getting the worst of both worlds for hub flex.

Yes, the big issue was the narrow spacing between the tapered roller bearings, but tapered roller bearings have more play than ball bearings. Those units were being touted as being better than C6 Zo6 bearings, I don't think so!

[79T/Aman]

aren't the SKF hubs tapered bearings? Hoosier performance used to have hubs made by Casper and they used tapered bearings as well, I remember john explaining how difficult it was to design the hubs properly.

[c4racer2]

What solutions exist for using sealed C6 hubs on a 2nd gen besides the AFX? I like these spindles, but I don't want to run their entire front suspension for $4K to get them!

[79T/Aman]

pretty sure the C6 hub mounts to the cpp spindle

[c4racer2]

Sure - but I am far from sold on the CPP spindle based on what I see in this thread - was wondering if there were other options.

the regular bearing hubs like KORE3 seem like a better way to to than the CPP spindle in my view. I mean sure AFX is no doubt a good solution but I don't see $4K worth of value for that front suspension personally. If it were half that I'd be all over it. 75% of that I would think long and hard about it.
I already have DSE UCA and sway bar for one thing - so duplication of parts in my case. And not sure I need front coil overs either. Maybe eventually if I move to rear 4 link with coil overs I'd do it to match the shocks. But my current set-up with stock type springs works pretty dang well.

[79T/Aman]

I agree on retaining your stock serviceable bearing spindles.

[Blue66]

Can I re-open this discussion and call on anyone who has been using the CPP spindle with a C7 bearing? OEM SKF C7 bearings are currently $89 each on rockauto. I have more faith in this forum than to hear that a tapered bearing setup on a 60 year old spindle is a better design than a SKF C7 sealed hub bearing.

Its almost like NO ONE on this forum will endorse what "seems like" the best spindle out there and I am dying to know why! I am on the verge of buying KORE3 aluminum hubs to use my ancient setup with tall ball joints and all that all backdoor stuff because people on here talk like the CPP unit is dangerous. Is it?

Honest opinion: Is this a forum to come for discussion and answers or is it more brand loyalty related? Its as if people are scared to even discuss the CPP spindle? Did something happen?

[dhutton]

Here’s my take. Those CPP spindles are very heavy, adding to unsprung weight. Unsprung weight means harsh ride.

Don

[Blue66]

That is a solid point. I wonder what the weight difference is between the CPP unit / C7 hub VS. factory spindle / cast drum hub combo.

[79T/Aman]

You can do as you please, but correct me if I'm wrong.
- I don't see C7 SKF hubs on Rockauto at all, I see AC delco for $89, MOOG for $156, CPP gets over $200 ...link?
- Others have asked , do you not want to improve the geometry? cpp spindles are stock height.
- Is the only reason you want sealed hubs is to not have to pack bearings? if so then get them, make a decisions, on this board we tend to want to improve things, not wanting to pack bearings is not one of them and there are ZERO mechanical benefits to sealed hubs VS serviceable bearings and the fact remains that sealed hubs were made for cars with NEGATIVE scub not positive as older cars have.
It seems that all your worry are about strength of the spindle but are not looking at the big picture and as I've said in another post the spindle is not the issue.
So as I said you are free to do as you see fit.

[Blue66]

You can do as you please, but correct me if I'm wrong.
- I don't see C7 SKF hubs on Rockauto at all, I see AC delco for $89, MOOG for $156, CPP gets over $200 ...link?
- Others have asked , do you not want to improve the geometry? cpp spindles are stock height.
- Is the only reason you want sealed hubs is to not have to pack bearings? if so then get them, make a decisions, on this board we tend to want to improve things, not wanting to pack bearings is not one of them and there are ZERO mechanical benefits to sealed hubs VS serviceable bearings and the fact remains that sealed hubs were made for cars with NEGATIVE scub not positive as older cars have.
It seems that all your worry are about strength of the spindle but are not looking at the big picture and as I've said in another post the spindle is not the issue.
So as I said you are free to do as you see fit.

Geometry is important and the reason for doing all this, ( and C6 brakes ) but strength is indeed #1 to me. A broken spindle is no joke. What part of the geometry is improved with tall ball joints that is not with the spindle? I was offered a 0.9" tall ball joint for a stock spindle so what would be the difference between that and a new cast spindle that is 1" taller? Same overall height, same steer arms and mounts. Identical geometry it sounds to me. Im not being a smart @ss I am asking because I do not know but would like to know.


- ACDelco hubs off RockAuto for the C7 are an SKF unit. Part number FW412 as referenced by a friend I have at a GM dealer. He said little people know this and over pay. I have two ACDelco FW412s at my house and seen with my own eyes the stamp cast right on the hub, "SKF" I'll take a pic tonight and load them.

- Also the 30013 CPP spindle IS NOT stock height. I live 20 minutes from summit racing and put a tape measure on the CPP 30013 and my stock spindle. The CPP is exactly 1" taller from ball joint to ball joint but maintains stock height.

[79T/Aman]

I personalty never seen the early F/A body spindle so I was not sure, but did a little research before answering and this is what I had found...should have known better from Summit :hand:

:Is this a tall spindle or stock 7.75" height? Asked by JOHAN on December 20, 2017
A: Thank you for your question. These spindles are stock height. The physical measurement is not listed.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/11/fromsre-1.jpgSummit Racing Answer - December 21, 2017

[79T/Aman]

So it just seems to me that your path is clear, it boils down to what you want to spend, the Speed Tech will offer you a wider range of steering improvements and lighter weight.

[Blue66]

I personalty never seen the early F/A body spindle so I was not sure, but did a little research before answering and this is what I had found...should have known better from Summit :hand:

:Is this a tall spindle or stock 7.75" height?

Asked by JOHAN on December 20, 2017
A: Thank you for your question. These spindles are stock height. The physical measurement is not listed.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2019/11/fromsre-1.jpgSummit Racing Answer - December 21, 2017


Yes sir this is wrong. I put a tape measure on the CPP 30013 myself and the stock unit and am 100% sure the CPP unit is exactly 1" taller than stock. I live 20 minutes from the Tallmadge Ohio Summit Racing retail location. Which by the way the retail guys are not much better. I go in there with my own part numbers anymore because I have had so many returns. Hell it is that way with Autozones and O'reillys too which is why I turn to Rockauto anymore...

As far as the lightweight aspect goes I would rather lose 10lbs off my belly than spend $1,400 to save it.. I don't even think going to aluminum heads from rebuilt irons set me back that much.. My steering is very predictable now with my stock height spindle and Jeep gearbox, would I be correct in saying that adding a taller upper ball joint or this taller spindle would not affect my current steering geometry? When put side by side the CPP unit and stock unit mount the steering arms the exact same way.

[1966socalgoat]

I have CPP spindles on my 66 GTO, no issues with them at all, i did purchase hubs separately but cant remember from who. I do not trust aluminum in this application, i actually prefer the cast iron and to be honest casting iron is a pretty low tech process anyway.

[David Pozzi]

You can do as you please, but correct me if I'm wrong.
- I don't see C7 SKF hubs on Rockauto at all, I see AC delco for $89, MOOG for $156, CPP gets over $200 ...link?
- Others have asked , do you not want to improve the geometry? cpp spindles are stock height.
- Is the only reason you want sealed hubs is to not have to pack bearings? if so then get them, make a decisions, on this board we tend to want to improve things, not wanting to pack bearings is not one of them and there are ZERO mechanical benefits to sealed hubs VS serviceable bearings and the fact remains that sealed hubs were made for cars with NEGATIVE scub not positive as older cars have.
It seems that all your worry are about strength of the spindle but are not looking at the big picture and as I've said in another post the spindle is not the issue.
So as I said you are free to do as you see fit.

I disagree very strongly that the C7 hubs are not better than regular Camaro spindles!
I'm old school and used to think I wanted a serviceable/packable bearing set. After working with James Shipka on the One Lap Camaro I could see the benefits of the Speed Tech spindles and Corvette unit bearings. My wife's 73 Camaro had terrible brake knock back problems (manual) after installing 14" rotors with six piston fixed calipers. First we installed a Baer full floater rear axle, which reduced knock back about half. Next we tried the CPP spindles with The GMR hubs which were not very good because they were Corvette type hubs but with tapered roller bearings inside and they always had play/flex resulting in knock back. The next year we changed the front subframe to an Art Morrison with Corvette C6 spindles and hubs. The brakes were great after that! I would not run big brakes on a tapered bearing spindle or non-floater rear axle ever again, unless the bearings were huge, like NASCAR huge.

At SEMA a few years ago I stopped by the Timken bearing booth. Saw cutaways of the Corvette and Camaro unit bearings and heard the reasons why they are better as far as stiffness goes. I can explain further if anyone is interested.

[79T/Aman]

I disagree very strongly that the C7 hubs are not better than regular Camaro spindles!
I'm old school and used to think I wanted a serviceable/packable bearing set. After working with James Shipka on the One Lap Camaro I could see the benefits of the Speed Tech spindles and Corvette unit bearings. My wife's 73 Camaro had terrible brake knock back problems (manual) after installing 14" rotors with six piston fixed calipers. First we installed a Baer full floater rear axle, which reduced knock back about half. Next we tried the CPP spindles with The GMR hubs which were not very good because they were Corvette type hubs but with tapered roller bearings inside and they always had play/flex resulting in knock back. The next year we changed the front subframe to an Art Morrison with Corvette C6 spindles and hubs. The brakes were great after that! I would not run big brakes on a tapered bearing spindle or non-floater rear axle ever again, unless the bearings were huge, like NASCAR huge.

At SEMA a few years ago I stopped by the Timken bearing booth. Saw cutaways of the Corvette and Camaro unit bearings and heard the reasons why they are better as far as stiffness goes. I can explain further if anyone is interested.

I think it is important to take into account the layout of the front suspension, the difference between Mary's stock frame with cpp spindles and the AM frame is scrub radius and how the bearings are loaded, are the wheel offset different between the stock frame and the AM?
My point is serviceable bearing spindles have a wider load bearing spacing than sealed hubs, making the bearing assembly more stable. there is no denying that advancements have been made in this area, were hubs failed on a regular basis there are now solutions, but for the average enthusiast on a budget sticking to tried and trued methods I feel is still prudent and advisable, wanting 14" brakes VS needing them is also something to think about, IMHO having iron 14" rotors becomes counter productive as the weight penalty and flywheel effect may not provide enough benefits to this community and how most of the cars are used, there are of course exceptions, it all boils down to needs, wants, budget, bragging rights and whether the car will ever be finished.

[CapSS92]

David Pozzi, I would like to hear the reasons why. Your stuff is always a good read and informative. Off topic, one of local guys here in town rode with your wife on a track at one of the Goodguys events and she proceeded to scare the crap outta him. Lucky *******. As for the spindles I run a set on my 65 Chevelle and I can attest to the height difference. I thought long and hard about making the sacrifice for the AFX but I just cannot afford the cost. I wish I could but I had to settle for room and board or the Chevelle. That being said, I have had zero issues with them. I had them powder coated due to them being cast raw but even the realignment was minimal. Bolted right in, over a thousand miles so far with no issues. I run a 13.5" rotor with C6 calipers and a 1" MC from a TrailBlazer and it stops great. I agree with not needing the 6 piston calipers and 14" rotor. I'm not racing it anywhere other than on the freeway and I had a hybrid 14" rotor with C5 caliper before and no one has been able to tell the difference between that and my current CPP 13.5"/C6 combo size wise. Attached below are two links that show the spindle height difference and a really great video from Suspension Geeks showing the benefits of taller spindles. Very informative.

Alex

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/122482-Ridetech-Camaro-A-arm-stock-spindle-with-Gmod

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1837245289853346