What would be the best set up for the front of a bagged 1st gen?

[Johnny Blaze]

Okay, I am still in the planning stages, but I have decided that bags are the way to go.

Car is a 67 firebird. I am going to run the air bar rear and shockwave front. I know the front geometry is bad on these cars, so what should I do?

With so many different a arms and spindles and such out there, whats a guy to do?

The car will be street driven, but hard. Give me your pic list of what to do!

[Travis B]

I'm sure air ride tech will tell you DSE arms, it has been my experience in bagging several cars that somewhat of a drop spindle will help the car sit a little lower w/o fear of bottoming out ball joints....so that being said the only spindle that I know of that improves geometry and drops the car is the ATS spindle

using a DSE lower arm will require you to fab a lower shock wave mount!

[darren@ridetech]

I beleive that DSE has lower arm specifically for the Shockwave. The Shockwave is going to drop the car about 2" by itself. The drop spindles may be too much. Fully deflated we did not have any problems with the ball joints binding.

[Travis B]

I beleive that DSE has lower arm specifically for the Shockwave. The Shockwave is going to drop the car about 2" by itself. The drop spindles may be too much. Fully deflated we did not have any problems with the ball joints binding.


wow I didn't know DSE had an arm for it......thats pretty cool! The only reason I included that little bit about the ball joints binding is because I have an A-body that they come real close on.....when it is layed out


darren is that 2in at ride height for the shockwave????

[fletcherscustoms]

I plan to run shockwaves on my car in the future. I am very happy to hear DSE makes a specific arm! But would like more info on using drop spindles with the DSE arms and shockwaves

[Johnny Blaze]

So, DSE Arms, ATS Spindles, what about sway bar? Hotchkis?

Do the DSE Arms fix the geometry as well?

[baz67]

Yes they help with the geometry and bumpsteer. ATS will have a splined sta-bar sometime next year.

[darren@ridetech]

Yes the driving height will be approx. 2" lower than factory just by bolting on the Shockwaves. Add the spindles and you will have a 4" dropped ride height. That is pretty low but if that is what you want then, yes use the spindles.

I have a question about the ATS spindles.
I understand how it can help bumpsteer but how else does it help the geometry?

[Travis B]

darren does ART make a muscle bar for the first gen?

[sinned]

Yes they help with the geometry and bumpsteer. ATS will have a splined sta-bar sometime next year.
I assume this was in response to
So, DSE Arms, ATS Spindles, what about sway bar? Hotchkis?

Do the DSE Arms fix the geometry as well?How exactly do control arms help with poor geometry (camber is the only one we really care about) and bump steer?

[baz67]

Dennis,

I guess I should have defined my answer better. I was refering to the ATS spindle and not the UCAs. My bad. I must learn to read better.

Darren,

The ATS spindles are 1.7" taller than stock so kinematicly they act like the Guldstrand mod. They raise the FRCH and shorten the FVSA.

[Travis B]

I plan to run shockwaves on my car in the future. I am very happy to hear DSE makes a specific arm! But would like more info on using drop spindles with the DSE arms and shockwaves

If the shockwave lowers it 2in, the ATS spindle will ower it another in. That would get you 3in at ride hieghwhich should be about right then you always have the option of laying it out at the fair grounds. IMO it will need at least a 3in drop at ride height most 1st gens sit like a$$......

[Johnny Blaze]

So if the ATS spindles modify the geometry, will this be a problem using it with the DSE arms if they do to? Or will the combo be even better due to the assumed lower ride height?

[Travis B]

So if the ATS spindles modify the geometry, will this be a problem using it with the DSE arms if they do to? Or will the combo be even better due to the assumed lower ride height?

To my knowledge the DSE arms do very little if anything to improve geometry! But i'm sure someone else can tell you exactly what they do.

[sinned]

We’ll go over this again since it seems to come up once a month or so. Control arms do nothing for improving geometry issues. Some arms add some caster and some include bushings to make caster adjustments easier but camber (the one that is an issue and we want to improve) cannot be corrected in any way, shape, or form by replacing the control arms.



Summation: upper arms help with a little bit of caster, lower arms do nothing, and both add the necessary https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif to be considered “P-T” by the new definition.

[Johnny Blaze]

Thanks for the info! I figured the upper arms were mostly for looks.

So, the ATS spindles would be the way to go then?

[hotroddr]

wouldnt a shorter upper control arm produce better negative camber gain since it would be rotating about a shorter radius than the stock piece? This would work I would think assuming you have enough camber adjustment to avoid a large degree of static camber due to the shorter Upper control arms. This would mean that UCAs could improve geometry the same way that lowering the mount or increasing the height of the spindle works(the upper control arm starts at a greater angle from horizontal effectively decreasing the radius with respect to the lower control arm)

Correct me if Im wrong here...seems logical to me though
-Dennis

[sinned]

wouldnt a shorter upper control arm produce better negative camber gain since it would be rotating about a shorter radius than the stock piece?
-DennisOnly if the spindle height is lengthened and only to a degree. Too short of an UCA will result in too much neg gain and too short of a FVSA length. It will also result in HUGE RC migration during bump.

[Marcus SC&C]

Okay,let`s start all over. Forget all about brand names and marketing for a moment. Okay....forgotten?

Alright,now what do you want the car and it`s suspension to DO?

-You want to lower the car how much to achieve your new static ride height?
-Do you plan to drive the car at this height and this height ONLY or would you like to drive it around are various heights depending on the situation,your mood etc.?
-How much do you want to improve the handling AND how much are you willing to sacrifice for "coolness"?
This is all about geometry and it`s effects on the car`s dynamics. The only constant here is that you want an absolute minimum of bumpsteer (toe change) because you`ll be operating the car over a wider than normal range of vertical travel. You can basically do this in 2 ways,one is the ATS spindles which have the steering arm lowered .500". Or you can use our tall stud tie rod ends which also drop it .500". Either of these combined with the proper alignment specs will keep your toe as close as possible to where you initially set it and help the car to go straight and track good regardless of ride height.
If the Shockwaves drop the car 2" already I`d steer clear of the typical 2" drop spindles unless you`re into road demolition. ;)
That taken care of you need to decide if you`ll have a fixed driving height or if you plan to drive it at different heights? If you`ll have one set height you drive it at you can optimize the camber curves/RC height etc. for best performance at that height. Be aware they when you drop the car really low the tires will camber in hard at the top and may look a little odd. You can do this with the ATS spindles,their increased height (actually about 1 1/2" taller than stock) improves the camber curves and raises the RC height to basically modern performance specs. You can also do it with our Stage 2 package with tall balljoints,combined with the G mod.
If you plan to drive the car at much different ride heights you`ll want to neutralize the camber change so the tires stay roughly straight up and down throughout the suspension travel. You can do this with the G mod,our Stage 1 package with no G mod or ATS stock height spindles with the G mod. If you go this way use a mild version of the G mod so that you get the minimum of - camber gain at very low ride heights. If the car is ultra low,no G mod may be necessary at all or spindle height change may be necessary.
In regard to upper arms Dennis is absolutely right. The ONLY thing upper arms can alter *directly* is caster. They may also effect static alignment specs which may then in turn alter other characteristics. In this case especially you also need to be very concerned about ball joint mounting angles and binding though. Any arms,stock or otherwise with a "droop" built into them so that the ball joint mounting plate is parallel with the ground at near stock ride heights will end up with the ball joint at an acute angle and in possible bind when the car is lowered a great deal. The solution is to use arms that reset the ball joint mounting angle at 0 at the new lowered ride height,giving them a full OE range of travel from *that* point,greatly reducing the chances of ball joint binding. Also as a rule of thumb as the car gets lower or the effective spindle height gets taller the upper arm needs to get shorter. The amount of length change we`re talking about here has virtually no effect on the overall geometry. To get into meaningful (and possibly detrimental) length change you`d have to move the frame perches outboard. At any rate,as you can see fixed arms of any type can only work well within a confined range. Even if they fit up they may restrict the available range of alignment settings. This is why we use modular adj. upper arms in all of our packages,there is NO other way to provide arms that will work perfectly in every single application,well unless you made about a million different arms for each type of car. ;) Marcus SC&C

Wow,that`s a long post! :lol:

[fletcherscustoms]

Your guys opnions on best aftermarket subframe setup with shockwaves??

[baz67]

I will put in my .02. The GW, DSE and ST arms add much more static positive caster than the stock arms. If you want, and you do, more than 4* positive static caster you want those uppers. The Guldstrand mod adds around 1* positive static caster so that can help. At least until ATS releases thier offset caster cross shafts for the stock arms. Even then if you want to try and stuff anything wider than a 245 tire you still need the tubular uppers for tire clearance.

[darren@ridetech]

darren does ART make a muscle bar for the first gen?
Yes. We do have a sway bar available for the front.

[Travis B]

Yes. We do have a sway bar available for the front.


darren I wasn't sure if you had one for a camaro......

I have an A-body sway bar from airride tech. It is a very nice peice and bolts right on