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trapin
12-04-2005, 01:40 PM
I broke into this hobby as an engine builder. My uncles and my father were engine builders. Every engine I ever had in my car was one I built from the bare block. That's how I prefer it...and I'll probably go that route again with the next engine.

For the past few years I've been reading up a lot on LSX technology and all the crazy/sexy parts that you can buy for them. It seems like it's really gaining in popularity. To be honest...I find it to be quite intriquing and have entertained the idea of going with one in my car when it's ready. However, it seems like it's a ton of money and aggravation just to get the thing in your 1st gen not to mention all the money you have to spend to modify one. I would never try to tackle one from the block as I do not have the experience so I would probably commision Wheel To Wheel here in Michigan to build one for me. A few months ago I called them to inquire about them building me an LS1 in the area of 500 horsepower. Price? $12,000. The other day I priced a build for a 406 using the 400 block that I already have and with an Eagle rotating assembly and Trickflow cam and head package plus everything else needed for the long block it came out to $5476 minus taxes and shipping from Summit. This is a package pieced together that will make around 500 horse and 500 ft lbs of torque.

That's a huge price difference. I understand the LS1 is all aluminum and would be fuel injected but aside from that....what's the real advantage? It seems like after I'm done having W2W build it and then throwing another bag of money over the wall to ATS to get it in my car...it might end up costing me 3 times the amount of money for roughly the same performance as the 406.

Why would I do it? Would it just be personal preference? That's a lot more money just to say I have an LSX in my car.

SatisTraction
12-04-2005, 01:46 PM
well if you can build a small block you can build a LSx. for 500 hp i would get a 6.0l block, futral custom cam, fast intake/TB, afr heads, and call it a day.

Matt
12-04-2005, 02:11 PM
The aluminum part is a big thing. A world aluminum small block is 3500 bucks.
The crank is a beast and has been known to take over 900hp. A good crank for an sbc is 600 bucks. The computer is pretty wicked, and with ls1 edit or hp tuners is very tuneable, and a lot cheaper than a FAST.

For me getting a complete nice aluminum blocked motor would be a great deal more expensive than getting a used ls1 that allready has all the stuff with it (alternator, etc). As I've seen used ls1's go for under 2500 bucks. Plus they are great on gas milage and love a mild (150) shot of spray. With beefed up rods and pistons at lowe comp they do well with turbos (800hp range).

nitrovette
12-04-2005, 03:21 PM
Ive been building motors for 15+ years now and just did a cam head package with forged pistons and steel rods on a 2004 c5 for my brother .That was first experience with a ls1,now im building a ls1 from a bare block for my 73 vette,weight savings is a big one also compared to old iron head iron block engine.

Van B
12-04-2005, 03:45 PM
To me the big advantage is weight and the superior port design. The heads make it easier to find power.

harshman
12-04-2005, 04:13 PM
Aluminum block and better designed heads still do not out weigh the installation price and power modifications to me. I see complete engines on ebay but most with a minimum of 40k miles on them and any less miles they want $4k. So $2,500 - $4,000 for motor and trany, then another $3,500 in heads and cam, then another $2,500 just to get the flippin' thing installed and running = $10-12k at least for a maybe 500 hp with 40k miles on it already. I plan on having a guy build a 383 w/ 530 hp old school roller cam and all for $5,500. To me it doesn't make sense to spend $4-5k to save about 100 lbs (I have yet to get a firm answer on this).

WS6
12-04-2005, 05:16 PM
the cost disadvantages outweight the advantages in a lot of cases. with so many more head options that flow as good if not better than LS heads you can build a killer traditional SBC. DFI now makes up for any advatages the factory ECM/FI may offer. actually in most all out LS applications DFI is used not the factory ECM.

i think the biggest thing is the fact that your blending old with brand new so you have the wow/bling factor. also in some cases you can easily drop an LS engine into an old car and have great drivability and power.

its going to depend on the application mainly but by no means has the SBC been replaced at all by the LS engines.

trapin
12-04-2005, 05:40 PM
Yep. The engine I have priced out will have aluminum heads (there's some weight savings) a hydraulic roller camshaft and run on pump gas. All I can figure the LSX engine would have on me is the aluminum block and fuel injection. Big deal...I don't need fuel injection.

Must be the bling is all I can figure.

Van B
12-04-2005, 06:11 PM
I guess everyone has their own reasons for what they do. I do not have the talent to build an engine from the ground up. When I looked at Bill Mitchell and other all aluminum crate engines with similar power output, my LSx based engine was a good option for me.

To each his own...

ilovefirstgens
12-04-2005, 06:24 PM
I don't know about the bling... they have plastic intakes and all the stupid coils covering the valve covers, and i think a good carbureted small block is much easier to bling out (polished everything!)

I personally love driving my car, not waiting for it to warm up every morning, or getting 8mpg on a students budget! Ls1s do get pricey but harshman was pretty far off 3500 for heads and cam?! the new darts are about 600 each assembled, and cams are generally $400. i wont have anywhere near 10k in mine and ill have done rack and pinion, a hydroboost setup, and a ron davis rad, not to mention a very streetable 400rwhp and damn good mileage if i stay off the loud petal...

If you want a powerful, extremely streetable engine. Not to mention comes strapped onto a 6 speed, thats relitively great on gas mileage, and even weighs much less then a gen 1. Then its for you, if all you want is a super fast car for the money then theres no doubt in my mind a ls1 is the wrong way to go, sbc and bbc all the way!

harshman
12-04-2005, 06:43 PM
"harshman was pretty far off $3,500 for heads and cam?"

Jegs AFR heads @$2,500 new cam $400-900 (again Jegs) and labor to install.

WS6
12-04-2005, 07:47 PM
if all you want is a super fast car for the money then theres no doubt in my mind a ls1 is the wrong way to go, sbc and bbc all the way!

this is the point i was trying to make and i believe trapin was after. however putting DFI on an old school engine will yeild very similar drivability and gas milage results as the LS is capable of.

oh and 3500 is high for parts only but its actually low to right inline for installed and tuned at a shop.

heads $1700-2100(this is for quality budget ported heads), cam $400-600, tuned $500, installation and other misc parts $800-1200. thats figuring 12-15 hours @ $50/hour which is what it takes me to do a C5. this does not include new timing chain or oil pump. that will add $150 plus if needed. if you have the LS1 intake that will have to be changed and if your going radical enough you'll need injectors as well. it adds up very quickly when building an LS. good headers push 800-1000 alone.

Ralph LoGrasso
12-04-2005, 08:19 PM
Just to clear up a few misconceptions in here, ebay is the absolute worst (read: most expensive) place to shop for an LSX motor. Classified sections on LS1tech.com, this site, and others are the best.

Secondly, one main reason to go to an LSX is the power potential of these motors. If you're only looking for 450-500hp, then stick with the traditional SBC. However, if you're looking to make the most power for the least amount of money, N/A the LSX will be cheaper in the long run.

The third reason is streetability and comfort. Show me a 350 that idles near stock, and makes 525hp. I'll show you a ton of 346ci LS1s that do just that. Sure, once you get into strokers, and bigger blocks, that goal becomes more attainable, but you can also build a 600+hp 402ci LS2 for around $8,500 (minus accessories and conversion parts), and still maintain decent idle and reliabilty. Show me some 406's that do that, and do it cheaply, since budget is of huge concern. Maybe I'll eat my foot on this one, but I'm not thinking so.

I'm not knocking the gen I, but please don't discount the LSX as a bling motor. People are making incredible power with them. Give the aftermarket some time with the LS7, and I bet you'll be seeing 650-675+hp (NA) 427s that are still extremely streetable and running on pump gas.



"harshman was pretty far off $3,500 for heads and cam?"

Jegs AFR heads @$2,500 new cam $400-900 (again Jegs) and labor to install.

AFRs are some of the most expensive LS1 heads out there, so it's not really a fair comparison. Also, you do not at all need AFR 225s for a stock cubed, N/A motor. The AFR 205s are $2,200 most places, btw. $2,205 at LS1speed.com (http://www.ls1speed.com/catagory.cfm?catagory=Valvetrain%20/%20Heads) The 225s are $2,400.

Dart 205s which should be widely available soon, are less than $1,300. You can have stock heads ported for around that price as well. Stock ported heads make great power, up until 1.5-2 years ago, it was all the LSX crowd had. PP Stage 2 LS6 5.7 heads for $1,195 @ Speed Inc. (http://www.ls1speed.com/catagory.cfm?catagory=Valvetrain%20/%20Heads) LS1Speed's heads / cam packages are $1,669. Includes: Patriot CNC Stage 2 Ported Heads, GM MLS Head Gaskets, Felpro Head Bolts, Choice of any Comp Cam Grind, Comp Chrome moly Pushrods, GM Crank Bolt & Seal

I think this thread is assuming most people are doing their own work. If you can install heads / cam on a traditional SBC, you can do it on an LSX. You might not be able to tune it, but you should be able to do the install itself.

And yes, the LSX swap can be expensive, but there are also bargain ways of going about it. It's probably less worthwhile for the guy who is just swapping his motor out for a new one in his already completed car, due to the costs of the conversion. But if you're starting from scratch and are already needing a new fuel tank, system, headers, etc, the costs are really not that much greater. Maybe $1,500-2,000 or so, if you shop wisely.

edit: for those links to work, you'll need to enter 2001 for year and Camaro as vehicle.

Rybar
12-04-2005, 10:52 PM
Also don't forget, most of the used LSX's you'll find have tranny's attached for the price you pay. Which makes it an extra bargain. Also, you start with an honest 350 hp engine stock, which is plenty enough for most people.

I was doing the same comparo as you a while back, but once I priced out a built SBC 383 + cost of a TKO tranny, the used LS1 + T56 combo was a huge bargain.

You can also do the conversion for quite a bit cheaper if you re-use the stock rad/fans, mod your gas tank & fab up some of your own headers.

I guess you have to compare apples to apples which is kind of hard in this discussion.

MrQuick
12-04-2005, 11:49 PM
My idea on a LSX engine as a reasons to have or use one are weight HP and FI efficiency. Say you took advantage of all necassary weight saving off of your car with an aluminum headed iron block. now I say take off another 100lbs and add another 100hp...can you do it? its hard I tried.

Remember removing x amount of weight equals the addition of x amout of HP. I remember a friend running 10 flats and trying to get into the 9's. $15k later he cracked 10's with a 9.92 et.


How many stroker iron blocks can you honestly say will run 11's all day, pull to 6500+ and still get 24mpg. But, yes an engine is an engine. i like em both. oh and you can set an LS motor back farther due to absence of a distributer

trapin
12-05-2005, 04:39 AM
I guess what it boils down to in the end is.....what are you using the car for?

Saving weight and fuel consumption are important for performace cars that routinely see the track. Mine won't.

A lot of the places I will drive my car are not far from my house. I don't know anyone that would take a week off of work to go cruise across the country on Power Tour with me so it's unlikely I'll ever participate in that event. So for me, saving weight and gas mileage is not a huge issue.

For what it's worth I still love the LSX technology and if I had the money would definitely do it. But it just doesn't make sense with this car.

harshman
12-05-2005, 06:49 AM
I guess what it boils down to in the end is.....what are you using the car for?

Saving weight and fuel consumption are important for performace cars that routinely see the track. Mine won't.

A lot of the places I will drive my car are not far from my house. I don't know anyone that would take a week off of work to go cruise across the country on Power Tour with me so it's unlikely I'll ever participate in that event. So for me, saving weight and gas mileage is not a huge issue.

For what it's worth I still love the LSX technology and if I had the money would definitely do it. But it just doesn't make sense with this car.
very well put. i love the tech as well but it doesn't add up for my car as well.

MSchu
12-05-2005, 07:48 AM
Another thing to consider is who will build, work on, and tune it. I live in the sticks...noone even knows what an LSX is let alone working on a conversion. I could probably do it myself but then you have to buy the tuner program, actually learn how to use it, and then test you're results. I know plenty of dirt circle track guys that can tune a carbed gen 1 sbc to 10/10ths blind-folded w/ one hand tied behind their back. I love the tech of the LSX's too, but it just doesn't fit me or my car either.

Nine Ball
12-05-2005, 10:13 AM
The main benefit of the LSX is that you can achieve excellent power without sacrificing drivability, reliability, or fuel efficiency. The lightweight block, heads, and intake are secondary benefits. It weighs about 230 lbs less than an SBC with iron heads.

Keep in mind that you can find a completely stock LS1 longblock from intake to oil pan for around $2000-2500 if you keep your eyes open. These engines put down 350 hp in stock form. No slouch, even if you decide not to modify it further. Slap a set of longtube headers, valvesprings, and a better camshaft and you will pick up another 100 hp...without removing the heads. You would have 450 reliable HP, excellent idle quality, and still manage to put down 28-30 mpg with a 6-speed behind it.

If you can do things yourself, an LS1 installation is simple.

Matt
12-05-2005, 11:34 AM
As Tony just said you can find smoking deals (especially on his site).

Hell, HERE I saw an ls1/4l60e combo for 2600, complete. I haven't seen an efi 350, with all the stuff (intake to oilpan with accessories as many have) as well as the harness and pcm for that price.

Seriously, if you all know of an ironblock/aluminum head motor complete with accessories and a very good efi system that can net 30mpg through a t-56 for less money tell me.

As for the install you can do fuel for less than 500, the motor mounts for next to nothing, and the t-56 install kit is what 250? The headers are one of the only real expenses, and with a slew of friends that can make headers from scratch I figure I can get out of it for 500 bucks there too with something trick.

blackwidow
12-06-2005, 01:25 PM
drivability, drivability,drivability, great power and as a kicker you get 24mpg. what more can you ask for mike

Matt
12-06-2005, 03:25 PM
My buddy got 30 observed on the highway in his stripper z28 with a t-56... same guy that called me x-mas eve to tell me he just roasted a murceilago on the high way while he was spraying.

Ralph LoGrasso
12-06-2005, 03:32 PM
I averaged right about 30.5-31mpg on my 790 mile trip home to NY after I bought my SS (M6). Speeds were between 55-70, cruise control on.

ilovefirstgens
12-06-2005, 05:06 PM
Oh as for the bargins on ls1tech, i got a complete 70k 99 ss that got hit in the passenger door enough to total it for $4500 there!!! $800 hood $300 spoiler.... so on and so fourth, ended up making about $1500 with a free ls1/t56. I still have a bunch of bits and peices left over from it that are easily worth another grand. And thats not to mention all the things i pulled off the 68 and sold!!! all in all if i had not gone all out I could have made money on it... but of corse who could resist going the extra mile.

And yes this is not counting my labor, but hell I enjoy wrenching on my cars, so that saves me money paying to have fun too!!! haha

EFI69Cam
01-06-2006, 01:01 PM
The main benefit of the LSX is that you can achieve excellent power without sacrificing drivability, reliability, or fuel efficiency. The lightweight block, heads, and intake are secondary benefits. It weighs about 230 lbs less than an SBC with iron heads.

Keep in mind that you can find a completely stock LS1 longblock from intake to oil pan for around $2000-2500 if you keep your eyes open. These engines put down 350 hp in stock form. No slouch, even if you decide not to modify it further. Slap a set of longtube headers, valvesprings, and a better camshaft and you will pick up another 100 hp...without removing the heads. You would have 450 reliable HP, excellent idle quality, and still manage to put down 28-30 mpg with a 6-speed behind it.

If you can do things yourself, an LS1 installation is simple.


Sorry to jack the thread.

I see the idea of a "decent" cam for an ls1 being used alot. If you post up on the ls1 sites about what a "decent" cam is you get as many opinions as you get answers.

I've read alot of good things about 224/224'-.581" cams. Are these the ones that give the 450hp with longtubes?
I have a 99 FRC with long tubes and ls6 heads(not installed) that I want to "improve" power wise without ruining the car as a driver. What would you recommend?

427
01-06-2006, 03:35 PM
Interesting thread.
The engine you priced will produce in the "area" of 500hp.
What that means: Our normal crate engine will make 550hp SAE, thats the same correction factor as a 505hp LS7. It will produce over 500ftlbs SAE, with over 400 available from 2700-7000 rpm. It will be assembled with high quality parts that we have tested for durability, Callies crank and rods with Mahle pistons. It will have a slightly choppy idle at 800rpm and pull clean to 7000rpm. It will be dyno tested with power audit supplied with every engine. It will weigh under 400 pounds. In standard corrected dyno terms, the engine will churn out 575hp with 529ftlbs.
It seems the prices are higher than a gen1 engine this is true, but price a gen1 without Chinese parts and with an alum block and it will be close. If you want a cheaper engine that is still a gen3 with its many other positive features, it can be done with a iron block and certain stock components re-used.


Kurt

Ralph LoGrasso
01-06-2006, 04:40 PM
Sorry to jack the thread.

I see the idea of a "decent" cam for an ls1 being used alot. If you post up on the ls1 sites about what a "decent" cam is you get as many opinions as you get answers.

I've read alot of good things about 224/224'-.581" cams. Are these the ones that give the 450hp with longtubes?
I have a 99 FRC with long tubes and ls6 heads(not installed) that I want to "improve" power wise without ruining the car as a driver. What would you recommend?

Are you referring to flywheel hp or rear wheel hp? If you're talking about rwhp, then no. That cam and LS6 heads will not get you there. If you're talking about fly wheel hp, then you might get there with long tubes, the LS6 heads and that cam.

224/224 is a baby cam by todays standards. It should make decent power, idle real nice, and it's a proven cam; but if you're out for bigger gains, you might want to go with a little bit larger cam. I suggest you do lots of reading on LS1tech and see what other people are running, what numbers they're making, etc. There are 100s of cam choices for LSX cars.

WS6
01-06-2006, 07:02 PM
get the LS6 heads ported and youlll easily hit 450 at the crank with that cam. you can hit 400 at the wheels with AFR205s, a stealth cam(218duration range, ie tiny), and full exhaust. since your a 99 youll also need an LS6 intake. dont waste your money on the FAST intake. its just not worth the price tag for you.

as for cam choices, do your reading and dont just look at the cams look at the specs and understand what those numbers mean. find a car show or club in the area with a good selection of LS engines and sit in those cars or go for rides in those cars. some people find 230+duration cams perfectly fine. others may think your nuts for driving it everyday.

oh and the aboslute most important thing to look at is where the cam makes its power. a lot of people put cams into LS engines that will make power way into the upper RPMs because the peak numbers sound so nice. that may not be were you need to make your power if you for instance autocross the car. if you do you need major mid range power and torque not top end power. your peak numbers will be lower but the car will perform better for the purposes you intend to use it. of course if you can have it all then by all means have it all. the engines are very capable.

gen3bu
01-07-2006, 04:53 PM
my ls1 build tally so far:

ls1 long block (warrantied for cold piston slap) $50.00

317 6.0 heads $300.00

sold my 241 heads -$250.00

smoothed and painted intake with rails, stainless bolts, an fittings, and all accy brackets $225.00

t56 trans with shifter/knob, innner/outer boots, mount, bell, bolts, poly tq arm mount $450.00 (shipping was $214.00)

gm mls head gaskets $free (packaging mistake)

ls1 throttle body $free (warranty take off for carbon build-up/sticking at idle)

that is $775 total so far and granted it does not run yet, but is is much cheaper than the gen 1 in my dd!

67LS1T56
01-07-2006, 10:11 PM
I bought my 2001 LS1 in 2003 out of a WS6 Trans Am with 6 speed all trhe acc. comp. and wiring harnes for 4500 with 27000 miles on it.
I love fuel inj. and hate carbs. so i had to buy LS1. Convertion does not cost that much most expensive being the headers but i'm using the stock egzost manifolds on them. Having 6 speed is a plus also.

MarkM66
01-09-2006, 07:39 AM
It weighs about 230 lbs less than an SBC with iron heads.


How much does a complete LS1 weight?

Or how much is just the bare block? Set of heads?

Ralph LoGrasso
01-09-2006, 07:32 PM
I'm pretty sure a complete LS1 is in the 360-380lbs range, but I may be mistaken.

MarkM66
01-11-2006, 08:49 AM
Just wondering, as a 230lb difference seems high to me. I'll give the LSX 100lb difference for the block, but I don't see 130lb difference in heads etc.

Steve Chryssos
01-11-2006, 09:51 AM
Tony,
I hate posting in the engine section because some rocket scientist usually argues with me just for the sake of argument. But since Yody is gone, :jump: I'll give it a try.

Most folks don't know the real reason why the LSx engines are so damn good. So I will provide an anecdotal comparison in laymen's terms so that everyone gets it.

The LSx technology is really not anything new. In 1988, you could get what were called Dart "Buick" conversion heads for your small block Chevy. What? Buick, huh? Forget the name. It's irrelevant. What these heads offered were the following:
-Shallow valve angle: 14 degree as opposed to the stock 23 degree
-Raised Intake ports
-Spread, symmetrical intake and exhaust ports (as opposed to the standard siamesed port locations)
-Small fast burn chambers (No. GM did not invent that term. Still pisses me off)

The heads flat out made killer power. They were commissioned by--you guessed it--Buick for NASCAR use. But the bare castings alone cost about $3500. Exclusive race car limited production stuff. And they came semi-finished so that each engine builder could machine and port them to their own specs. More $$$ THEN you had to buy conversion pistons, conversion intake, conversion headers and Jesel rockershaft valvetrain to accomodate the revised valve angle and port locations. All told the typical conversion engines started at $35K. Other conversion applications followed. Probably the most well know is the Dart Big Chief (aka Pontiac) big block conversion heads. All or most of these projects were funded by GM racing and produced by aftermarket
casting manufacturers for use in NASCAR, Pro Stock, etc. The GM Pontiac big block head program was dropped by GM when the money switched from Pontiac to Oldsmobile--hence the "Big Chief" name.

Whew! Are ya still with me? Sooo what GM has done here is take all that tried and true exclusive race engine technology and put into every V8 car and truck falling off an assembly line. Economies of scale. When you buy an LSx, you are getting shallow valve angles, raised and spread symmetrical ports and other stuff aluminum block castings for assembly line prices. So for a true apples to apples comparison, you really need to compare that LSx engine to a minimum $35K gen one small block. Bargain of the century!! Folks argue the Gen1 vs LSx max power all day long. That's silly. It's where and how in the rpm band it happens. Here the LSx kicks ass because of that technology. I'll say it again the answer to your question is:

-Shallow valve angle: 14 degree as opposed to the Gen1's 23 degree
-Raised Intake ports (straighter shot to valve)
-Spread, symmetrical intake and exhaust ports (as opposed to the standard siamesed intake and exhaust port locations)
-Small fast burn chambers (available on aftermarket GEN1heads as well, but the other stuff is where the big investment comes from

Questions are welcome.

Travis B
01-11-2006, 10:07 AM
great info steve.....someone should sticky that at the top of the LSx area

Damn True
01-11-2006, 10:08 AM
Ok here is something that I have wonderd about regarding LSx engines.

I think it is an accepted truth that it is far easier and less expensive to take an LSx from bone stock to 500hp+ than it is with a Gen I smallblock. The thing I keep seeing though are power curves that look more like a GSXR than a Buick GS. By that I mean that most of the builds I have seen in the mags (AFR heads + Cam + Intake + FAST or similar controller) wind up with peak power up around 6500-6800rpm and a relatively peaky Q curve as well.

Is this a function of that type of head, or builders that are looking for big sexy peak numbers instead of high average numbers and flat Q curves.

I'll grab some links to dyno charts and edit this in a few minutes.

Damn True
01-11-2006, 10:21 AM
Well, CHP hasn't updated their tech article database in a while so the articles I'm refering to aren't there.

harshman
01-11-2006, 12:22 PM
dammit i hate reading this

must resist....



too tempting...



gen....x...ls....

Well for me it seems that us gen1ers know very well the beauties of 18 degree heads and now you guys throw the whole 14 degree thing into the equation and I'm still scared but seeing the light.

So can I still touch these LS whatever you call them? As in is the cam/lifters/intake accessible and can you swap things out as easy as a gen1? What about radiators does the standard gen1 type still work?

Ralph LoGrasso
01-11-2006, 07:04 PM
great info steve.....someone should sticky that at the top of the LSx area


I copied the post and stuck it atop the forum, good idea.

WS6
01-12-2006, 06:38 PM
Damn True basically because one higher numbers sale more parts and two because the heads flow so very well up top. the flow numbers on the LS heads at .600 lift should be over 300 or else the heads are not ported/built correctly. the heads can easily handle a high lift cam. the modern PCMs can handle a tight LSA with long duration(ie lots of overlap) cams. this all spells high RPM powerbands.

however be careful as to what cams your looking at. not too long ago both LG motorsports and Thunder Racing came out with cam only numbers claiming nearly 450rwhp. well a huge debate, actually arguement, errupted on LS1 tech.com. the LG cam won because it was not as peaky as the Thunder cam. it actually made good mid range and some low end power. it also made the cars faster at the track where as the Thunder cam to my knowledge has not proven itself anywhere but on the dyno. that may have changed by now. i havent kept up. both these cams where 110/112 LSA with 240+duration and over .600 lift. they also can both be driven on the street if you can handle the loping.

so if you actually care where you make your power on the LS engines youll need to give up overall numbers and simply research which cam fits your needs. the LS makes power everywhere honestly. even the old small cams that first cam out make great midrange power and still have really good top end power. give it a great rainbow curve.

Damn True
01-13-2006, 09:03 AM
Thanks for the explaination.

I really think that for what I want to do with the car a hp/Q curve like this see Test 2
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

would best suit my needs. This is from the "Impersonator II" 406 build that CHP did a year or so ago. http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0401_imp/index.html

If I could recreate something like this on the LSx platform I'd be psyched.

WS6
01-14-2006, 03:42 PM
very nice numbers. getting the torque up that high on a stock cubed LS is not going to be easy. many of the cams out there for the LS that post great HP numbers don't post such great TQ numbers. so a stroker is a must at this point. AFR 205s should be able to feed a 382 no problem. as for cam i really can't say. I have not bothered to even look into stroker LS motors. it does so well in stock size id never want to stroke one. that's just me though

Damn True
01-31-2006, 02:58 PM
What about using an 6L engine to gain a little displacement over the 5.3 and 5.7 litre engines?

I'm willing to consider going to an LS if I can get a broad fat Q curve and peak hp at a reasonable RPM level. Thinking Ducati engine rather than GSXR.

If not....it's Gen I for me.

Ralph LoGrasso
01-31-2006, 03:05 PM
What about using an 6L engine to gain a little displacement over the 5.3 and 5.7 litre engines?

I'm willing to consider going to an LS if I can get a broad fat Q curve and peak hp at a reasonable RPM level. Thinking Ducati engine rather than GSXR.

If not....it's Gen I for me.


The LS2 is 6L, or you could go with an iron block 6L (more weight, but cheaper to buy / build). There are a lot of cam choices for LSX cars. Most guys go with cams that peak real high, but there are some real nice street cams out there with flat TQ curves and good low - mid range power.

Damn True
01-31-2006, 03:09 PM
You know of any dyno sheets posted anywhere to support that?

Ralph LoGrasso
01-31-2006, 03:12 PM
You know of any dyno sheets posted anywhere to support that?

There's a dyno results section on LS1tech that has tons and tons of results. It's a good place to see what your heads / cam combo will do, since it's most likely already been done by someone else and posted. I'll try to dig through a few of them later when I read 'tech; if I find a good example, I'll post it.

USAZR1
02-07-2006, 08:16 PM
Ok,let's say I want to do an LSx swap in my car. Tranny is a D&D T56 and the engine is 1st gen sbc. What would I have to do to retain the D&D? Don't want a weaker LS1 T56 and don't really want the hassle of a hydraulic clutch.

The biggest obstacle for me doing a swap like that is the complexity and time to do it. Honestly,how long have some of you had your cars down and out of action?

Taylor1969
02-07-2006, 08:29 PM
From all the research I have done - if you have all the parts lined up and ready to go they are pretty easy to do. The hardest part has to be the wiring. You can prepare that before even taking your car out of commission. I would think that it could be done on a long weekend if you have all the parts ready to go.


Ok,let's say I want to do an LSx swap in my car. Tranny is a D&D T56 and the engine is 1st gen sbc. What would I have to do to retain the D&D? Don't want a weaker LS1 T56 and don't really want the hassle of a hydraulic clutch.

The biggest obstacle for me doing a swap like that is the complexity and time to do it. Honestly,how long have some of you had your cars down and out of action?

OldSchoolFormula
02-07-2006, 08:46 PM
Since I am now contemplating an LS1 swap in my '73, I was wondering if anyone had any mileage numbers after the conversion? I'll be going with an automatic...

scogin918
02-08-2006, 04:51 AM
Just to clear up a few misconceptions in here, ebay is the absolute worst (read: most expensive) place to shop for an LSX motor. Classified sections on LS1tech.com, this site, and others.


Two years ago, I bought my LS1/t56 with manifolds, pulleys, all accessories minus the power steering pump, wiring harness and computer for $4500. It had 4800 miles on it and I got to hear it run before I bought it. Build a complete small block with all of the accessories that makes the same kind of power and you'll be real close to what I paid if not over. It all depends on what YOU want for YOUR car. Cost becomes a compromise at that point.
I used a local "trading" paper to find it. I'm just testifying to the fact that it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg to go the LSX route.

USAZR1
02-08-2006, 11:48 AM
Is your car running and driving now,Robert?

Damn True
02-08-2006, 12:34 PM
Are there road-race capable PS pumps available for the LSx architecture?

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/power_steering/power_steering.html

They mention SBC and BBC, but not specificly LSx. Would one of these fit in the space available on the front of an LSx, or is there similarly capable a pump supplied by someone else that would?

Ralph LoGrasso
02-08-2006, 12:58 PM
I'm not sure on the pump (though I don't think there are aftermarket ones available yet) but the SS' and WS6's have a nice PS cooler that a lot of people have shown interest in adapting to the older platforms (David Pozzi mentioned it in another thread). I'm fairly sure the factory PS pump is sufficient for most 4th gen auto-x and open trackers.

Travis B
02-08-2006, 02:00 PM
Are there road-race capable PS pumps available for the LSx architecture?

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/power_steering/power_steering.html

They mention SBC and BBC, but not specificly LSx. Would one of these fit in the space available on the front of an LSx, or is there similarly capable a pump supplied by someone else that would?


we used an aftermarket pump on the LS1 powered nomad we just built...looked identical to the one you just posted a pic of. We just machined our own bracket it worked just fine

scogin918
02-08-2006, 04:47 PM
USAZR1 - It runs, but no go. I just put my name on the list for the AFX spindles from T56KIT.com and am waiting on Hydratech, Precison Brakes, and Ron Davis among others. Right now I'm running the permanent fuel lines. Once the parts are installed and some minor fabrication issues are solved she'll be ready to paint.

Damn True
10-02-2006, 03:48 PM
Ive been drooling over Rupp's dyno results for the last couple of days but one thing kinda jiggles my beans.

Is there any way to bring the peak hp and Q numbers down the scale a bit without lowering them? It would be nice to hit that peak hp and Q about 300-400 rpm lower just in terms of long term durability of the engine.

WS6
10-02-2006, 06:27 PM
Never mind I wasn't looking at Steve's dyno numbers. I was looking at the 406s at the top of this page

Damn True
10-04-2006, 04:51 PM
Assuming one finds a complete setup (engine, accys, intake, harness ECU, trans) is there any reason NOT to use the OE ECU rather than something from FAST or any other?

andrewb70
10-04-2006, 05:06 PM
Assuming one finds a complete setup (engine, accys, intake, harness ECU, trans) is there any reason NOT to use the OE ECU rather than something from FAST or any other?

The OEM computer is the best one to use in all but the most extreme applications.

Andrew