Can lifters go bad? Need advice

[DarkoNova]

Little bit of backstory.

Around 2010 I decided to do heads, cam, and intake on my 69 Nova. I was also replacing seals and gaskets when I saw how bad the bearings were, so it turned into a full on rebuild.

Took longer than expected, but around 2013 it was finally done. Broke in the cam and drove it for a month or so, when someone rear ended me. So I parked the car for a while. 2016, I took it to a shop for bodywork.

Finally, around February 2018, I got it back and have been working on getting it up and running. I got it back on the road and the engine is tapping. Diagnosed it as noisy lifters.

So I adjusted the valves and the tapping turned to more of a sewing machine sound.

But maybe 5 minutes later, it was back to tapping.

The next day, I adjusted the valves again, and I was adjusting the exhaust valve on cylinder 2. Got it to zero lash and then went another quarter turn. Tightened up the nut and poly lock, and not even a minute later, for some reason I thought I'd check the rocker and it was loose again.

So basically, I'm wondering if the engine sitting for so long might have killed the lifters?

From 2013-2016 it was sitting in my driveway.

From then to 2018 when it was in the body shop, the shop said they only ever started it to move it around.

So basically 5 years of sitting.

The cam is a Comp XE274H, with matching lifters.

My buddy has some brand new Edelbrock lifters that he's willing to let me use. Can I just throw them in, break them in and be good to go?

[cornfedbill]

That's a new one. I've never heard of lifters going bad. Do you have roller lifters or flat tappet lifters?

Roller lifters are pretty robust, but flat tappet lifters can stop rotating and wear quite fast causing them to become loose. They will wear grooves in the contact surface of the lifter and will wear the lobes of the cam until they are round. I had that happen to me before. It is not uncommon. If this is the case, you need to replace the cam and lifters then break them in again.

When you first start the motor, make sure the pushrods are rotating with the engine idling and the valve covers removed. If they are not rotating, you can give them a twist (carefully) until they rotate for themselves.

The other issue that I have seen is the studs. If they are the stock type press in studs that are found in small block iron heads, they canl back out. Once they start, they keep moving. The fix is to install screw-in studs.

[DarkoNova]

At least I'm not alone! I'd never heard of lifters going bad either, lol.

It's a hydraulic flat tappet cam.

I didn't check the pushrods the last time I had the valve covers off, but hopefully this weekend I'll get to take the covers off and look.

The heads are Edelbrocks, so I'm not sure what kind of studs they use. I'd hope they upgraded to screw in, but I could be wrong.

[rustomatic]

It's a small block Ford tradition. Sometimes, the pressure just won't keep things up . . .

[Zachalanche]

iron block and aluminum heads? the pre-load may not be enough to compensate for thermal expansion. I do know that the recommended preload changes depending on whether you have aluminum block & heads, Iron block & heads, or some combination of the 2. depending on application it can be as much as 1 full turn after zero lash. That being said, I have gotten away with incorrect preloads in the past. Hydraulic lifters tend to be pretty forgiving. I'd start by inspecting your lifters for wear, and if they pass a visual test, verify you are using the correct preload, and if you are then maybe investigate the possibility that oil is either not getting to the lifters, or, is not staying in the lifters. Maybe there is too much lifter to bore clearance?

[cornfedbill]

At least I'm not alone! I'd never heard of lifters going bad either, lol.

It's a hydraulic flat tappet cam.

I didn't check the pushrods the last time I had the valve covers off, but hopefully this weekend I'll get to take the covers off and look.

The heads are Edelbrocks, so I'm not sure what kind of studs they use. I'd hope they upgraded to screw in, but I could be wrong.

if they are Edelbrock aluminum heads, I would be shocked if the studs were not screw-in. You may want to put a wrench on them to make sure they are tight.

When you take things apart, look at the contact face of the lifters to see if there is a groove from running without rotating. This would mean you need a new cam and lifters.

We started a '55 Bel Air with the original engine after sitting for nearly 3 decades with no issues. Lifters just don't go bad normally.

What is your oil pressure? Is it too low?

I am interested to see what you find. This has me a bit perplexed.

[DarkoNova]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I remember seeing the hex fitting on the rocker studs, so they're screw in.

I don't know the preload spec, I just tried zero lash + up to half a turn, and it still went loose. Comp's site isn't the greatest, but I'll see if I can find an actual spec.

Oil is definitely getting to each rocker, but I don't remember if any we're getting less than any of the others.

Oil pressure when warmed up is 20psi at 800rpm idle, 40psi at 2000rpm.

This weekend I need to finish the clutch on my daily, but I'll try to do some investigating on the Nova, too.

Edit: Wow, I did a quick Google search for "12-246-3 preload" because that's the cam grind I have. I found a thread on another forum where someone had the same cam and heads and he did a half turn past zero and had a bunch of chatter. Apparently the spec from Comp is one full turn past zero lash. He did that and it's nice and quiet now.

So I guess I'll try one full turn.

[DarkoNova]

So, I finally tried one full turn.

No go.

I'm assuming the valves were kept open at that point because the engine wouldn't even start. Just cranked and cranked.

Backed down to a half turn past zero lash and now it runs again.

One thing I noticed while adjusting the valves is that some of the rockers look crooked. I can try to get a picture, but it's pretty obvious on some of them. I'm kind of wondering if the pushrods aren't the right length and maybe that's causing the noise.

I vaguely remember checking pushrod length when building this engine and it was close enough to stock that I just ordered stock. But all I did was color the tip of the valve stem and look at the mark that was made after a couple revolutions. I left the stock springs in the head. After doing some research, it looks like you're supposed to use lighter springs.

I may order some lightweight springs and check again.

This may be a geometry issue.

[oleyeller]

Have you checked your oil for metal? Sounds like you may have wiped out your cam. Roll it over and check the lift, sounds like they may all be a little different.
I hope that is not the case. Cams do go bad and take lifters with them.
Just a thought.

[Kenova]

Have you checked your oil for metal? Sounds like you may have wiped out your cam. Roll it over and check the lift, sounds like they may all be a little different.
I hope that is not the case. Cams do go bad and take lifters with them.
Just a thought.

I found this to be the case with my Nova last week. Noisy rockers and constantly adjusting them.
Drop and drain your oil filter and cut it open. I ran a small magnet through the pleats of the filter and wiped it on a clean paper towel. The metal shavings were very easy to see.
I then checked each lifter and found half of them with a slightly pitted wear pattern in the middle of the face. It should be mirror smooth. I took the worse one to a machinist friend who simply said "It's screwed".
I'll be pulling the engine to check the bearings. Hopefully the filter caught the majority of the shavings.
As if our summers aren't short enough.

Hope your luck is better than mine.

Ken

[DarkoNova]

So I now have an adjustable pushrod to check for the correct length, lightweight springs to check the pushrod length, and a dial indicator.

My coworker swears that I just need to put stock rockers on and my problems will be solved, but I'm not convinced.

I want to measure the cam lobes but I don't want to pull the intake because I have to do the work in the street and I've had the cops called on me for having a car parked in the same spot for too long. I don't want that happening again. So I was thinking of pulling the valve covers and rocker arms, and mounting some flat steel to the heads to mount the magnetic base for the dial indicator. Then putting the tip of the indicator in the hole of the pushrod.

That should give me a correct reading, I think.

Opinions?

If you guys don't think it will be accurate enough, I'm going to take the car to a friend's house and pull the intake because he has a massive garage and says I can park it in there and work on it whenever I can.

[DarkoNova]

So I pulled the passenger side valve cover and tried to measure a few cam lobes. It was harder than I thought because the dial indicator I have isn't as long or flexible as I thought it would be, and I have more aluminum parts than I thought, lol.

I managed to do the exhaust valves on cylinders 4 and 6 since the header primaries made a pretty good base to put the dial indicator base on.

The specs from Comp say the lobe lift for the exhaust side of my cam is .327.

I pulled the rockers and put the dial indicator in the oil hole of the pushrod and turned the engine over. I got .326 for both valves, so either I've lost .001" on those lobes, or it's just an inaccuracy from the way I was measuring. I'm leaning toward the latter.

My rockers are still pretty crooked, so next I'll have to swap the valve springs for the lightweight ones and check the pushrod length.

[DarkoNova]

So a bit of an update. I've noticed that the rockers were crooked on basically all the valves, but the general consensus via Google is that a little bit of crookedness is normal for sbc rocker arms.

I didn't like that answer, so I did some inspecting.

It looked like there was plenty of room to move the pushrods to get the rockers straight so the roller is straight on the valve tip but the guide plates were in the way.

So I took them off.

Magically, my rockers are straight.

I've attached before and after pictures, and these rockers weren't even the most crooked!

So I ordered some adjustable guide plates. They should be here some time next week. I doubt they'll fix the valves not staying adjusted, but I'm hoping they'll fix the tapping noise. I'm thinking the noise was actually the sides of the rocker arm that, I guess "contain" the roller tip, were hitting the valve tips, causing the tapping noise.

I just got home from work, so, naturally, I didn't think to look at the roller tip for any evidence of wear marks or damage.

Anyway, onto the pictures!

With the solid guide plates and crooked rockers:

154236

154238

154237

Without the guide plates and straight rockers:

154239

154240

154241

[cornfedbill]

Wow, those were pretty crooked. I hope the new guide plates will help.

[Dc2x4drvr]

Are your pushrods hardened for use with guide plates?

[DarkoNova]

Yeah, I'm almost positive I got hardened pushrods.

Actually, yeah, I pulled one of the pushrods this morning when I pulled the guide plate and it said Comp 7812. I just looked it up and it says it's for use with guide plates.

[vette427-sbc]

One thing that Ive noticed that seems to go unchecked is the poly locks... Im now considering them a consumable after 10 or so stretches (ie: tightened)... On a hydraulic cam where you arent adjusting valves this usually takes quite a long time, but for solid cams where they are loosened and tightened many times for lash check/adjustments they will eventually crack under the head. Just had a solid roller car come in that kept gaining lash (~.003") and found about 6 of the locks were cracked... Called another customer that we knew had a solid roller cam to swap his locks since we knew he had about 8 lash checks on this set and sure enough... one was cracked. Likely not your issue, but I figured it was worth throwing it out there...

[DarkoNova]

Update time.

Got the engine out and started the clean up/tear down and found a couple things.

First, the #2 intake lifter had no retainer for the internal piston. I should have gotten a picture of it in the block, but I didn't. I did take the lifter apart to see what was inside because I've never seen a lifter in pieces, but I did put it back together and snapped a pic. The internal piston is sticking out a lot higher than it was when it was in the engine, now, so it didn't look as crazy as it does in this picture.

155451

What I'm worried about is if the valve was hitting the piston? I think there's some kind of pressure relief in the lifters to keep them from over pressurising, but I'm not sure. I don't want to pull the head, so I'm going to use a borescope to check out the valve and piston. If that doesn't get me a clear enough picture, I'll end up pulling the head.

Then, when pulling the cam, the front bearing had some wear. I don't know if this is acceptable or if I'm going to need to replace them.

Thoughts?

155452

All of the lifters looked good. Basically a mirror finish on the face that rides the cam. The sides of basically all of them were scored, though. Probably because my rockers were crooked due to the pushrod guide plates not allowing the pushrods to line up properly.

More to come when I tear it down more.

[David Pozzi]

One thing that Ive noticed that seems to go unchecked is the poly locks... Im now considering them a consumable after 10 or so stretches (ie: tightened)... On a hydraulic cam where you arent adjusting valves this usually takes quite a long time, but for solid cams where they are loosened and tightened many times for lash check/adjustments they will eventually crack under the head. Just had a solid roller car come in that kept gaining lash (~.003") and found about 6 of the locks were cracked... Called another customer that we knew had a solid roller cam to swap his locks since we knew he had about 8 lash checks on this set and sure enough... one was cracked. Likely not your issue, but I figured it was worth throwing it out there...

We saw cracking on the nuts on a race car I was crewing on. We were advised it was due to the stock GM stud tips that were not machined flat. ARP machines there stud tips flat.

[David Pozzi]

Update time.

Got the engine out and started the clean up/tear down and found a couple things.

First, the #2 intake lifter had no retainer for the internal piston. I should have gotten a picture of it in the block, but I didn't. I did take the lifter apart to see what was inside because I've never seen a lifter in pieces, but I did put it back together and snapped a pic. The internal piston is sticking out a lot higher than it was when it was in the engine, now, so it didn't look as crazy as it does in this picture.

155451

What I'm worried about is if the valve was hitting the piston? I think there's some kind of pressure relief in the lifters to keep them from over pressurising, but I'm not sure. I don't want to pull the head, so I'm going to use a borescope to check out the valve and piston. If that doesn't get me a clear enough picture, I'll end up pulling the head.

Then, when pulling the cam, the front bearing had some wear. I don't know if this is acceptable or if I'm going to need to replace them.

Thoughts?

155452

All of the lifters looked good. Basically a mirror finish on the face that rides the cam. The sides of basically all of them were scored, though. Probably because my rockers were crooked due to the pushrod guide plates not allowing the pushrods to line up properly.

More to come when I tear it down more.

I hear the round wire snap rings don’t stay in as well as tru-arc type.

[DarkoNova]

Bumping this up because I'm assembling the new valvetrain and have some questions.

I'm using a solid lifter cam now, and the lash specs are .012" intake and .020" exhaust. I'm not sure if I should use those specs for the initial break-in since it specifies hot lash. I did some googling and it looks like the general consensus for an iron block with aluminum heads is to subtract about .005" for cold lash.

So right now I have it at .008" intake and .015" exhaust.

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to subtract instead of add for cold lash but maybe one of you can shed some light on that.

Also, I have full roller rockers and now because of the lash of the solid lifters, the rockers are able to move side to side a bit on the valve tip. I'm not 100% comfortable with that but it doesn't look like there's any way to stop it.

Is it even ok to run solid lifters with roller rockers?

I have guideplates but the little bit of wiggle room comes from the slack between the pushrods and the guideplates.

Like I said, it doesn't look like there's any way to eliminate that slack with the solid lifters.

Any advice/opinions welcome!

[DarkoNova]

Actually, what about self aligning rockers?

I only see them used on vortec heads, but is there any reason I can't use them on standard heads?

That would solve the side to side movement when the lifters are on the heel of the cam.