The C5/10

[bbalch404]

Hey Everyone,
Ok, so I have been working on this project for a while and am just now getting to writing it up. This is my first build so the progress has been slow due to the learning curve and life in general.

This project started out as a simple pro touring build, comprised of an LS swap and bolt on parts, but it has evolved into a lot more than that.... With the help of some very talented friends who are also bad influences, we are building an autocross/pro touring focused truck on a full custom chassis utilizing C5 Corvette suspension (Hence the name of the truck, The C5/10). I know we aren't the first to build a truck to do car things, but I think we have some pretty unique ideas that will make for a very competitive piece when we are done. The goal of this project has always been to build a pro touring truck, the magnitude of how far we are taking it has changed drastically. So let's get into it.

Let's start with the vision...This is the end goal:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/02/4FkLeRR-1.jpg?1



And here is where we started...

I picked up this beautiful piece of vintage American engineering, a 1972 C10 short bed, in September of 2016.

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The motivation behind building a truck to do all of this instead of the typical Camaro, corvette, etc was because I was told “you can’t race a truck.” So being stubborn as I am, I decided to set out to prove them wrong. I have always wanted to build a 67-72 C10 but I have no experience restoring vehicles or building hot rods. I am a mechanical engineer by trade, I worked in the motorsports industry, and grew up wrenching on various things. But I have never restored a vehicle from the ground up.

Long story short, I bought a basket case and way overpaid for it. I had no idea what to look for when I went looked at it. I was excited about finally finding a short bed 67-72 C10 that I could afford which made me overlook a lot of red flags. It was just a rolling chassis, no motor or trans. One of the previous owners (not the guy I bought it from) was very skilled at hiding rot/bondo/etc. But hey, you have to learn lessons somehow, right. Well, I got taken to school on this one. The more parts I took off, the more rust I found.

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The entire bed went to the scrap yard, minus the front panel. I began trying to repair the floors, rockers, cab corners but soon learned that this cab was far beyond my skill set. A guy I know, that was providing guidance on rebuilding the cab, had an extra cab that was in much better shape than the one I was trying to save. He gave me a decent deal on it so it was a no-brainer. Having to start over wasn’t all negative though, I learned A LOT on the first cab.

So before I got a new cab I came across a deal on an engine I couldn't pass on. I picked up a 5.3L LM7 from a friend's dad. I had it delivered to my work to utilize the loading dock and fork lift. I brought it home, got it cleaned up and ready to be torn down for the head/cam work that it will be receiving.

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I had also started fixing the rust on the stock frame..... before we decided to build a full frame. But since we won't be using the stock frame, that was sold.

Once I finally got the new cab I began tearing into that. I will save that for the next post...

[bbalch404]

So once I got the new cab, I began cutting out the rust and welding in new metal. Here are some pictures of that process.

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Onto the driver's side:


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And shortly after that last picture was taken, I am talking 5 minutes or less, my wife went into labor and we were on our way to the hospital to welcome our first child into this world!

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That put the truck on hold for a few weeks, obviously.

To be continued.....

[Motoracer838]

It sucks to buy what looks to be a complete truck only to scrap most of it.

Congrats on the birth of your child.

Joe

[bbalch404]

Thanks Joe!

Yea I definitely learned my lesson on this one lol. Live and learn.

More updates to come hopefully tonight.

[bbalch404]

Post 3:

So after our son was born, I didn't have a lot of time to spend in the shop, so we got to more of the fine detail planning. The original plan was to go with a LS motor, T-56, 9 inch rear, front drop member kit and a rear step notch, full coilovers, and keep things as light weight as possible. However, that plan quickly changed. Some friends of mine, Adam and Alan from Skoons Hot Rods, built a Chevelle that was a full custom chassis that utilized a C5 Corvette drivetrain and suspension. Well, long story short, they convinced me to do a full frame with C5 Corvette suspension. We are still working out the details of the drive line (specifically what we are using for the rear diff).

So once we decided on this direction for sure, we started designing the frame. The first thing we did was measure the stock chassis with a ROMER Arm. For those of you who don't know what that it, it is a portable Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM), sold by Hexagon Manufacturing Intelligence. These things are super accurate (can measure to about 0.001”-0.003") and can measure just about anything. They are typically used in a quality control or reverse engineering role. The arm we used has a laser scanner on it so you can gather several hundred thousand data points per second. Probably a bit overkill for this but hey, utilize the resources you can right?! We measured the frame rails, body mounts, axle center-lines, firewall, and just about anything else that is important.

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Then I gave all of this data to Adam and he began the CAD design.

While I was at it, I laser scanned the T56 transmission and Gen5 Camaro rear diff so we could use those for modeling purposes as well.

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Also picked up the C5 suspension from VettePros in Charlotte, NC.

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Hope to begin building the chassis this spring/summer. That's it for tonight, more updates to come tomorrow.

[rlovell383]

Following along!

[beater65]

So in my initial quest for suspension information. I was chatting with Mark from SC&C and he mentioned in our conversation about guys using vette suspensions in muscle cars etc and it just doesn't work, because the suspension was engineered for a corvette weight/CG etc... and it just isn't built to handle correctly when tossed into early chassis. I think of all the threads I've read, and info ive seen. I would contact Ron Sutton with your plans/designs before they are finalized in steel.

I'm not an expert, but its something maybe to chew into deeper before you have a ton of money into a custom chassis with vette stuff that just isn't going to work as good as maybe another option/setup.

[stab6902]

I'd be interested to hear from those who think using C5/C6 suspension in a muscle car/truck would be a bad idea. I think it could be made to work great with a few "minor" changes.

To maintain Corvette-like handling characteristics in a C10 (or almost any muscle car build) with a C5/C6 suspension, you will certainly have to increase spring and sway bar rates to compensate for:
- Higher weight
- Higher center of gravity
- Greater track width (for trucks, there will likely be more "leverage" on the suspension from wheels with less positive offset)

Stiffer C5/C6 springs, sway bars, and shocks are readily available from the aftermarket. You'd have to do some math to determine what rates you need based on your vehicle's weights, CG height, desired ride frequency, and desired roll stiffness. If you tried to use stock C5 rates on a C10, the truck would feel soft and wallowy and likely not have enough suspension travel. Vette's can get away with relatively low rates because of their light weight and low CG; that's why people are impressed with how the handle great and still ride good. A truck will never handle as good as a Vette AND ride as good; you will have to give up something due to the higher CG.

If the truck turns out to be close to 4000 lbs with tall sticky tires, you could argue that the hard parts of the C5 suspension (A-arms, spindles, hubs) would be under much more stress than they were designed for, which is a fair point. For what it's worth, there are Corvette race cars running slicks and aero that pull way over 1G and stay together, so you could probably get away with it.

Despite the above concerns, the C5 suspension will have great geometry that you'd be hard pressed to beat, and since you're doing both the front and rear, the roll centers, camber curves, etc will complement each other nicely.

That said, I don't have any first hand experience doing this type of swap, so I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

[Typhoon1015]

Following. I am researching for close to the same build plan as you.

[bbalch404]

Justin,
Just watch what we do then do the opposite lol.

I will have more pictures to post either later tonight or tomorrow.

If you want to see a car that the guys at Skoons Hot Rods built that utilizes the Corvette stuff, check out their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Skoons-Hot-Rods-438635269525594/.

[bs46488]

Following....because I like your thinking on this project.

[Typhoon1015]

I have seen the Chevelle at LSfest, but did not do a thorough look. I'm sure you have most of the design stuff covered. I need to borrow the your CMM and CAD files :)

I have been involved with a C5 swap in a corvair over the last year or so, but truck fitment may be different. I wont have much time to start the project until summer, since the truck is stuck in the snow.



Justin,
Just watch what we do then do the opposite lol.



I will have more pictures to post either later tonight or tomorrow.

If you want to see a car that the guys at Skoons Hot Rods built that utilizes the Corvette stuff, check out their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Skoons-Hot-Rods-438635269525594/.

[bbalch404]

Justin,
Just watch what we do then do the opposite lol.

I will have more pictures to post either later tonight or tomorrow.

If you want to see a car that the guys at Skoons Hot Rods built that utilizes the Corvette stuff, check out their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Skoons-Hot-Rods-438635269525594/.

[JustJohn]

Nice project. I have an 85 short bed I can't seem to find time for...

[bbalch404]

So after picking up the suspension I got back to work finishing up a lot of the metal work on the cab. I filled the stock fuel filler hole and since I am not running A/C in this truck I filled those holes on the firewall. I am also doing some sort of custom dash that works better with the cage so the stock dash was removed and I replaced the metal on the back side of the lip where the windshield sits.

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Just threw some rattle can paint on it to keep it from rusting until i get the rest of the fab work done on the cab and can start body working it.

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I also repaired the kick panels.

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Now its time to move on to repairing the rusty doors....yay. Once I have that done, I will post the pictures.

Also, my seats should be here tomorrow, so we will be getting the roll cage started soon as well.

Stay tuned...

[JJK]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/02/f9F9Pb0-1.jpg?1


What are these?

[bbalch404]

Those are just magnets that have an on/off switch. You see them used a lot to hold dial indicators and such. They just had a bit more bite than my old worn out welding magnets.

[Tig]

This is going to be good. I love the rendering.

Congrats on your newborn but, you didn't mention if it was a boy or a girl or the name.

That CMM is pretty bad ass and makes things a heck of a lot easier. Lucky guy.

You're a brave man to remove the A/C, we get some hot summer days here in NC.

[bbalch404]

So just to update you all. This project is still moving forward but not too many updates worth posting lately. My wife and I ended up having to do a kitchen remodel due to a faulty dishwasher, so that took precedence over the truck for the last few months. Also, I've been busy working on and autocrossing my FRS ('tis the season!). But focus is slowly shifting back to the truck as time allows.

As far as the C10 goes, the major frame design is done! I am sure there will be minor tweaks here and there but we are ordering steel this week to start building the frame! Should have some good things to post soon.

[bbalch404]

It has been a while since I last posted an update on this project but it is still alive. Had a lot going on lately that has limited the amount of time I could dedicate to the truck. Work trips, home repairs, holidays, etc have all gotten in the way but I am finally finding some more time to get on this project. One of the things I have finally finished was a custom pedal car for my son! Turned out pretty good.

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Ok so as promised here is an update on this project. Started fixing the door bottoms. The inside panel was shot and the bottom outside corner had some bad rust. I cut it all out and began making the patches. I fit the panels and patches pretty well and was really careful about getting too much heat in it but still ended up warping the door a bit. I think it was because the part I had to cut out on the outside bottom corner was really close to the edge. It can be fixed, just going to take some work.

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Still have to repair the driver door. Saving that for another day. I have had enough of the sheet metal repair for the time being.

The chassis design is done and we can now start building that.

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The frame is going to be made up of laser cut pieces, rectangular tubing and round tubing. Laser parts are on order and the rectangular tubing got delivered a week or so ago. So now the fun part begins! Getting all of the tubing laid out and cut to size is the next major step and here are some pictures of the start of that process.

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That is basically where we are at the moment. Once I make some more progress I will post another update.

[bbalch404]

So I am finally getting around to uploading some more pictures of the progress so far. I have been working on the chassis a lot more. Got all of the laser cut pieces and began the long process of getting them all bent up.

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I don't have a break so when the parts were cut, where ever there is a bend we put a small cut. I used this cut to not only make the bends able to be done by hand (with some clever clamping and leverage solutions) but also to make sure the bends are done in the correct location. These will all get welded up during assembly.

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Once they are all bent they will get welded up and then attached to the frame in the locator holes and welded up.

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That is pretty much where I am at now. I have all but a few pieces of the chassis and then I will be ready to tack up then fully weld everything. Hope to have a rolling chassis by spring.

[Frank ZX]

That's very impressive. Also a great idea starting with a new chassis. I'm going with a No Limit Engineering chassis after I ran a stock modified F100 chassis for a year.
I cant wait to see more progress.
Good Luck!

[Jaymzz]

Nice fab work! I am getting ready to build my frame also so very excited to watch your progress.

[bbalch404]

Thank you Frank. It's not all my idea. My good buddies at Skoon's Hotrods are really the ones who talked me into tackling this and are doing the CAD work, I did the reverse engineering of the original chassis and get to put the puzzle together. I was originally planning on going with all off the shelf stuff with the original chassis but I was easily talked into this route when looking at the $$$.

I have been following along with your build on here and Instagram. Looks like it is going to be a fun truck! Keep up the good work!

[bbalch404]

Thank you Jaymzz. It has been a ton of work so far but it should all start falling together here pretty soon! As long as it doesn't fall apart when it is done we will be good!

[Jaymzz]

Are you using the original c5 front and rear aluminum crossmembers? I am building a Blazer similar to what you are building and plan on using the original c5 suspension minus the leafs.

[bbalch404]

Yup, All C5 stuff minus the leafs. The idea is to use as many stock GM components as possible for easy of use if (when) I break something.

[Sbeck09]

Yup, All C5 stuff minus the leafs. The idea is to use as many stock GM components as possible for easy of use if (when) I break something.

This! I always try to design my stuff to use as many off-the-shelf parts from common cars so a simple failure doesn't crush my whole event. Sometimes I think people get too wrapped up in their design quest for custom and unique to realize that things will break and you have to be able to get it going again. Work smarter, not harder.

[bbalch404]

It is a lot easier to find a Napa, Autozone, etc to buy an oem replacement than a machine shop who can make you a 1 off part on a weekend in the middle of nowhere. Don't get me wrong, there will be A LOT of custom stuff but I am trying to keep as many critical components stock (or modified stock) as possible.

[Vimes]

Nice project. I'd love to do one of those older full size trucks, but they just aren't comfortable for me to drive due to my size. The seats just don't go back far enough.

Main reason people say you can't race trucks is the front/rear weight balance is off, and causes the truck to break loose a lot easier when you put the coals to it. While you're in the design phase, anything you can do to shift weight rearward would help with this. On my truck build, I plan to shift some of the weight up front rearward, such as putting the battery box behind the passenger rear tire. On my truck at least, there is enough room between the bedside and the frame for a box to be attached to the frame. That shifts some 50lbs rearward, including the tray and wiring which now heads rearward. Also looking at doing a shaft mount electric power steering unit that mounts the motor to the firewall inside the cab. This allows me to install a simple manual rack and pinion under the hood, and remove the power steering pump, hoses, bracketry and fluid. Any weight related to power steering moves to the center of the truck instead of just forward of the front tire centerline. The units look small enough that they should fit behind your dash, and the motor can be clocked to fit.

On air conditioning, worse comes to worse you can load the fresh air intake with ice. The melted water will drain the same way rainwater drains, and from what I hear in the hypermiling world a full load of ice will last most of the day. Bad part, it's cool, humid air. If you plan to drive in the winter, keep in mind that the AC compressor runs when defrost is on which helps clear the glass. Those old trucks weren't set up that way, of course, but with no AC you'll have to deal with foggy glass a lot longer in the winter.

[bbalch404]

Thanks Vimes. Yea, the main reason I am building this truck is because it isn't something you are supposed to be able to race. I have always been a truck guy and I love proving people wrong so I guess we shall see lol. We are doing a lot to lighten the truck and get the weight distribution better. And I am not too worried about the AC. I don't plan on driving this truck in the rain too much and I live in the Charlotte, NC area so we don't really have "winter" (I say that after we just got about a foot of snow last weekend...) . The gentleman that built the Targa Truck utilized an electric heater that he bolted up under the dash to handle the defrost. I think that is the route I am going to go for heat/defrost. A/C will be provided by mother nature lol.

[Sbeck09]

Thanks Vimes. Yea, the main reason I am building this truck is because it isn't something you are supposed to be able to race. I have always been a truck guy and I love proving people wrong so I guess we shall see lol.

Same logic I had. I feel excited every time someone asks about mine and I tell them it's for racing. They get this confused look. Priceless.

On A/C, I gutted the factory stuff in favor of Vintage Air. Saved me about 30 lbs off the stock stuff. Still have about 50 lbs of crap to have anything at all, but food for thought down the line if you can't take mother natures air.

[bbalch404]

So a much needed and overdue update on the project. Life has a way of getting extremely busy and getting in the way of projects. Thankfully we have made major progress on the chassis since the last post. So instead of typing it all out, here is a huge photo dump (that is what everyone comes to see anyway lol).

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And that is where it sits as of today! Cant wait to get the Cab mounted and wheels bolted on!

[andrewb70]

Awesome!

[Alwhite00]

Great project. I really like how your folded brackets work out.

[dacls1]

I love seeing someone designing and doing their own work! Nice job!

[bbalch404]

Thank you!

I can't take credit for the design though. I did the reverse engineering of the stock chassis and my good friend Adam from Skoons Hot Rods (https://www.facebook.com/Skoons-Hot-Rods-438635269525594) did the design work. Those guys have built some bad ass hotrods and some of the fastest pro-touring cars out there.

[JayinMI]

When this is all done, you and Loud and Proud should meet up. He's building his own chassis/suspension for his OBS longbed. lol

Jay

[David Sloan]

Cool project
Keep up the good work!

[Tincup]

Nice fab work....:twothumbs

[Justinredbeard]

This is an awesome build I cant wait to see how it turns out. I have been researching the same thing for my c10. Is there anyway you would share your Cad designs and or you or the shop that helped within reason sell a copy of mounting plans?

[bbalch404]

Well life has been crazy and this post is a few weeks late (ok, a few months late) but I was able to get the cab on the chassis! I have the C5 oil pan swapped onto the 5.3 and just about ready to try to fit it to see how much of the firewall I need to cut out. Hopefully I can get to that within the next few weekends.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2020/07/WDtOEdW-1.jpg

[dhutton]

Great work.

Don

[Tincup]

Looking Good.....

[brawls43]

This is a fun looking build! Nice work so far!

[cheapdate88]

Amazing work.

[Nikoster69]

Would you sell your chassis design? For someone else to build one?

[Nikoster69]

Would you sell your chassis design? For someone else to build one?

[214Chevy]

Any updates on this one?

[dhutton]

He hasn’t been here since August 2020.

[bbalch404]

He hasn’t been here since August 2020.


Sorry for the absence! Lots going on in life but the good news is the truck is still in progress! It is a rolling chassis with the powertrain 90% completed. I recently took the truck to a friends shop where a lot of the mechanicals will get put together then I will get it back to do bodywork, paint, and finish it up. The current estimated completion date is by the end of 2023 but hopefully we can get some test runs on it at some local autocross events before next season is over. That largely depends on part deliveries (everything is backordered) and budget. I will add some new photos soon. Thanks for checking in!

[wickedred]

Sorry for the absence! Lots going on in life but the good news is the truck is still in progress! It is a rolling chassis with the powertrain 90% completed. I recently took the truck to a friends shop where a lot of the mechanicals will get put together then I will get it back to do bodywork, paint, and finish it up. The current estimated completion date is by the end of 2023 but hopefully we can get some test runs on it at some local autocross events before next season is over. That largely depends on part deliveries (everything is backordered) and budget. I will add some new photos soon. Thanks for checking in!

Awesome. Cant wait to see the new pics.

[Samckitt]

Is the frame design something you did? What cad system you using? Great work.

[BrianP]

Very nice frame design!
What company did you use to laser cut all of your brackets?

[bbalch404]

Here are some photos of progress below. We recently took the truck to my good buddy's shop for it to get finished up (work/life have gotten too crazy to give me enough time to devote to it and I refuse to let it go unfinished). He is the mastermind behind the chassis/c5 idea and I wouldn't trust anyone else to work on this thing. I got the truck to the point of a rolling chassis (with his help along the way of course) and he is taking the lead from here. The plan is for him to get it running/driving then it will probably come back to my shop to get finished up (unless plans change...again lol). I hope to be involved in as many aspects as possible without getting in their way lol. If you want to follow along for more frequent updates, his facebook page is linked here: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100057228319606. I will still post updates here every so often, but his Facebook will have updates more frequently.

200159200160200161200162

[Jimbo1367]

Wow. What a ambitious build. The time it must of took to research, “draw up and fit/weld is a testament to your desire to do it yourself. GREAT JOB !

[andrewb70]

Excellent progress!

Andrew

[Jimbo1367]

This is a awesome build. Great craftsmanship.

[Nikoster69]

Any news on the truck? Still curious if you would sell the design for someone to make one or if you would build a second frame for someone to purchase

[bbalch404]

Truck is still a work in progress. Very slow progress, but progress none the less. The design/frame is currently not for sale, but may be some day (not by me though). I will post some updated pictures soon once more visual progress is made.

[bbalch404]

Hey Everyone! It has been a while. The truck is still in progress and here are some updated photos. We are working on getting the firewall completed, the exhaust routed, and the cage installed. Next on the to-do list is sorting out the steering and fuel tank/cell. Also started reverse engineering some of the stock interior components so we can make some new ones that will fit with all of the modifications we are making, yet still look "stock". Hope to get back to posting updates more frequently, but I make no promises lol!

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