Ridetech bump steer

[Tweak]

I have just had my full ridetech setup for my 68 Camaro tested and it has very bad bump steer. Just wondering if anyone else has had this problem. It certainly isn’t as advertised by ridetech. Would appreciate if any ridetech representatives are on here to answer my concerns. Would like to know how they test there kits to claim there bump steer figures. It has to pass certification here in New Zealand and as of today it has failed. I plan to modify to work correctly and wondering if anyone else has done the same. Cheers

[dhutton]

Do you have the Tru-Turn upgrade?

Don

[dontlifttoshift]

Need more information.

Define bumpsteer as you are experiencing it. Your build thread says this.
my wheel alignment guy confirmed it has no bump steer he thought it would drive really well also

What part failed inspection?

[Josh@Ridetech]

I'm curious on these questions above as well.

I also saw the post where your alignment guy also said he didn't see any bumpsteer problems. When you say you have very bad bumpsteer, what are you feeling? Did they fail the car due to something they felt or a part they think is faulty?

With your car at driving height, what does the shock measure from the center of the lower eyelet to the hole in the subframe that the shock goes through?

[Tweak]

Yes, complete ridetech set up

[Tweak]

I'm curious on these questions above as well.

I also saw the post where your alignment guy also said he didn't see any bumpsteer problems. When you say you have very bad bumpsteer, what are you feeling? Did they fail the car due to something they felt or a part they think is faulty?

With your car at driving height, what does the shock measure from the center of the lower eyelet to the hole in the subframe that the shock goes through?

Hey Josh
So yes after I had a wheel alignment done I was told by the technician it had none. Unfortunately he didn't test the full movement of the suspension travel.
At ride height the Toe angle is set at +1/8"
At full compression the Toe angle is at -1/8"
At full extension the Toe angle is at +3/4"

All testing was done with shocks removed.

I have been doing lots of test driving and it feels pretty good. I do have 15" tires and he reckons this will absorb a lot of the deflection.

looks like I will need to modify either the steering arm or the tie rod stud to eliminate bump steer.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Damien

[krom]

What is limiting travel in extension, with the shocks removed?

[Tweak]

What is limiting travel in extension, with the shocks removed?

Hey
Nothing is limiting it, the toe angle numbers are as tested.
I would like to know how Ridetech measure bump steer?

Cheers

[marolf101x]

Here is how we measure bumpsteer. . .set the alignment, bolt a steel plate to each wheel mount surface, for rough measurements use two tape measures to measure between two plates, measurements are taken every 1/2" between suspension extension and compression. For detailed measurement we have a dial caliper version like you'll find at race car supply stores.

You only stated, "Yes, complete ridetech set up". I'm still not 100% sure if you have the TruTurn system or not. Maybe some pictures of your setup would help?

Now, here's where I think you may see issues. . .you measured from full droop to full compression without a shock absorber installed. The shock limits travel, so you are measuring for bumpsteer in a situation the suspension can never reach. We have "dummy shocks" that have the oil and nitrogen removed so we can more easily cycle the suspension while doing these tests. You need to measure only the actual compression and extension.

[dhutton]

He has Tru-Turn. You can see it in his build thread.

If they insist on removing the shock I would add a bump stop to the upper control arm to limit droop to the same level.

Don

[marolf101x]

Or you can just take the spring off the shock and cycle the suspension. Though the shocks are gas charged, you can still easily compress the suspension.

[CSG]

Like already stated your issues are that you are checking bump at a wheel location that is no where near the range the car can see in use. I would also question that tech who said it had "no bumpsteer". Everything has some degree of bumpsteer it just needs to be at an acceptable number.

[Mean 69]

Make sure you secure the steering wheel so that it absolutely will not move as you cycle the suspension. The main area to look at is the bump travel relative to the static height, this needs to be minimized "first," droop - within a reasonable amount of wheel travel - is secondary but also important.

If the numbers you show for static ride height to full bump are real, you have a significant issue. This can most likely be resolved by a simple bump steer kit but I would be surprised if this is real, check all the above again. And agreed, with the small-ish (no offense) tires and 15" wheels, the issue will be masked relative to large diameter/wide tires, which would be undriveable if those number were real.

Mark

[bret]

Hey Josh
So yes after I had a wheel alignment done I was told by the technician it had none. Unfortunately he didn't test the full movement of the suspension travel.
At ride height the Toe angle is set at +1/8"
At full compression the Toe angle is at -1/8"
At full extension the Toe angle is at +3/4"

All testing was done with shocks removed.

I have been doing lots of test driving and it feels pretty good. I do have 15" tires and he reckons this will absorb a lot of the deflection.

looks like I will need to modify either the steering arm or the tie rod stud to eliminate bump steer.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Damien


We would need to know the caster and camber settings as well...that can alter the bumpsteer numbers, though not near as much as you have indicated. As Britt indicated, over-compression or over extension (beyond the limits of the coilover) will affect the overall toe change. The fact that you are seeing excessive toe change on full extension (which may exceed feasible travel limits) tells me that the suspension might be traveling in an area it would never get to if a coilover was installed. Can you send us your toe change graph?

[Tweak]

We would need to know the caster and camber settings as well...that can alter the bumpsteer numbers, though not near as much as you have indicated. As Britt indicated, over-compression or over extension (beyond the limits of the coilover) will affect the overall toe change. The fact that you are seeing excessive toe change on full extension (which may exceed feasible travel limits) tells me that the suspension might be traveling in an area it would never get to if a coilover was installed. Can you send us your toe change graph?

Hey Bret
I really appreciate you getting involved.
I plan to set car up on stands this weekend, take springs off and run suspension through its travel with shocks in. I will build similar bump steer test jig to the guy certifying my car. Will take photos to show whats happening.
Im happy to send these threw to you via PM or post on this thread as there is loads of guys on here with setting front end experience and happy to help.
Cheers
Damien

[bret]

Hey Bret
I really appreciate you getting involved.
I plan to set car up on stands this weekend, take springs off and run suspension through its travel with shocks in. I will build similar bump steer test jig to the guy certifying my car. Will take photos to show whats happening.
Im happy to send these threw to you via PM or post on this thread as there is loads of guys on here with setting front end experience and happy to help.
Cheers
Damien

Post up your results...I am confident of what you'll find if all the components are there and assembled corretly. If they are not, then we will all learn together! The end goal for all of is the same...to learn how and why a suspension works, and how that makes our cars happier.

[Mean 69]

"The end goal for all of is the same...to learn how and why a suspension works, and how that makes our cars happier."

Very well put, sir.
Mark

[Tweak]

Ok, I have tested my suspension for bump steer with everything in except the spring
Ride height toe +5mm (13/64)
Full extended toe +16mm (5/8)
Full compressed toe -13mm (33/64)

Complete ridetech with truturn.
Happy to answer any questions to hopefully help sort.
Cheers148447

[Tweak]

From an article on hot rod forum
“If the tie-rod line passes over the IC, then we will have bump-out as the wheel travels up, and bump-in when the wheel travels down.”

[dhutton]

I think more data points on the bump steer curve are needed. Something like this:

Don

[bret]

Ok, I have tested my suspension for bump steer with everything in except the spring
Ride height toe +5mm (13/64)
Full extended toe +16mm (5/8)
Full compressed toe -13mm (33/64)

Complete ridetech with truturn.
Happy to answer any questions to hopefully help sort.
Cheers148447

just to clarify...the image you posted shows your bumpsteer measuring device? It appears that the measurements are taken some distance in front of the spindle. How far? That will certainly magnify the readings that are normally observed.
A couple more pieces of info .I'd like to see...
1. Caster setting
2. A general picture of the front suspension so I can see that the components are assembled appropriately. (Humor me...I've seen some strange stuff over the years :) )

when I return to the office tomorrow I'll dig up the bumpsteer graph that we observed and try to post it here.

cheers!

[Tweak]

just to clarify...the image you posted shows your bumpsteer measuring device? It appears that the measurements are taken some distance in front of the spindle. How far? That will certainly magnify the readings that are normally observed.
A couple more pieces of info .I'd like to see...
1. Caster setting
2. A general picture of the front suspension so I can see that the components are assembled appropriately. (Humor me...I've seen some strange stuff over the years :) )

when I return to the office tomorrow I'll dig up the bumpsteer graph that we observed and try to post it here.

cheers!


Hey Bret
I'm at work now, Monday morning here in NZ, will take images tonight.
No this system doesn't magnify results at all. Yes it will change overall widths, but the toe angles stay constant.
If It is 2 degs. at the rotor face, then its 2 degs further forward.
The two pieces of tape you can see indicate the diameter of the tire. Other wise my ride height toe angle would be off, which it isn't.
This jig allows you to get very accurate measurements when suspension is fully compressed as the chassis isn't in the way.

Cheers

[andrewb70]

Hey Bret
I'm at work now, Monday morning here in NZ, will take images tonight.
No this system doesn't magnify results at all. Yes it will change overall widths, but the toe angles stay constant.
If It is 2 degs. at the rotor face, then its 2 degs further forward.
The two pieces of tape you can see indicate the diameter of the tire. Other wise my ride height toe angle would be off, which it isn't.
This jig allows you to get very accurate measurements when suspension is fully compressed as the chassis isn't in the way.

Cheers

But you gave measurements in inches, not degrees. Those measurements will definitely change if you take them at different distances from the wheel centerline. I would take measurements at the tire radius distance.

Andrew

[Tweak]

But you gave measurements in inches, not degrees. Those measurements will definitely change if you take them at different distances from the wheel centerline. I would take measurements at the tire radius distance.

Andrew

Hey Andrew
I would suggest you do a simple chalk drawing on the ground of a triangle. Measure the distance of the third angle over a given distance (say 26") then move along the triangle and take the distance of the third angle over the same distance and the measurement will be the same.
You measure Toe by distance ie. 1/8+ toe, but this is define by the ANGLE of the rotor. Angles stay constant and relative to the other rotor.

Hope this helps

[Tweak]

Hey Andrew
I would suggest you do a simple chalk drawing on the ground of a triangle. Measure the distance of the third angle over a given distance (say 26") then move along the triangle and take the distance of the third angle over the same distance and the measurement will be the same.
You measure Toe by distance ie. 1/8+ toe, but this is define by the ANGLE of the rotor. Angles stay constant and relative to the other rotor.

Hope this helps148461

Hope this helps

[Tweak]

148490148487148488148489

[Tweak]

Ok as installed and wheel alignment done
Toe measurements
Ride height +5mm. 13/64
Full bottom +16mm. 5/8
Full top. -13mm. 33/64

Best results so far with mods
Ride height +4mm. 5/16
Full bottom. +2mm. 5/64
Full top. -7mm. 9/32

So I’m getting close to realistic bumpsteer numbers that improve on existing

[Tweak]

Not sure why, but it appears ridetech have gone very quiet on this thread.
I have reached the limit of adjustment I'm prepared to go at the steering arms.
So new test equipment will determine design of drag link and dial out all bump steer.
148640

[Mean 69]

For comparison, I bumped an Art Morrison frame last week, with their steering arms, etc. +/- 2" of wheel travel from the ride height position I had +0.10 to -0.08" which isn't perfect, but it's reasonable for a street car. Something definitely sounds strange here.

My compliments, you are a very crafty guy. Engineering background, I presume?
Mark

[onair]

148642
Column B is the numbers we measured here at Ridetech.
I'm curious in the length of your idler arm and pitman arm? The chart I posted is with the 5.8" on both the idler and pitman arm. There are 2 lengths that are common, 5.25" and 5.8".
When you are measuring full compressed and full extended, are you basing those off the shock travel? Dimensions of the shock for this setup is 10.48" compressed, 14.08" extended with 12.55" ride height.

Rodney Mason
Ridetech
[email protected]

[nzcarguy]

Hi Damien,

That is not good, on the positive side, Ridetech are engaged, I am going through the same process with the Roadster Shop and they wont even provide a response to emails simple details on the brake lines. Whilst our NZ compliance rules are somewhat bizarre some of the checks and balances are could be of benefit to all those building these cars.

[Tweak]

148642
Column B is the numbers we measured here at Ridetech.
I'm curious in the length of your idler arm and pitman arm? The chart I posted is with the 5.8" on both the idler and pitman arm. There are 2 lengths that are common, 5.25" and 5.8".
When you are measuring full compressed and full extended, are you basing those off the shock travel? Dimensions of the shock for this setup is 10.48" compressed, 14.08" extended with 12.55" ride height.

Rodney Mason
Ridetech
[email protected]
Hey Rodney
Yes I have 5.8” on both and have shocks in with no springs
I am testing travel from bump stop to bump stop of shock travel and ride height is very similar to yours
I’m starting to think maybe ridetech doesn’t fully understand what bump steer is
Your chart you provide states at the top toe in is negative toe, when in fact toe in is positive toe
I’m sure your measurements are correct to your test method, problem is I’m pretty sure your method of testing is incorrect
The front end of a Camaro isn’t rocket science and I have fitted all components as designed
Cheers

[marolf101x]

You have yet to tell us your alignment settings. As more positive caster is added, the steering arm is lowered, which affects bumpsteer.
Just looking at your images the shims on the upper control arms appear to be about even (though difficult to tell). If correct, that means you don't have much caster in the alignment as it sits.
Let us know what you are running for alignment and we'll go from there.

We understand what bump steer is. You don't have championship winning cars without knowing a bit about basic suspension geometry.
I know that once you get under a certain number bumpsteer doesn't really matter as it doesn't really affect anything. This is determined in part by the tire you select.
I know the numbers you are stating are way off what we found during our testing and development of this product.
I also know the 1st Gen TruTurn was designed years ago before we started 3D scanning the cars and designing everything on the computer first. So data from that era is a bit difficult to come by. If we cannot find it in some notes somewhere it may not exist any longer. The newly developed parts have much better documentation and retention of those documents.
I know these cars are all a bit different. . .they were all slightly different the day they rolled off the assembly line, and in most cases haven't' gotten any better.

I also know we'll do about whatever it takes to get this figured out and make you happy. . .that's our job!
It is a little more difficult since you are not on the same continent as us, but we'll do what we can.

[David Pozzi]

Ok, I have tested my suspension for bump steer with everything in except the spring
Ride height toe +5mm (13/64)
Full extended toe +16mm (5/8)
Full compressed toe -13mm (33/64)

Complete ridetech with truturn.
Happy to answer any questions to hopefully help sort.
Cheers148447

You must keep the angle irons level in side view when jacking up your suspension. If you let them droop as you raise the suspension, any camber change will affect the toe angle of the irons IF they are not kept level.
As Brit said, your caster setting affects the height of the outer tie rod ends, & bump steer. More caster = less toe out in bump.
I do think trying to get perfect bump steer over the whole range of suspension travel is pointless. The car doesn't operate there. I would look at 2" of bump, and 1" of rebound, but it's your car.

[Tweak]

You have yet to tell us your alignment settings. As more positive caster is added, the steering arm is lowered, which affects bumpsteer.
Just looking at your images the shims on the upper control arms appear to be about even (though difficult to tell). If correct, that means you don't have much caster in the alignment as it sits.
Let us know what you are running for alignment and we'll go from there.

We understand what bump steer is. You don't have championship winning cars without knowing a bit about basic suspension geometry.
I know that once you get under a certain number bumpsteer doesn't really matter as it doesn't really affect anything. This is determined in part by the tire you select.
I know the numbers you are stating are way off what we found during our testing and development of this product.
I also know the 1st Gen TruTurn was designed years ago before we started 3D scanning the cars and designing everything on the computer first. So data from that era is a bit difficult to come by. If we cannot find it in some notes somewhere it may not exist any longer. The newly developed parts have much better documentation and retention of those documents.
I know these cars are all a bit different. . .they were all slightly different the day they rolled off the assembly line, and in most cases haven't' gotten any better.

I also know we'll do about whatever it takes to get this figured out and make you happy. . .that's our job!
It is a little more difficult since you are not on the same continent as us, but we'll do what we can.

Hey Brett
Cheers for your input
I still believe Ridetech was the right choice for my car. Well made strong components
I have spent many hours fine tuning my front end and I have decided to make a new drag link similar to your version but have moved the tierod pick up points slightly
With them moved I ended up with
Ride height toe +5mm 13/64
Full up toe +5mm. 13/64 No change
Full down +6mm. 15/64
I reckon I’ve found the sweet spot

Attached image isn’t great but shows what I’ve done
Will build a more rigid test rig to lock in new dimensions before I cnc new drag link148724

[Tweak]

You must keep the angle irons level in side view when jacking up your suspension. If you let them droop as you raise the suspension, any camber change will affect the toe angle of the irons IF they are not kept level.
As Brit said, your caster setting affects the height of the outer tie rod ends, & bump steer. More caster = less toe out in bump.
I do think trying to get perfect bump steer over the whole range of suspension travel is pointless. The car dowesn't operate there. I would look at 2" of bump, and 1" of rebound, but it's your car.

Hey David
Thanks for your input
I was pretty happy how my car handled with as bought set up
Unfortunately it’s not my decision here in New Zealand
Our modified cars have to be certified by government appointed certifier and pass very strict testing to be allowed on nz roads
This is where it failed bump steer and this all began
Looks like I have sorted and will post images of new drag link
Cheers

[David Pozzi]

I like your tie rod test plates.
GM designed in some toe-out in bump to compensate for lower A arm bushing deflection which allows the spindle to move inward & rearward when cornering hard. The problem was, it had much more bump toe-out in production than was optimum. My point is, shooting for zero toe change is probably not ideal under real-world conditions. However, the Ride Tech components reduce deflection immensely, which reduces the need for compensation. If your inspectors require near zero bump steer, it will drive ok.

[Tweak]

I like your tie rod test plates.
GM designed in some toe-out in bump to compensate for lower A arm bushing deflection which allows the spindle to move inward & rearward when cornering hard. The problem was, it had much more bump toe-out in production than was optimum. My point is, shooting for zero toe change is probably not ideal under real-world conditions. However, the Ride Tech components reduce deflection immensely, which reduces the need for compensation. If your inspectors require near zero bump steer, it will drive ok.

That's great info David.
What would you recommend the best Toe-in bump to be for all round street performance. Not sure if you know much about nz roads, but our roads resemble canon roads and they are everywhere. Makes for fun driving. I plan to add a video to my build page soon, they are awesome.
Here is what I have proposed for certification. Not far from the ridetech part.
I haven't put the kink in it to match shape of GM draglink as I'm running LS7 oil pan and bottom of pan sits above drag link with no clearance issues.
148781

[Tweak]

I like your tie rod test plates.
GM designed in some toe-out in bump to compensate for lower A arm bushing deflection which allows the spindle to move inward & rearward when cornering hard. The problem was, it had much more bump toe-out in production than was optimum. My point is, shooting for zero toe change is probably not ideal under real-world conditions. However, the Ride Tech components reduce deflection immensely, which reduces the need for compensation. If your inspectors require near zero bump steer, it will drive ok.

This is the early response from certifier, any help would be greatly appreciated.

"So you need to make the tapered holes the correct thickness material so theirs no welding etc , LVV (government agency) will want plans id say of the oe draglink and dimensions of your bolt on piece , id say what the question will be is raising the height of the inner pivots what extra leverage does that have on the oe draglink and connections to the pitman and idler ? id expect it to made out of steel.
I can do a stress analysis of new part, but really need to find OE steering loads?

Cheers

[David Pozzi]

Very nice! You did that very quickly!
Somewhere between zero and .125" toe-out per side in 4" travel is great. I was advised .080" out per side over a 4" travel by Dick Guldstrand on race cars with solid steel A arm bushings. The small amount of toe out will help offset any deflection. I have no way to predict deflection but there has to be some. A small amount of toe out in bump also helps assist Ackerman correction which isn't a bad thing at all.

[beater65]

This is the early response from certifier, any help would be greatly appreciated.

"So you need to make the tapered holes the correct thickness material so theirs no welding etc , LVV (government agency) will want plans id say of the oe draglink and dimensions of your bolt on piece , id say what the question will be is raising the height of the inner pivots what extra leverage does that have on the oe draglink and connections to the pitman and idler ? id expect it to made out of steel.
I can do a stress analysis of new part, but really need to find OE steering loads?

Cheers


What really is crazy to me, is the amount of intelligent people they have doing these inspections, and how detailed they are in ensuring safety.

I've never heard of anything that in depth in the states, not saying there isn't. But still amazing. Guess it has its Pros and Cons

[Rod]

For comparison, I bumped an Art Morrison frame last week, with their steering arms, etc. +/- 2" of wheel travel from the ride height position I had +0.10 to -0.08" which isn't perfect, but it's reasonable for a street car.

the Morrison frame gets better when you add tall lower ball joints to raise the spindle and then move the rack upwards some

[Tweak]

Modeled the two options today to valuate the stress analysis of drag link and drag link with ridetech draglink attached.
With maximum force of 18500N applied to the tie rod.
148877148878

[Mean 69]

One thing to look at is clearance to the oil pan, there have been reports of certain combinations not working together with the Tru-Turn, I think mainly with big blocks. But you might take a quick look as there is quite a difference in the inner tie rod height, probably won't help with packaging. Seems like you could reason with your officials by comparing the two pic's, of course it's all about the assumptions in forces, etc, but people love pretty FEA pictures (even if they are meaningless).

I agree that the rigor that your agencies put forth is admirable. In the US, the "inspections" are mainly for emissions testing rather than anything to do with safety. In California, it's borderline - no - completely ridiculous. So you can drive a total piece of crap with all kinds of safety issues, but as long as it "smogs," you are free to go out and endanger yourself and others.

Nice work,
Mark

[Tweak]

One thing to look at is clearance to the oil pan, there have been reports of certain combinations not working together with the Tru-Turn, I think mainly with big blocks. But you might take a quick look as there is quite a difference in the inner tie rod height, probably won't help with packaging. Seems like you could reason with your officials by comparing the two pic's, of course it's all about the assumptions in forces, etc, but people love pretty FEA pictures (even if they are meaningless).

I agree that the rigor that your agencies put forth is admirable. In the US, the "inspections" are mainly for emissions testing rather than anything to do with safety. In California, it's borderline - no - completely ridiculous. So you can drive a total piece of crap with all kinds of safety issues, but as long as it "smogs," you are free to go out and endanger yourself and others.

Nice work,
Mark

Hey Mark
Yes I have heard big block guys have all sorts of problems, especially with header fitment.
I'm using a GM Ls7 oil pan, so no issues for me as the bottom of the oil pan sits above drag link

[David Pozzi]

I've seen nothing on what loads GM may have designed for. Your bolt on plate should double the strength of the assembly and be more than enough. If you can prove your modified assembly is stronger than the stock one, it should pass. Most GM steering linkage is made of 1045 or 1046 steel, if that helps. There was a later center link produced in late 1969, it's thicker but softer steel, & probably not an improvement.

[Tweak]

I've seen nothing on what loads GM may have designed for. Your bolt on plate should double the strength of the assembly and be more than enough. If you can prove your modified assembly is stronger than the stock one, it should pass. Most GM steering linkage is made of 1045 or 1046 steel, if that helps. There was a later center link produced in late 1969, it's thicker but softer steel, & probably not an improvement.

Hey David
Yes that's great info, yes I'm with you and think it should be much stronger.
Do you by any chance have factory bump steer figures?

cheers
Damien

[Mean 69]

Great question on the OEM factory bump steer numbers, I suspect official numbers might be hard to find for argument with the authorities there. But it hopefully won't matter, I am pretty sure you will be able to beat the "old" numbers by a country mile with the new link and tuning. Keep in mind the tires back then were really skinny, floppy and rubber bushings galore - you could live with a significant amount of bump steer and never even know it. Now, with today's tires......

M

[David Pozzi]

I bump steered my 67 Camaro in the mid-70's. I had already done the Guldstrand mod, which made it worse. At something like 3" dive, I had over an inch of toe out.
Here are my measurements for a stock sub with stock steering, plus tall ball joints and tall outer tie rod ends: http://www.pozziracing.com/proforged_first_.htm

[Tweak]

I bump steered my 67 Camaro in the mid-70's. I had already done the Guldstrand mod, which made it worse. At something like 3" dive, I had over an inch of toe out.
Here are my measurements for a stock sub with stock steering, plus tall ball joints and tall outer tie rod ends: http://www.pozziracing.com/proforged_first_.htm

Have David
Cool. Great info
Cheers
Damo

[Tweak]

My final test jig. Worked out what height I wanted the inner tie rod, just wanted to lock in width.
Results were awesome, will post bump chart once I have done it
149042149043149044

[brycedrue]

Wouldn't it be funny if a slight caster adjustment corrected the problem...

[Mean 69]

"Wouldn't it be funny if a slight caster adjustment corrected the problem..."

Extremely unlikely. I have been modelling a front setup over the last couple weeks, and in doing so comparing 5 degrees static caster to 8 degrees, over this relatively enormous range the toe error is very small. Very small. The amount of caster one can dial in to a stock frame using shims is nowhere near this range. Original poster is sharp and solving the problem the correct way.

Mark

[Tweak]

So in conclusion.
I think the Ridetech concept is rock solid, as i have been able to tune my bump steer to better than there advertised figures.
The only problem is if you do not have the exact setup Ridetech had when they developed there Try Turn (i.e.. Toe, Caster, Chamber, ride height) your results will be way off theirs.
For me I think what changes results the most is ride height, and we all have our preference for that.
Sorry my chart is in mm, thats how we role down here in New Zealand.
I was able to get almost zero change in bump through 3" of travel with the only bump happening in the last 1" both in rebound and compression.
I was able to get 5/64 of total bump steer in both full compression and full rebound. So 3/64 change on each wheel.
I would call that fantastic figures, but I'm sure experts on here would have there opinions?
I would like to thank all the people who contributed and offered advise as I was on a pretty step learning curve.
I would also like to thank Bret from Ridetech for being engaged, however I do feel you and your team offer defensive answers and aren't truely engaged in what it takes to truely fine tune a car.
In saying that I am very happy with my Ridetech package and would happily recommend there products.

I'm not an engineer, and don't clam to be. What I am is a qualified Industrial Designer that challengers everything. If I think is wrong, i work through good processes and find solutions that work for me.
149082
149083
Cheers again, damo

[dhutton]

So you’re saying that the Ridetech Tru-Turn has worse bumpsteer than the original design? I am curious what caster and camber you are running when you took that data.

Don

[Mean 69]

Nice outcome, really good job. 5/64" translates to about 0.078. and while this isn't goo enough for a true race car on racing tires, you will be very hard pressed to notice this on the street or track with your setup.

I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion however, within reasonable caster, camber figures the bump should have been better than what you originally had - and of course it can't be ride height either. So something is up. But nice job, you learned something, fixed a problem, and taught others as well.

That is a fantastic picture, it is really cool that the American cars appeal to other nations as well.

Cheers!
Mark

[slammed68]

not a chance in hell I would return my truturn setup for OE....something is off in your calculations or setup.

[dhutton]

Hopefully Ridetech is busy trying to duplicate, analyze and understand what is going on here. That is just good engineering practice.....

Don

[Mean 69]

"not a chance in hell I would return my truturn setup for OE....something is off in your calculations or setup."

Brett and his team are really good, but I do ask if you have ever checked bump steer on your own car, assuming you have the setup? If you have, share the data please, if you haven't, and you like the way the car drives, then that's super cool but don't assume it doesn't have issues. Again, you can have error on a street driven car and it might not be horrible, but doesn't mean it's "right." Analogy - what if your timing was off by a few degrees in retard - you'd never know unless you use a dyno. If you have too much in advance, you would see it in detonation. Just because you can't feel it doesn't mean there isn't an issue.

M - out.

[slammed68]

"not a chance in hell I would return my truturn setup for OE....something is off in your calculations or setup."

Brett and his team are really good, but I do ask if you have ever checked bump steer on your own car, assuming you have the setup? If you have, share the data please, if you haven't, and you like the way the car drives, then that's super cool but don't assume it doesn't have issues. Again, you can have error on a street driven car and it might not be horrible, but doesn't mean it's "right." Analogy - what if your timing was off by a few degrees in retard - you'd never know unless you use a dyno. If you have too much in advance, you would see it in detonation. Just because you can't feel it doesn't mean there isn't an issue.

M - out.

With modern tires and stock suspension geometry the car was borderline dangerous with the amount of bump steer that was present. A dip in the road mid corner was terrifying. I have not taken bump steer measurements with the truturn setup but the improvement was drastic.

I never said that ridetech produced perfect bumpsteer geometry, There are too many variables built into these old rides for there to be a one size fits all solution that is perfect. His chart appears to show that ridetech geometry is terrible, I simply cannot however understand how it could be worse than factory unless the measurements or setup are incorrect. I dont think your analogy really applies to my statement. I disputed that the factory geometry has better bumpsteer than the truturn kit. Your analogy would imply that without measuring the factory geometry I would not be able to notice the bumpsteer. You can detect 1st gen bump steer from the passenger seat.

[Tweak]

With modern tires and stock suspension geometry the car was borderline dangerous with the amount of bump steer that was present. A dip in the road mid corner was terrifying. I have not taken bump steer measurements with the truturn setup but the improvement was drastic.

I never said that ridetech produced perfect bumpsteer geometry, There are too many variables built into these old rides for there to be a one size fits all solution that is perfect. His chart appears to show that ridetech geometry is terrible, I simply cannot however understand how it could be worse than factory unless the measurements or setup are incorrect. I dont think your analogy really applies to my statement. I disputed that the factory geometry has better bumpsteer than the truturn kit. Your analogy would imply that without measuring the factory geometry I would not be able to notice the bumpsteer. You can detect 1st gen bump steer from the passenger seat.

I think you missed my point
Yes the system is very good if you take the time to modify to match your setup
Maybe you got lucky and your set up is close to there set up when they engineered it
Look at what I’ve come up with, moved the pick up points of inner toe rods approx 3/8 and I have **** all bump steer
I would bet if you took your front springs out and did a true bump test, the results would be “ok” but also may shock
I reckon the bigger issue is Bret and ridetech offer nothing unless you poke the bear.
I get the vibe if they don’t agree they just want this story to fade away and die
You say your happy because it’s better, but I bet you purchased there kit on there claims of “almost eliminating bumpsteer” if it doesn’t then there claims are false
That should have poked the bear. Lol

I challenge everyone on here to do a true bump steer test on the tru turn front ends and post results

[Tweak]

The blocked that painted my car run Boyd z paint shop.
We know our ****
149323

[David Pozzi]

First Gen Camaros vary in their geometry due to production tolerances. Stock Pitman arms and Idler arms have usually been replaced by now, so aftermarket parts are in use. Now look at how the cars are assembled. I have been able to vary bump steer by loosening the steering box and idler arm bolts, pushing up on them and tightening them. On a first gen Camaro this can make a difference in bump steer. The factory used two lengths of pitman arms, two lengths of idler arms, & three lengths of outer steering arms. Aftermarket idler arms are mid-length 5.5" and don't match the long 5.65" 67 idler or the short 5.25" 68/69 idler. There were two center links used, a thin and a thick version. They all have the potential to cause a variance in bump steer. About 15 years ago, Global West did a magazine bump steer test using various pitman and outer steering arm combinations and showed the differences.


The easiest place to make bump steer adjustments is washers on the outer tie rod end, but space is limited. Moving the tie rod end down will reduce toe out, which is usually the problem on a First Gen Camaro. Second gen Camaros toe in under bump. Moving the inner tie rod in or out will affect the measurements at the ends of suspension travel more than the middle. It changes the arc of the tie rod to better match the need. But moving the tie rod inward can cause contact with the oil pan, especially a big block, so its not going to work in every case.

While bump steer exists on a stock Camaro, it does not relate to a 2" taller spindle like Ridetech makes. Making the spindle taller greatly increases bump steer, which is why Ride Tech came up with the Tru-Turn system. There is also a problem with the stock tie rod end being so low, and contacting wide rims, so moving the steering arm upward allows wider than 8" rims.

My tests were with a stock spindle, and also with a .5" taller upper ball joint which increased bump steer and caster at 3 degrees. Going 2" taller without addressing bump steer could put you over an inch toe out with 3 or 4 inches of travel. I can assure you Ride Tech made an honest effort with this system. However their results were for the subframe or subframes they tested, not your subframe, and not my subframe with whatever linkage we have. All Camaros are not the same, that's why on my web page I say people should do their own bump steer testing and adjustments & not rely on someone else's tests. I have driven the Ride Tech 48 hour Camaro and it steers great.

[Tweak]

Hi Dave
Yes I started with the outer tie rod and washers, negative and positive direction. It got better but not good enough. Once I started modifying the drag link it came good
I’ve always said I’m happy with the product, but maybe there claims are not the best
I totally get that there not all the same, we are talking about 1968 in my case
I’ve seen it many times before with inexperienced r&d engineers, that crack something good, and lock it in without looking at all the variable. Unfortunately Ridetech and the Tru turn fit into this bucket

Cheers

[Tweak]

New drag link, custom to my car. Bottom holes to match OE drag link. Done away with ridetech slot. Didn’t mention before but that would have failed also.
149611

[andrewb70]

Failed the inspection? What do the inspections entail?

Andrew

[Tweak]

Failed the inspection? What do the inspections entail?

Andrew

Where do I start. Anything OE is fine and requires no certification
Modified parts are subject to strict guidelines. All welding has to be done but certified welder. Tig welding preferred over mig . They were concerned with ridetech strong arms because they are mig welded. But have had them signed off. Modified seat belt mounts have to be 1/8” doubler plates fitted to body. It goes on and on. 300+ page document. All but crash test them. No half nuts so I have to change the supplied 4 link arm bolts because ridetech supply with half nuts and there isn’t enough thread for full nut. So new longer bolts and nuts. Car has to go through an intense brake test to prove its road safe. 10x 60 mph to nothing hard breaking to check for brake fade.
It’s full on

[TheJDMan]

It sounds like NZ applies OEM manufacturer safety standards to one off cars as well. I assume any new car sold in NZ must at some point meet or exceed the same standards. Meeting such standards is one thing if you are building hundreds of thousands of copies of the test car but is quite different if you are only building one car.

[Tweak]

It sounds like NZ applies OEM manufacturer safety standards to one off cars as well. I assume any new car sold in NZ must at some point meet or exceed the same standards. Meeting such standards is one thing if you are building hundreds of thousands of copies of the test car but is quite different if you are only building one car.

Hey Steve
There has been a few deaths with after market steering and suspension parts failing in hot rods. These cars had been certified also, so they are now looking at everything!
I dont have a problem with it, NZ roads are pretty tough on a vehicle, but make for great driving.

Cheers

[Tweak]

This is an image of a road up by my friends place. 50 miles of this is an awesome place to drive.
True test of all suspension components and car handling.
149663

[Tweak]

Another thing that failed on the truturn was the outer tierod heim joints bind on the lower nut.
Easy fix, tapered spacers to allow heim joint full movement.
149770

[dhutton]

Hope you don’t get any dust in those heims because they will bind and the noise they make is incredible and very loud. Not sure what Ridetech was thinking there because it seems dust is inevitable....

I’ve installed Ridetech suspensions on two cars and both experiences were disappointing. They come on strong with lots of promises when problems are reported but then they fall off the map blaming the owner and fifty year old cars rather than digging in.... Their attitude seems to be that they are winning on the track so their stuff must be great.

Don

[Tweak]

Hope you don’t get any dust in those heims because they will bind and the noise they make is incredible and very loud. Not sure what Ridetech was thinking there because it seems dust is inevitable....

I’ve installed Ridetech suspensions on two cars and both experiences were disappointing. They come on strong with lots of promises when problems are reported but then they fall off the map blaming the owner and fifty year old cars rather than digging in.... Their attitude seems to be that they are winning on the track so their stuff must be great.

Don

Hey Don
I would have to agree, ridetech lacks integrity from the top down..
Mate of mine is installing one of there 4-links in a 1st gen and had all the heim joints replaced with grease-able Johhny Joints.
For the very reason you mentioned.
This will be my first winter upgrade on my car and yes plan to replace front ones also. I thought It seemed a very odd decision from ridetech also.
149798

[bret]

"...Ridetech lacks integrity from the top down..."
"...Silence is ignorance..."
"...Bret and Ridetech offer nothing unless you poke the bear..."

Nice.

I thought we were here to resolve problems and maybe learn something.

I have previously declined to respond to these comments because my intent was to find solutions to problems and to learn from and maybe even educate the rest of the hotrod world about suspension issues. I also recognize that frustrations have a way of becoming magnified through a keyboard 8000 miles away. These kind of comments offer no resolution to your problem, nor do they help anyone else learn anything. I have a thick skin when it comes to insults...if your intent is to poke the bear, understand that you're going to need a bigger stick and a sharper tongue. If, however, you want help with your problems, I will need that elusive caster number to attempt to explain why you are not seeing the bumpsteer number we are.

Don... If you have voiced problems of any kind in the past, I can assure you that we responded. Your reference to us blaming these old cars for your problems is nothing more than us relaying an unfortunate truth of hotrodding.
I will be within 30 miles of your town next week at the Goodguys show. I will be more than happy to address any issues past or present with your suspension systems. Please look me up at the display booth or at the Autocross. Or if you won't be there, send me a direct email and I'll come to your shop to take a look. [email protected]

The comments about heim joints is valid. Until now, they are the solution that sucked the least to allow free rotation of the suspension. That's why we did this: https://www.ridetech.com/products/r-joint/
Until a few years ago, there were some really good durable heim joints available. In the never ending quest for cost reductions, they have all seemed to have deteriorated in quality. As of Jan 1, 2018, all Ridetech 4 link products will include R-Joint components.

We will continue to participate in any discussion that seeks solutions and education.

[Tweak]

"...Ridetech lacks integrity from the top down..."
"...Silence is ignorance..."
"...Bret and Ridetech offer nothing unless you poke the bear..."

Nice.

I thought we were here to resolve problems and maybe learn something.

I have previously declined to respond to these comments because my intent was to find solutions to problems and to learn from and maybe even educate the rest of the hotrod world about suspension issues. I also recognize that frustrations have a way of becoming magnified through a keyboard 8000 miles away. These kind of comments offer no resolution to your problem, nor do they help anyone else learn anything. I have a thick skin when it comes to insults...if your intent is to poke the bear, understand that you're going to need a bigger stick and a sharper tongue. If, however, you want help with your problems, I will need that elusive caster number to attempt to explain why you are not seeing the bumpsteer number we are.

Don... If you have voiced problems of any kind in the past, I can assure you that we responded. Your reference to us blaming these old cars for your problems is nothing more than us relaying an unfortunate truth of hotrodding.
I will be within 30 miles of your town next week at the Goodguys show. I will be more than happy to address any issues past or present with your suspension systems. Please look me up at the display booth or at the Autocross. Or if you won't be there, send me a direct email and I'll come to your shop to take a look. [email protected]

The comments about heim joints is valid. Until now, they are the solution that sucked the least to allow free rotation of the suspension. That's why we did this: https://www.ridetech.com/products/r-joint/
Until a few years ago, there were some really good durable heim joints available. In the never ending quest for cost reductions, they have all seemed to have deteriorated in quality. As of Jan 1, 2018, all Ridetech 4 link products will include R-Joint components.

We will continue to participate in any discussion that seeks solutions and education.

Over head applause. Incredible words Bret
To be so gifted

[Gmc427]

hi damien,so are lvvta happy with your set up now? will your design drag link clear sbc/bbc/ls sumps?i think ridetechs data was more to show that other maufactors spindles etc would not work with there set up, negitive marketing?so you have ended up with trirods and spindles only and the joints on the rods are crap as well?regards george ,ps nice how ridetech disapeared for a while there

[130fe]

Damien, I am the average consumer with little to no knowledge of how to design suspension systems. It has been brought up that everyones cars are different and I get that. I have Ridetech parts on my car and love them. I know there is R&D associated with these systems and in the end most of these aftermarket systems will improve your car compared to 50 year old suspension parts. Have you done any kind of R&D on your "fix"? You show pictures of a piece of metal with holes drilled in it, I assume there is more to it than that. I just find it odd that parts from a well known company don't meet the standards in your country's inspection but yours do? Maybe I missed the point?

[MAGONSTERZ68]

Bret,
are the heim end joint upgrade available at a discounted rate for your loyal customer base who bought, still own and enjoy RideTech products?151724

[dhutton]

Bret,
are the heim end joint upgrade available at a discounted rate for your loyal customer base who bought, still own and enjoy RideTech products?151724

There is no heim upgrade option for the Tru-Turn heim. The new R joints art too big. Maybe some day but I asked Brett and there is no firm date.

Don

[MAGONSTERZ68]

thx for the 411 Don

[Tweak]

A tech article in the latest copy of #nzv8 magazine about how I fixed my bumpsteer.
155371
155372

[130fe]

Damien, through this whole process did you experience bumpsteer while driving or was this a result of just the failed inspection? Was there another inspection station you could have gone to to get another opinion? Did you ever measure your subframe to see if it was straight or twisted? The reason I ask is because I had a twisted subframe and experienced bump steer. Never felt them while all of the components were stock, but when I started putting on aftermarket items like aftermarket arms (first iteration of my cars PT transformation back in 04) it was amplified to the point where it wasn't fun to drive even in town.

You never answered my question I posted a few posts back (#77), guess its easier to bash a company then to answer a couple of questions.