Holley Terminator Stealth Vs Sniper Vs Multiport

[jp455]

Hi all...looking to finally end my carburetor days. Ive been reading up and most of the threads seem to be about EZ EFI against Holley, or systems to run LS engines. For the time being Ill be keeping the Pontiac 455 so the questions really are two fold...

Is the Terminator Stealth having a larger ECU a better running unit than the Sniper?

Or should I not even bother with a carb style bolt on EFI system and go to a converted intake with injector bungs and multiport EFI?

[OLDFLM]

I've been contemplating the same on my 440-stroker Pontiac... cam size seems to be a factor... I'm debating between the Sniper or Terminator myself. (subscribed)

[Mr Nick]

I too had to decide between the Terminator Stealth and the Sniper, I ended up going with the Sniper and I'm very happy with it. Especially at half the price. (I had EZ-EFI on the car previously)

The Terminator does have more features for advanced users, but the Sniper can still be fined tuned with a laptop just like the Terminator, if you choose to.

The plus for the Terminator in your situation, is the ECU can support multi-port if you want to go that route in the future. Or get the Sniper now, and if you want multi-port in a few years, sell it and get the latest n greatest ECU that Holley has and go multi-port.

[OLDFLM]

^^^ What Nick said ^^^

I've looked at everything from the EZ 2.0, to the Terminator EFI to the Sniper EFI.

Sniper EFI $999.95
Sniper Tank $494.96 comes with Walbro 255 and holds 20.5 gallons
Sniper Fuel System $260.96 has 40' of Earls VaporGuard and fittings (and an external pump you won't need)
Sniper 1" drop base $22.46 has dents for TBI fittings
Earls *90 or *45 degree fittings for your application $8.06 each (2 required for TBI)
Add the Filter Regulator if you don't want to run a full length return line $130.46

Hard to beat the Sniper when you can do a new tank/pump to TBI for $2k total!

Nick, would like to hear your real world feedback on the system... as I've stated my 440cid Pontiac has a 248/260 solid with over .600 lift and 11:1 compression.

I'm concerned about the Sniper EFI's ability to work with a big cam and 11" of vacuum at idle.

[andrewb70]

If you think you want to go multi-point at some time in the future, then the Terminator Stealth makes sense, because it uses the HP ECU. If you plan to stick with a TBI, then the Sniper makes sense. There are other reasons to use the Terminator Stealth, like having 8 programmable I/Os that you can use for cool stuff like PWM fan control.

Andrew

[jp455]

Hi all...as always great feedback! A bit of a misunderstanding though, the question of multipoint is not whether I can go to that in the future but more a Terminator VS Sniper VS Multipoint type situation. Im just going to pick one, not go from one to multipoint. After this EFI upgrade (whatever route I end up going) the next upgrade will be to go LS.

My engine is mild...455, 6X heads, lowish compression, and a Comp hydraulic roller cam (duration 276/282, lift .502/.510) so I get the feeling that the Sniper wouldnt have the driveability/tuning issues Iv heard about.

[Mark Antrim]

One question I have for you, do you plan on keeping this car or do you plan on selling it in a few years? My reasoning is if you plan on keeping it, you will probably change out the engine for something a little more powerful down the road(its in our nature to want more power). Will the system you have now work with what you put in later? If you plan on playing with the car and sell it down the road do the sniper and save a few bucks.

[OLDFLM]

I've had my car since high school (first car) and I'm 50 now... so I can say without a doubt I'll never sell it.

The stroker 440cid Pontiac motor also makes 601hp so as much as an LT4 would sound sexy I just can't justify the cost for an additional 49hp, especially when I already have a 150hp shot in the trunk "just in case".

Which, btw, the Sniper system can also control timing, NOS and electric fans if needed/wanted.

[Mark Antrim]

There is also no mention of a trans. That also would be a deciding factor on the sniper vs terminator. I just went through this decision this month.

[OLDFLM]

Mark, I'm running a built 700R4 from Phoenix Transmission Products with their torque converter. It'll handle 600lbft but drives like normal on the street.

I'm think I "need" to put EFI TBI on the car. I had it out this past Saturday for 90 minutes with no issues but it was only 55* here in Orlando...

When the temps get hot in the summer it boils fuel out of the front bowl of the carb... so I want to do a complete tank to TBI.

Just want to make sure I get it right the first time... Thanks for all your input!

[Mark Antrim]

With the terminator I/O you could control torque converter lock up. I'm not sure about the sniper. I've been running a 700 also and a b&m lockup control, an ez efi and a msd timing controller. With the terminator I can do one box instead of 3 separate boxes.

[jp455]

As far as those points...I'm running a TKO600. And this used to be my dads car, it was my daily driver in college, have driven cross country a couple times and now that I moved to England I brought it over with me...so no, won't be selling it. As for the HP...after this carb/EFI swap I'd go to an LS but that will be several years down the line.

Right now I'm only focused on the better system for the 455 I have.

[jp455]

So far it looks like the Sniper wins out just because of price. For my engine/trans it seems the Terminator doesn't offer any extra functional benefit.

[Mark Antrim]

For your comb I agree, good choice!

[Mr Nick]

I suggest ordering from here.

https://www.efisystempro.com/

Excellent customer service, before and after the sale.

[jp455]

Cool thanks for the suggestion! What did you do as far as fuel tank, used the included pump or got a new tank with built in pump?

[Mr Nick]

I used a Tanks Inc tank with their fuel pump module. Which appears to be the same thing that Holley now sells as their Sniper tank.

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=143/mode=cat/cat143.htm

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_tanks/

[jp455]

That works out great also because my send is on the fritz so fuel gauge hasn't been working.

As far as functionality...did you get big torque/fuel mileage gains?

[Mr Nick]

My car never was properly tuned with the Q-Jet, so I can't compare to a carb. But I averaged 16 MPG on the Power Tour last year, and that's with a lot of low speed driving and idling in traffic, and high speed highway cruising. 400+ HP SBO, 5-speed and 3.90 gears.

Throttle response and idle quality are the two most immediate things I noticed, and I had FAST EZ-EFI on it before the Sniper.

[jp455]

Is the Qjet EVER properly tuned? haha! Seriously though...Iv got the same with my Holley, its very obviously running rich now at all RPMs and now being in the UK its not like I can go to the corner speed shop and get some jets. In any case...it will be great to be able to tune things on the little screen and have it stay that way. Not to mention the added drivability, fuel mileage, etc. that goes along with it.

Will add impressions once the job is done.

[OLDFLM]

With the terminator I/O you could control torque converter lock up. I'm not sure about the sniper. I've been running a 700 also and a b&m lockup control, an ez efi and a msd timing controller. With the terminator I can do one box instead of 3 separate boxes.

Sniper will NOT control TCC... looking forward to your install Mark! Please explain how the I/O controls TCC?

[Mark Antrim]

The tcc lock up is in the basic I/o. You use rpm and tps as your setting for controlling lock up. You can also use a speed sensor if you prefer. From the ecu to a relay will send 12 volts to the trans to lock up. I have a diagram that would explain the wiring better but hope you get the idea.

The way I found this is down load the software and play with it while I was waiting for my kit to come in. I knew that the dominator could control a 4l60e but didn't know it and the hp would do a 700.

[OLDFLM]

Good to know! I have dual fans and A/C and the Sniper only has 3 I/Os that I'm aware of for those functions... how many does the Terminator support and how much more was it than the Sniper?

I'm thinking about a grand more...?

[Mark Antrim]

The hp has 4 inputs and 4 outputs. Not sure on the price difference.

[jp455]

From what Ive seen its about 1200ish more.

Hadn't even thought of controlling extras like fans! Good to know. Mine is set up weird right now...its essentially on all the time, so...not good. Another thing this will resolve.
And since there would be 2 I/Os left the electric water pump could be controlled this way as well and have it come on once temp reaches 100 or so.

[OLDFLM]

Ballpark I figured $2k for the Sniper, $3k for the Terminator and $4-5k for multi-port... that's with the tank/pump/lines/fittings I'd outlined in an earlier post.

Another thing to consider with the Terminator vs the Sniper (if you need/want it) is that the Terminator has 8 injectors whereas the Sniper has 4.

The Sniper can support up to 650hp (per their tech line) and the Terminator up to 800hp... something to consider if you're planning power upgrades in the future.

[jp455]

I dont think for my engine that will be a problem...I havent dynoed it yet but probably only making about 450 or so. And no plans to upgrade it either. Next step up would be an LS swap.

[jp455]

Back to this topic for a quick question. Getting ready to install it, I’ll be using the he new Holley in tank fuel module. Will using the stock Firebird fuel hardline be ok?

[jp455]

Anyone? 3/8 or 5/16 fuel line ok for 450 fuel injected hp?

[OLDFLM]

-6AN or 3/8 is what Holley recommends.

[jp455]

Thanks for that! In a bit of confusion now though...I was told the Holley Tank Module has a 5/16 output. Maybe Ill just neck it up to the 3/8. But why would Holley make the pump 5/16 if the Sniper needs 3/8?

[jp455]

So not quite done with the tuning but almost. Even at 20% tuning its running very well! Ill post more pics and a video of how it runs when its 100%. Im getting a dyno session in too...just to see that its tuned 100% and the curiosity to see what the actual power figures are is too much! And yes, a new air filter base and filter are in the cards as well haha!

Heres a quick one on the way out to the dyno...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/04/0DyjJ3y-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/04/5ddtNJf-1.jpg

[Mr Nick]

What do you mean it's at 20% tuning?

Many people think the "Learn %" is a 0-100% range and it's done learning at 100%, that isn't true. It’s not a percent of completion . It’s just showing the % variance from base map it’s currently at.

[jp455]

Ohhhh...well now I feel stupid haha! Thanks for clarifying! So when is it satisfied it’s finished learning, when the O2 feedback is at an acceptable range throughout the fuel table?

In any case it’ll go on the dyno even if just to satisfy my curiosity!

[andrewb70]

The learn process compares actual AFR readings against the target AFR table and adjust the learn table accordingly. Occasionally it is a good idea to transfer the learn table adjustments to the base fuel table and smoothing the table.

This way the base table is adjusted closer to optimal and future adjustments are smaller.

Andrew

[jp455]

Hi Andrew...thanks for the info! I didnt get the software to do the laptop tuning (I assume its needed to do what you mentioned), but will do later on.

[Mr Nick]

The software is a free download. Once you transfer the learn table to the new base table a few times like Andrew mentioned, you can then reduce the amount of learn % allowed. This comes in handy in case a sensor goes bad, the Sniper won't over compensate by running dangerously lean or dump too much fuel. It will only vary 3-5% off the base table (whatever you set it to).

[jp455]

Cool! This system is looking much more handy than what I originally thought.

[stantaur]

Intrigued by the Sniper for a very simple setup I have (my fan's self controlled, no auto trans to worry about, etc.) except for the engine being an LT-1 with decent sized (253/259 @.050") solid roller, AFR 210s, 550 crank HP @ 6500. Here's a clip of the car driving through some twisties (https://youtu.be/bci7vSePwrY?t=10m22s), and you can see the A/F ratio in the ash tray at various loads. It's not always where I want it to be air/fuel wise, but it's far better than it was out-of-the-box.

Current carb is 750 CFM Mighty Demon with 78F/88R jets, 3.5 PV, and some tweaks to the idle/cruise (0.024" Idle Feed Restrictors F/R, .084 Idle Air Bleeds, .093 High Speed Air Bleeds). Idle is 950 RPM with 12" vacuum & 14.5:1 A/F, cruise is similar 14.5:1 in most ranges, and WOT is 13:1 which I'd like to get down to 12.5-ish with a little more finessing of HSABs and main jets.

My question is how well the Sniper (or Terminator, or ProFlow, or ____) can adhere to the usual goals of 14.7:1 idle/cruise and 12.5:1 WOT on fairly heavily cammed small blocks. I feel like I'm getting fairly close to dialed in with our Demon setup, but I'm spoiled from tuning our other cars with Hondata, AEM, etc. on a laptop.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[BuickGS]

Any of the systems will maintain whatever AFR you request it to (once it learns adequately). That is their primary mission! Keep in mind that your engine may or may not like the "usual" goals. I have had an EZ EFI and currently have a Terminator on my Buick. The engine preferred a little richer AFRs than your targets with both systems. It would lean surge if I set cruise AFRs in the 14.7 range. I change it to 13.5 and it runs fine. Lately I have been cold/warm start tuning my settings with the Terminator (the main reason I changed from the EZ-EFI), and have ended up richer than I was expecting to get it happy.
To figure our what WOT AFR is best, go to a drag strip and watch your mph while playing with your target AFR. Assuming the weather doesn't change much during your tuning session, the AFR resulting in the best mph is your winner.

[eville]

Trying to make this decision myself, Sniper or Terminator (TBI) for my 350.
I'm leaning Terminator because I like the more advanced tuning features in the ECU and I keep hearing about random injector problems on the Sniper. With all the Terminator items being user serviceable it seems like the clear choice.

Call me crazy, but I actually like the look of the Terminator 4 barrel TBI better than the Stealth, but the 3.5" LCD is only available on the Stealth. From what I can tell, there aren't any other differences between the 4 barrel TBI and the Stealth. Does anyone here know of any other differences or have an opinion on which system I should choose?

[gscherer78ta]

Does anyone have real world experience with the sniper or terminator controlling 500+hp engines and how does they do at idle?