Pro Touring Lap Times

[fastd]

I've been looking but haven't really found much info:
can please post their laps times from various well known tracks around the country. Just curious how much road course performance that some pro touring builds can get vs modern cars.

I am surprised how little info there is in this regard.

Ideally you would include some info about your suspension.

Interested to know how well pro touring car compare to a new camaro, mustang, etc.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

Just going to guess here, but there probably aren't enough people who have actually taken their P-T car to a full road course to compile an actual list. There will be a few people, but most of the people here normally run autocross, which isn't measurable car to car unless it's the same course layout every time. Not to mention how much costlier it is to run an actual road course.

[Typhoon1015]

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/2017-classic-industries-super-chevy-muscle-car-challenge-presented-by-falken-tire-the-calm-before-the-storm/

Super Chevy does this every year. Aftermarket companies bring out their chosen weapons and go head to head with a new car and each other for laptimes. This gets put in print in the magazine, but now lots of this content is getting put into videos.

[CSG]

The little bit of times I have seen had the newer cars pretty much killing the modified older stuff.

[rickpaw]

The little bit of times I have seen had the newer cars pretty much killing the modified older stuff.

Unless you have one of Mark Stielow's Camaros, which beat the new ZL1 Camaro back in 2012.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1212-built-vs-bought-1969-chevy-camaro-versus-2012-zl1/

[gscherer78ta]

One issue that won't show up in the data you are looking for is the driver variable. You can go to the results of the Optima events, for instance, and you can see the times of the GTV class vs. the GT class. What you are really looking for is the time a modern muscle car laps vs. a pro-touring car with the same driver.

From memory, It seems that the GTV and GT class winners are roughly the same in terms of lap times on road courses. A huge difference will be that most of the modern cars will have a nice air conditioned ride with a quiet cabin to play their music in for the trip home and the Pro-touring cars will probably roll with the windows open and be much louder inside the cabin.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

Our small little Pro-Touring market is pretty much based on 200 treadwear tires. Many of the sanctioning bodies we all run in use this whereas many other bodies allow R compound tires. We have ran Auto Club Speedway with Speed Ventures and Redline Time Attack a few times. The Unlimited cars(on race tires & unlimited Aero) are insanely fast. I've got video somewhere of a S2K passing our 540whp(3200lb) #ProjectReddawn Camaro like it was sitting still, on a straight.

Having said that if someone had some time you could compile lap times from some of the more popular tracks like Fontana, COTA, PPIR, Willow, Streets of Willow, Road America etc. There have been enough laps run at those tracks over the years to at least have some comparison. One thing that we run into though is even as much as we run Fontana there are multiple configurations that are used. Even the infield course can vary by 2 seconds or more just by adding a couple cones on the straight before the bridge.(Which is how Super Chevy runs it at the Challenge)

[fastd]

thanks but...I have been looking for lap times and I haven't been able to find specific lap times, just overall winners...

Not looking in the right spots or using the right search terms...

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

thanks but...I have been looking for lap times and I haven't been able to find specific lap times, just overall winners...

Not looking in the right spots or using the right search terms...

I hear ya.... I browsed driveusca for results and had no luck. They will list the times for all competitors if you can actually find the results page.

So Let's get this party started. Here are the results from the Super Chevy Muscle Car Challenge. This is the 1.4 Mile Infield course. All cars were run on the old compound Falken 615K 200 treadwear tires. Air temp was 110+, track temp was hovering around 150.

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2017/12/06/IMG_8622.md.jpg (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/aFch)


You can see the cone configuration in this video @ 1:10, 2:28, 3:48, 5:09, 6:28 etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftHkSus3qJI&t=112s

When I get some spare time I can go through some of the other events and post them up.

-J

[fastd]

this is great; thank you.

what year was this? is the track at willow springs or Auto Club Speedway or other?

[fastd]

and...are the cars on that list company sponsored? so for example, when it says Detroit Speed, can I assume that that car has the entire DSE catalog in it? thanks again.

[CSG]

and...are the cars on that list company sponsored? so for example, when it says Detroit Speed, can I assume that that car has the entire DSE catalog in it? thanks again.

Some google work will help. I found an article on that car. http://www.chevyhardcore.com/features/car-features/car-feature-jake-rozelles-1969-ultimate-street-car-camaro/

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

and...are the cars on that list company sponsored? so for example, when it says Detroit Speed, can I assume that that car has the entire DSE catalog in it? thanks again.

It is a suspension challenge so each suspension company gets an invite to bring their own entry. It was held at Auto Club Speedway.


Wilwood '73 Camaro = Brian Hobaugh (Mike Maier built suspension)
Heidt's = D&Z Customs built Camaro
'73 Vega is David Carroll's - Not sure what suspension but it has a crate Ecotec turbo 4 cylinder
Schwartz Performance = Ryan Buck's '68 Camaro
"W2W" = Week To Wicked

Here is the event coverage video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbiC1mBGBb8&feature=youtu.be

[mike@sim-seats]

Check out Grassroots Motorsports Ultimate Track Car Challenge. They usually get a few pro touring entries each year, and always run at VIR.

[fastd]

thanks so much for the info...any idea what model the 2017 camaro baseline car was?

[fastd]

thanks for the grassroots info; here are some 2014 results:

Class Winners
Tire Rack Ultimate Track Car Challenge Champion - Ben Keating - Dodge Viper SRT GT3-R - 1:45.394
Fastest Track Star - Ben Keating - Dodge Viper SRT GT3-R - 1:45.394
Fastest Real Door Slammer-Big Bore - James Clay - 2002 Porsche 911 - 1:53.607
Fastest Real Door Slammer - Small Bore - Douglas Wind - 2004 Dodge SRT 4 - 2:04.025
Fastest Vintage - Mill Robinson - 1967 Chevrolet Camaro - 2:12.588
Fastest Street Production - Robert Grace - 2011 BMW 1M - 2:03.688
Fastest All Wheel Drive - Dillon Machavern - 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo Super Trofeo - 1:54.039
Fastest Front Wheel Drive - Douglas Wind - Dodge SRT 4 - 2:04.025
Fastest BMW - Ryan Eversley - 2008 BMW 135 - 1:53.708
Fastest Ford - Kienan Weber - 2008 Ford Mustang - 2:01.269
Fastest Honda - Andy Hollis - 1989 Honda CRX - 2:05.847
Most Innovative Award - Robert Downes - 2008 BMW 135
Official's Choice Award - Todd Reid - EVSR
Competitor's Choice Award - Robert Downes - 2008 BMW 135
Continental Tire Contingency Award - Douglas Wind - 2004 Dodge SRT 4


https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/UTCC14/

[TheJDMan]

This is an older video but still relevant to this discussion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-Y2Hvnfrg

[fastd]

JDMan,
thanks; that is a good one...

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

thanks so much for the info...any idea what model the 2017 camaro baseline car was?

It was a 1LE SS M6

[fastd]

thanks TCI; super helpful.

please don't forget to check you files for me data when you get home as you mentioned the other day.
regards.

[michics]

I'll weigh in a little on this topic. I frequent our local Blackhawk Farms Raceway track and also Road America to spectate mostly and here in the midwest people just don't take their ProTouring cars to the road courses like people do on the west coast. I had my 70 Camaro to our short Blkhwk Farms track this past summer and kind of found it a total mis-match. My Camaro runs pretty strong but I'm a little rusty on my driving. But the real thing going on here is the amount newer Z06 Vettes and 1LE Camaro's out of Chicago are burning up the track. There are old guys like me with new Z06's going to the track for the first time and just driving around everyone else. With the exception of the really diehard guys like Steilow and Brian Hobaugh that spend extreme amounts of time and money to get there cars to work and the talent/ experience to said drivers most of our ProTouring cars just can't keep up. I read a article somewhere this past summer written by one of west coast hot shoe that spent considerable time refining his 69 Camaro to work on the track. The he bought a C5 Corvette and said there is no comparison. He could just drive the vette where he had to just throw the Camaro through the corners to make it go fast. The whole ProTouring thing is just a repeat of the ProStreet scene that started in the 80's. We want to look the part but really have no intention of every really pounding on these cars much.
As a side note on the new fast cars I'm not liking what I'm seeing with drivers buying the super fast vettes, camaros, GTR's and then pushing them to the max speed without safety equipment. How about 180mph at Road America in a Z06 with only a standard seatbelt. No Thanks!! I raced 800 - 900 hp off road trucks for 10 years and like all true race cars safety equipment abounds. I want to do more track events but not with my Camaro. I'm looking for older former retired SCCA race car that has full cage and the proper safety equipment to use as a track car. It will not be as fast as a Z06 or 1LE but a least I have protection in the event one of these these guys has a brain fart and tries to run over someone. Besides really think about the purpose of track day events.

[TheJDMan]

Some of us have built PT cars that actually see track time.

146776

146777

146778

146779

[fastd]

JDMan,

Looking good; you have any lap times to post vs modern cars?

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

I found the results from the 2016 Super Chevy Muscle Car Challenge. Same Road Course as 2017

https://i.hmjimg.com/images/2017/12/08/IMG_2552-mod.md.jpg (https://www.hostmyjunk.com/image/a9hN)

[Aficionado]

Some of us have built PT cars that actually see track time
[

Well-played. While no doubt some cars are built just for show ("faux touring," perhaps?) I've been under the impression that track time is an integral part of the PT experience.

[BonzoHansen]

Uh-oh, its the "what is pro touring" question.....

[CarlC]

Let's not open that can-o-worms.

From a cost/benefit standpoint, building an older pony or musclecar to try and keep up with modern technology is a losing proposition. There really is only one reason to try and build such a creature; the love of the car. It has to be love, because there is a lot of pain and expense involved that will never get the car to modern technology levels. When the best automotive brains on the planet have an unlimited budget to build something, it's kinda hard to keep up with that.

My co-driver has a total of $23k into a 2001 Z06 (not including consumables). All he does is change tires, oil, brakes, etc. No headaches. I can get out of the Camaro, take his out on the same track, and run 2-3 seconds faster, but there is no feeling of satisfaction (that love thing again) or similar driving experience.

There is something to be said about the satisfaction of taking an older car, driving 120 miles each way, get 24.6mpg @ 73.4mph average speed, run four 20 minute track sessions, and feeling your work come together. That's hard to get from a modern car.

I used to over-amp myself on trying to keep up with both modern tech and the ever-changing PT world of better and better parts. In the end, I find it far more enjoyable to spend the day at a track day with my friends, seeing if the new mods to the car work, and try to suck a little less at driving each session. I had a riot of a time at Willow Springs on Sunday and came home with a list of to-do's for the car that will enhance performance without breaking the bank, both in time and cash.

[SSLance]

NorthEast Muscle Car Challenge 2017 results.

Early Model go here...

http://www.orangeconeracing.com/eventsresults.php?id=264&op=place

Late model go here

http://www.orangeconeracing.com/eventsresults.php?id=265&op=place

Pretty good drivers and well prepared cars in both groups.

For some reason I can't get the result for Midwest Muscle Cars 2017 to load which would show how my car did against other early and late model cars at Putnam Park.

[SSLance]

Here are the results from MotorState 2017 at Gingerman, again, plenty of good drivers in well prepped cars in both early and late model.

https://www.motorstate.com/images/MSChallenge/GingerManOverall_BestTimes.pdf

[Aficionado]

Let's not open that can-o-worms.
.

Whoops...wasn't trying to start something....

[alocker]

Whoops...wasn't trying to start something....

No, I think it was good to evoke a response like Carl's. It's also proof we can have civil discussions on the Internet (I was losing faith that it was no longer possible). I am for sure on the faux side with my car. It was on purpose to keep me off the track because I know we're that road leads. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford to go down that path. Until then my tires will remain un-balled.

[CarlC]

No, I think it was good to evoke a response like Carl's. It's also proof we can have civil discussions on the Internet (I was losing faith that it was no longer possible).

Exactly. Too often in the past topics such as defining Pro-Touring quickly go off the rails. Can't we all just get along? (faith hopefully somewhat restored ;-) )

[fastd]

this is great info. thanks to all for you help.

[NOT A TA]

I've been looking but haven't really found much info:
can please post their laps times from various well known tracks around the country. Just curious how much road course performance that some pro touring builds can get vs modern cars.

I am surprised how little info there is in this regard.

Ideally you would include some info about your suspension.

Interested to know how well pro touring car compare to a new Camaro, Mustang, etc.

Part of the lack of lap times for PT type cars might be that most of the folks who do take their classic to road tracks sign up for the entry level HPDE type classes where no one is supposed to be "racing" or keeping track of lap times (and they're not experienced track drivers anyway). In entry level classes passing is usually only allowed with a point by and then only on certain designated straights. With the restraints it would be hard to get optimal lap times even if they were experienced drivers. Can't tell you how many times I'd catch up to a more powerful car through cornering sections only to have them not give a point by at the next passing opportunity and sprint away on the straight, it's an ego thing (and they don't want to have to follow me the whole straight at less than their full speed). Next cornering section I'd catch up and have to slow down. If we go a couple laps like that I'll pull in the hot pits for a short stop to separate us.

First track day I did back was at Lime Rock Park back around the turn of the century. There was an old guy there with a very old Morgan or something from maybe the 40's with open wheels and big tall skinny tires. He'd go around the car with a leather hammer between track sessions banging on the tri winged center nut of each wheel that held it on to be sure they were tight for the next session. On track I doubt he got much over 70 MPH but with scarf waving in the breeze and a big smile on his face he went round and round every session having a blast. I'm like that guy in a way. I never timed any of my laps, just enjoy going out and driving. I've run at Lime Rock, the old Moroso, Road Atlanta, Sebring, and PBIR.

The thing I've wondered about is, are our PT/G-machine type cars faster than the race cars that were actually used in say Trans Am racing back when they were new? Many have more power and with today's suspensions and tire technology it wouldn't surprise me if PT cars are lapping quicker times than the heroes of yesteryear.

Everybody likes pics so here's a couple on Sebring when a few of us with cars about the same speed were playing lead/follow and changing positions each lap to see other guys lines, braking points etc.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Sebring10309034-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Sebring%2009/Sebring10309034.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Sebring10309033-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Sebring%2009/Sebring10309033.jpg.html)

[GMachineDartGT]

1.08 Lime Rock.