Pro-Touring car prices???

[theturboman2010]

I tell you what guys,I'm fifty years old and have owned a **** ton of cars in my day!! I still own a 1966 true SS Chevelle 396 4-speed car that I paid a whopping $4500.00 for in 1985!! My Dad and I did a full frame-off restoration on the car in the early 90's. It's still a beautiful car but a got the bug to get a Pro-Touring 1969 Camaro and I can't believe the prices people are asking for these cars these days!!! I told my Dad what I was wanting to get and that people were asking anywhere between 50k-120k for these cars!!! He started laughing and said noway!!! Now he is 75 years old and doesn't really get onto a computer very much. I guess I feel the same way as him in a way!! When did these cars start going for these kind of prices? Hell I can buy a new z06 with 650hp with my Mom's GM discount for less than some of these cars are going for!!! I think it's because a bunch of rich guys fell in love with the sport of Hot Rods but cannot build or work on the cars themselves and these shops started building these cars for people charging crazy money for these builds!!! Then these rich guys get bored with the car and are now trying to get their money back!!! I think it's just ruined it for the average buyers!! Because now people with average cars are seeing what these guys are asking for their cars and think well **** if this guy wants 100k for his Camaro,mine isn't as nice so it must be worth 50k!!! I'm not sure where i was going with this but it's just scary what people are asking for cars these days!!! I probably should be happy that my Chevelle is worth more than what I paid for it back in the day!!!

[dhutton]

The parts cost alone for a decent LS powered pro touring car with aftermarket suspension, steering, brakes etc can easily be $50k or more. Add labor and the cost of a 69 Camaro builder and see what it costs.

And then there is rust repair plus paint and body work. It really adds up.

If you think they are overpriced build one or have one built for you. It will be quite an education.

And yes there are cars out there with nothing more than tubular control arms and wheels that guys claim are pro touring but they are not imho....

Don

[fishface]

I totally agree Don. I'm at about 55k on my car and that's with me doing the labor. By the time I get the paint done easily $70-75k. I'm sure I will never get that but intend to keep it anyway. I once heard that you could total up everything for an LS swap then double it. I'm starting to think maybe triple it if you want any bling.

[Tincup]

If you think its expensive to build a Chevy, try building a Mopar....

[XLexusTech]

It's not hard to spend six figures doing a quality build

[GoodysGotaCuda]

If you think its expensive to build a Chevy, try building a Mopar....

Definitely. I have an easy $45k in just parts on my car and a large portion of the parts are not new. The only labor I paid for was pretty minor body work and shooting paint and I have a "small" Hemi. Oh...and I haven't included the cost of the car, any reasonable and complete e-body is about $18-20k these days. It's easily a $100k [cost, not value] car if I had to start with buying one today and had a shop do the work.

Values of old cars have almost nothing to do with what you can go buy off of the showroom floor today. Completely different market. Hagerty didn't hesitate on insuring me for $70k...


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[HotRod47]

To the OP, yes, back in 1985 that Chevelle was only worth $4500. But time has moved on, that was 32 years ago and prices have sky rocketed. That early 90's frame off rest that cost pennies then, cost buckets of money in today's dollars.

My car, where I have done almost everything myself and I still have $35k in parts and 1500 hours in labor. Thats why these cars cost so much. If I were to have paid a shop to build this car, at a labor cost of lets say just $75.00 per hour. I would have had to pay $112,000 just in labor, now add the parts and my car would have cost me around $150k. Yes its a lot of money, but thats wy I built it and didn't have it built.

[sheck44]

LOL ,... call up DSE or the Roadster shop and ask them how much for an 'average build' pro touring 69' Camaro ... THEN you'll get sticker shock !!
Ya you can get Z06 for 1/2 the price but then you'll be like everyone else, and 2 years later you lost 1/2 your $$

There are lots of 69 Camaro's in your price range BUT it won't look like this ... These cost a lot of money to build, both in labour and parts.
There is over 1500 hours into this car ... just do the math, I'm certainly not rich but a rich kid did buy it !!

I laugh when all of a sudden guys want a pro-touring car then come to the realization that they are somewhat expensive. Its like someone wanting a Ferrari and then complaining because they can't afford one

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/10/IMG_6730_zpsunq78uxv-1.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/SCOBRA48/media/WAAAY%20OTT/IN10ENSE/IMG_6730_zpsunq78uxv.jpg.html)

[slimjim]

supply and demand, that's how it works, people pay the money, prices go up, there's a lot of 6 figure pro-tourers out there now, and also a lot of people paying that, that doesn't make the prices "crazy", and no-one said there's profit to be had.
Just like the story above, I've heard of people walking into a shop,"I've got 30k, I want my car to look like the last one you built.." but the last one cost almost 10 times that to build.
a lot of classics will follow suit, C10's and F100's are a bit behind the camaros and other pony/muscle cars so now's the time to buy that farm truck. Well that's what I'm telling the mrs...

[kochevy67]

LOL ,... call up DSE or the Roadster shop and ask them how much for an 'average build' pro touring 69' Camaro ... THEN you'll get sticker shock !!
Ya you can get Z06 for 1/2 the price but then you'll be like everyone else, and 2 years later you lost 1/2 your $$

There are lots of 69 Camaro's in your price range BUT it won't look like this ... These cost a lot of money to build, both in labour and parts.
There is over 1500 hours into this car ... just do the math, I'm certainly not rich but a rich kid did buy it !!

I laugh when all of a sudden guys want a pro-touring car then come to the realization that they are somewhat expensive. Its like someone wanting a Ferrari and then complaining because they can't afford one

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2017/10/IMG_6730_zpsunq78uxv-1.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/SCOBRA48/media/WAAAY%20OTT/IN10ENSE/IMG_6730_zpsunq78uxv.jpg.html)

That is a work of art there.

[rocketrod]

Yes, the prices seem high until you start adding up the cost of the parts you want, let alone the labor cost.

[J-440]

Actually it is a really great time to buy any pro-touring project. These things are cheap when you buy them already built. The resale value is terrible. Ever watch any of the auctions on TV? Man they are giving these things away. If you have a cool 50k that's burning a hole in your pocket, then go to an auction and pick up a 120k build on the cheap. If it has a modern drivetrain (which it probably does) you'll get a lot of miles, fun, reliability and head turns anywhere you go. In a sea of 1000hp NEW Camaros, Vettes, Stangs and Challengers, you'll be the one standing out.

[USAZR1]

Ten years ago, prices weren't so crazy and this site was booming. Now, costs have gone through the roof and this site is still booming. Wait, no it isn't.

Another site I spend a lot of time on,Team Chevelle, was doing great ten years ago and still is,today. High-dollar builds are the exception,not the rule, on that site.

Protouring has become a rich man's game,IMO. Too many people here honestly believe that if your car doesn't have a $1,500 pair of front spindles or $7,000 set of wheels, you're just a wannabe.
Go ahead and belittle me,if you want. I've been a member,off and on, for fifteen years and have seen the changes. I'm concerned. You should be.

[andrewb70]

Ten years ago, prices weren't so crazy and this site was booming. Now, costs have gone through the roof and this site is still booming. Wait, no it isn't.

Another site I spend a lot of time on,Team Chevelle, was doing great ten years ago and still is,today. High-dollar builds are the exception,not the rule, on that site.

Protouring has become a rich man's game,IMO. Too many people here honestly believe that if your car doesn't have a $1,500 pair of front spindles or $7,000 set of wheels, you're just a wannabe.
Go ahead and belittle me,if you want. I've been a member,off and on, for fifteen years and have seen the changes. I'm concerned. You should be.

Clint,

I respect your opinion, but I don't think it's all that.

If you look in the Project Update section you will see all kinds of builds, not just "high dollar" ones. There are numerous ways to go fast, and if someone really believes they need $1500 spindles and $7000 wheels, then that's their perspective.

Andrew

[heySkippy]

It's clear to me that forums in general are in decline, mostly because of competition from social media. It's happening faster with some sites than others, but it's happening everywhere.

[andrewb70]

It's clear to me that forums in general are in decline, mostly because of competition from social media. It's happening faster with some sites than others, but it's happening everywhere.

Facebook, instagram, twitter, etc...just don't offer what the forums offer.

Just ran across this today:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1882830-huron-speed-gen-5-single-turbo-kit.html#post19746672

I see stuff like this posted all the time.

Andrew

[Jetfixr320]

Facebook, instagram, twitter, etc...just don't offer what the forums offer.

Just ran across this today:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1882830-huron-speed-gen-5-single-turbo-kit.html#post19746672

I see stuff like this posted all the time.

Andrew

I agree.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I tire of people complaining of the high costs of these pro-touring cars. The standard old hotrod with a few bolt ons, done up like the 70's is still around, and they can be had for the same prices as these cars always used to be (adjusted for inflation of course). I browse all the time, there are still plenty of deals to be had, especially on the project car end. What has changed, is the level that these cars are taken to. It is a surprise how desirable these cars have become. I saw it firsthand at Barrett-Jackson last January. Talked to an owner selling his gorgeous red 70 Camaro with full DSE suspension, LS, all the good stuff... and it wasn't even an original RS car (cloned now), sold for $150k. Yes, that's a great chunk of change, but like what's been previously mentioned in this thread, start adding up the cost of the parts that went into these cars. Then factor in the cost of $75-100 an hour for a shop to build it. Now the price isn't out of line. The difference now is that these cars are capable of EVERYTHING. 20 years ago, hotrods were still primitive. Many were unable to drive out of town. It was rare to see one with A/C. MPG? You've got to be joking, right?

Now in 2017, these cars can handle as good as a new sports car. They have EFI, overdrive, efficient engine designs (25+ mpg), cold A/C, stop on a dime, all the creature comforts, you can drive cross-country with them, they do everything well now. It's not the same car world as it was "back in the day". You can still buy a nice Chevelle or Camaro like they've always been like for $30k all day long, I just don't get why it's expected that throwing in modern P-T reliability, performance, comfort, handling, etc shouldn't cost any more than a Chevelle with Cragars and glasspacks.

This is why you don't buy one done, and you build it. I figure I'll be about $30-35k into my 71 Firebird, but it'll be worth substantially more. That's the way it works. Not everyone can build them, so the ones that do... do, and reap the benefits, whether you're one person, or a shop.

[BMR Sales]

It's clear to me that forums in general are in decline, mostly because of competition from social media. It's happening faster with some sites than others, but it's happening everywhere.

Personally, I hope this is a temporary hiccup. Facebook & Instagram don't have the depth that Forums do. It's easy to search Forums.

[BMR Sales]

I tell you what guys,I'm fifty years old and have owned a **** ton of cars in my day!! I still own a 1966 true SS Chevelle 396 4-speed car that I paid a whopping $4500.00 for in 1985!! My Dad and I did a full frame-off restoration on the car in the early 90's. It's still a beautiful car but a got the bug to get a Pro-Touring 1969 Camaro and I can't believe the prices people are asking for these cars these days!!! I told my Dad what I was wanting to get and that people were asking anywhere between 50k-120k for these cars!!! He started laughing and said noway!!! Now he is 75 years old and doesn't really get onto a computer very much. I guess I feel the same way as him in a way!! When did these cars start going for these kind of prices? Hell I can buy a new z06 with 650hp with my Mom's GM discount for less than some of these cars are going for!!! I think it's because a bunch of rich guys fell in love with the sport of Hot Rods but cannot build or work on the cars themselves and these shops started building these cars for people charging crazy money for these builds!!! Then these rich guys get bored with the car and are now trying to get their money back!!! I think it's just ruined it for the average buyers!! Because now people with average cars are seeing what these guys are asking for their cars and think well **** if this guy wants 100k for his Camaro,mine isn't as nice so it must be worth 50k!!! I'm not sure where i was going with this but it's just scary what people are asking for cars these days!!! I probably should be happy that my Chevelle is worth more than what I paid for it back in the day!!!

Any car that has any collectable value has gone up. This is mostly become people that dreamed about these cars when they were new, now have the money to buy them.

You should see the prices of Porsches! I just sold one that I would have never gotten the same $$ out of even 3 years ago.

[USAZR1]

Personally, I hope this is a temporary hiccup. Facebook & Instagram don't have the depth that Forums do. It's easy to search Forums.


Sure hope it's temporary,too. I almost deleted my facebook account last night and even if I don't, I'm going to drop my membership to some of the car groups I now belong to.
I really like this site and don't want to lose it.

[killer69]

here is some quick math on the car building that i have come up with over the years.
excluding the purchase price of the car.
add up all the parts....... All of them, the hose clamps, the oil the ECT. Then if a shop is building it, figure 1.25 dollars in labor for every dollar in parts. no this will not be a Ring Brothers build they are likely 4.00 in labor to parts.

And yes just because the wheels are 7000.00 you still have to add in that labor and no it does not cost 8750.00 to install the wheels. but at the end of the day

OH and those crazy 1500.00 spindles!!!!

[theturboman2010]

I didn't want to start a big fight on here by know means!! I'm just saying there is a disconnect somewhere on the cost of these Pro-touring cars,be it the cost of the parts or the cost of the labor. Not sure if you guy's get to many car shows but I live 30-minutes from Summit Racing and they had a big Camaro car show day about 2-weeks ago. I could not believe that almost every Camaro there was the new style 5th Gen or newer. That's because in my opinion people are going out and buying a Zl1 that has 585-650 hp for a **** ton less than these Pro-Touring cars are going for. Hell like I said you can almost buy 2 ZO6's for that price too!! And know Pro-Touring car is going to out handle those cars!! I'm an old school guy myself and really love the look of the old cars,so I will keep my 66 Chevelle and just look at the rich guy's Pro-Touring cars!!!

[dhutton]

here is some quick math on the car building that i have come up with over the years.
excluding the purchase price of the car.
add up all the parts....... All of them, the hose clamps, the oil the ECT. Then if a shop is building it, figure 1.25 dollars in labor for every dollar in parts. no this will not be a Ring Brothers build they are likely 4.00 in labor to parts.

And yes just because the wheels are 7000.00 you still have to add in that labor and no it does not cost 8750.00 to install the wheels. but at the end of the day

OH and those crazy 1500.00 spindles!!!!

If $1500 spindles are crazy those $2500 spindles must be over the top insane... :lmao:

Don

[dhutton]

I didn't want to start a big fight on here by know means!! I'm just saying there is a disconnect somewhere on the cost of these Pro-touring cars,be it the cost of the parts or the cost of the labor. Not sure if you guy's get to many car shows but I live 30-minutes from Summit Racing and they had a big Camaro car show day about 2-weeks ago. I could not believe that almost every Camaro there was the new style 5th Gen or newer. That's because in my opinion people are going out and buying a Zl1 that has 585-650 hp for a **** ton less than these Pro-Touring cars are going for. Hell like I said you can almost buy 2 ZO6's for that price too!! And know Pro-Touring car is going to out handle those cars!! I'm an old school guy myself and really love the look of the old cars,so I will keep my 66 Chevelle and just look at the rich guy's Pro-Touring cars!!!

Pro-touring cars are not for everyone. And that is a good thing for guys who want something different from what you can get off the shelf at the local Chevy dealer.

Don

[USAZR1]

I get it, go be poor somewhere else :lmao:

[parsonsj]

I made my own spindles (well, a friend ran the machine, and another friend did the design). It took 18 months get all that done. All the labor was free, the machine time was free, and the material was free.

I would have been thoroughly grateful to be able to purchase a set of those dirt-cheap $1500 spindles, and save that time. :)

[slimjim]

Regardless of the topic of this thread, it has been a great discussion, and reminds me of a time about 3 years ago when I bought my rolling shell of a Camaro from a shop(not a good shop) who said "man you're probably gonna end up pouring 60 grand into this". And I left thinking he was crazy, I'll build it much cheaper...

Oh how I wish he was right!

I'm not saying I'd change anything, Pro-touring is by far the best form of car styling around(to me), but my point being, You're better off knowing what you're getting into beforehand.

[raustinss]

First I'm Canadian and it costs even more here due to exchange rates duty etc..... this very topic is why my car is taking quite a long time to build...38 and my first vacation is in Feb 2018, sacrifices must be made to play with the big dogs . I have zero budget set for the car as well . I'm not settling for nothing other then what is in my mind . The car will be done one day and it will be jaw dropping for me and hopefully some of you. Where I'm going with this is , you cant build a Ring Brothers, Foose , Roadster shop, Detroit speed quality car at home for 50 k ..... sure you can keep a stock subframe add 5 grand in suspension 3 grand in wheels 2 grand in brakes and then toss a donor LS/t56 combo at it but, guess what that's like comparing a Chevy Cruz to a rolls. People will pay whatever they want and can if its something they can justify so if someone wants a Camaro and wants the best they'll pay it which drives up the prices of all the average cars. For what its worth in 1998 I bought my numbers matching 1970 Chevelle SS 396 4 speed with 92k miles for 6500 Canadian and that was on the road perfectly driveable ...! ill take 8 more at that price today if I could .

[dhutton]

If you do your own work including paint you can have a pretty damn fine pro-touring car for $50k imho. SEMA worthy probably not but I don’t think that is not the goal of most gearheads.

Don

[SSLOW6.0]

If you do your own work including paint you can have a pretty damn fine pro-touring car for $50k imho. SEMA worthy probably not but I don’t think that is not the goal of most gearheads.

Don

Depends on what car you start with... I started with a $1300 86 Monte Carlo SS. I've got 6K in suspension wheels and tires, $3500 into an LS swap, $800 into a transmission and $1000 into a rear end. Paint and body work was 10K 12 years ago. It could use wider wheels and tires, a manual transmission and refreshed paint and body work and maybe a ford 9 inch. But even if I did all that, I'd struggle to spend 50k on it.

[dhutton]

Depends on what car you start with... I started with a $1300 86 Monte Carlo SS. I've got 6K in suspension wheels and tires, $3500 into an LS swap, $800 into a transmission and $1000 into a rear end. Paint and body work was 10K 12 years ago. It could use wider wheels and tires, a manual transmission and refreshed paint and body work and maybe a ford 9 inch. But even if I did all that, I'd struggle to spend 50k on it.

I agree decent cars can be built for less. The 69 Firebird in my avatar had a stock LS1, Art Morrison subframe, Ridetech four link, C5 brakes, used HRE wheels etc and was built for less than $30k. Still one of my favorite builds. It was great fun to drive and I learned a lot.

I see guys embark on projects without a plan or budget in place and quite often these cars are never completed. Both are key to project success imho.

Don

[Build-It-Break-It]

I think what drives up the cost is mostly the shop labor. If you personally aren't making $45-85 an hour why would you pay a shop that hourly rate? People can argue,equipment cost,shop rent,light,blah blah blah but once those tools are paid for they're paid for so that cost eventually gets paid off.

Lots of places operate with expensive equipment with low customer charges. Food industry,grocery stores etc.

Imagine going to buy Milk at the store and they told you "that'll be $75 dollars sir". "Oh it's high because we had to milk the cow,pay the farmers,the hay for the cows, pasteurizing the milk,bottle the milk,the bottle cost,truck freight,etc etc" your head would explode.


You wouldn't pay those high rates any where else besides the car industry and hospitals. Everything takes time to do so that can't be argued either.

But it's like anything,you keep paying,people will keep charging you.

At the end of the day the consumer determines the car prices.

$1.25 for every dollar in parts just doesn't add up. That only makes sense for the shops wallets. Most shops require the techs to buy their own tools to so that cost isn't on the shop.

$7000 rims can't be $1750 in shop labor to install (using $1 to $1.25 cost rate). That's just insane.

With that math a set of mini tubs should cost less than $500 to install in labor. I bet the math doesn't add up now. Shops want 40 hours time at $65-85 an hour to do mini tubs.

[dhutton]

I think what drives up the cost is mostly the shop labor. If you personally aren't making $45-85 an hour why would you pay a shop that hourly rate? People can argue,equipment cost,shop rent,light,blah blah blah but once those tools are paid for they're paid for so that cost eventually gets paid off.

Lots of places operate with expensive equipment with low customer charges. Food industry,grocery stores etc.

Imagine going to buy Milk at the store and they told you "that'll be $75 dollars sir". "Oh it's high because we had to milk the cow,pay the farmers,the hay for the cows, pasteurizing the milk,bottle the milk,the bottle cost,truck freight,etc etc" your head would explode.


You wouldn't pay those high rates any where else besides the car industry and hospitals. Everything takes time to do so that can't be argued either.

But it's like anything,you keep paying,people will keep charging you.

At the end of the day the consumer determines the car prices.

$1.25 for every dollar in parts just doesn't add up. That only makes sense for the shops wallets. Most shops require the techs to buy their own tools to so that cost isn't on the shop.

$7000 rims can't be $1750 in shop labor to install (using $1 to $1.25 cost rate). That's just insane.

With that math a set of mini tubs should cost less than $500 to install in labor. I bet the math doesn't add up now. Shops want 40 hours time at $65-85 an hour to do mini tubs.

I think you might have misunderstood Blake. He is saying the total labor of the whole build usually works out to 1.25 of the total parts cost. Individual items vary widely but the average at the end of the build is 1.25. At least that is how I read it.

Don

[BMR Sales]

I didn't want to start a big fight on here by know means!! I'm just saying there is a disconnect somewhere on the cost of these Pro-touring cars,be it the cost of the parts or the cost of the labor. Not sure if you guy's get to many car shows but I live 30-minutes from Summit Racing and they had a big Camaro car show day about 2-weeks ago. I could not believe that almost every Camaro there was the new style 5th Gen or newer. That's because in my opinion people are going out and buying a Zl1 that has 585-650 hp for a **** ton less than these Pro-Touring cars are going for. Hell like I said you can almost buy 2 ZO6's for that price too!! And know Pro-Touring car is going to out handle those cars!! I'm an old school guy myself and really love the look of the old cars,so I will keep my 66 Chevelle and just look at the rich guy's Pro-Touring cars!!!

The appeal of a New Camaro (SS, ZL1, etc) is people can buy it today and drive it today. They are High HP and can Handle. But anyone can have one - heck here they are starting to pop up on the Buy Here, Pay Here lots.

A Pro Touring Car is about the nostalgic look with modern Performance & Handling. They can be Home Built (I will have $40k in my Camaro and I'm in the Industry where I get a few breaks), but a lot of people don't have the skills to carry it off, hence the Shop built cars. And then you have The Roadster Shop, Detroit Speed, Ring Bros Builds - these are usually over the top with one-off custom parts.

[Build-It-Break-It]

I think you might have misunderstood Blake. He is saying the total labor of the whole build usually works out to 1.25 of the total parts cost. Individual items vary widely but the average at the end of the build is 1.25. At least that is how I read it.

Don

No I get Blake meant but even then the customers bill wouldn't make sense. It's just pushing money from one job to the other to average it out.

I know shops need to make a living but $85 to $150 an hour?

I've been wrenching for 16 years and the highest paid mechanic I've met in California is only $42 an hour and still needed to supply his own tools. With paying the fabricator or mechanic that rate where's the Additional cost passed on to the customer at $85 to $150 shop rate? Even if the shop buys parts for the customer they're still paying lower then cost usually.

[rickpaw]

No I get Blake meant but even then the customers bill wouldn't make sense. It's just pushing money from one job to the other to average it out.

I know shops need to make a living but $85 to $150 an hour?

I've been wrenching for 16 years and the highest paid mechanic I've met in California is only $42 an hour and still needed to supply his own tools. With paying the fabricator or mechanic that rate where's the Additional cost passed on to the customer at $85 to $150 shop rate? Even if the shop buys parts for the customer they're still paying lower then cost usually.

You know the shop owner still have to make money right, plus pay the rent/insurance/benefits if he offers it to the employees? And we can't really compare the a grocery store to a custom car shop. Grocery stores deal in much higher volume, thus lower costs.

I have sunk over $40k over the years into my Firebird by the time it was done. Now, I would have spent half of that amount if I were to do it over. Now, that were strictly the cost of parts (although some of it were the result in change of direction), I did all the work myself other than the engine machining, and final color shoot

[lxg44]

You know the shop owner still have to make money right, plus pay the rent/insurance/benefits if he offers it to the employees? And we can't really compare the a grocery store to a custom car shop. Grocery stores deal in much higher volume, thus lower costs.

That is exactly correct. See how much it costs you for a gallon of milk if you have to buy the cow, feed it, house it, keep it healthy, clean up after it and milk it. Then see how much your homemade milk costs for a gallon if you pay a local kid to do all that labor for you. A dairy company produces millions of gallons of milk each day so they can sell it for much less. Same with new cars. Chevy, Ford and Dodge make tens of thousands of new muscle cars each year which is why they can sell them for 1/2 or less of what it costs for a high quality Pro Touring build. How many builds do Roadster Shop, Ring Brothers and Detroit Speed put out each year combined? 10,20 maybe 30? However, every one of those builds draws a crowd when its out in the wild.

I have a business myself (not in the car industry) so I know what it costs to cover all the other expenses above the actual labor cost. I have no issue with a $75 or $85 an hour shop rate. As long as the work is done at a high quality, honestly and efficiently, its a good deal. My problem is with the shops that take your money and return an inferior product, if they return anything at all. Or they estimate 10 hrs to complete a task then charge you for 20 hrs. Too many of those stories are out there.

[Build-It-Break-It]

You know the shop owner still have to make money right, plus pay the rent/insurance/benefits if he offers it to the employees? And we can't really compare the a grocery store to a custom car shop. Grocery stores deal in much higher volume, thus lower costs.

I have sunk over $40k over the years into my Firebird by the time it was done. Now, I would have spent half of that amount if I were to do it over. Now, that were strictly the cost of parts (although some of it were the result in change of direction), I did all the work myself other than the engine machining, and final color shoot

Those expenses are for ALL businesses not just car shops. All shops,fast food,school districts pay the same expenses.

And high volume doesn't always mean lower costs. Ace Hardware isn't as big as home depot but charge simular prices? How's that? Ace Hardware is no where near the size as home depot. That's just an example.

Everyone needs to make money I totally
Agree . But to pay a shop 2 to 3 times more then most regular mechanic or fabrication jobs pay? And please don't say it's a skill or hard job. The jobs of a standard mechanic or fabricator are very simular to a car builder. There's lots of jobs that are just as hard or harder with lower pay. So why such high shop rates?

We're getting off subject of the OP but I agree to a point with the car costs being to high. I'm just saying the labor rates of shops are so high that they count for the majority of the high build cost.

I can afford to send my car to a shop but choose to do my own car because I refuse to pay $85 an hour. It's more then I make an hour so it just seems insane for something that's a hobby or weekend cruiser.

There's soldiers,fire man,Police officers etc who risk there life's that don't make $85 an hour. Is there job easier? Require less skill? Has less value?

[BMR Sales]

Those expenses are for ALL businesses not just car shops. All shops,fast food,school districts pay the same expenses.

And high volume doesn't always mean lower costs. Ace Hardware isn't as big as home depot but charge simular prices? How's that? Ace Hardware is no where near the size as home depot. That's just an example.

Everyone needs to make money I totally
Agree . But to pay a shop 2 to 3 times more then most regular mechanic or fabrication jobs pay? And please don't say it's a skill or hard job. The jobs of a standard mechanic or fabricator are very simular to a car builder. There's lots of jobs that are just as hard or harder with lower pay. So why such high shop rates?

We're getting off subject of the OP but I agree to a point with the car costs being to high. I'm just saying the labor rates of shops are so high that they count for the majority of the high build cost.

I can afford to send my car to a shop but choose to do my own car because I refuse to pay $85 an hour. It's more then I make an hour so it just seems insane for something that's a hobby or weekend cruiser.

There's soldiers,fire man,Police officers etc who risk there life's that don't make $85 an hour. Is there job easier? Require less skill? Has less value?

Actually $85 an hour is pretty cheap! I was a Motorsports Manager at a High End Dealership and our Labor Rate was $115 an hour and the highest paid mechanic was making $25 an hour. Businesses have to make a profit or they go out of business. Rent, Insurance (the Biggie), Receptionist, etc all come into play.

Comparing Home Depot and Ace Hardware doesn't work. Home Depot is bigger but it's not like Ace is small. Also Ace has Distribution Centers that they bring in larger Orders and Home Depot does not. If Ace charged a higher price on items they wouldn't get the business.

Today's "Standard" Mechanic I wouldn't trust to change my Oil! High End Car Builders are craftsman, not the idiots you see at Gas Monkey!

Are Soldiers, Firemen, Policemen, Teachers underpaid? Sure, but they also get Benefits that most Mechanics don't get. Should a Fortune 500 CEO make Tens of Millions of Dollars while I make less than I did 10 Years ago when I have the same education? No, but nobody said life was fair!

[Build-It-Break-It]

Actually $85 an hour is pretty cheap! I was a Motorsports Manager at a High End Dealership and our Labor Rate was $115 an hour and the highest paid mechanic was making $25 an hour. Businesses have to make a profit or they go out of business. Rent, Insurance (the Biggie), Receptionist, etc all come into play.

Comparing Home Depot and Ace Hardware doesn't work. Home Depot is bigger but it's not like Ace is small. Also Ace has Distribution Centers that they bring in larger Orders and Home Depot does not. If Ace charged a higher price on items they wouldn't get the business.

Today's "Standard" Mechanic I wouldn't trust to change my Oil! High End Car Builders are craftsman, not the idiots you see at Gas Monkey!

Are Soldiers, Firemen, Policemen, Teachers underpaid? Sure, but they also get Benefits that most Mechanics don't get. Should a Fortune 500 CEO make Tens of Millions of Dollars while I make less than I did 10 Years ago when I have the same education? No, but nobody said life was fair!

Once again,those are all expenses all business have.

So charging the customer 4 times the amount they pay the person actually doing the work makes sense for the customer?

I'm just saying as long as people keep paying the high shop rates the car prices will continue to be high.

That goes for anything we buy,houses etc.

[lxg44]

Once again,those are all expenses all business have.

So charging the customer 4 times the amount they pay the person actually doing the work makes sense for the customer?

I'm just saying as long as people keep paying the high shop rates the car prices will continue to be high.

That goes for anything we buy,houses etc.

Yes all business have those expenses, so where does the car builder get reimbursed for them? Its through the hourly rate. As for the HD and Ace analogy they keep their pricing down through volume of sales. Also, more to the point, they don't actually make the hardware. They just buy in bulk just like you could. But how much would a bolt cost if you actually had to make each one yourself compared to buying in bulk?

[raustinss]

I am a custom metal fabricator and have been for almost 15 yrs ....yes theres lots of cutting and grinding welding etc. I don't have the skills to fab a fender . Those skills alone deserve a higher rate of pay then what I make. Keep in mind theres also a huge difference in being a car "assembler" and a car builder . That difference is what separate's the premium builders from the more minor players . Its also better quality tools . In America you can buy a harbour freight welder or a Lincoln. all shop equipment is the same . Jimmey's hot rod shop wont have a CNC mill but Foose does.
Don't forget the details ,Ring brothers hinges, Anvil Auto carbon goodies , ZR1 brakes a, LS7 these items are all items that are going on or in my chevelle, aside from the actual parts cost on say the anvil hood or trunk . fitting carbon components will add a ton more time vs steel ones . ZR1 brakes will fit under some 18" wheels if measured correctly but that takes time vs Z06 brakes which will fit under almost every 18" wheel. LS7 oil lines vs a LS3 parts and labour for all those lines is way more and crazy more if you make some out of hardline .

[theturboman2010]

I guess in a perfect world Parts would be a lot cheaper and finding guy's that did a great job for a fair price would make the sport probably full of great looking Pro-Touring cars!!! Then when you went to a car show there would be a lot more classics there and not as many New cars there and everybody would have something to talk about. I have been lucky to have had a great Dad that helped me do everything in my total body off restoration back in the 90's!! Plus it helped when he did the motor work and painted the car too!!!! Like I said earlier there is nothing better looking in my opinion than a sweet looking Pro-touring classic cruising down the road!!!

[BMR Sales]

Once again,those are all expenses all business have.

So charging the customer 4 times the amount they pay the person actually doing the work makes sense for the customer?

I'm just saying as long as people keep paying the high shop rates the car prices will continue to be high.

That goes for anything we buy,houses etc.

Do you think that Home Depot or Ace pays $36 a gallon for paint. No they pay $9 and charge you $36.

Yes a shop needs to charge 4x or more what the person doing the work is making.

This is the kind of Debate I see all the time in USA vs Chinese Parts. People say that we should charge 2x what Chinese parts cost. But what about our Intellectual Property that is Stolen & copied, Our R&D, our Fleet of Cars to test, our CNC Machines, Presses, Powdercoat Booths & Ovens, Welding Stations, Sponsoring Forums, Marketing, Traveling & Displaying at Shows, Insurance, Building Costs (we've out-grown the building we moved into 5 Years ago), etc

[Turbo6inKY]

Do you think that Home Depot or Ace pays $36 a gallon for paint. No they pay $9 and charge you $36.

Yes a shop needs to charge 4x or more what the person doing the work is making.

This is the kind of Debate I see all the time in USA vs Chinese Parts. People say that we should charge 2x what Chinese parts cost. But what about our Intellectual Property that is Stolen & copied, Our R&D, our Fleet of Cars to test, our CNC Machines, Presses, Powdercoat Booths & Ovens, Welding Stations, Sponsoring Forums, Marketing, Traveling & Displaying at Shows, Insurance, Building Costs (we've out-grown the building we moved into 5 Years ago), etc

A lot of people have no idea how much it costs to run the business on top of the labor. They also don't understand that nobody makes money on parts, either. Even if you have a small margin on them, it always gets wiped out on shipping the first time you have to return something.

hell, even outside of the specialty and fabrication market, several of my friends own general auto shops. Their labor rates range from $85-$125/hr for their techs, and they're barely making a profit.

Just think about this: failure rate on replacement parts approaches 50 percent on some items (alternators, for instance). But when a shop puts an alternator on and warranties the work, and that alternator fails in 1000 miles (or never works to begin with), the shop has to r&r that thing for free. Sure, Worldpac replaces the part for no charge. But they don't reimburse the shop for extra time to replace it again. All of that overhead is built into the shop rate.

Nevermind the actual cost of the labor. Pay a guy $25/hr? It costs you an additional 6% on top of that for the employer share of FICA, unemployment insurance premiums, benefits like health care if it's offered, etc. Sure the tech's hourly rate is $25/hr, but he's costing the company nearly $40 on the back end.

[BMR Sales]

A lot of people have no idea how much it costs to run the business on top of the labor. They also don't understand that nobody makes money on parts, either. Even if you have a small margin on them, it always gets wiped out on shipping the first time you have to return something.

hell, even outside of the specialty and fabrication market, several of my friends own general auto shops. Their labor rates range from $85-$125/hr for their techs, and they're barely making a profit.

Just think about this: failure rate on replacement parts approaches 50 percent on some items (alternators, for instance). But when a shop puts an alternator on and warranties the work, and that alternator fails in 1000 miles (or never works to begin with), the shop has to r&r that thing for free. Sure, Worldpac replaces the part for no charge. But they don't reimburse the shop for extra time to replace it again. All of that overhead is built into the shop rate.

Nevermind the actual cost of the labor. Pay a guy $25/hr? It costs you an additional 6% on top of that for the employer share of FICA, unemployment insurance premiums, benefits like health care if it's offered, etc. Sure the tech's hourly rate is $25/hr, but he's costing the company nearly $40 on the back end.

Very Good Points!

[dontlifttoshift]

There is so much facepalm in this thread.

Think the hot rod shops are getting rich with their exorbitant labor rates? Start your own, charge half price, and win!

[Build-It-Break-It]

Delete

[parsonsj]

There is so much facepalm in this thread.That's your quote of the week winner!

[TheJDMan]

Agreed!

[dontlifttoshift]

That's your quote of the week winner!

So did I win a vacation?

[theturboman2010]

Donny,

I believe you just wrapped it up right there!! I noticed on the cars for sale forum there is Pro-Touring car on there for sale as a project for 43k. Car looks awesome and seems like a fair price for what you get,if you could finish it yourself. But I noticed it says over 1600 hours in labor so far!! Wouldn't that make the car worth at least $120,000 right there alone??? Just saying.

[dontlifttoshift]

Just saying what?

[rustomatic]

The snake that pro-touring became is rapidly eating its own tail. I welcome a return to reasonable hotrodding (creative building as opposed to competitive purchasing/subcontracting), which can totally include autocross and track day performance (instead of dragstrip-only). Pro-touring as a concept did to itself what the financing trend(s) did to certain housing markets a decade ago (they priced themselves out of reality, then the bottom fell out). When you tell hotrodders that they need to spend ten grand for a front suspension setup or a dinosaur-level stick axle (or four grand for front brakes), they will go elsewhere, and smartly so. There's a cool, affordable body out there for an awesome project--it's just not a Camaro, Mustang, or Cuda. That's what this concept used to be all about.

[dontlifttoshift]

Hot Rodding is as old as the automobile itself, it has always been about going, turning, and stopping faster, being more comfortable, safer, and better looking.....none of this is new.....it's not even a recent development. Neither is the money.

Remember when you had to cast your own intake? Me neither, but that's the way it was until guys like Vic Edelbrock, and hundreds of others, started making parts. Then it got easier.

Time and money are both currency, you are paying either way.

[theturboman2010]

Just saying in the for-sale ad it says 1600 hours of fab work,so at $75.00 per hour that's $120,000 right!! Plus it says over $30,000 in body work. So why sell it for only 43k? Shouldn't they be starting at like 150k? That's what they would charge you if you brought them a car to build right? Doesn't really make sense to me.

[BonzoHansen]

There is so much facepalm in this thread.

Think the hot rod shops are getting rich with their exorbitant labor rates? Start your own, charge half price, and win!
Lol yes

And it just keeps going....

[parsonsj]

Just saying in the for-sale ad it says 1600 hours of fab work,so at $75.00 per hour that's $120,000 right!! Plus it says over $30,000 in body work. So why sell it for only 43k? Shouldn't they be starting at like 150k? That's what they would charge you if you brought them a car to build right? Doesn't really make sense to me.It's selling (or not selling, actually) for what it's worth. The seller is trying to import what it's worth based on what it cost, but as we all know, that's a very loose relationship.

If you want to play with these car-toys, play away. But they are just toys, and it's a rare toy that is worth more than it cost.

[dontlifttoshift]

Just saying in the for-sale ad it says 1600 hours of fab work,so at $75.00 per hour that's $120,000 right!! Plus it says over $30,000 in body work. So why sell it for only 43k? Shouldn't they be starting at like 150k? That's what they would charge you if you brought them a car to build right? Doesn't really make sense to me.

Are you saying that a shop should be able to build the car for 43K or that you would rather pay 150K to buy it?

[PT Sportwagon]

A lot of you guys can't complain about parts availability or prices, even the Ford and Mopar guys have it easier. Try building a Buick Sportwagon with a Buick motor. Grant it the suspension is just all A body. try finding replacement sheet metal or inexpensive quality performance parts for a Buick.
Most of is the Barrett/Jackson mentality some joker sees a pristine car like the one sitting in their back yard go for 50-100+ K and they think the rusted POS they have is worth at least half that when in reality it is worth 1/64 that. I have seen people wanting 10K for a mangled wreck.
While Camaros are OK but at any PT event most are first gen F-bodys. And a lot of them are the same. You can only do so much with a F body, and that point is not far off or reached. IMHO, I look at a lot of the 69 Camaros and say, yeah it is cool, has some neat touches or innovations but it is just a 69 Camaro to me. Almost cookie cutter cars, Forgeline wheels, LS swap, HP suspension, Flowmaster exhaust, Etc. I appreciate a well built car just like everyone else.

Tim

[BMR Sales]

Just saying in the for-sale ad it says 1600 hours of fab work,so at $75.00 per hour that's $120,000 right!! Plus it says over $30,000 in body work. So why sell it for only 43k? Shouldn't they be starting at like 150k? That's what they would charge you if you brought them a car to build right? Doesn't really make sense to me.

Because you can't sell a Project Car like a Finished Car. Richard Rollins 101

[grr456]

This is a can of worms if I ever saw one...

Go here.....https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/126475-1964-Chevrolet-SS-Chevelle-True-138-code-%96-Frame-Off

Here is a rough estimate of what I have in the car...
22K for the car - Running and driving
1.5K to have it transported here from Calif
14K to have it stripped and painted – Absolutely rust free car
13K for the chassis and transportation here - Biggest piece of crap ever - Fix everything to make it fit.
4K for the brand new 383 Engine from Jegs
2.5K for the brand new transmission from Rich (Det Gearbox)
1K for the custom fuel tank
2.5K for the brakes and rotors
22.5K for the 9" aluminum center section, Tru Trac and 3.77 polished gear
3.8K for wheels and shipping
1K for tires
.6K for AMK Bolts
.7K for Ididit column, "U" joints and shaft
3.2K for headers, mufflers, exhaust system and powder coating.
1K for interior parts - Carpeting, converting gages and clock refurbishment
2.5K for additional outside labor
.4K for Driveshaft

74K+ off the top of my head. Plus a lot of other misc things like powdercoating, fuel lines, belts, pulleys, transport to and from the body shop and header guy and I am sure you know what I am talking about...Everything is brand new..Plus, lots and lots of hours, mostly done by me, which most can never charge for, of course.

Just my .02....grr