Has anyone built or run 363 or 396 SBC...

[LowBuckX]

Im just looking for opinions on 363 and 396 small blocks from people who have run/built them.

Please Im not looking for answers that in anyway resemble "No replacment for displacement" Im in no way new to this just new to these combos..
363 = 4.030 bore 3.562 stroke
396 = 4.030 bore 3.875 stroke

Thanks

[SStrokerAce]

I've built both....

Well a 365 4.075" x 3.50" and a 396 4.03" x 3.875"

What you want to know?

Bret

[LowBuckX]

looking for the street manners of either.

I dont want something that is Overly agressive down low Or lazy on the top end.

Im looking for more of Inherant issues regarding the differant strokes than the issues that can be altered with cam and compression changes.

Which would be less detonation prone given static compression and cam choice was the same.

Stuff like that.....

[jannes_z-28]

When I was dragracing 25 years ago we had 360 & 370 BBC, short strokers with 4.281 bore. Revved like crazy :naughty:

Just my 2 cents


Jan

[Lowend]

I did a couple of 396 small blocks.... brutish motors, they make torque everywhere...
Due to piston speed I really wouldn't take it over 7K RPM on a regular basis, but they make so much power down low you really don't need to.
One of them is making in the area of 650HP @ 5900RPM right now.
My tips, use a head with a 200cc runner and a Super Victor intake

[SStrokerAce]

looking for the street manners of either.

I dont want something that is Overly agressive down low Or lazy on the top end.

Im looking for more of Inherant issues regarding the differant strokes than the issues that can be altered with cam and compression changes.

Which would be less detonation prone given static compression and cam choice was the same.

Stuff like that.....

Both of them are pretty tame motors really. When I say street motors thats what they are.

I have a 396 going on the dyno now, 15"+ of idle vacuum, mid to high 500's in TQ and 600hp SAE, but pump gas friendly at 11.8:1. Motor is for a 100% street car, 3.23 gears, 2800 stall.

The 365 has been around a while, the newer valvetrain will lower the idle vacuum to around 12-13", 535ft lbs of TQ and 570hp STD on the very small cam before (had about 16-17" of vacuum), new cam should be around the same TQ but 600+ hp. This is with a 11.7:1 CR and has been BEAT on with 92 Octane gas. This one is a shop motor for my 64 GTO, I change things on it now and then without going thru the major details. Probably a set of 4.10's and a T-56 or TKO behind it.

The head volume on both of these motors is 212-215cc on a standard port 23° head. The flow charts are pretty close 290-300cfm heads, with a healthy midlift curve. Both run a Super Vic intake, one with EFI and the other with a Holley HP carb but they will both be EFI soon. The difference in the two motors is the HP peak, the 396 is 6200-6300 and the 365 is in the 6600-6800rpm range.

Yep, I did say 11.7-11.8:1 on these things. I do a lot of high compression street stuff without issue. Helps the TQ curve be nice and broad and increases the idle vacuum.

If ya wanna know some more about them just ask. FWIW both of them aren't cheap motors to build.

Bret

[LowBuckX]

Ive been price shopping and Im sure I could do the short block for about $2500 And about another $3000 FOR the rest.

I have a local shop doing billet caps soon or I was thinking of putting a girdle on my 2 bolt block to save money.

Have you tryed a main girdle on a SBC yet? Would you trust a girdled 2 bolt to 500 HP @ 6800 RPM ? Or just go billet caps. (4 bolt not splayed)

[SStrokerAce]

I actually just looked at girdles for a LT1 355 in the shop.... I finally said screw it, it's going to be a billet 4 bolt. We are talking a 7000rpm, high 500 HP motor with a bobweight under 1600g's but it's going to do track days for most of it's life so I don't see another way to go.

I've done 500hp studded 2 bolt setups, internally balanced for street cars and they are fine, but it's on the edge. A street motor lives a different life from a 315 Hoosier DOT Radial, 3500lbs track day monster.

What's your setup your planning on? I do some odd things to get the most bang for the buck but bottom ends are all based on physics so as long as you follow some rules you can do a nice inexpensive one for cheap IF you can build a motor well yourself.

Bret

[LowBuckX]

So far im looking into a Performance Products 4130 (import) Crank. Which is $499
And Eagle H beams with ARP 2000 bolts and Howards Pistons.(made by ROSS)

This most likely will be a 363.
Im also looking at Edelbrock 200cc E-tec heads and a Super victor or Air gap.(vortec)
But I ve also had Victor JR heads on my mind with a Hydraulic roller cam of 236*- 240* @.050.

And my Modded Q-jet.

So you think a studded 2 bolt with girdle will be OK??

[SStrokerAce]

What are you going to do with the motor? Street drive it or are you going to put a beating on it?

Which Eagle rods?

Why the Edelbrock heads?

Bret

[LowBuckX]

I will run it hard but not a lot. It will see some drag abuse but the freeway will be the hardest on it. Im at 3500RPM cruising @ 65MPH. I would be putting a converter to match with this motor.

I was considering the Edelbrock heads because I live near summit And they would be accessible.Brodix or dart could be an alternative If I could get it all at Summit I would but they dont offer some of the things I want.

What head would you suggest? I was thinking the Vortec design of the E-tec would help to achieve my goal with 89 octane gas..


This will be Balanced and machined at a local but trusted shop. All building and measuring would be done by me..

[SStrokerAce]

Well I'm not a fan of ANY spring package on a aftermarket head. Especially for a Hyd Roller setup, so I get them with just valves.

I also get a lot of heads ported as well, I really can't bolt on a set of heads as cast and most CNC ports I'm not impressed by.

As for heads depends on your budget really. You could get a set of Vortec truck heads out of a yard, have some bigger valves and good parts on them and ported by any number of good porters and have a hell of a setup for cheap. Only bad thing is the lack of Aluminum.

For a cheap Al casting Dart does a hell of a head, especially when the Platinum stuff comes out, then have them ported. TFS stuff is good as well, the 396 I mentioned has a set of hand ported ones that are pretty amazing that flow 300cfm here.

If you need some good sources for that let me know.

As for the bottom end.... sounds like you have a Eagle H beam? A cast steel crank over a 4140 crank would probably do well, even the import ones. As for pistons the Howards are not bad, I'm a big fan of Mahle Pro Packs in something like this.

FWIW If things were done right I would expect a good ported Vortec head on a 355 with a Super Vic could make 500hp on 10.5:1 and still be street gas happy. Just gotta do it correctly.

Bret

[SStrokerAce]

Low Buck,

I looked at your site....

If you still have the TFS castings, a inexpensive 383 with those a single plane and some work to get more carb on there might not be a bad way to go. With the right cam and some head porting 500hp should be easy and drivable.

Bret

[LowBuckX]

The head I have are the TFS twisted Wedge heads. They are very limited in the lift and duration that can be used with out the use of very exspensive pistons. On a 383 with flat tops TFS only recommends 244* and .512 lift.


Your not one of those Q-Jet haters are you :angel:

[LowBuckX]

Or do you think Id be Smarter to do this.

A Buddy of mine has a 5.7 rod 406 with roller valvetrane TFS 23* heads.

The crank is cast steel and the rods are recon. oem 5.7 with hypereutectic pistons. The Motor is proven with 10K miles. He is asking $2000 for the car that it is in.

Would that be a better choice? Then later on down the line I could build somthing off that.

[SStrokerAce]

The head I have are the TFS twisted Wedge heads. They are very limited in the lift and duration that can be used with out the use of very exspensive pistons. On a 383 with flat tops TFS only recommends 244* and .512 lift.


Your not one of those Q-Jet haters are you :angel:

Yeah I remember these things.... actually you can work around those duration specs with certain intake opening events and exhaust closing events. Lift has nothing to do with it.


Or do you think Id be Smarter to do this.

A Buddy of mine has a 5.7 rod 406 with roller valvetrane TFS 23* heads.

The crank is cast steel and the rods are recon. oem 5.7 with hypereutectic pistons. The Motor is proven with 10K miles. He is asking $2000 for the car that it is in.

Would that be a better choice? Then later on down the line I could build somthing off that.

For the $2K to get the whole car, makes me wonder why?

Anyways, I would imagine you could part the car out and get the $2K back and end up with a free 406.

The TFS heads are decent for a stroker, and after porting are going to work great.

The 406 sounds like it's worth the crank and block to me, if it's a 4 bolt block. All depends on the power you want to run what else you put in there.

As for the Q-jet's, if you can tune it they are not that bad.

Bret

[LowBuckX]

Short story Long the 2k car was mine Minus the 406. When my buddy got out of Jail I gave it to him for $100 and some valve springs. As a favor.
Now the cars frame rotted out behind the rear tires. And the tranny is blown but the factory posi rear is good. It a 79 Malibu so I could part some of it out.

As for the Q-jet.. I can build and tune very well.

Im thinking very strongly of getting the 406 put new rods and lightweight pistons (forged) rebalnce it and see from there.. Maybe some mild porting of the TFS 23* heads,

[WS6]

Bret can an 396 LT1 be built to be very streetable yet produce nearly 500hp at the crank with torque numbers similar or higher? this would be using Lt1 or Lt4 castings not a SBC2 conversion and a sheet metal intake.

i know this is somewhat off topic. i was just curious since the numbers sound very promising but we are talking possibly better heads availible to you and Low Buck since your dealing with a SBC1.

i was and am still thinking of running a 396 LT1 in a car as a street car and weekend racer. autox and track events more so than drag racing. other than having the clearence a little more of the block, i dont see any reason not to run a 396 over a 383 since the costs will be so very close. i want a very broad torque curve that pulls whenever the gas is applied. 6500 rpm redline would be nice also.

thanks

[yody]

406 all the way! Just freshen up the bottom end, and have the heads ported, and blueprint everything. 406 is gonna beat either one of those mentioned engine combos hands down in every way.

[Camaro_Dan]

I have a 363cui motor in my camaro. well I am rebuilding it now. 3,56" stroke. I don't see any problems, exept I use 5,7" rods and I do have som wear on the piston skirts and in the cylinderwalls.

[SStrokerAce]

Bret can an 396 LT1 be built to be very streetable yet produce nearly 500hp at the crank with torque numbers similar or higher? this would be using Lt1 or Lt4 castings not a SBC2 conversion and a sheet metal intake.

i know this is somewhat off topic. i was just curious since the numbers sound very promising but we are talking possibly better heads availible to you and Low Buck since your dealing with a SBC1.

i was and am still thinking of running a 396 LT1 in a car as a street car and weekend racer. autox and track events more so than drag racing. other than having the clearence a little more of the block, i dont see any reason not to run a 396 over a 383 since the costs will be so very close. i want a very broad torque curve that pulls whenever the gas is applied. 6500 rpm redline would be nice also.

thanks

Any time on a LT motor the problem with more cubes is more head is needed.

A stock casting LT1 head can move 285cfm but you can't get more than a 2.055 valve in the thing, and that causes issues with high RPM output due to the lack of valve curtain area in a stroked LT motor. Very few people realize this, but when the guys with stroked LT1's wonder why they are getting beat by 355's the lack of curtain area and some other issues like the intake manifold are what add up to be a issue.

A 396 can be very streetable and make even more than 500hp at the crank, just as long as it's done right.

FWIW on the 383 vs. 396, when I had a customer come to me about a drag motor I suggested the 383 over the 396, due to a number of things. The 396 will put comprimises on the cam which I don't think are worth the cubes, the heavier clearancing, the higher piston speeds, the need for more cylinder head along with the added costs (which there definately are) just don't add up to be cost effective ways to go faster.

You can do a lot to get around these issues but it's still a comprimise and is usually not cheap.

IMHO most times guys can get where they want to go with a 355 in a LT motor and it usually fits in their budget.

Bret

[SStrokerAce]

Im thinking very strongly of getting the 406 put new rods and lightweight pistons (forged) rebalnce it and see from there.. Maybe some mild porting of the TFS 23* heads,

I agree... the head porting and internally balancing the 406 (if you can afford it) are both good ideas.

Bret

[WS6]

thanks Bret. i was worried about the heads since the options are very limited unless converting to a gen 1 SBC head, but im not expert so i thought id ask. thanks

[SStrokerAce]

The AFR heads have big enough valve seats to take large valves (2.125") for the large cube motors.

I actually have a set in the shop that was done for a 396 that now the customer had his motor stolen and now he can't use them. He still owns them but I'm pretty sure they are for sale now with a matching single plane.

Bret