Advice Requested on P.T. Car Value - Looking to be Part of the Club!

[AZ_XJ]

Hello - New user here. Was a 'car guy' for many years, but had to give it up the last 15yrs due to a chronic lack of money (USMC, college, wife, kids, etc - you know the deal!). That said, I'm looking to get back in, and a P.T car is what I'm after. Looking to get a daily driver - not a trailer/show queen.

So, it seems like I may have a good candidate here locally, and wanted to get y'all's read on it and an idea of it's approximate value.

It is a 1970 Camaro RS. Seller claims he took it in on a trade for another vehicle he had. So, his knowledge on it is limited... But, I did take a look and took it for spin, and this is what I've gathered.

The good:

Has a fuel-injected LS-1. Starts and runs great. Sounds good. Seems stock. Ceramic coated exhaust manifolds (look like headers, all tube).

700R4 tranny.

Looks to be new accessories - AC Comp, Alternator, Battery, Master Cyl, Mini Brake Booster, Radiator, AC Condenser, PS Pump, etc.

All new exhaust w/Flowmasters. Looks like a kit. Installed well.

New aftermarket harness & ECU for the LS1. Wiring looks clean.

Has new Painless Wiring throughout. Everything seems to work well.

Paint/body appears flawless and well done. Red with black SS stripes.

Seats, headliner, carpet, pkg tray, etc all newly reupholstered with stock materials - likely a kit. Seems well done.

17 or 18" Torque-thrusts with brand new tires. Look perfect on the car.

Car is very clean throughout.


The Bad:

No idea where the LS-1 came from, mileage (if any), or even it's displacement. I'm sure there is some indication on the motor itself, but I've not gotten there yet. Seller hasn't a clue. Same for the 700R4...

Tranny is sluggish. Though, it shifts nice and firm, just doesn't seem to know where to shift, lol. Likely just needs adjusted properly.

Front end is lowered looks like about 2". The rear needs to come down about the same amount. However, there just isn't room to fit the currently installed tires/wheels to get it where it needs to be. So, it's raked out a bit. So, I'd need to get new wheels with appropriate backspacing if I want the stance right.

Suspension is pretty squishy. Looks all stock. So, I'd definitely want to do some suspension work.

Brakes/front end makes a bunch of strange noise (grinding, etc) when driving. All looked kosher, but I'd have to get it on stands to figure out what the deal is. Not a big deal, but still...

Overall assembly/fitment leaves much to be desired. Body seams, door alignment, window alignments, bezels, trim, etc. Just seems like dude threw it together in a hurry. Now, most of this can likely be easily solved, but not always - some uncertainty there...

Interior hard parts are pretty rough (console, door panels, etc). Again, easy to replace, but can be pricey.

No stereo. Will need that for a driver. Easy to do, and not too expensive, but just another thing to add to the list.

AC incomplete. Will require a Vintage Air (or equivalent) Evaporator Kit (~$850). It's a must here in Phx!

And, my one big concern is that I found some large globs of bondo on the backside of the lower rear quarter panels. The painted side looks prefect, so they did it well, but still... This always became a problem with all my previous cars with bondo'd quarters (rust always seemed to find a way in there, ruining the whole thing).

All-in-all, it's a really good looking and sounding car with a lot of the big parts taken care of. But, lots of smaller issues to contend with. It's basically someone else's unfinished project... And, it is a project that I certainly can finish, btw.

So, the guy is asking $27k. This seems quite steep to me, but I've been out of this game for so long (and things have gotten MUCH more expensive) that I'm in no position to make an educated estimate. I think dude is pretty flexible on price, as he seems to be having a hard time unloading it. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say $15-17k is reasonable? Way I see it it's gonna take a good $5k just to get it in solid driver shape.

I know there are some red flags here (lot's of unknowns, bondo globs, etc), but I'm pretty good at sussing out the garbage, and I think this is a solid project...

What do you all think? How much do y'all think something like this is worth (ballpark of course)?

Sorry if this is not an appropriate place to post such a question. If there is a better place, please let me know.

Any help is appreciated!

[ParsonsWV]

I believe I found the car you are referring to. It does look good from pictures. Price seems a little high based on how much bondo filler you said there is on the backside. In the pictures the dash doesn't look terrible but there isn't a close up of it. For 27k you can find a stock one in better shape. with already having to redo the suspension and AC. I would be more inclined to find a stock one and use the money you are going to spend either way and start from stock instead of undoing unknown work. That is just me though. If you get it for the 15-17k range that makes it a lot different.

[MonzaRacer]

Bondo says its NOT worth $27k. Could have newest LS crate engine in and dont think a hulk with 27 gallons of bondo and slick paint make a good car for $27K. I could hook you up with my buddy selling a 70 BBC Nova fresh from bodyshop AND it doesnt have gallons of bondo. Most of his cars are up for sale on racingjunk.com, just search for cars from Loogootee IN. or zip code 47553
https://www.racingjunk.com/Chevy/182941710/1970-Chevrolet-Nova.html?action=doSearch&searchString=&searchBody=on&country=&categoryId1=0&categoryId2=&categoryId3=&categoryOptions=N%3B&phrase=all&exclude=&is_advance=true&resultsPP=20&onResults=true&categoryId=&po=&zipcodeRange=50&zipcode=47553&priceMin=&priceMax=&sortBy=score&userType=&offset=17&from=search
https://www.racingjunk.com/Chevy/182941709/1967-Chevrolet-Chevelle.html?action=doSearch&searchString=&searchBody=on&country=&categoryId1=0&categoryId2=&categoryId3=&categoryOptions=N%3B&phrase=all&exclude=&is_advance=true&resultsPP=20&onResults=true&categoryId=&po=&zipcodeRange=50&zipcode=47553&priceMin=&priceMax=&sortBy=score&userType=&offset=16&from=search
his name on there michaelquick. He is picky on cars and I feel fair. Got my 66 Caprice from him and his brother.

[CSG]

Get a gauge and check the depth of the filler before proceding.

[AZ_XJ]

I believe I found the car you are referring to. It does look good from pictures. Price seems a little high based on how much bondo filler you said there is on the backside. In the pictures the dash doesn't look terrible but there isn't a close up of it. For 27k you can find a stock one in better shape. with already having to redo the suspension and AC. I would be more inclined to find a stock one and use the money you are going to spend either way and start from stock instead of undoing unknown work. That is just me though. If you get it for the 15-17k range that makes it a lot different.

Well, I guess that is the question... Is 15-17k a semi reasonable number? For such a car? I just don't know what cars like this go for nowadays.

[AZ_XJ]

As for the bondo, I'm starting to doubt it was where I thought it was.

I did bring my handy dandy refrigerator magnet - the way I always check for bondo on painted body panels. If it sticks, steel. If it doesn't, or is noticeably less attracted, then we've got mud! That said, those lower rear quarters passed the test, as did all the other typical rust spots. It was when I was feeling around the back side (between the gas tank & quarter panel) that I found the big ol mounds of something. So, now I'm thinking it may have been just the inner panel, assuming of course a 2nd gen camaro has an inner quarter panel, like chevelles & nova's have (those are what I'm more familiar with).

[1989GTA]

My two cents is that $27K is way to high. You are the one there looking at the car so you have an advantage over us. I would say your 15-17 K number is more reasonable and gives you some negotiating room.

[oleyeller]

I looked at the ad, and there is a fairly extensive listing of new hardware..... so, add up the "new cost" of the parts, estimate the labor cost for a smoothed firewall and other things that have been done, i.e.. paint, interior, etc.... Get an estimate of what someone spent to get it to that point. Nobody gets out of these cars what they put into them....Look to see what other cars have sold for taking into account the condition, add it all up, compare it to your budget...... Then look to see what else is out there that floats your boat. Sounds like the guy has no emotional ties to it, since he took it on a trade, so he just wants some money.... these things are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.... if it works for you, make him an offer and wait to see how long he is willing to sit on it. It's a hotrod and you will find stuff you want to change or fix or finish..... so they are never done, and .........it' only money. Just my thought on the subject.

[SSLOW6.0]

The downside of a 700-R4 is that if the cable isn't adjusted right, you can kill them pretty quickly. I run a 200-4r which uses a TV cable similarly. I cant say its the perfect transmission behind an LS1. Not to mention, even the improved 4L60e's which replaced the 700-R4 seems to die a quick death behind bone stock LS motors. Keep in mind any modern trans is going to require a new controller as the Painless setup is for manuals or old tranmissions.

Id also ask for details on the fuel system. some people run inline pumps that will leave you stranded because they aren't setup properly.

27K with a hint of bondo would make me run for the hills.

I did an LS swap for $3500, and my full QA1 suspension wheels and tires cost me about 6000. You can build one hell of a car for 27K.

[AZ_XJ]

Yeah, after more research, and your responses, I agree. I'll float the guy an offer for $15k and see what happens...

As one respondent said, I may be better off finding a nicely restored stocker, and just dropping in an LS1 myself. I'll have to look into that as an option. I've done plenty of motor swaps, so I'd just need to get an idea of cost for such a swap ($3500 sounds good to me, lol).

Thanks guys. I'll let you know what happens, lol.

[AZ_XJ]

Well, turned his nose up on that one, haha. Not even a counter. Oh well, I'll keep looking. Thanks for all of your input!

Now, on to look into an LS1 swap into a 2nd gen camaro...

[MCB Matt]

I would budget a little more for an LS swap. This of course, depends on how you do it and what quality of parts you want or are willing to use.

Just a quick list of things you will need:

LS motor - Price range is HUGE and LS1's are old now, 21 years old!

Trans - 4L60E or better. The 6 speed auto 6l80E is a common one now.

Motor mounts

Trans Crossmember

Engine Wiring Harness

Engine AND Trans computer - These are separate.

Radiator

Front drive system unless you use the stock setup, which leaves a little to be desired in fitment, compatibility in a classic and LOOKS!

Drive Shaft - Have one made locally, it's usually the best way to go for $ and fitment if you have issues.

Gauges - Most commonly, we see the Dakota VHX or HDX being used along with their OBDII interface (BIM-01-2)

Hoses/lines for P/S and AC.

One thing leads to another factor.. This ALWAYS comes up and can be significant $.

The $3500 LS swap is a junk yeard / CL motor, probably an LS1 or Truck 5.3 and remember, they are OLD and may have a few hundred K on them.
Modify your own harness (Lots of time and knowledge needed and still need a flashed computer to delete VATS and setup the speedo). Then you can buy a cheapie china radiator that will probably fail, they are about $200-300. You will need mounts. You can make the trans crossmember. and so on...

Then, most will add Vintage Air, brakes, suspension and more. It adds up FAST, we sell it all everyday, we know.

Good luck with search, I know of a few 2nd gen LS swapped Pro-Touring cars for sale but they are closer to 50K. When you figure a Good-Great paint job is $15K - 25K, there is half of your cost and typically paint jail will be 1-3 years.

MCB

[Ben@SpeedTech]

My .02- I've always built "street fighters" because the budget made me choose between performing well and looking pretty. Well, performance has always won. With that said, it is possible to build your own decent performing car for what you have in your wallet and probably have enough left over to do a little door ding repair and shoot it with epoxy primer so you can start driving it and/or have some fun at the autoX. What makes the value of a serous pro touring car shoot through the roof is building a driveable show car. The big question to ask yourself is what do you want to own? Pretty? Performer? or Both? To have both it might be fair to say you'll be $40K plus if you do almost all the work yourself, more than likely more than that depending on your tastes. My car was way cheaper initially but I doubt I have more that $15K into the whole car. It daily drives well, handles well, stops well, and is a total blast to throw around an autocross, ...but for now it's best viewed at 10 + feet, and that isn't for everyone, I understand that.

Personally I get annoyed at people playing on the big wheels that were put on the car and calling it a Pro Touring car to raise the "perceived" value. If it were the same car with that stock suspension and an engine swap with 215-60-15s up front and 255-60-15s out back on $85 15x8 Torque thrusts could the seller ask for much more than half of what he currently is? Although I may be being a little sarcastic, for whatever reason there seems to be a decent gap in car value between a pro touring car and a traditional street machine. It's like calling that rusty POJ in the backyard weeds a rat rod when you post it for sale and all of a sudden it's worth $5000 more. From what you've describe that isn't a pro touring car, it's a stock car with a repaint, engine swap and big wheels. I would suggest in your case, since you'd likely have found yourself replacing much of what's already there, you're ahead of the game without that car.

Did a super quick search on Craig's list in the Las Vegas area, a couple hours from us. Less $ and looks like a decent pro touring builder, just needs suspension, the right wheels and tires and a helmet! https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/d/1981-chevrolet-camaro-28/6333271794.html

Good luck!

[SSLOW6.0]

I would budget a little more for an LS swap. This of course, depends on how you do it and what quality of parts you want or are willing to use.

Just a quick list of things you will need:

LS motor - Price range is HUGE and LS1's are old now, 21 years old!

Trans - 4L60E or better. The 6 speed auto 6l80E is a common one now.

Motor mounts

Trans Crossmember

Engine Wiring Harness

Engine AND Trans computer - These are separate.

Radiator

Front drive system unless you use the stock setup, which leaves a little to be desired in fitment, compatibility in a classic and LOOKS!

Drive Shaft - Have one made locally, it's usually the best way to go for $ and fitment if you have issues.

Gauges - Most commonly, we see the Dakota VHX or HDX being used along with their OBDII interface (BIM-01-2)

Hoses/lines for P/S and AC.

One thing leads to another factor.. This ALWAYS comes up and can be significant $.

The $3500 LS swap is a junk yeard / CL motor, probably an LS1 or Truck 5.3 and remember, they are OLD and may have a few hundred K on them.
Modify your own harness (Lots of time and knowledge needed and still need a flashed computer to delete VATS and setup the speedo). Then you can buy a cheapie china radiator that will probably fail, they are about $200-300. You will need mounts. You can make the trans crossmember. and so on...

Then, most will add Vintage Air, brakes, suspension and more. It adds up FAST, we sell it all everyday, we know.

Good luck with search, I know of a few 2nd gen LS swapped Pro-Touring cars for sale but they are closer to 50K. When you figure a Good-Great paint job is $15K - 25K, there is half of your cost and typically paint jail will be 1-3 years.

MCB

Mine is an 04 LQ4 6.0L with 120k on the clock, I swapped out the factory cam for an LS3 cam and new valve springs. Cylinder walls has still have crosshatch, perfect leakdown and compression numbers. I paid $700. These things aren't old school 350's they can do 200k+ and look like new on the inside. Not like you're going to find "new" or "low mileage" LS1's anymore (Personally I'd rather have an iron block 6.0L than a 5.7 because of the compatibility with L92 heads). 5.3's can still make very respectable power numbers, and are $185 at my local U-pull (probably an S10 5.3l turbo drag truck in my future). The Gen IV truck manifold is also the best Cathedral port factory intake (if it fits under your hood)

As for the transmission, you can use any old transmission you want. TH400 or a 200-4r would be my choice for the sake of simplicity if you're talking an auto. You can easily adapt an old 4 speed manual to these motors too, but 5 and six speed options that will handle the power get expensive quickly. Also don't waste your money on a 4L60e. The only 4 spd electronically controlled trans worth investing in a 4l80E. For control you can link another Microsquirt with can bus to control it. You don't need any fancy radiator, just use the truck hoses. the mounts for my application were $130, the headers were $200 from china, I made my own harness with Microsquirt for 369, the tuning software is free. The fuel system can be expensive depending on how you want to do it. luckily they made EFI G-bodies so i could get a repop EFI tank and sender cheap that would work with a good Aeromotive fuel pump.

I incorporated all of the factory gauges into my setup. (use a 98 camaro 3 pin temp sensor and get a 90 degree elbow from the oil sender) I actually could have done my swap a bit cheaper, but there were a few things that I wanted to do out of the gate (GEN IV truck intake, 90MM TB, LS3 Cam, Long Tube Headers, 340LPH fuel pump) Luckily in the G-body, all of the factory truck accessories clear the hood and the PS pump uses a factory G-body hose.

The point being, if you can get a decent deal on an LS motor (especially a 4.0 in bore 6.0l), its the most cost effective way to go. (a good set of SBC or BBC heads are more expensive than the base motor to swap) that is unless the car you buy already has a healthy 400+ hp engine in it.

The only thing I regret with my swap is that I left power on the table not going to an aftermarket cam, but I got the LS3 cam and valve springs for $100, and these engines are lego so you can swap one in the car very easy...

[AZ_XJ]

Great info!

Actually, I'm more interested in building a daily driver. So, pretty? Yes. But, show-y, no. It's gonna get dinged up in the parking lot, rock chips all over the front, etc. I drive 100mi a day round trip to work & back 4 days a week, btw. I would consider a car with good to great paint & body, and maybe have it wrapped, just to protect the paint. Something like that.

As for performance, something like 350-400hp will be just right. Not gonna be racing anybody... It's just for fun, my own enjoyment. And, yes a 700R4 or T56 would be on my list. Prolly the 700 to start. Can always change/upgrade things down the road.

A very clean, stock interior is perfectly fine with me. Can maybe upgrade the front seats later, but I like low back buckets...

Same for engine compartment. Honestly, I could care less what it looks like in there as long as it's clean, well organized, and facilitates maintenance.

Suspension, I'd def want to tighten things up. Sway bars, shocks, springs, new bushings, subframe connectors, and a set of 17 or 18" wheels (torque thrusts work). I think that'd be about it for my purposes.

I'd definitely need AC & heat. My toddlers will want to ride in it any chance they can get! So, yes, that'd also mean car seats in the back, lol.

So, yeah, not lookin to build a track monster or show car. I literally just want a bad ass daily driver, that I can have fun with, upgrade over time, and not lose value on like any other type of commuter car (tired of losing $15-20k every 4 or 5 years on BMW's, Mercedes, etc).

That said, I do think just finding a nicely restored stocker, swapping in a 5.4L LS1 (as mentioned) and 700R4, spending $2-3k on suspension & wheels, a good stereo, and I'll be off to the races!

[USAZR1]

Did a super quick search on Craig's list in the Las Vegas area, a couple hours from us. Less $ and looks like a decent pro touring builder, just needs suspension, the right wheels and tires and a helmet! https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/d/1981-chevrolet-camaro-28/6333271794.html


That would make a great start for what the OP is looking for. Nice Third Gen Camaros don't grow on trees,either.

[AZ_XJ]

That would make a great start for what the OP is looking for. Nice Third Gen Camaros don't grow on trees,either.

I like the 3rd gen camaros, but def prefer the 2nd gen cars.. I see plenty of those locally on CL. I'd rather have a 64-66 mustang fastback, but just too damn expensive.

I'll find something, take my time & get the right one, as I'm in no hurry at all