What will we see in January? [Archive]

Damn True

11-21-2005, 01:50 PM

With the spy photos of the new Challenger popping up today and the fact that we now know SOMETHING f-bodyish is going to be shown in January I think the time is right for us to start talking out of our keisters.
What do you think the new F-body will be like?

Offer your e-speculation on the new car.
Include:
Possible model variations (base, berlinetta, RS, SS, Z-28 something else?)
Engine options (Ecotec, vortec, Northstar, LS1-2-6-7 something else?)
Trans options
Suspension configuration
Retro/modern ratio

Ralph LoGrasso

11-21-2005, 01:55 PM

With the new Shelby at 450-500hp, and the new Challenger at 425hp, there needs to be an SS available with atleast 450 or even better 500hp. Supercharged LS2 would be ideal, as people would only be a pulley swap away from 600hp.

I've also heard the Z/28 will be the new top performer, which makes absolutely no sense, especially if they're trying to play on the car's heritage. Not sure how much truth there is to that satement, though. Give the Z the handling package, and a 400hp LS2.

Suspension should definitely NOT be IRS.
Trans - 6 speed manual / 6 speed auto (6L80E)

Have the ability to add the RS appearance package to either a Z/28 or SS.

Standard V6, with a nice blend of style, comfort and power to bring in the mass sales needed to keep the car alive.

I'm extremely objective when it comes to styling. Just make it look good, and put the Camaro back on top of the performance tier, as it once was, back in '02.

Steve Chryssos

11-21-2005, 03:12 PM

The new Mustangs are successful BECAUSE there are no direct competitors. So if the Challenger comes out first, then the F-body's business model is even more risky. Which means there is yet another reason why a new F-body will not happen.

TonyL

11-21-2005, 03:35 PM

Steve Chryssos

11-21-2005, 03:53 PM

I'm trying to be pessimistic. That way if I'm right, I won't be dissapointed. And if I'm wrong, I'll be that much happier.

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 04:06 PM

I'll let you all know when I'm in Detroit....I've been invited to the special unveiling of the new "RWD Chevrolet Sports coupe".... :D

I know quite a bit more about the car and it's option line-up, but will only suffice to say that Ralph is going to be slightly disappointed....

The car WILL have IRS (it is 2005 after-all...not all of us are drag racers)...and rumor has it that the Z/28 will return to it's rightful place as a special edition, high performance model...just like it started life as...(it IS it's Heritage!) ala the Z06. The engine will definately hold it's own amongst the competition ;)

The SS will continue to be the option leader in all areas...but don't count on it being the fastest model.

Good chance we'll see the LT designation again...

The car will be priced competatively with the Mustang...as it should be.

The car will be more "Heritage" inspired than all out retro (ala the Challenger), but I'm told it will be inspired by the 1969, (afterall, Ed Welburn has a yellow 1969 in his garage).

There's a good chance that I'll be able to post some pictures while I'm up there..so say tuned! :D

Damn True

11-21-2005, 04:25 PM

Here's what I'd like to think the "new breed" at GM will do if they get away with what they claim to be their new direction for the brand.

Base model:
Ecotec 4-banger or GM 3800 v-6
5sp auto
16" wheels that look good
F - dbl wishbone - coil & standard shocks
R - live axle leaf & standard shock

RS:
Same as above but an appearance package that adds 17" rims, faux dual exhaust
leather interior accents, power accesories and a goofy wing.

SS
LS2
T-56
18" rims w/ equal size tires
Leather interior
f dbl wishbone with coilover
r live axle coilover 3-link with phb

COPO/Z-28 (think Cobra-R)
LS7
t-56
18" rims wider in the rear.
glass hood, aluminum fenders & roof, cloth interior radio delete, AC delete
f dbl wishbone with coilover
r live axle coilover 3-link with phb

I think it will be about 20-30% retro. Meaning it will have styling cues reminscant of 1st gen Camaro's, but will not be as much of a copy as the Mustang and Challenger.

Kenova

11-21-2005, 04:38 PM

I think the Camaro should be styled after the first gens, '69s mostly. The Firebird should be styled after the early '70s.

More variety in the drive trains. Big horsepower for the Z28 and Trans Am, big torque for the SS and Formula. The product line really needs an intermediate V8, something between the big engines and the six cylinder. A 5.3 with DOD would be perfect. A choice between auto and manual trannies with all engines.

The base F-bodies should have solid rear axles for simplicity and to keep them affordable. IRS could be standard equipment on the Z28 and Trans Am, and optional on more luxury oriented models (Camaro LT and Firebird Esprit ?) For the SS and Formula, solid axles as standard equipment with an IRS option.

Give them very different personalities. The more body panels and glass they share, the more they will look alike.

To make more business sense, the platform should be expanded. There is no reason that the chassis can't be stretched six or eight inches to create two and four door Regals (hint - GRAND NATIONAL ) or even an entry level Caddy.

But hey, what do I know :dunno:
Ken

Mean 69

11-21-2005, 04:55 PM

I must say, that even though the cars today don't hold the same character as the real ones, the new Mustang and Challenger (especially the latter) are some really nice looking cars. If the Camaro can follow suit in terms of style, it too will be a winner, but I fear not as much so as the other two. One, the Mustang has a stronghold, big time. Two, the Dodge touts the HEMI, and for folks that don't know any better, the HEMI MUST be the best thing (which, by the way, it is one damn fine piece, look for many more of them to hit early muscle cars very, very soon). Plus, if the car looks like the spy shot, I'm selling the 911 and buying one. The Camaro missed the mark in the late days, I just wonder if GM realizes that this is an opportunity to capitalize on today's market, which is more hungry for muscle than it was three years ago, by a long shot.

It is baffling, by the way. If GM had put a similar amount of effort into a hot Camaro years back, as it had done for the Z06, I think the appeal for the model overall would be a bunch better than it was/is. The new Z06 is the best value hot rod on the market, ever, in my opinion, so someone there knows performance/value, let the guy be creative for other models!!

But, alas, the downside for all of the new "muscle cars," will be quality. I don't mean they aren't great cars, but look at the amazing trim on the real muscle cars, it is so artisitc, metal, and real. Todays stuff is a plastic rendition of something that it will never be. My personal favorite is plastic made to look like aluminum. Yuck.

M

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 05:19 PM

Chevy can not afford to engineer two different rearends...it's time for the Camaro to "grow up" a little....nor can they afford different body panels, etc...besides, the Mustang doesn't have them and it's Ford's cash cow.

There "might" be a mid level V8...

There will NOT be a Firebird "sister car" however...those days are over.

rockdogz

11-21-2005, 05:32 PM

trapin

11-21-2005, 05:40 PM

It is baffling, by the way. If GM had put a similar amount of effort into a hot Camaro years back, as it had done for the Z06, I think the appeal for the model overall would be a bunch better than it was/is.
The time to have started a replacement architecture for the F-Body would have been around '98 or '99. At the time we were pretty heavy into SUV, crossover, and truck programs (so was the rest of the industry) There was only a small number of car programs going back then that really weren't the focus at the time. Some have made it, others didn't. A replacement architecture that would have suited a new F-body was just in it's infancy when the 4th gen model had reached the end of it's lifecycle. A lot has happened since then which unfortunately is proprietary and I can't discuss. Who knew that Ford was creating the new Mustang and that it would do as well as it did? Give kudos to Ford for rolling the dice and leaving the casino with some green backs. Their gamble paid off. Now it's time to answer the call. And Chrysler apparantly agrees.

Matt

11-21-2005, 05:43 PM

Wouldn't the R&D / Production/ Set up cost for a new, say LT, motor be a bad move fiscally?
As for Z/28 care to hint how 'special' it may be? Are we talking special lightweight body panels with a dry sump system, or bigger engine, special gear ratios, small body mods.
Any murmurs on a Club Racer type Z/28 to compete with the mustang cammer?
Any nods to engine sizes of yore? if they do another motor are we looking at a higher wrapping 302?

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 06:09 PM

Wouldn't the R&D / Production/ Set up cost for a new, say LT, motor be a bad move fiscally?

They already have a 5.3L DOD engine...

As for Z/28 care to hint how 'special' it may be? Are we talking special lightweight body panels with a dry sump system, or bigger engine, special gear ratios, small body mods.

No special body panels...no dry sump...The engine is the most interesting part.... ;) The suspension will be perfect for canyon carving...

Any murmurs on a Club Racer type Z/28 to compete with the mustang cammer?

You can bet the Z/28 will give the Mustang a serious run for it's money in ALL aspects of performance...ALL.

Any nods to engine sizes of yore? if they do another motor are we looking at a higher wrapping 302?

Again, the top dog engine choice will be a real surprise....at least to most people ;)

Matt

11-21-2005, 06:23 PM

:) I think I might be pickin up what you're puttin down.

Damn True

11-21-2005, 07:01 PM

Again, the top dog engine choice will be a real surprise....at least to most people ;)

Big Block?
I sincerely hope not, but it would qualify as a "surprise".

JohnnyGMachine

11-21-2005, 07:01 PM

I posted this over at LG. I will be posting a couple more renderings soon. For those who haven't seen it yet here it is along with my thoughts on the exterior design atleast. I'm open for any constructive input.

For this concept, I did a lot of sketch exercises before I got it to this point. While sketching, things like the belt line, cowl height, and wheel base where the things that I kept in mind while working out my design. On the final concept design that you see here – the belt line was raised up a little higher which gave the car a more dramatic look by reducing the greenhouse height. This also allowed for the cowl height to be up higher which in turn lets me angle the hood down more and still maintain enough clearance for the engine. The raised cowl bulge also gives me approximately another 1-1.5” of hood clearance over the engine. Look at the C5 and C6, there’s room for the engine without major issues. The raised belt line also allows me to get the rear CD reduced for less aerodynamic drag. These were the couple things that were integrated into my design that helped me to get the look I wanted.
The front grill – This is my favorite part of the whole car. I always thought that the ’69 Camaro grill was really aggressive lookin’ and very modern at the same time. It’s really clean, so what I did was leaned it back , and gave it an even more modern edge or look so that it could be retro yet fresh at the same time. Although it’s probably not the most aerodynamic solution, it looks great and helps to get ample cool air into the radiator.
Now we can have a whole other debate and wheel sizes and what’s too big or not but as a designer I have to think ahead. And what happens to the wheel sizes on OEM cars every couple years – they get bigger. Also since this is a concept and used to gauge reactions I took a little bit of liberty with the wheel sizes. Think of it this way – look at the C6 ZO6 – 18” and 19” wheels??!!!! Holy Cow they’re huge – and beautiful. Why couldn’t the Camaro come with wheels this size, maybe 18s for the Z/28 but man wouldn’t it be killer to see staggered diameter wheel sizes on let’s say an SS version? Heck yeah!
Anyways, I have just about finished up the rear ¾ view rendering and have a side view worked out. I hope to get these up soon. Scott’s hopefully still gonna help me with a web site soon that will show the rest of my 5th Gen “what if” sketches along with a lot of other examples of my designs and renderings.

Thanks,
John

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 07:04 PM

That's killer John!!

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 07:06 PM

Big Block?
I sincerely hope not, but it would qualify as a "surprise".

No rat motors.....but there's more ways to stuff air in an engine than cubic inches.... :secret:

Damn True

11-21-2005, 07:10 PM

Hmmmuahahahhahahahahahaha!

Centrifugal?
Turbo?
Whipple?

Oh shizzznizzle, a TT LS2 would be siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!

DeepBlue68

11-21-2005, 07:11 PM

Lookin' good!! That sketch is pretty sweet! Definitely not as retro as the Mustang IMO, as someone above said would be likely.

JohnnyGMachine

11-21-2005, 07:13 PM

I personally think GM needs a marketing angle on the Camaro, something like what Ford has done with Shelby and Bullitt Stangs and how Mopar Markets the Hemi. I don't know if this is it or not but Steve Chryssos and I were kickin this idea around. How about a limited edition version like a Yenko Edition or like Steve mentioned a Motion 5th Gen Camaro? I think that'd be killer. Maybe even do a Penske Edition and they get a modern T/A Camaro theme with side exit exhaust, wheels, paint, etc...
C'mon GM, get those marketing gears turnin'!

Just my 2 cents anyways,
John

67Sally

11-21-2005, 07:30 PM

Matt

11-21-2005, 07:43 PM

No rat motors.....but there's more ways to stuff air in an engine than cubic inches.... :secret:
:jawdrop:

Are you just pulling our chain?

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 07:54 PM

:jawdrop:

Are you just pulling our chain?

Nope....remember that blue Z06 that everyone "thought" was the infamous "Blue Devil"? But turned out to be a 6.2L supercharged variant...... :ssst:

Ralph LoGrasso

11-21-2005, 08:15 PM

With HP estimates of 450 and 500 being thrown about, as well as drooling over the LS7, I have to wonder about the Corvette ceiling again. Chevrolet never wanted the Camaro to be within performance striking distance of the Corvette - will it be any different now? As exciting as it is to look forward to January, it sure is hard to listen to all the reports of GM falling on hard times. I really hope this happens - I'm all over selling my daily driver for a modern F body!

Hopefully they'll just under rate the cars like they did the 4th gen F-bodies. Besides the handling, there's not much of a difference in straight line performance between an '02 Corvette and an '02 Camaro. We're talking a couple tenths in the 1/4. (Z06 need not apply).

The car WILL have IRS (it is 2005 after-all...not all of us are drag racers)...

I'm not a drag racer at all, but in my opinion IRS complicates a lot of things (as well as increases cost), and I'd suspect a lot of the potential buyers of these cars will be looking to use them primarily for drag racing. The number of 4th gens that are drag raced to auto-x or road raced has to be atleast 4 to 1, judging by what I've seen on message boards. 3-link solves all :).

Also, some of the stuff being mentioned here like aluminum / light-weight body panels, etc. is already present on the 4th gen, so hopefully this will carry right over the the 5th and there will be no guess work involved. The only painted body panels on a 4th gen that are metal are the quarter panels and rockers. Hood, fenders, doors, sail panel, etc. are all composite. Lets hope Chevy can keep the weight down on the 5th. A supercharged 6.2 (or was it 6.4L?) would be amazing. Or, as I said in my first post, just a regular 'ol SC'd LS2.

Damn True

11-21-2005, 08:34 PM

Follow the path of the Solstice, MAKE IT LIGHT!

IMO the market segment that is buying the rustang is no longer broad enough to support three marques (GM FoMoCo and Daimler/Chrysler). They need to attract people that are currently looking at high performance imports. As far as marketing goes, they'd be well served to work up a Speed Challenge, GT3 or similar version then go out and spank some Bimmers, Porsches, Nissans and of course rustangs. Race it (and WIN) before they release it!
They need to show that the new car is a legit world class performance car, not just a one trick pony musclecar. They need to attract buyers who are looking at Nissan 350s, Infinity G35s, 325i, M3.

Doug Harden

11-21-2005, 08:35 PM

....I'm not a drag racer at all, but in my opinion IRS complicates a lot of things (as well as increases cost), and I'd suspect a lot of the potential buyers of these cars will be looking to use them primarily for drag racing. The number of 4th gens that are drag raced to auto-x or road raced has to be atleast 4 to 1, judging by what I've seen on message boards. 3-link solves all :).
.......

Actually, the number of people who buy Camaros that don't race at all FAR out number those who do...that and the platform this car will be on is IRS only.

Besides, it'll give it one more option up on the Mustang.

Ralph LoGrasso

11-21-2005, 08:47 PM

Actually, the number of people who buy Camaros that don't race at all FAR out number those who do...that and the platform this car will be on is IRS only.

Besides, it'll give it one more option up on the Mustang.

Very true, and I thought about that when posting, but I was directing my statement more towards the performance minded enthusiasts, rather than the general V6 buying public. Like I said before though, as long as it looks good, is fast and reasonably priced-- the rest is simply details...

Jim Nilsen

11-21-2005, 09:13 PM

Don't any of you remember the add for the Camaro when it first came out? It was called the "poor mans Corvette" for a reason, it had as much power and it was meant to race. What it didn't have was what it did have so to speak. It had a back seat,more weight somewhat, more comfort,more choices of of performance or lack of, and more people who could afford it. All of which made it slower,less racy and not as top end stylish as was obtainable ,all of which made it less money to make.

I really like McBrides sketch and think it could be a winner if it has everything to match the Vette with. If you can't interchange the engine components with the Vette it will be a dead car. If it will be interchangable power with the Vette it will guarantee that anyone with a bigger pocket book can have a Camaro that can kick a Mustangs butt and hang with a Vette yet not be one. I remember hearing about guys putting Vette this and Vette that parts on Camaros for years and we are still doing it today so if it isn't what is going to happen in our future it will be a dead car for it's whole future.

It's not what the Camaro will be when it comes out that will make it a great car it is what you will be able to make it that will make it a great car. The Mustang retro thing will fade just like Mustangs faded in my life. I was a diehard mustang guy for years until I found out that you could make a Camaro into a better performer with Vette parts off of the shelf.

So it had better be a poormans Corvette or it will be a dead car to start with. I hope someone is listening and remebering the history repeating itself is what retro is all about and not just styling but the performance transformation capability that got us all back at this discussion.

I remember back in 65 when everyone was saying that GM didn't have a clue as what we all wanted. So if they can just look back and lather ,rinse and repeat they just might make it. But they just have to not miss what it was they were really doing at the roots of it all because Rogaine and Grecian formula just won't work!!!

Jim Nilsen

Matt

11-21-2005, 09:47 PM

Marketing is a different game now. You have to make the public want what you have, you have to create buzz, you have to use word of mouth, and you have to wow people on their first go with your product.
C5R's win races, have nostalgia, and that sells cars.
Subaru's move to bring the WRX here was genius after the Gran Turismo Series helped hype it stateside, and they win races. That sells cars
Mustangs have nostalgia, and brand loyalty. That sells cars.
Dodge plays it's only 2 tricks, some impressive styling, and the hemi buzzward.
SUV's ride the zeitgeist, that sold them... until fuel wrecked them.

If Chevy can create buzz, win races, get plugged in pop culture, and ride the resurgence in pony/muscle car love, it'll sell cars.

As long as you make an effort to please them, the diehards aren't going away, you can't pander solely to the educated and appreciative, you have to market to the same guy that's tell you his lx7 motor in his crown vic is fast, because he has no effin clue what he's talking about.

gchandler

11-21-2005, 11:10 PM

You have to make it appeal to women. Women seem to like the mustang, current and last model. I can't say the same about the Camaro. Females have input into a dispropotionatly high number of new car purchase decisions.

A new camaro would also need to be better suited for use around town. The 4th gens have a lot of overhang, low ground clearance, poor visibility. These are issues that would need to be addressed if you want to build sales.

The way I see it people buy a camaro as a second of third car, they buy a mustang as their only car. Until the camaro can be purchased as an "only car" its sales will not even come close to those of the mustang.

trapin

11-22-2005, 05:21 AM

As far as marketing goes, they'd be well served to work up a Speed Challenge, GT3 or similar version then go out and spank some Bimmers, Porsches, Nissans and of course rustangs. Race it (and WIN) before they release it! They need to show that the new car is a legit world class performance car, not just a one trick pony musclecar. They need to attract buyers who are looking at Nissan 350s, Infinity G35s, 325i, M3.
That is an EXCELLENT idea. Well thought out. If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. After January I am going to e-mail that idea to Lutz (seriously...we're allowed to do that). He always welcomes input from employees regarding our products. Johnny...I will pass on yours and Steve's idea as well.

Steve1968LS2

11-22-2005, 09:27 AM

I dunno. the mustang has always outsold gm's offerings combined. Becuase they build the car to stand alone as a bread and butter car and then "build it up" for the enthusiasts. Gm "dumbs a car down." Designs the car as a Z/28 and then reverse engineers it. Lets face it. The Z car was better and faster but didn't sell as well. The only logical reason would have to be design.

The new design is outstanding. Even if Chevy and pontiac had a competitor, the stang would still rock. Its all about how that nostalgia is captured in the new design.
Mike desmond did a concept drawing of a modern camaro a few years ago. Still to this day, I say it is the way to go. I'll be shocked, SHOCKED, if GM doesnt go with a "retro" verson, and failing to do so will kill the GM we know. It would be the final insult, salt in the wound, or whatever to millions of car buying enthusiasts.

The mustang outsold the Camaro because of sales of their V6 model.. the 4th fbody suffered from bad ergonomics like the incredibly LONG doors and low floor that made getting in and out of the car harder, unlike the mustang that was more like a corola and easier to live with as a daily driver/commuter.

The new mustang is a great car and has zero competition.. both plusses for Ford.

In January we WILL see a new Camaro concept card.. of this I am 99% sure since we got an invite to the unveiling at COBO hall. If GM does it right a new Camaro will sell like hotcakes, if they do it right and that is always the big question. It needs to have the performance but it also needs to have some practicality as a V6 version to make the sales numbers. It also needs to be affordable with a base V8 model somewhere around 24k and an all-out SS version up near 30K.. v6 models as close to 20k as possible..

As for the challenger.. I will believe a two door, manual shifted Challenger when I see it.. Diamler is not known for thier love of manual gearboxs (viper excluded)..

Steve1968LS2

11-22-2005, 09:29 AM

You have to make it appeal to women. Women seem to like the mustang, current and last model. I can't say the same about the Camaro. Females have input into a dispropotionatly high number of new car purchase decisions.

A new camaro would also need to be better suited for use around town. The 4th gens have a lot of overhang, low ground clearance, poor visibility. These are issues that would need to be addressed if you want to build sales.

Dead on.. look how many V6 mustangs are in the rental fleets.. a 4th gen Camaro is not a "womans car".. they were hard to live with. Unfortunatly for a car to sell lots of units it has to be made to appeal to the masses and not enthusiasts. Thats why its important that they have a good base then added on performance packages (not just sticker kits)..

January should be interesting! :)

TonyL

11-22-2005, 09:38 AM

basicly the same point steve. another way of putting it, is "Design the camaro for the masses, first. Then pump it up for guys like us." `

If they make the base model desireable, functional, and practical in the price department. they will have a winner. If they just produce an all out mustang beater that is only capable of of doing "speed" well. It'll tank.

It needs to be just as happy taking the kids to school and commuting to work as it is blowing the doors off a mustang from a stoplight.

Steve1968LS2

11-22-2005, 10:18 AM

I don't know if somebody has already posted it.. but the latest spy shot of the new challenger..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Looks like GM is the winner so far in the "keep the car a secret" competition.. lol

rob07002

11-22-2005, 10:30 AM

Santa Claus: Ho! Ho! Ho! Well Robbie, why don't you sit on Santa's lap and tell
him what you want for Christmas.

Rob: Ok Santa, I want a new Camaro to be wicked cool looking have a 450+
hp v8 offerd with a 6speed, and be affordable. I want to be able to get
it in various trim packages with lots of options I can check off
individually. I also want cool color choices and the appropriate stripes.
Most of all Santa I want to be able to kick a Mustangs a$$.

Santa Claus: Whoa! Robbie, thats a pretty tall order.....Have you been a good boy?

Rob: I sure have Santa, well as long as you don't count spending every dime I
have on my car....Oh, yeah and then there's my alcoholism.....

Damn True

11-22-2005, 10:43 AM

As for the challenger.. I will believe a two door, manual shifted Challenger when I see it.. Diamler is not known for thier love of manual gearboxs (viper excluded)..

That's because they cling to the luxo-side of the market.

Zee manual gear zelector iz for ze BMW unt zee auto (wit perhas one of zoes nifty tiptronic zelectorz) iz for ze Daimler. Unt zat iz zat.

Id be surprised too if the challenge wound up with a manual. Probably some kind of manumatic thing. Hey, maybe Steveo can get them to spec Shrifters on them?

BuddyP

11-22-2005, 12:55 PM

Actually, the number of people who buy Camaros that don't race at all FAR out number those who do...that and the platform this car will be on is IRS only.

just heard the concept may be based on a stretched Kappa.

vanzuuk1

11-22-2005, 05:29 PM

Am I crazy , or does the challenger photo look photoshopped in the front area?

Also ,Johns sketch is awesome , one of my favorite concept sketches of all time. If the camaro looks like the that I will have a difficult decision to make.

John , the rocker in front of the rear tire is crying for an exhaust outlet.

Nine Ball

11-23-2005, 06:37 AM

McBride, that is THE best looking concept rendering I've ever seen for a future Camaro. The others out there looked somewhat quirky and strange. Maybe you could find a company to build THAT car on the side and sell them :)

If the next Camaro has an IRS rearend, I just hope it is beefy enough to survive the beatings it will receive. Sucks that they put a V6 capable rearend in the 4th gens, hope they don't do that again. Knowing GM, I wouldn't expect any late model turbos under the hood, most likely an Eaton blower sitting on an LS2.

Things I miss about Camaros: having a trunk. No more of this hatchback crap! Please give us a nice secure and roomy trunk again. Please do not hide the engine halfway under the dash either. Look at the Vette, very sleek car and the engine is fully exposed. A true dual exhaust system would also be nice, the single exhaust setups on the 3rd-4th gen never really sounded "right" compared to duals.

I'm going to buy whatever Camaro comes out. Its sort of my duty online to do so :)

Tony

JohnnyGMachine

11-23-2005, 07:09 AM

Thanks Dirk. What makes you think I haven't already thought of a Street Fighter 5th Gen......hmmmm

Thanks Tony. Somebody is building the sketch...GM LOL! JK. I've been a Mustang guy for a long time but with all the excitement going on about new pony cars and Hemis and retro Camaros it's gonna be tough! I'll make a deal, I'll turn traitor to the Mustang if the new Camaro comes out and it looks even remotely close to my sketch. I'll have to buy one and sell the two stangs! :seizure:

John

BonzoHansen

11-23-2005, 07:10 AM

.. a 4th gen Camaro is not a "womans car".. Exactly. Along with all of the above notes about the doors, etc. The 4th gen was intimidating to the average driver. The Mustang (in its up years) was never intimidating looking. I’m talking the base/everyday ones, of course. The Z can be intimidating as you want it to be. :) Oh, no hatch too. They suck.

In reality, it needs to bring people in the door, even if they buy something else. Chevy needs increased traffic more than anything. And their cars need to look better than the new Impala. Ugh. It makes the Euro Lumina from the 80s look modern & high tech. There is a shot of one in the new Super Chevy. Dreadful. The only shot I have seen of the new trucks does look promising.

Past styling, people think GM cars break down and are otherwise low quality. GM needs to capitalize on their apparent quality improvements (all them JD Power awards). Up the bumper-to-bumper warranty to 5/60 from 3/36. Sell value. That should let them have a little more margin per car, and they need that cash. The 5/60 is why I bought my Old Intrigue over some other 4 door family car. That 3.5 OHC motor in my Olds would be sweet in a lot of cars too. ¾ of a Northstar.

bnickel

11-23-2005, 09:33 AM

when my wife and i got married she had a 95 formula with the lt1 350 and auto. when she got pregnant we debated on whether or not to keep it exactly because of how hard it was to get in and out of. we took it to the shop to have it looked at because it was making noise when you put it in gear, i thought it was just a u-joint but it turns out the POS "v6 capable" rearend was already going out and the tranny was having problems as well. the car only had less than 40,000 miles on it and was only 3 years old. unfortunately she bought it used and of cours it was out of warranty so that's what made the decision of keeping it or not for us.

mr5231

11-23-2005, 10:40 AM

Unfortunately, I don't believe that releasing a 5th generation Camaro is a smart business move for GM. Nor do I think it is a smart move for DCX to release a challenger. Don't get me wrong, I'd would love to see GM build a new camaro and I'm trying to figure out a way to convince my wife to let me buy that challenger. I'm sure everyone on this forum wouldn't mind owning a 5th gen Camaro. However, we make up a very small piece of GM's customers. I really don't think that the word or name Camaro is very highly thought of by the general public. When the the buying public thinks of a Mustang it is thought of as a car everyone can have fun driving or fun for the whole family. The Camaro is viewed as more of a unpractical car with more of a macho demeanor. The 5th gen Camaro is a good idea if, GM's plans are to sell a relatively low production Camaro to mostly the male baby boomers who have always wanted one or even people who have a passion for Camaros. However, if they plan to out sell the mustang or meet some kind of record sales they are kidding them selves. For GM's sake I'd rather see them come out with a new affordable V8 performance coupe that offers more of a BMW M3 or Audi S4 type of package for much less. Possibly all wheel drive. A new car the man of the house can convince his wife to buy as a second family vehicle.

Steve Chryssos

11-23-2005, 11:17 AM

I don't know if somebody has already posted it.. but the latest spy shot of the new challenger..
.....Looks like GM is the winner so far in the "keep the car a secret" competition.. lol

No way dude. That photo's gotta be a staged leak. Hello? Brenda? Got a camera? Go to this address, but try to make it look like a spy photo. It's too clear and the car's too pretty.

C'mon GM! Give Brenda a call.

69Nova

11-23-2005, 11:50 AM

No way dude. That photo's gotta be a staged leak. Hello? Brenda? Got a camera? Go to this address, but try to make it look like a spy photo. It's too clear and the car's too pretty.

C'mon GM! Give Brenda a call.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Nine Ball

11-23-2005, 06:25 PM

looks staged to me also. The background looks like Hazzard County, and the car is orange. I wonder if they are filming a Dukes commercial or something :)

trapin

11-24-2005, 03:31 PM

I really don't think that the word or name Camaro is very highly thought of by the general public. When the the buying public thinks of a Mustang it is thought of as a car everyone can have fun driving or fun for the whole family. The Camaro is viewed as more of a unpractical car with more of a macho demeanor.
It's a good thing you don't throw steak knives at female assistants for the carnival because you were off on that one by a country mile. :lmao:

The Camaro is one of the most beloved sports cars in American history. We lost our way in the area of practicality the last couple of models...but nothing is forever.

In other words. Don't leave the stadium before the 4th quarter...you never know what you might miss.

JamesD

11-24-2005, 08:27 PM

The Camaro is one of the most beloved sports cars in American history. We lost our way in the area of practicality the last couple of models...but nothing is forever.

It's a good thing you don't throw steak knives at female assistants for the carnival because you were off on that one by a country mile. :lmao:

In other words. Don't leave the stadium before the 4th quarter...you never know what you might miss.

haha, I was thinking the same thing when I read that. But seriously, the only way the Camaro will ever be popular is if gm MARKETS IT!!!. When the Camaro was still around I saw one or two magazine ads for it, and that was it. When the new mustangs came out I can’t even tell you how many TV commercials, magazine ads, and billboards I saw. Not to mention product placement in popular TV shows (one of the characters on Fox's The O.C. drives a convertible mustang with the gleaming mustang logo predominantly placed). So if any one from gm reads this :look: make sure every one and their mother knows what the Camaro is, by plastering its image all over the place.

BonzoHansen

11-25-2005, 10:20 AM

Unfortunately, I don't believe that releasing a 5th generation Camaro is a smart business move for GM. Nor do I think it is a smart move for DCX to release a challenger. If they do it right, like the Viper, I think it is. I stand by this:

In reality, it needs to bring people in the door, even if they buy something else. Chevy needs increased traffic more than anything.Build some excitement, some positive press and bring them in. Just like the Viper did in the 90s.

Now, if they f it up, well, then you are right.

mr5231

11-29-2005, 05:52 AM

You guys really need to read the whole post. If GM plans on selling a lower production car like the viper, they may be successful. However, if they plan on out selling the mustang or at least selling a large volume, I just don't think the Camaro is the car to do it with. GM cannot afford another SSR.

Also, you really need to open your eyes to rest of the general public. Most individuals are not going to buy a Camaro other than for a third car or a toy. This is why the Camaros were discontinued.

Don't get me wrong. I hope your rignt. I would love to own a fifth gen Camaro and I hope GM is succesfull with it.

EFI69Cam

11-30-2005, 05:31 AM

The time to have started a replacement architecture for the F-Body would have been around '98 or '99. At the time we were pretty heavy into SUV, crossover, and truck programs (so was the rest of the industry) There was only a small number of car programs going back then that really weren't the focus at the time. Some have made it, others didn't. A replacement architecture that would have suited a new F-body was just in it's infancy when the 4th gen model had reached the end of it's lifecycle. A lot has happened since then which unfortunately is proprietary and I can't discuss. Who knew that Ford was creating the new Mustang and that it would do as well as it did? Give kudos to Ford for rolling the dice and leaving the casino with some green backs. Their gamble paid off. Now it's time to answer the call. And Chrysler apparantly agrees.

People were writing letters to GM since the rumors of the Camaros demise started in 97 or so. They had plenty of time to get a new car ready, they chose not to. They are paying the price for ignoring what their customers wanted. I'm sure the $10k profit margins on Tahoes blinded them, but I still think the upper managment at GM rides to work in the short bus.

trapin

11-30-2005, 07:18 AM

EFI69Cam

11-30-2005, 08:53 AM

As I stated above...back then we were heavy into the truck, SUV, and crossover stuff. There wasn't much of a business case for Camaro as there is now. Was it a mistake? Yeah...it probably was. But lets not overestimate the importance of the Camaro to GM's profit margin. Camaro never has nor will it ever be a cash cow for us. A car such as that serves as an "attention getter" to get people into the showroooms and to generate publicity for the car brand. Ask Ford how much money they're making off of Mustang. My Cousin works in financial for Ford and from what he tells me....it ain't much. You have to take care of the programs that will make you money FIRST before you start horsing around with a niche platform.

Hey C'mon....be thankful it's at least happening now.

The automotive market is similar to other consumer goods in that it is fad driven. GM benifited greatly from some of their vehicles being featured in hip-hop videos. The SUV fad is over now. People are interested in rwd performance again, the fugly Charger is selling based on the car and engine name. Ford was going to kill the rwd Mustang and make it fwd (the probe was the mustang's ******* child) but they listened to their customers. GM should have done the same. I don't get weepy over the Camaro name, GM has lost me as a customer anyways due to the jackasses they give dealer franchises to.