Another 69 Camaro Chassis Question- Detroit Speed or Roadster Shop

[harpie5959]

Hello everyone,
First let me introduce myself. My name is Kyle and I have been following this site for a long time but have never posted anything.
I have a 69 Camaro Yenko clone that I restored with my dad throughout high school and into my college years.
I have been saving my money for this project for a long time and am trying to finally start purchasing some things.
I just bought an LSA from a 2015 ZL1 for the car and am trying to decide on a chassis.
My needs/wants for my car will be mainly for a great riding car that I can drive anywhere on a nice day, but I also really want a good track car that I can take out for a track day or run an autocross event a few times a year.
I have pretty much narrowed it down to a Roadster Shop Fast Track Chassis With Independent Rear Suspension or the full Detroit Speed Front subframe and Quadralink with subframe connectors.
My thoughts are the IRS will be much nicer of a ride for the everyday driving and that the chassis will be a very fun good riding good handling vehicle.
The downside is obviously the cost. I could get the full DSE set-up for almost half of the price of the RS chassis.
Does anyone here have these set-ups or driven both?
I would really like some real world feedback on these options and opinions on if the roadster shop would be worth the extra money.
I plan to never sell this car so I really want to do it once and be done.
I really did try to search a lot for direct comparison of these two setups and I apologize if I am posting something that has been answered 1000 times.
I truly appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

137748

[dhutton]

Did you consider the Art Morrison front subframe and IRS setup? Might be a little more budget friendly IRS option.

Nothing wrong with DSE or Roadstershop options.

Don

[TheJDMan]

You are in the same boat I was four years ago, I went with a DSE subframe and Chassisworks G-Link and I have been very pleased with the result. My only recommendation would be to stick with one of our site sponsors. Our sponsors are the top of the game with respect to Pro-Touring suspensions. Spend time on each of the company web sites and order product catalogs from each. Compare the different products to your needs/wants/budget. In the end there is no wrong answer, buy what works for your project.

[Schwartz Performance]

Not sure if you've looked at our chassis, but ours offers very nice ride quality, even with the solid axle. Feel free to PM or call me and discuss.

-Dale

www.gmachinechassis.com

[Build-It-Break-It]

Roadster shop and Detroit speed are NEVER on here helping customers. I'd go another route,service after the sale is important.

I'd go Speedtech performance extreme front subframe or look into the Schwartz performance chassis if you want a full chassis.

Speedtech performance is ALWAYS on here answering questions and helping customers. So is Dale from Schwartz performance. They don't just answer questions about their products but others as well. Great guys to deal with.

[GRNOVA]

Roadster shop and Detroit speed are NEVER on here helping customers. I'd go another route,service after the sale is important.

I'd go Speedtech performance extreme front subframe or look into the Schwartz performance chassis if you want a full chassis.

Speedtech performance is ALWAYS on here answering questions and helping customers. So is Dale from Schwartz performance. They don't just answer questions about their products but others as well. Great guys to deal with.

Here is my Experience, I have had the opportunity to use both products DSE front Nova clip, and RS full nova chassis w/IRS . Yes they are not that present on the forums and such, but as far as customer service is concerned they have both been top notch for me after the sale. A quick phone call and they were very helpful in my situation. I have also talked to Schwartz performance and they were helpful on their products and others too. So It all comes down to your budget design and your ability as to which Vender you choose. And yes if a shop is to perform the install find out which Vender they have a good relationship with, this can go along way in the Budget aspect of things. Good luck and keep us posted!

[DippedInSauce]

Hello everyone,
First let me introduce myself. My name is Kyle and I have been following this site for a long time but have never posted anything.
I have a 69 Camaro Yenko clone that I restored with my dad throughout high school and into my college years.
I have been saving my money for this project for a long time and am trying to finally start purchasing some things.
I just bought an LSA from a 2015 ZL1 for the car and am trying to decide on a chassis.
My needs/wants for my car will be mainly for a great riding car that I can drive anywhere on a nice day, but I also really want a good track car that I can take out for a track day or run an autocross event a few times a year.
I have pretty much narrowed it down to a Roadster Shop Fast Track Chassis With Independent Rear Suspension or the full Detroit Speed Front subframe and Quadralink with subframe connectors.
My thoughts are the IRS will be much nicer of a ride for the everyday driving and that the chassis will be a very fun good riding good handling vehicle.
The downside is obviously the cost. I could get the full DSE set-up for almost half of the price of the RS chassis.
Does anyone here have these set-ups or driven both?
I would really like some real world feedback on these options and opinions on if the roadster shop would be worth the extra money.
I plan to never sell this car so I really want to do it once and be done.
I really did try to search a lot for direct comparison of these two setups and I apologize if I am posting something that has been answered 1000 times.
I truly appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

137748

If you research both suspension systems from an engineering perspective, you'll discover the Roadster Shop system is light years ahead of anything DSE has to offer.

[harpie5959]

Here is my Experience, I have had the opportunity to use both products DSE front Nova clip, and RS full nova chassis w/IRS . Yes they are not that present on the forums and such, but as far as customer service is concerned they have both been top notch for me after the sale. A quick phone call and they were very helpful in my situation. I have also talked to Schwartz performance and they were helpful on their products and others too. So It all comes down to your budget design and your ability as to which Vender you choose. And yes if a shop is to perform the install find out which Vender they have a good relationship with, this can go along way in the Budget aspect of things. Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks for the response Tim. I looked at your build and have to say that is a great looking project! It looks like you aren't quite to the driving stage. Were you able to drive a car with the RS chassis with IRS before you purchased yours?
Thanks,
Kyle

[harpie5959]

You are in the same boat I was four years ago, I went with a DSE subframe and Chassisworks G-Link and I have been very pleased with the result. My only recommendation would be to stick with one of our site sponsors. Our sponsors are the top of the game with respect to Pro-Touring suspensions. Spend time on each of the company web sites and order product catalogs from each. Compare the different products to your needs/wants/budget. In the end there is no wrong answer, buy what works for your project.

Steve, Thanks for your response and advice. I have been collecting catalogs for a long time from shows and SEMA and such. It looks like they are all good options as you mentioned.
How do you like your car as far as a daily driver? Do you autocross it or take it to track days? What has been your experience in these situations if you don't mind my asking?
Thanks again,
Kyle

[dhutton]

If you research both suspension systems from an engineering perspective, you'll discover the Roadster Shop system is light years ahead of anything DSE has to offer.

Could you list some specifics.

Thanks,
Don

[dontlifttoshift]

Yeah, that. ^^^

I see the "they're not on the forums" a lot and that seems like a weird metric to judge the quality of any parts or people by. Prodigy was on here all the time offering help along with the pitch. All of the manufacturers have a phone number and that should be the main point of contact for tech questions regarding a specific product. The forums are a great place to get opinions from the people that actually are using the parts, like GRNOVA's post above. The opinion of someone with no skin in the game is usually more valuable.

Directly to the OP.

Have you ever autocrossed or done a track day? If so, in what?

Are you doing this work yourself? What are your fab skills like? How well equipped is your home shop?

If you are paying someone to do this, what are their fab skills like?

You will pay more for the RS chassis but the install is less labor intensive. The RS FastTrack car will be heavier than a full DSE equipped car. The RS IRS rides better. period. The Quadralink puts down power better, that's just an opinion, I have no data to support that.

I would be willing to bet that a RS Spec chassis fits your needs.

[darbikrash]

As someone who has built a car using Roaster Shop chassis, I might add a few comments. I think there is quite a bit more here than choosing a supplier, the main decision in my opinion is that you are comparing converting a unibody car to a full frame chassis, as compared using the basic unibody configuration with upgrades. The choice of supplier is secondary to this basic decision.

While the Roadster Shop chassis is truly ahead of the game with their manufacturing quality, don’t underestimate how much trouble it is to install a full custom chassis in a car that was designed to be unibody. My car is an A body, so it had a full frame from the factory-and it was still a big deal.

We also did a 2nd Gen Camaro for autocross, and for this car we went a different direction, we used a Speedtech torque arm for the rear and a front sub frame from a different supplier and this was a much simpler and cheaper project with very good results. I would think you would have to be a very good driver indeed to measure any difference between this setup and an IRS rear with full frame- if there is a difference at all. I would expect a weight penalty with the full chassis setup as well.

If you do decide to go full frame, maybe the RS Spec series is a better choice for a 1st Gen F body as opposed to the FastTrack, it purportedly fits with few modifications.

If it were me, I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Speedtech setup again, and this time I would go for their front sub frame as well.

[harpie5959]

Yeah, that. ^^^

I see the "they're not on the forums" a lot and that seems like a weird metric to judge the quality of any parts or people by. Prodigy was on here all the time offering help along with the pitch. All of the manufacturers have a phone number and that should be the main point of contact for tech questions regarding a specific product. The forums are a great place to get opinions from the people that actually are using the parts, like GRNOVA's post above. The opinion of someone with no skin in the game is usually more valuable.

Directly to the OP.

Have you ever autocrossed or done a track day? If so, in what?

Are you doing this work yourself? What are your fab skills like? How well equipped is your home shop?

If you are paying someone to do this, what are their fab skills like?

You will pay more for the RS chassis but the install is less labor intensive. The RS FastTrack car will be heavier than a full DSE equipped car. The RS IRS rides better. period. The Quadralink puts down power better, that's just an opinion, I have no data to support that.

I would be willing to bet that a RS Spec chassis fits your needs.

Hi Donny,
Thanks for the response, I agree about using the forum for opinions from actual owners or builders who have run these set-ups which is what I was hoping to find here.
I have done the Mid Ohio Driver's School and had the opportunity to autocross an S2000 and Acura ILX there, as well as run the road course in a caged Acura ILX with some modifications.
I grew up racing go-karts and and have done some events in a 2005 Dodge Neon SRT-4.
Most recently I got to drive a 2017 Acura NSX around an autocross track.
My driving skills are nowhere near great at this point, but I would like to build the car that I can grow into and not regret having not done certain things later.
I will be doing the work with my dad and he has been restoring first gen Camaro's and some other muscle cars for the last 40 years.
I have been helping for the last 20.
As far as body work/sheet metal fab goes, we shouldn't have any issues with the basics. We don't have the experience/tools to shape very complex sheet metal but can use the basic plasma cutter/brake press to make filler panels and such as needed. We have a two post, four post, and scissors lift and should be pretty good on the equipment for any of these set-ups.
I also agree that the full chassis will be less labor and that is a large factor in my decision.
Thanks again for your input,
Kyle

[Rod]

I plan to never sell this car so I really want to do it once and be done.
137748


if you race....it will never be done...nature of the game.....on the good side... between DSE and RS.... pick the RS or Schwartz chassis faster up times with those....DSE is very nice, but its just a sub frame not a full frame

[ra11ysport]

Honestly i wouldnt do anything but drop in a subframe of your choice and ridetech 4 link and call it done. That car is really nice i wouldnt cut on it. Id put 295s on all 4 corners and it will handle as well as anything on the street.

If it were a deep pocket money build then yeah the roadster chasis all the way.

The more i see these big 335 tire cars the more i dont want one. A good balanced car with 275s is just as much fun on the street.

Goodluck

[Finnan]

I've tried and tried to resist but I can't. Listen, you've been a member here for a bit, so respect for that, but for those who get it, this almost feels like a troll ad.

First off, without even touching the conversation about cost or quality comparison, (which everyone will hem and haw over, although both are very effective in their own right), an irs clad rs frame and the dse stuff are certainly different; Geometery, components, handing, ride 'dynamics', the amount of work to install, cost as you mentioned, blah blah blah ....so I'm curious as to your thought process of narrowing it down to those two setups, if you care to elaborate.

If you think you're just going to ask a few broad questions like such and receive the magic bullet anSwer, or have a eureka moment of clarity about the generally accepted BEST route, you won't. Do more research. COMB every thread online that has anything in depth to do with dse and rs builds, as well as everyone else that offers what your looking for imo.

That said, here's my 2 cents. I keep hanging on a few key things you said. You want something that will:

A. Be a Great riding car
B. Drive anywhere on a nice day
C. Do A FEW track events a year

Unless you're planning on competing with the pros, a stock sub among other things will do all that all day long and build value in your car while still saving you a truckload of money. If it were me, after seeing the prices on pro-touring/restomod stuff at the auctions in the last 6 months, I would not be itching to pour 50-100k into a muscle car unless I was a flat badass at doing 95% of the labor myself, and maybe not even then.

Good luck and remember, it's all about making a reasonable realistic plan and staying within your own set boundaries. I know a lot of the fun is in the process but ONLY IF YOU FINISH IT. Check the for sale section and everyone trying and failing miserably to sell parts/project cars ranging from close to what they have in them to far less if you need a reference. Real talk.

[Zl1427]

[QUOTE=Finnan;1222721

If you think you're just going to ask a few broad questions like such and receive the magic bullet anSwer, or have a eureka moment of clarity about the generally accepted BEST route, you won't. Do more research. COMB every thread online that has anything in depth to do with dse and rs builds, as well as everyone else that offers what your looking for imo.

That said, here's my 2 cents. I keep hanging on a few key things you said. You want something that will:

A. Be a Great riding car
B. Drive anywhere on a nice day
C. Do A FEW track events a year

Unless you're planning on competing with the pros, a stock sub among other things will do all that all day long and build value in your car while still saving you a truckload of money. If it were me, after seeing the prices on pro-touring/restomod stuff at the auctions in the last 6 months, I would not be itching to pour 50-100k into a muscle car unless I was a flat badass at doing 95% of the labor myself, and maybe not even then.

Good luck and remember, it's all about making a reasonable realistic plan and staying within your own set boundaries. I know a lot of the fun is in the process but ONLY IF YOU FINISH IT.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to chime in on our friend from across the pond comments.

He hit the nail on the head !!!! In so many ways and so many points. Many of us are looking for that Golden Answer, that will, put our mind as ease, help us sleep at night and feel confident about whatever desicion we just settled on.

As for what suspension to choose ? IMO, unless you have a specific purpose in mind, there is no best choice. You want the best, I'm guessing. Don't we all but the reality is. And this encompasses the entire Resto process. You must ask and answer a few No Brainer questions. Being honest with yourself when answering these questions is the key if you want a truly honest answer. For many of us, most of those answers wont be what we want to hear.

I'll pony up my story for some perspective. I'm 54.
This is my second, from scratch build. Worst possible $$$ way to go about it, possible. You'll never come close recouping what was spent. Forget about the countless hours you personally invested.

I had my mind made up, I wanted a Pace car, period. Had to be a Pace car. Spent $32K, for basically a driver quality car. Saw the car and had to bring it home. My first mistake and I knew I was making it when I bought the car. Now I could have spent another $10K, and called it a day. Time to sell, maybe loose that $10K but that would have been about all I lost.

The Money Pit,
I decide I want it restored. Gotta be nicer than nice. You know the drill. To date, I've got about $16K in body work and panels alone. I'm looking at another $10-$15K for paint. I can do everything myself but the 2 above mentioned. No time and no experience. Now I'm up to about $60K in this project. Car is completely gutted at this point. And now, the never ending list of high $$$ items comes into play. Engine, Trans, Rear, suspension, Interior and so on. What to choose ? It's mind blowing at this point, the options that are available. I knew mostly what I wanted.

The really hard part is to Tempor the wants against the needs. I wanted an LS3 with a T-56. That alone was $9,000.00. I could have rebuilt what I had at about half the cost. The list goes on and on.

To address your question and I'm in the same boat. What to choose. I've come to 2 conclusions.
1). Unless you are building a car for a specific purpose. There is no perfect suspension setup. I've looked and read and read and looked at the G-Link, Quadra-Link, Ride Tech, Heidts, Morrison, BMR. All are designed for a specific purpose. There's no magic bullet setup that meets every need. I would love to drop an IRS, in my car but can't justify the cost. Truth be told, I won't be driving it to truly appreciate the benefit anyway. I've heard great things about the Ride Tech, setup. It's cheap, easy to install, bolts right in, no welding And it's easy to remove if you want to return to stock.
2). How often do,you intend to drive it. Daily driver, once a week, once a month ? We all want the best but keep it in perspective and accept your decisions, no regrets. You have a great looking car, honestly. Enjoy it without attempting to create the ultimate 69 Camaro.

[ra11ysport]

We all want the best but keep it in perspective and accept your decions, no regrets. You have a great looking car, honestly. Enjoy it without attempting to create the ultimate 69 Camaro.

I couldnt agree more!

[colorado80439]

Yikes, this is getting off track!
I've read many posts by Dhutton and "the" JDMan (I love that 68) on lateral G always with good advice.
I'm in the same boat looking for some real world experience for mostly street and little road race.
I will be visiting the roadster shop next week for the second time to look at the fast track front subframe for a '68, it's my understanding that with the full chassis you will loose the back seat and it's a lot of extensive floor work. With the RS depending on the engine application dry or wet you may have to purchase an aftermarket oil pan and with some applications you will need the upgraded woodward rack for $2500.
I continue to vacillate toward the DSE front subframe, seems like they have done a lot of the R&D specially for the LS.
I like the Morrison rear setup, beefy rear subframe with less floor mods, you keep the back seat and you can get your IRS.
Wish I had some "real world" to give ya

[nzcarguy]

Hi Team

I have a RS SPEC build on a 68 Firebird set up for LS. The SPEC build quality is great, it is an easy fit, no real mods required other than fuel tank, sump (requires Mast Motorsport) and brake cable (Wilwood rear calipers). The post sales support is marginal, we have a though compliance requirement in NZ and getting information on things like bump steer has had little response.

[Cdog]

Dont over look the Morrison set up. Should you decide to go with the Tri-4 bar you can add the IRS to the frame later once you get the car figured out and keep growth in the project. Take a look at some of the guys who test and have actual data after testing track days. The Pozzi’s come to mind. I race SCCA SRF3 and can tell you having parts commonality to determine set up and people with experience on those set ups will save you big bucks in the long run.

In short, look at what the the pozzi’s are doing.

[joeko23]

Just to add my .2 cents and maybe many will disagree with me because others who build pro-touring cars build them for mostly track use, but either way look into Heidt's ProG front subframe and their IRS. I was going to go everything Heidt's but the project car I bought already had a Chassisworks front subframe so I just got the Heidt's IRS. The fit and quality is superb. Very easy to put together. Unfortunately, I'm not at the driving point in my build yet, but I have reached out to several board members on here who have the Heidts IRS and they love them for both street and track. So if you are really building a mostly street driven car and want a more modern feel with the IRS check out Heidt's. Like I said, their front subframe is excellent as well and is way stronger and lighter than the stock subframe. Best part the cost of the front subframe with the IRS is under $14k and that's EVERYTHING, no nickel and diming like the other manufacturers, brakes, rotors, spindles, rear center section, tranny cross member, motor mounts, and even braided SS brake lines. If you need a recommendation for an authorized distributor who will give you a great price on Heidt's PM me.