Camber / Tall spindle dilema

[6carmelo8]

Right now, I am at the ride height that I am very happy with but my QA1 coilovers but are all the way down and can feel them bottom out when hitting drainage ditches at low speeds. I never have a problem bottoming out at high speeds so I can avoid this from happening.

I have the old model GW arms and learned that they now have a LCA that allows my coilover to sit an inch lower allowing me raise the coilover 1/2" to achieve the same ride height giving me just enough more shock travel to completely avoid the bottoming out issue. Remember, 1/2 rise since it's 2:1 ratio.

I also, have the Ridetech tall drop spindle and TRU turn kit.
I also, have a bent outer ring on both front wheels that I want to replace.

My main question is, for the street / spirited driving and never seeing the track, with just the GW arms and sway bars, will I notice a difference with the taller drop spindle giving me better camber geometry under compression?

Something tells me that the stock spindle, GW arms, sway bar combo will be more than enough.

What are your thoughts?

The one reason that's making want to run the TRU turn instead of selling the kit is that I can replace the bent outer rings and making my fronts to 9"- 9.5" from the 8.5" and ALSO allowing me to run the CTS-V brake swap via LSX concepts brackets which are designed bracket out there to run them, which I've been wanting to do.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[David Pozzi]

Most QA1 springs are too soft to run on a car as low as yours, as you go lower you have less room for suspension travel, so you need stiffer springs.
You say you have no bottoming problem at higher speeds. That's because you have no front spoiler but do have a rear spoiler. At high speeds the rear pushes down, the front lifts up due to the poor aerodynamics of the front end. Stiffer springs help keep the front from lifting as much but you still have a bunch of aero lift up front, like 150lbs at 100mph.

High positive caster helps as much or more than negative camber gain. The caster helps most in tighter turns, the neg camber gain helps in high speed sweepers. The stock suspension is so poor in both, that you need to improve both caster an neg camber gain. Taller spindles increase bump steer, - the tires toe-out when you hit the brakes causing the car to dart left and right. It also makes the car wander as it rolls in a turn, makes the driver have to make a lot of steering corrections.

Suspension kits have parts that are designed to complement each other, so doing the tall spindles with Tru-Turn will give you the best feel and driveability on the road. The Tru-Turn is optimized for the tall spindles. Be sure to use a fast ratio stiff feel steering box, it's key to having a great driving car.
133939

[6carmelo8]

Most QA1 springs are too soft to run on a car as low as yours, as you go lower you have less room for suspension travel, so you need stiffer springs.
You say you have no bottoming problem at higher speeds. That's because you have no front spoiler but do have a rear spoiler. At high speeds the rear pushes down, the front lifts up due to the poor aerodynamics of the front end. Stiffer springs help keep the front from lifting as much but you still have a bunch of aero lift up front, like 150lbs at 100mph.

High positive caster helps as much or more than negative camber gain. The caster helps most in tighter turns, the neg camber gain helps in high speed sweepers. The stock suspension is so poor in both, that you need to improve both caster an neg camber gain. Taller spindles increase bump steer, - the tires toe-out when you hit the brakes causing the car to dart left and right. It also makes the car wander as it rolls in a turn, makes the driver have to make a lot of steering corrections.

Suspension kits have parts that are designed to complement each other, so doing the tall spindles with Tru-Turn will give you the best feel and driveability on the road. The Tru-Turn is optimized for the tall spindles. Be sure to use a fast ratio stiff feel steering box, it's key to having a great driving car.
133939

Thank you Mr. Pozzi for taking the time to shed some light into the issue I have. It looks like I have more research to do and I didn't know that it's not just about tall spindles giving me better "handling" which is such a loose term but the total system that is most important.

[Ron Sutton]

Awesome data David !

[David Pozzi]

Thanks Ron! Great suspension seminar at Las Vegas!

6carmelo8,

option #1 stick with the stock spindles.
This will leave you with the ability of higher caster from use of the tubular A arms, but no camber fix via the tall spindle. You won't have the better camber gain of a tall spindle, but you also won't have the increased bump steer toe out in bump that they cause. You save the cost of buying the Tru-Turn or tall spindles. There will still be some substantial bump steer that all fist gen Camaros come with. Proforged sells 1/2" tall outer tie rod ends to reduce it greatly but not completely. Adding 1/2" taller upper ball joints for more camber gain pretty much brings bump steer back to stock levels if you use the tall tie rod ends. As far as bump travel, you can switch lower A arms but your lower A arm should be very close to hitting the spring bucket on the subframe in full bump. Take a look at that before making a decision.

Option 2
is to get the tall spindles and Tru-Turn package. This fixes bump steer and makes a very nice steering car, plus fixes camber gain, helps level the lower A arm, adds 2 inches more bump travel. This should put your shocks back close to their designed travel. If you want to keep softer springs for a better ride, you will have to tune your bump stops to save you from scraping the headers on dips, or go to stiffer coils.

I haven't looked at what 2" drop spindles do to Roll Center height or movement but I doubt there are any issues there for you. I'd be more concerned with suspension travel, spring rate, and bump steer.

I think for you, the option 2 is best. You won't need to change lower A arms and your shocks will be in a better travel position. I'd work on spacing your stock lower bump stops to provide dip protection. If you feel you are hitting the bump stops too often you may have to try stiffer coils. 600 lbs is a good rate to try, but . I don't know your current coil rate, it's probably 450 to 500.

As I mentioned before, a firm feel fast ratio power steering box is highly recommended to improve response, feel, and stability. Going to fast ratios without firm feel will make the car darty on the freeway or high speeds. Lack of a front spoiler causes front lift at high speeds and lack of stability. The front grille opening (including openings below the front bumper) on a first gen Camaro are 105% of the radiator area so the amount of air trapped in the front is huge. A second gen Camaro is around 75%.

[6carmelo8]

Thanks Ron! Great suspension seminar at Las Vegas!

6carmelo8,

option #1 stick with the stock spindles.
This will leave you with the ability of higher caster from use of the tubular A arms, but no camber fix via the tall spindle. You won't have the better camber gain of a tall spindle, but you also won't have the increased bump steer toe out in bump that they cause. You save the cost of buying the Tru-Turn or tall spindles. There will still be some substantial bump steer that all fist gen Camaros come with. Proforged sells 1/2" tall outer tie rod ends to reduce it greatly but not completely. Adding 1/2" taller upper ball joints for more camber gain pretty much brings bump steer back to stock levels if you use the tall tie rod ends. As far as bump travel, you can switch lower A arms but your lower A arm should be very close to hitting the spring bucket on the subframe in full bump. Take a look at that before making a decision.

Option 2
is to get the tall spindles and Tru-Turn package. This fixes bump steer and makes a very nice steering car, plus fixes camber gain, helps level the lower A arm, adds 2 inches more bump travel. This should put your shocks back close to their designed travel. If you want to keep softer springs for a better ride, you will have to tune your bump stops to save you from scraping the headers on dips, or go to stiffer coils.

I haven't looked at what 2" drop spindles do to Roll Center height or movement but I doubt there are any issues there for you. I'd be more concerned with suspension travel, spring rate, and bump steer.

I think for you, the option 2 is best. You won't need to change lower A arms and your shocks will be in a better travel position. I'd work on spacing your stock lower bump stops to provide dip protection. If you feel you are hitting the bump stops too often you may have to try stiffer coils. 600 lbs is a good rate to try, but . I don't know your current coil rate, it's probably 450 to 500.

As I mentioned before, a firm feel fast ratio power steering box is highly recommended to improve response, feel, and stability. Going to fast ratios without firm feel will make the car darty on the freeway or high speeds. Lack of a front spoiler causes front lift at high speeds and lack of stability. The front grille opening (including openings below the front bumper) on a first gen Camaro are 105% of the radiator area so the amount of air trapped in the front is huge. A second gen Camaro is around 75%.

Thank you for the the two options. These are the type of solutions most seek on these forms especially coming from someone as knowledgeable as you. The one problem I might run into is that the GW arms not working with Ridetech's TRU Turn kit...I'd hate to have to buy new arms and coilovers. That's close to another $2000! They did assure me they'd work just fine but you never know...

BTW I do have 12.7 670 box that I bought directly from Lee Manufacturing. It made a HUGE improvement and the feel is great. It's one of the best investments I've made on my car.

[oleyeller]

Just curious who assured you that GW control arms work with the RideTech True Turn system? RideTech? Or did I miss read your post.... I was told that there have been "problems using RideTech drop spindles with GW control arms... Wrong ball joint angles cause contact and premature ball joint failure. I have no data, just talk. I think I will stick with Pozzi's recommendations, for stock spindles. Let us know if you find out otherwise.
Thanks

[6carmelo8]

Just curious who assured you that GW control arms work with the RideTech True Turn system? RideTech? Or did I miss read your post.... I was told that there have been "problems using RideTech drop spindles with GW control arms... Wrong ball joint angles cause contact and premature ball joint failure. I have no data, just talk. I think I will stick with Pozzi's recommendations, for stock spindles. Let us know if you find out otherwise.
Thanks

There's a member over on Lateral G who runs GW arms with RideTech's GW with no issues. Where did you hear about them not working? This is disconcerting now ugh.

[oleyeller]

I was about to order the Trueturn system with Ridetech's spindles when I ask the vendor if they work with GW arms. Ridetech makes it clear in their advertising and videos that the system was all designed around their arms, and spindle, and say it's a package. The vendor indicated they had HEARD of people having issues with the ball joint angles, and contact with the arms. Nothing specific, just talk. I trust David and others who have been there, and done it, but $1K was a bit stiff for my budget to be trying things. It all started for me when I ask David if he knew anything about Speedway Motors new tall Comp G AFX spindle. I had talked to their "tech" expert about their claim of "Improves bump steer", and he said that the arms reduce it. I asked how much? They have no data to prove any improvements. I later received and email from them stating any bump steer issues must be "adjusted out " of any suspension system. I guess we just need to ask the question in open forum, who is sucessfully running GW upper and lower arms along with Ridetech's Trueturn system and drop spindles?

[David Pozzi]

I haven't set up a Camaro with this combo. Ive used GW A arms with stock spindles before though.
Here's my thought proccess on it.
A 2" drop spindle will drop the top of the spindle by 2" to achieve the same ride height as you have now. But, the spindle is 1.7" taller than stock, so the spindle top should sit 1/4" lower than where it is right now. If your GW upper is clearing OK now, then it should clear slightly better with the drop spindles installed. I don't see any issues with using GW lower arms other than the GW uppers locate the upper ball joint rearward for caster increase, the lowers are in stock location. This moves the spindle rearward a bit when you set a lot of positive casrer. Most Camaros have some clearance issues from the tire to rear inner wheelwell when turning sharply. The Ride Tech arms move the lower BJ forward, the upper rearward so the spindle is better centered in the wheelwell. It's probably only 3/8" difference, not a lot.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/components/spindles/
If you want to save money, look at option 1. Use the tall Proforged or Howe outer tie rod ends, stock upper ball joints for best bumpsteer, or .5 taller UBJ max. I doubt you would feel the improvement of the .5" taller UBJ's. If your car was a tenth or two faster on an autocross course, you wouldn't feel it. The tall UBJ's do increase bumpsteer and I think it is more important to improve bumpsteer than camber gain on a street car.

[Rod]

I can help here.....the tru-turn works with GW arms...the trturn also works with DSE arms ....I have run both combos along with variations (I.E. GW top arm, DSE lower arm and so on) there are some rearward fender clearance issues with 9.5 and wider rims, I had no issues with an 8.0 wide rim the swing was less

[ra11ysport]

I haven't set up a Camaro with this combo. Ive used GW A arms with stock spindles before though.
Here's my thought proccess on it.
A 2" drop spindle will drop the top of the spindle by 2" to achieve the same ride height as you have now. But, the spindle is 1.7" taller than stock, so the spindle top should sit 1/4" lower than where it is right now. If your GW upper is clearing OK now, then it should clear slightly better with the drop spindles installed. I don't see any issues with using GW lower arms other than the GW uppers locate the upper ball joint rearward for caster increase, the lowers are in stock location. This moves the spindle rearward a bit when you set a lot of positive casrer. Most Camaros have some clearance issues from the tire to rear inner wheelwell when turning sharply. The Ride Tech arms move the lower BJ forward, the upper rearward so the spindle is better centered in the wheelwell. It's probably only 3/8" difference, not a lot.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/components/spindles/
If you want to save money, look at option 1. Use the tall Proforged or Howe outer tie rod ends, stock upper ball joints for best bumpsteer, or .5 taller UBJ max. I doubt you would feel the improvement of the .5" taller UBJ's. If your car was a tenth or two faster on an autocross course, you wouldn't feel it. The tall UBJ's do increase bumpsteer and I think it is more important to improve bumpsteer than camber gain on a street car.

Would an ATS Spindle do essentially same thing maybe another addition to option 1. I know not very cost effective but its a spindle you can do alot with.

[David Pozzi]

Option 1 was meant to be a low cost option. The ATS spindle is excellent, with lighter weight, stiff bearing for reduced brake knock back, & taller for better geometry with a little drop, I think drop is 7/8". The tru turn isn't made for it, but tru turn likely has less bumpsterr than stock linkage does.