8.8" Mustang Rear For 69 Camaro

[AU Doc]

I'm in the process or sorting out my driveline and a major weak link is the current 8.2" 10 bolt. I'd rather not spend ~$2500 for a new 9" or 12 bolt, so I'm looking for alternatives. One of the members here pointed me to the Ford 8.8"s, which is a brilliant idea! I've been searching and found bits and pieces of info on this swap here and there, but I'm having a hard time deciding on which diff I should settle on. There are two major options:

Explorer 8.8
Pros -
31 spline axles
Disc brakes
Most have Traction-Lok
59.5" - only 1/2" shorter than stock

Cons -
The pinion is offset by 2" - This sounds serious, but I'm not sure.

Approximate Cost:
Rear = $500 (This is s just a ballpark for now)
Narrowing = $600
Axle - ? Will need one more axle
Gears = $160

Total = +$1,260

Mustang (SN 95) 8.8
Pros -
Centered pinion
Disc brakes - the reason for choosing the SN 95 model
59.25" (after swap to fox-length axles) - 3/4" shorter than the stock 60" width

Cons -
Requires axle and carrier swap to upgrade to 31 spline axles

Approximate Cost
Rear = $500
Axles = $260
Carrier = $260
Gears = $160

Total = $1,180

So my question is, is the 2" offset in the explorer rear a problem? I assume the explorer rear would need to be narrowed, or possibly swap the short tube and axle from a spare rear onto the explorer rear going into my car (I think I'd end up with a 2.5" narrower rear). Is a centered pinion what I need for my camaro?

I'm hesitant to weld axles tubes, and would probably have to find a chassis shop around here to handle that. Spring perches and the like I think I can handle. That's the reason the Mustang rear seems more appealing to me even though the axles and carrier would need to be replaced. These things are cheap to work on, and I think I could still do the Mustang swap for around $1000. I'm not sure what the cost of having the Explorer rear converted would be.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Updated to include a price for having the Explorer rear narrowed (long end cut-down).

[AU Doc]

It looks like the options are pretty close to the same cost if I have to pay someone to narrow the Explorer rear. This is just one quote from a local chassis shop. I think this would put the advantage in the SN 95 rear's corner since I would be sporting new axles and carrier and wouldn't have to have the Explorer axles drilled for chevy bolt pattern.

[Craig510]

What gear ratio are you after? Most explorers have 3.73s. If you pull it yourself you can swap in an extra passenger axle at the junk yard. The caliper will hold it in place. Make sure to get the drive shaft and parking brake cables. I have one in my Falcon. Was way low buck as I shortened it myself but now that I have gotten more into racing a full floating ford 9" would have been a better choice.

[AU Doc]

I'd like to have a 4.10. I understand some of the explorers came with them, but I'm not sure what the odds are of finding one.

So I assume centering the pinion up is necessary? I think the factory pinion is about 1/2" shifted over. I can't imagine that would make much difference considering the assembly tolerances on these cars.

[AU Doc]

Or I could buy a 9" from Quick Performance for ~$1800, and that includes an Eaton Truetrac and 31 spline axles. Brakes would another $300 or so. Not quite a like-for-like comparison, but about $2,200 for all new/reconditioned 9" compared to $1,200 for an 8.8 with a mix of new and old parts.

[AMC Racer]

Are you planning to track the car, drag race or just street use with street tires? How much power/torque is engine making? Budget option would be a ring & pinion swap in the 10 bolt and, assuming still drums, just rebuild them and maybe fit better shoes like Porterfield R4-S then save for a later upgrade.

The 2" offset in the Explorer rear may cause driveshaft clearance issues and not ideal, but u-joints will still work ok if you consider the compound angle when setting up your pinion angle.

Quick Performance circle track 9" floater with 31 spline axles, 4.75" bolt pattern, vented brake rotors is $650 ... $779 including calipers, brackets, pads and perches. Add a new or used 9" centre section and done. Add mechanical calipers if you need a parking brake. Check with them if they have a 1/2" stud option if needed for your wheels and check snout pilot diameter (Moser, Coleman and others have smaller snout, 1/2" stud options).
http://www.quickperformance.com/Bare-Full-Floating-9-Inch-Housing-Axle-Hub-Rotor-Package_p_65.html

A floater is a better option if planning to track the car than a heavy c-clip 8.8 Explorer rear with solid rotors ... especially if considering future brake upgrades to a fixed caliper. Moser DBP, Coleman IMCA, Speedway ModLite, etc. are a few of many other 9" floater options. Long term better plan if you don't mind a 9" under your Camaro.

[AU Doc]

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback!

i feel like I'm missing something important with regard to that floating rear. That seems like it would be the cheapest way to go by far, so I'm thinking I must be overlooking something. I'm not familiar with floating rears, so I'm not sure what the tradeoffs are. I have no issue with running a Ford rear, but I am concerned with long-term durability and availability of maintenance parts.

What's the disadvantage of a full floating rear? Why doesn't everyone opt for the route you linked to?

[AMC Racer]

The Quick Performance link above was to their standard centred pinion stock car style floater. Add cost to weld on the perches and caliper brackets (or get bolt-on brackets). The drive flange snout pilot diameter is typically 3.06" to suit most circle track wheels and with 5/8" wheel mounting studs. Most stock wheels won't fit. Some can supply 1/2" studs and a smaller pilot diameter snout (Speedway Modlite, Moser DBP, Coleman IMCA), but may still have clearance issues to your centre caps needing a narrower housing and wheel spacers and will cost a bit more. A custom order housing width/pinion offset will cost a bit more than the standard housings.

The calipers they include with their brake option are likely cast iron GM calipers - as typically used in the lower levels of circle track racing. Pads may be a race compound not suited for street... but you can get just about any pad compound and lots of fixed or floating caliper options that work with standard brackets. Best to call them to see what they offer. Browse any circle track catalogue and you'll find tons of economical rotor, caliper and bracket options, compared to most of the typical Pro-Touring type stuff. Simplest parking brake would be to use 0.81" wide rotors and Wilwood MC4 or similar mechanical calipers and make a bracket and cables to suit.

If you don't mind the 15" wheel look I'd go with the 5/8" studs and buy DOT approved circle track wheels (Bassett wheel) and DOT tires for street use (BF Goodrich Radial T/As, Mickey Thompson Sportsman SRs, drag radials, Avons, etc) then fit another set of non-DOT track wheels (lighter than the DOT wheels) and race tires for track use. Much more economical brake and wheel options than with aluminum 18s, 19s or similar and the 14" rotors and powder-coated calipers favoured by the Pro-Touring crowd ... but doesn't have the Pro-Touring look that most are after. 12.19" x 1.25" front rotors / 11.75" x 0.81" rear with GM-style, GN6R, FSLI or similar calipers in 15" wheels would work well for most applications for comparatively low cost.

Floater replacement parts will be around as long as there are stock cars, e.g. Moser floater 31 spline alloy axle shaft = $89 and guaranteed for life. If you are drag racing or road racing with a high powered car that needs more than a 31 spline carrier, you will need something more substantial (and expensive) than a standard circle track floater. A 35 spline flanged axle may then be a better option, particularly for drag use.

[AU Doc]

I talked to QP and they were pretty clear that the floater linked would not survive on pavement, much less a street car. They did quote me a price to put one together, but it's a lot more than I'd like to spend. Back to the drawing board :)

[AU Doc]

I've changed my mind about what I'll do for a rear more times than I can count at this point. For now, I'm going to start looking around for a 94-98 mustang 8.8. The housing is just a little narrower than my Camaro rear. I'm hoping I can find an explorer 31 spline trac-lok at the same time for cheap as well. The only additional parts I'll need are a set of shorter Fox Body Mustang axles and some spring perches. I can swap the disc brakes end for end to make the shorter axles work in the SN95 housing by modifying the mounting bracket.

If I can find a rear cheap enough and get all this done for less than $1000 I think it makes sense to go this route. We'll just have to see what I turn up in the junk yards around here.

[Josue]

Have you ever looked into the 8.5 10 bolt rear ends from 72-75 Novas? They're a direct bolt in swap, almost as strong as a 12 bolt, and can usually be found fairly easily and cheap since they put them in a TON of cars during those years.

I looked into the Explorer axle swap, but WOW does that seem like a ton of work/running around just to fit a rear end! I paid $100 for 2 open 8.5 10 bolt rear ends from a guy on Craigslist who just wanted them out of his shed, one with the 3.08 that I wanted, and one with 2.73's. Sold the 2.73 rear end for $150, cleaned up the 3.08 rear end, did a super cheap LS1 disc brake swap, conversion u-joint, and threw it in my car. Even after I pay around $700 for a posi unit and installation, i'll have under $1000 in a strong rear end that didn't require all that fab work.

Unless you needed a custom width rear end for tire fitment or something, in which case disregard this post. Haha

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Did qp say why the floater in the link would not hold up? It would be the same as any other floater they make I would guess.

[AU Doc]

I've been looking for a Nova 8.5", but haven't found one. The salvage yards in the area that used to have old stuff have been been picked clean and the other salvage yards don't keep old cars. I'm having a hard time finding late 90's stuff. No luck on CL either, but I've been looking. I'd much rather use a bolt in 8.5" than have to deal with all the fab on an 8.8", but I can't find one.

QP said the hubs and bearings aren't designed for highway speeds and are generally undersized for street applications. They quoted a rear for me setup for a PT application and it was well over $3k.

[Josue]

Heh...sounds like the same thing that happened to me! When I was researching rear ends, everyone kept pumping up the 8.5 10 bolts and how many of them are out there....but I don't think it's a "well kept" secret anymore, because it took me over 6 months to find one that I could settle on!

It was mostly me though, I DID find some, but they were either open, the wrong gear set, or both. I was waiting for my "unicorn" with 3.08 POSI. I ended up settling on the 3.08 open because it was a great deal and I was tired of searching. I even considered 2nd gen 8.5 10 bolts, after finding a few with 3.08 POSI, but decided against them because I wanted the narrower Nova 10 bolt (1" narrower than my BOP 8.2) and they required the perches to be moved.

A tip for you, maybe throw a wanted ad on craigslist. I did, and got a freaking TON of people hitting me up! At least a few messages a week for almost 2 months. There ARE a ton of these sitting around out there, they're just not being advertised. I finally got a call from a guy who had them just sitting in the back of a shed in gravel for years and years, underneath some transmissions. He wasn't using them, but saw my ad and offered them up to me. It was actually just the one, but we couldn't verify either rear end due to some pitting where the ID tag is, and we couldn't get the drums to spin so I could pop the cover off and count the gears to verify that way, so we just settled on $100 for both and I'd take my chances. Worked out nicely, because I got my rear end AND $50 in my pocket after selling the one I didn't need for $150. haha

[AU Doc]

The CL add was a great idea! I've gotten a couple replies. That said, I'm thinking about getting a new 9" from quick performance with a factory style center. Then swap on my drum brakes. That rings up at around $1400. As horsepower goes up I can swap in a new nodular center section.

[AU Doc]

Grumble, grumble.... My cart didn't have a carrier. That brings the total to ~$1700.

So far I haven't been able to find a used alternative for less than $1000 once I get a posi and axles. That's what's making this decision tough for me. It's right at that level where it's hard o justify going used when the cost differential is not that high for new.

[Josue]

Yea, if you don't have the time to wait for just the right used rear end to come along, then at least new doesn't cost too much more.

I had all fall and winter long before really needing my 10 bolt, so I had no problem waiting. I was also trying to be as cheap as possible. haha

[camarodude87]

any updates?

[Artisan Motoworks Club]

i am doing this right now in my nova. Bought a 2001 exsplorer 8.8 with 31 spline 3:55 posi(3:73 available) for $150 with 40k. i bought ford torino big bearing ends for it ($80). i am going to cut the long side 3 inches shorter and make it 56.5 total width. I will be buying either moser or qp axles for under $400. i will be doing the narrowing myself. Because of the ford 9" ends i will be using kore3 brackets($100)and 05 ctsv calipers ($200)and 2010 camaro rotors($125).
I Have a built QP 9" with a locker and all the goodies.. spent 3 times this. I have built a 8.8 before for another project and redrilled the axles and factory rear rotors. With a girdle i was under $275 for a complete rear. I have paid as low as $20 and high as $40 for a used axle.

[parsonsj]

The best part of the 8.8 swap is that you can use Ford gearsets that don't whine like aftermarket 9" gears.

[Wall]

I'm doing this right now with a 8.8 out of a 2002 Mustang GT. If I could do it over again I would get an explorer 8.8 rear instead.

[AU Doc]

Sorry, guys. I missed the posts here.

No, no updates here. I've had some trouble finding a used 8.8 that I liked. I've been pretty close to just biting the bullet and buying new a few times. Just about every thing I've come up with put me at over 1/2 the price of new and required a lot more work. Most of that was due to having trouble finding a usable rear to begin with.

I was also told the Explorer brakes can be a headache when mixed with other fronts. I don't remember the details, but something about the swept area and volume causing trouble during high braking/panic stops.

[Wall]

Looking at your first post you list the sn95 axle housing as 59.25 inches but from what I found the fox body housing is 59.25 and the 94-98 sn95 is 60.75 in. I went with the 99-04 GT axle and it was 62.5 inches from WMS to WMS. I cut 3 inches out of each side and ordered custom length axles from Moser. You should be able to find 8.8's out of GTs pretty easy on craiglist, that's where I found mine. You could do the explorer axle much cheaper though, I haven't heard about the brake issue so not sure about that.

Here's what I have invested in my setup:

Used 02 GT 8.8 with 28 spline axles, 3.27 gears, trac lok, and disc brakes ($325) used

New Ford 31 spline trac lok (upgraded due to chipped spider gear on 28 spline unit) ($229 shipped)

New Moser custom length 31 spline street axles ($345 shipped)

New bearings and seals (approx $50)

[Artisan Motoworks Club]

i bought a 2001 8.8 with 40k miles . 59.5 width ,31 spline, posi 3:55 $150.00
9" ford housing ends $80
custom axles $400 with bearings drilled 5x4.75
because of the ford big bearing ends i am running kore3 brackets and ctsv brembro rear calipers and 2010 camaro rear rotors $400 for used rear calipers and new rotors.
i am going 56 inch rotor to rotor and running dse mini tubs. For a little over $1000.00 is cheap for a complete rear. weld the tubes, ARP main caps studs and a girdle and you have a stout rear end. We did the narrowing but very easy job.
I have almost $3500 into my QP 9" that was custom built for my 66 skylark.