'69 Camaro Suspension Advice - Comfort #1, Performance #2

[AU Doc]

I'm looking for advice on a suspension setup for a '69 camaro that will give me the comfort and ride quality of a late model as well as improve the overall handling.

I'm trying to figure out where my money will be best spent to get the most bang for my buck. After a call to DSE, I think the Front Speed Kit 2 is probably in the ballpark of what I'm looking for, but out back I'm not sure. I'm planning to mini-tub the car, but I don't know if upgraded leafs and shocks is enough or if it's worth another $1,500 - $2,000 to go with a quadralink. As much as I would like to spend every day at the track, the reality is I'll be lucky to have a track day once a year (and the probably more like when my kids get out of college). So I need to focus on making the car comfortable and handle well on the street.

I'd love to hear some suggestions on where to go with the suspension on this car!



-Paul

[anthonys 69]

I cant tell you what is best for the buck, or the best handling, but I can tell what I have done. I'm also on a budget. I did all the welding my self so that helped keep the price down , I mini tubed the rear of my 69 Camaro ,and went with Detroit speeds Quadra link non adjustable rear coil overs. I wanted to put a large tire on the front, so I went with ride tec's complete front system single adjustable coil overs. my project isn't complete so I cant even tell you how good or bad it is. I do believe that who ever you diced to go with get the complete system so you know all the components will work together. good luck

[AU Doc]

It's a tough question because it's so subjective. For some, anything short of losing fillings is a good riding car. However, I'm more looking for something I can hop in and drive four hours one way without being beat up when I get there. Most of the components seem to be geared more towards track performance, so I'm having a tough time finding out how they perform as a daily driver suspension.

[Rod]

ahhhh... the age old question "how can I have it all" so the key here is, having the ability to tune or to learn to tune .....even the great GM hasnt been able to crack that one, thats why its either you have a caddy or a corvette and then with a push of the button on those cars the shocks stiffen the exhaust opens and the timing and fuel feed changes ahd you have sport mode!........

I personally would drop the mini tub idea, have you priced that install yet? and for a crusier/once a year track car its not needed if you go DSE then yes I would add the Quadralink, if you go Ridetech I would do their fourlink, if you go Speedtech I would add their torque arm....ok ....so what im saying here is do whoevers suspension as a kit or complete set up, and buy the most adjustable shock you can afford, (do not buy a non adjustable shock) the adjustabilty of the shock will determin the ride quality ....every thing else just connects pivot points or suspends the car....if you cant afford a high end JRI shock to go on the car then look at Ridetechs shocks and if those are out of your range for top of the line adjustability look at Vikings double adjustables....but DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON THE SHOCK, no no no

I have raced my own car for 6 years at events all over the US and its still not tubbed, I have 10inch rims front and back

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/07/051optimaultimatestreetcar1968camaro_zps-1.jpg

[Jody SS]

What engine are you using? What size and kind of tires? Maybe stock suspension would work fine. You can't go wrong with Detroit Speed, Ride Tech or Speed Tech. Some suspensions require brake upgrades, which also increases the budget.

[Jody SS]

Rod has excellent advice here, for sure!!

[AU Doc]

Good points all around!

It's interesting you suggested skipping the mini-tubs. I've been mulling that over since last night. I'm not sure how steam rollers in the back will affect the ride.

Since ride quality is such an important factor for me, should I be looking for a suspension with the most travel? That way I can soften things up and not worry about hitting the stops? Is that even an option in these suspension systems?

The plan for the car is wheels+tires+Disc brakes, AC, T56, suspension, then an LS3. That's roughly the order I'm planning to do the mods with the fuel injected V8 being the least important to making the car safe and comfortable to drive.

Edit: wheels and tires are only a priority because I'll need to make space for the brakes.

[CliffsBlueCamaro]

I have raced my own car for 6 years at events all over the US and its still not tubbed, I have 10inch rims front and back

I don't mean to derail the thread, but Rod are those the 18x10 ET21 XXR 552's? Those have been on my list of possibilities lately...lol

I do totally agree on skipping the mini-tub. I always wanted fat 335's, but after getting labor quotes for the install - I think 275s will work just fine for my cruiser/occasional racer too.

[ccmc]

Just some thoughts from someone that's driving a 1969 daily and putting about 15k miles a year on my car for the last 4 years. Including driving it 600 miles one way in 9 hours to visit family four times.

Suspension and seats.

The first time I drove to Idaho from California I still had a stock suspension and stock seats. Wow that bounced me around!

The next trip I had 4th gen seats and Hotchkiss upper control arms and lowering springs front and back with edelbrock IAS shocks. Much better ride but a bit stiff and no lumbar support.

By the third trip I had BMW e46 seats. This made a huge difference in comfort. But my ride was still to firm on rough roads so i replaced the shocks with Monroe gas-adjust shocks. This is what I'm currently running with 17 inch wheels, 245-45/17 front and 275-40/17 rear tires.

On smooth roads its a joy to drive, but I still have bump steer issues and it's a touch to harsh on rough California roads.

I would compare the ride to being a little firmer than a 350z or G35 coupe. It's not as smooth as a BMW 3 series.

I'm considering the ridetech true turn and a torque arm rear with adjustable shocks as my next transition.

Rick

[AU Doc]

Awesome!! This is great feedback!

Ok, so I need to add seats as a high priority. I'm not sure why, but that actually hadn't occurred to me.

Next, sounds like good (great?) shocks make a huge difference as well.

Is there a particular suspension system that offers more travel and a softer ride that can be stiffened up for a track day?

Also, I've been planning to go with 18" wheels. Will there be a noticeable improvement in ride quality if I go with a 17" wheel instead?

[Rod]

I don't mean to derail the thread, but Rod are those the 18x10 ET21 XXR 552's? Those have been on my list of possibilities lately...lol



yes sir

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/09/13412186_10154312315746522_8727411022455-1.jpg

[Rod]

wheels+tires+Disc brakes, AC, T56, suspension, then an LS3. That's roughly the order I'm planning to do the mods with the fuel injected V8 being the least important to making the car safe and comfortable to drive.


order change

Suspension,
wheels/tires,
brakes,
steering box,
seats, trans,
engine/fuel managment ...and why.........
suspension will allow wider/taller wheels...so then the wheels will allow bigger brakes...and the bigger wheels need a better steering box.....and now with all that suspension, awesome wheels and fast ratio steering now you need seats to hold your butt in place and so on

[CliffsBlueCamaro]

yes sir

Very nice! I always remembered your car with the MB Old Schools. The 552's look fantastic, and 10" wide on all four corners is just plain wicked. Thanks for the pic!

[camarodude87]

Will be following your choice. I am in the same boat. Minus the LS motor. I have stock suspension that has been lowered. Man is it harsh as hell. Rod makes some great points. I value this mans opinion!

[AU Doc]

Sweet! Glad to know I'm not alone! Misery loves company I guess ?

From what I've been reading over the past couple days, it's sounding like unless I'm intending to race, then the stock suspension can do great for a comfortable street car that handles very well. This is what I'm thinking at the moment.

For ride height adjustment I'm leaning towards coil overs on the front. For the back, 2" drop leafs.

I'm considering a bit softer springs at both ends, but I'll need to read up on that some more.

To help with suspension geometry I'm leaning towards a taller upper ball joint or maybe the GMod. The former I think is preferred over the latter.

Sway bars front and rear to help with body roll.

Finally, the shocks are shaping up to be one of the more critical choices. If I can find a good shock that's setup for comfortable street driving, I'll go with that. Otherwise, I'm going to find a good adjustable shock.

The thing that worries me most about this is the rear suspension. Going with drop leafs limits the suspension travel. DSE said 3" drop would give a pretty rough ride, and recommended the 2" for a street car. I'm thinking I'll go with the 2" drop to begin with and if it's not comfortable then I'll have to look into a four link.

[AU Doc]

And now I've discovered SC&C. Coil overs may not be necessary either :)

[HandOverFist]

Not all coil springs are created equal...RideTech's are progressive rate and will make a ton of difference on the street while allowing for some spirited driving when one elects. LS1 brakes for the front is easily accomplished for that car and a cost effective upgrade.

[Rod]

And now I've discovered SC&C. Coil overs may not be necessary either :)

:hand:

[AU Doc]

I know, I know!

Being an engineer, this sort of decision is tough for me because I feel like I have to have ALL of the information in order to decide. Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to read and understand even part of what's available. That's why I come begging at the feet of the masters here on the forums :)

BTW, Rod, for some reason the pictures you've posted haven't been showing up in the mobile app on my phone. I love your car! I'm about to go snooping around in your threads to get the details about your wheel/tire and suspension setups now :)

[Rod]

I know, I know!

Being an engineer, this sort of decision is tough for me because I feel like I have to have ALL of the information in order to decide. Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to read and understand even part of what's available. That's why I come begging at the feet of the masters here on the forums :)

BTW, Rod, for some reason the pictures you've posted haven't been showing up in the mobile app on my phone. I love your car! I'm about to go snooping around in your threads to get the details about your wheel/tire and suspension setups now :)

its not all up there so if you have any questions just ask, I used to work at a speed shop in California and before that I was in the camaro Restoration industry for 10 years, I spent many phone calls and shipments sending original parts back and forth to companies like Classic indutries and Ricks first generation, to have them replicated as close as possible to factory, I was a Hotchkis Team racer for a few years and then was sponsored by Ridetech, along with a few other companies I have been lucky enough to autocross at very high levels with great friends and have had Sam Strano, Mary Pozzi, Mike "Juinor" Johnson and a few other greats that will be miffed that I didnt mention them as driving instuctors, I managed a high end Camaro collection in Nashville TN for a while and just decide (this year) to stop working in the car biz for a while and just enjoy it as a hobby now....I dont now how long that will last....seeing how I have already started designing some suspension parts for another company on the side, but it has been fun to step away for a while, so if you have any questions ...ask

[AU Doc]

Awesome! I appreciate the opportunity to ask someone with your experience questions!

I'm interested to know the details on your wheel size, back spacing, and tire sizes. Also, any details you're willing to share about the suspension would be great as well. I'm sure there's a pretty big difference in your race suspension and what I want to do, but the more I understand about suspension design the better I'm equipped to make a decision.

Oh, and I took your advice on how to build a $35k car for $50k (the article on your website). I'm buying a running car with 4-wheel drums and a decent interior that has documented bodywork and a three week old paint job for surprisingly close to what you mentioned in your article. The way I see it, I'm buying the car for the straight body and paint. Everything else is just a bonus!

[Josh@Ridetech]

Not all coil springs are created equal...RideTech's are progressive rate and will make a ton of difference on the street while allowing for some spirited driving when one elects. LS1 brakes for the front is easily accomplished for that car and a cost effective upgrade.

Our coilover coil springs our actually linear, not progressive. The spring rate will stay the same throughout the amount of preload you put into it, not become stiffer like a progressive rate would.

The springs that come with our StreetGrip kits are a dual-rate spring. While cruising on a straight stretch of road, the lower portion of the spring is being used, allowing a nice smooth ride. When you dive it into a corner, it will start to compress the upper coils are being engaged and stiffens the rate, making the car sit flat so it corners better.

[camarodude87]

Any updates? Are you outer wheel wells in good shape? Mine are rusted so that is why I want to mini tub. Going with the ridetech stage 2 kit whenever the new year sale or Christmas sale comes up.

[AU Doc]

I missed that last post. A bit of an update. I ordered an SC&C touring kit a few weeks ago. Up front I'm going with Upper and lower control arms, tall upper ball joints, global west springs, double adjustable shocks, sway bar, solid body bushings, and a new Lee fast ratio steering box. Out back it's new leafs, double adjustable shocks, global west bushings, and a sway bar.

The car has the original 50,000 mile suspension under it now, and it actually rides a lot better than I remember them riding. The steering response is horrible, some crazy combination of sluggish and twitchy that's hard to explain. So I'm really looking forward to the steering box. The car also wants to roll about a bit, so I'm hoping to get that cleared up as well with the new parts.

Everything has been on backirder, but my order should be shipping pretty soon. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.

I also picked up a relatively inexpensive front disc brake conversion from Matts classic bow ties. When I get around to upgrading wheels and tires I'll go with bigger brakes all around, but some discs up front are necessary now if I'm going to drive it much.

[camuchi]

any update on your camaro Doc?

[Rod]

I missed that last post. A bit of an update. I ordered an SC&C touring kit a few weeks ago. Up front I'm going with Upper and lower control arms, tall upper ball joints, global west springs, double adjustable shocks, sway bar, solid body bushings, and a new Lee fast ratio steering box. Out back it's new leafs, double adjustable shocks, global west bushings, and a sway bar.

The car has the original 50,000 mile suspension under it now, and it actually rides a lot better than I remember them riding. The steering response is horrible, some crazy combination of sluggish and twitchy that's hard to explain. So I'm really looking forward to the steering box. The car also wants to roll about a bit, so I'm hoping to get that cleared up as well with the new parts.

Everything has been on backirder, but my order should be shipping pretty soon. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.

I also picked up a relatively inexpensive front disc brake conversion from Matts classic bow ties. When I get around to upgrading wheels and tires I'll go with bigger brakes all around, but some discs up front are necessary now if I'm going to drive it much.

interested in all the parts and what he thinks, like what shocks? what sway bar? Lee isn't in business anymore...curious about that,,,and so on

[H20cooled]

interested in all the parts and what he thinks, like what shocks? what sway bar? Lee isn't in business anymore...curious about that,,,and so on

Rod- Actually Lee is back now, they have a website http://leepowersteering.com/ I sent my setup to them and they did a great job on it.

Rich

[pitts64]

If it were me, I'd swap the sub frame to the 70 up front steer.. After owning both, I think front steer linkage is better then rear steer and so did GM.. All I really had to do to my 69 El Camino was swap the front upper control arms from side to side and swap the big school bus steering wheel to a 13"... Having 10 degrees of positive caster @ 0 static camber is like a dream come true..

[ccmc]

That's an a body, it doesn't work for an f body. I'm sure a few people have considered swapping a second gen subframe into a first gen F body and I haven't found anyone that has actually done it.

Rick

[AU Doc]

We're getting close! I've got the suspension under the car, the front discs on it, new brake lines, MC, and booster. I need to get the brakes bled (that's going to be a pain!) and then swap out the steering gear, pitman arm, drag link, and tie rods. I think I can get that last bit done while the brakes are gravity bleeding. I just have to find an afternoon to work on it!

I'll keep you guys posted on the results.

[AU Doc]

interested in all the parts and what he thinks, like what shocks? what sway bar? Lee isn't in business anymore...curious about that,,,and so on


I don't know why I didn't get a notification that this thread had posts. Sorry I didn't see your reply!

To answer your question, I went with the double adjustable varishocks, global west springs front and rear, Global West rear leaf spring Del-A-Lum bushing and shackle kit, SPC upper and lower A-arms with tall ball joints, Hellwig tubular sway bars - 1 1/8" front and 3/4" adjustable rate rear, and the 12:1 Lee box.

I did get to drive the car about 5 miles after putting the shocks, springs, and Del-A-Lum bushings in the rear. Even just a slow cruise I could tell a HUGE improvement in the feel in the rear. Even without the rear sway bar there is much less body roll. It made for an interesting feel with the factory front suspension and the upgraded rear.

[rlodad]

Great Advice Rodney! Couldn't agree more.