Something wrong with DSE rack!!

[badazz81z28]

I was looking under my car looking for a shim in the spindle and noticed that the whole inner wheel lip all messed up!

i checked the steering, each side is showing 2.250" of threads, but on full lock turning right it hits the frame. Turn all the way to the left and the other side has tons of room. I tried to offset the adjustment (2" on one side and 2.50" on the other) ok after adjustment but after a few turns its hitting the frame again. It seems to me a inner lock in the rack itself is not working....help! Is the car safe to drive? It already destroyed one of my forgeline wheels!!!!!

[Alponcho]

Weren't you having problems with the steering shaft/coupler? Did you get that straightened out? Maybe the problems are related somehow,

[badazz81z28]

This seems to be more a steering travel issue. I have plenty of clearence on the driver side at full lock, on the passenger side it hits the lower control arm

[andrewb70]

What does DSE say?

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

Off the top of their head, haven't heard of the issue before. I sent them pictures and a description of the problem. I just don't think their is enough thread engagement on the tie-rod to adjust it out, but even so the little I tried to do still allows it to go that far.

The Forgeline wheel is pretty eff'd up!

[icemanrd19]

post some pictures.

[Z06vet]

It sounds like the rack wasnt centered before you slid on the steering shaft. A small movement in the rack will turn the splined shaft quite a bit. With the steering wheel centered, count how many turns to lock to the left, and then how many turns to the right. If its not the same on each side, the rack is not centered. I hope this helps, unless I'm not understanding your issue.

[badazz81z28]

It sounds like the rack wasnt centered before you slid on the steering shaft. A small movement in the rack will turn the splined shaft quite a bit. With the steering wheel centered, count how many turns to lock to the left, and then how many turns to the right. If its not the same on each side, the rack is not centered. I hope this helps, unless I'm not understanding your issue.

The only thing the steering shaft would impact would be the steering wheel orientation. At the rack itself, its even. Now the question is, is the rack on the frame even?

[andrewb70]

....Now the question is, is the rack on the frame even?

I think the previous post was asking just that.

Andrew

[Z06vet]

Count the turns of your steering wheel lock to lock to the right & left. The splines will affect it... If you have say 1.75 turns one way & 2.25 turns the other, you'll need to remove the steering coupler from the rack and rotate the output shaft a full turn to the short side. Then reinstall. its been almost 2 years since I installed my dse frame. Does the output shaft have a D or index on the spline? I cant remember. I just went thru this on my 67 when I swapped in my old wayne due subframe.

[thumper877]

Off the top of their head, haven't heard of the issue before. I sent them pictures and a description of the problem. I just don't think their is enough thread engagement on the tie-rod to adjust it out, but even so the little I tried to do still allows it to go that far.

The Forgeline wheel is pretty eff'd up! that's funny that DSE said they have never heard of it because my car does the exact same thing. Haven't started to drive the car yet so haven't tore up anything. Interested to see some ideas to correct this

[badazz81z28]

Count the turns of your steering wheel lock to lock to the right & left. The splines will affect it... If you have say 1.75 turns one way & 2.25 turns the other, you'll need to remove the steering coupler from the rack and rotate the output shaft a full turn to the short side. Then reinstall. its been almost 2 years since I installed my dse frame. Does the output shaft have a D or index on the spline? I cant remember. I just went thru this on my 67 when I swapped in my old wayne due subframe.


I'm not following you. The steering wheel and the column are free spinning. The rack will only turn so much one way and so much the other way regardless of orientation of the wheel.


As for the rack...By looking at the rack, the mounting appears to be more towards the driver side. I'm interested to see what DSE says because they told me the tie Rod has 6" of thread, just checked....it's like 4"

[TheJDMan]

I'm not following you. The steering wheel and the column are free spinning. The rack will only turn so much one way and so much the other way regardless of orientation of the wheel.

As for the rack...By looking at the rack, the mounting appears to be more towards the driver side. I'm interested to see what DSE says because they told me the tie Rod has 6" of thread, just checked....it's like 4"

The DSE rack mount is asymmetrical in the DSE subframe so ignore that, it's not the problem. Next, forget about the steering column for a minute (we all know it spins freely but it still has a center position) and lets concentrate on the rack movement. Now presumably, you currently have the column attached to the rack input shaft so lets use the steering wheel to carefully count the total number of rack turns from full left lock to full right lock ignoring the steering wheel orientation for the moment. Once you know the exact number of steering wheel turns from lock to lock, turn the steering back to exactly 1/2 the total turns and your rack is now centered in its travel range. With the rack now centered, look at the steering wheel orientation. If the wheel is off center your steering shaft coupling splines are off and the couplings will need to be adjusted accordingly to center the steering wheel relative to the rack center. You also need to make sure the column is oriented correctly to cancel the turn signals. I have seen columns installed 180 degrees off and they wondered why the signals would not cancel. Once you have the column centered relative to the rack center then you can move on to adjust your toe settings again with the rack centered.

Once you have the steering column centered with the rack center and the toe set, we can move on to discuss installing rack travel stops so your wheels don't contact the LCAs.

[badazz81z28]

With the wheels straight foward, I get 1-1/2 turns turning left and slightly more turning right. Ignoring the steering wheel, with the rack centered, I tried to adjust toe on the driver side and it's affecting the travel.

It's weird, I can adjust the passenger side tie rod to get the travel where it doesn't hit the control arm or the sway bar spline area. I go to the driver side to take out what I put in on the other side and it messes with the passenger side. I don't get it.....

[badazz81z28]

I just pulled up the frame instructions and the 2-1/4 threads is what they call for. So I'm really thinking it's got something to do with travel stops on the track.

[MuscleRodz]

Counter the turns in the rack each direction and center the rack, then look and see where your wheels are. I bet they aren't centered.

[badazz81z28]

Counter the turns in the rack each direction and center the rack, then look and see where your wheels are. I bet they aren't centered.


come again? The wheels are both straight and the tie rods are exactly even

I know the right turn is going too far. The rack side tie rod pulls so far out of the rack the boot pops off the groove.

[TheJDMan]

You're not paying attention! EVERY ADJUSTMENT STARTS WITH THE RACK CENTERED. By your own statement "with the wheels straight you have 1 1/2 turns left and slightly more to the right". WRONG! With the rack centered, then you adjust your toe so the wheels are straight and the steering wheel is centered. Stop measuring the tie rod threads and center the rack first! You don't have a travel stop issue, you simply have not centered the rack before making your adjustments. I have been through all this with my DSE sub. Once you have equal steering travel left and right then you can add travel stops if necessary.

[badazz81z28]

You're not paying attention! EVERY ADJUSTMENT STARTS WITH THE RACK CENTERED. By your own statement "with the wheels straight you have 1 1/2 turns left and slightly more to the right". WRONG! With the rack centered, then you need to adjust your toe so the wheels are straight and the steering wheel is centered. Stop measuring the D*** tie rod threads and center the rack first! You don't have a travel stop issue, you have not centered the rack before making your adjustments.


I did that. What I'm telling you is even after you do that it will keep going until the the wheel hits the frame.

[badazz81z28]

I don't think some fully understand without seeing it. Even if you center the rack, adjust the tires to be straight again, you turn lock right and it will still hit acting as the steering stop

[dontlifttoshift]

Are you driving the car? If so, I assume it has been aligned, if not see below.

Measure the toe in/out for us. It doesn't have to be fancy, point the wheels straight and pick a spot on the tire tread to measure from, front and rear.

[badazz81z28]

Yes, its been aligned. Now that I'm in Vegas I'm gonna have it done again. I planned to do it after I installed the Baer Brakes and that's when I noticed the wheel was rubbing and acting as a steering stop.

[rchaskin]

I don't think some fully understand without seeing it. Even if you center the rack, adjust the tires to be straight again, you turn lock right and it will still hit acting as the steering stop

Just a check, are the steering arms the same length?

[dhutton]

I think this is what you are talking about:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/121221-Adjusting-rack-and-pinion?highlight=

Don

[badazz81z28]

I think this is what you are talking about:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/121221-Adjusting-rack-and-pinion?highlight=

Don

Investigating this....I honestly think the C-clip limiter is not installed on one side of the rack.

[TheJDMan]

Investigating this....I honestly think the C-clip limiter is not installed on one side of the rack.

OK then pull the rubber boots loose from the body of the rack and look. It only takes a couple of minutes to see if the limiters are in place. My DSE rack had two limiters per side and I added one additional per side to keep my wheels from contacting my LCAs.

[thumper877]

Question can u put the limiter on just the one side or do u have to put it on both sides

[badazz81z28]

Just noticed the boots are metal banded on so I felt for the limiters and i could tell a limiter was there on both sides. I did observe the turning again and noticed the boot is about stretched to its max when turning right. It also goes so far the slips past the groove on the rack side tie Rod. Turning left is just fine. Anyone know what the limiters hit yo stop the rack?

DSE did not get back with me today

[badazz81z28]

Pics, can really tell you much

[badazz81z28]

More

[carbuff]

As I read this, I was thinking the limiters aren't correct. You can have any number on either side, I know I do not have the same number side to side. You can get thick and thin ones. I just added enough to keep my tires from touching the LCA.

Cut the bands and get some large wire ties. That's what I did (not a DSE, but the same basic rack). You can pull the wire ties tight enough to keep the boots from slipping off as there is a groove in the rack body that will help grab the boot.

[dhutton]

You can buy the metal bands and installation tool on eBay.

[badazz81z28]

As I read this, I was thinking the limiters aren't correct. You can have any number on either side, I know I do not have the same number side to side. You can get thick and thin ones. I just added enough to keep my tires from touching the LCA.

Cut the bands and get some large wire ties. That's what I did (not a DSE, but the same basic rack). You can pull the wire ties tight enough to keep the boots from slipping off as there is a groove in the rack body that will help grab the boot.


Do do you know of a source and the correct ones to buy?

[thumper877]

I have the part number at home I will get it for u u buy them at ford. I also was wondering hope this is not a stupid question if u want the right side to not turn as far u would put the spacer on the left side of the rack ?

[thumper877]

ford part number N804842S comes in a package of 4

[badazz81z28]

I have the part number at home I will get it for u u buy them at ford. I also was wondering hope this is not a stupid question if u want the right side to not turn as far u would put the spacer on the left side of the rack ?

Yup, its the left side limiter that prevents movement to the right. That limiter should bump into something inside the rack. The travel on the on the driver side wheel is perfect, so is the passenger really, but it just goes too far and hits the control arm.

If the DSE rack for the 70-81 Camaros needs by design a different thickness of limiters, DSE should tell me that.

The rack body itself is not centered on the frame. So the passenger side tie rod end needs to be longer to equal out. I think it is, but like I said the limiters seems wrong

[carbuff]

I don't have any part numbers handy, but there are 2 different thicknesses of these available. They are made of delrin I believe. I got some ones which were black and not solid, and they did not hold up. The other ones I've used are white and solid.

I purchased mine from a Ford aftermarket dealer out of the DFW area, but I expect you could get them from any Ford dealer.

[badazz81z28]

I don't have any part numbers handy, but there are 2 different thicknesses of these available. They are made of delrin I believe. I got some ones which were black and not solid, and they did not hold up. The other ones I've used are white and solid.

I purchased mine from a Ford aftermarket dealer out of the DFW area, but I expect you could get them from any Ford dealer.

Bryan,

What thickness did you use on either side?

[carbuff]

I honestly don't remember, it's been a couple of years. I installed shims until I didn't have any more tire rub. Unscientific, I know, but that was my purpose for installing them. I know that I have more on one side than the other. I think the rack originally has 1 in each side, and I've ended up with 2.5 - 3.5 as best I can recall (the .5 being the thinner shim).

It really was trial and error for me. I did limit my turning radius, which makes getting into my garage a 3-point event, but I was also rubbing the edge of the inner barrel on the Forgelines, so I wanted to prevent that.

Each pack of the spacers comes with 4 in it as I recall. And they are cheap. If you only have a problem on one side, then you shouldn't need more than one...

[TheJDMan]

The problem is you are measuring equal threads on the tie rods and assuming that centers the rack when in fact it does not. You are also looking at the rack mounts which are not symetrical and assuming they are wrong but that is normal with the DSE sub. The only way the rack is centered in it's travel is if you have equal movement left and right. As long as you say you have more movement right then left you are simply telling me that you do not have the rack centered. Once the rack is centered in it's travel, and it has equal travel left and right, then you can line up the column so the steering wheel is centered. I would be willing to bet money that your column is off by one spline to the left relative to the rack input shaft making the wheel look straight while in fact the rack is not actually in the center of it's travel. By setting the tie rods equal you are just adjusting to an arbitrary measurement not a correct setting. You are assuming both tie rods were machined exactly the same and that they are exactly the same length. Now you can add limiters to one side to crutch the rack back to a false center of travel but basically the column and alignment are both off and you are just limiting one side to compensate and make it look right. There is nothing wrong with the rack and there is nothing wrong with the way it is mounted in the DSE frame. The problem is you still do not have the rack centered in it's actual travel range, it's that simple. I know, I did this same thing with my rack till the light bulb suddenly went on about a year after the initial installation and I realized what I had done wrong. Once I correctly centered my rack, I then had equal wheel rub on the left and right LCA and from that point it was a simple matter to install limiters on both sides. it's frustrating because I can see exactly what you're doing because I did the exact same thing but I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

[Z06vet]

This was what I was trying to say in my earlier posts, but did not word it as well as Steve. Its at least worth spending some time double checking, as it took me making adjustments throughout a weekend before I got everything right on my old wayne due setup. I was able to get me DSE rack squared up in just one afternoon moving a spline at a time. There could still be a problem with your rack, but you can confirm it by doing what steve explained. I know you can get it sorted out.

[badazz81z28]

So do you all have even threads exposed on your set-ups? If the rack is center on the frame, the steering is centered, wouldn't the exposed threads be the same?

[TheJDMan]

So do you all have even threads exposed on your set-ups? If the rack is center on the frame, the steering is centered, wouldn't the exposed threads be the same?

Please don't assume you will end up with the same amount of thread exposed on each tie rod, you may or may not it just depends on a lot of parts that make up the entire steering system. To be honest, I never measured to see how much tie rod thread I have exposed because it's just not important. But in order to answer your question I went out to the garage and roughly measured my tie rods. One is showing 2 1/4" of thread and the other 2 3/8" and like I said it does not matter because my rack is centered and I have the same amount of travel left and right and that is what does matter. My steering column and alignment are both based on this center position of the rack. What I know to be a fact is that if you have more travel in one direction than the other your rack is not centered.

I'm not trying to be an A-hole, I'm simply trying to get you going down the right track. By trying to maintain equal tie rod threads(which is meaningless), you are setting up a false center on the rack which you then want to compensate for by installing a limiter on one end.

I would also add that I personally got very little help from the DSE phone tech when I was trying to figure out this same issue a few years back. I drove the car nearly 5000 miles before the light bulb when on one day and I figured out why I had a shorter turning radius one direction than the other.

[badazz81z28]

Please don't assume you will end up with the same amount of thread exposed on each tie rod, you may or may not it just depends on a lot of parts that make up the entire steering system. To be honest, I never measured to see how much tie rod thread I have exposed because it's just not important. But in order to answer your question I went out to the garage and roughly measured my tie rods. One is showing 2 1/4" of thread and the other 2 3/8" and like I said it does not matter because my rack is centered and I have the same amount of travel left and right and that is what does matter. My steering column and alignment are both based on this center position of the rack. What I know to be a fact is that if you have more travel in one direction than the other your rack is not centered.

I'm not trying to be an A-hole, I'm simply trying to get you going down the right track. By trying to maintain equal tie rod threads(which is meaningless), you are setting up a false center on the rack which you then want to compensate for by installing a limiter on one end.

I would also add that I personally got very little help from the DSE phone tech when I was trying to figure out this same issue a few years back. I drove the car nearly 5000 miles before the light bulb when on one day and I figured out why I had a shorter turning radius one direction than the other.


It's not about about equal threads, but it is about an extreme difference to the point I have little thread engagement on the passenger side. I pulled both wheels off, and did the centering procedure. I have nearly 3" of exposed threads on the driver side and barely an inch on the other after adjusting. That's a far difference from your 5/16" difference. DSE set this rack and frame up. It started with 2-1/4" on each side...

[andrewb70]

Maybe you have the wrong inner tie rods...

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

Something Wacky is going on!! I drove the car yesterday after re-setting everything, straightened the steering wheel...and half way to work today and the steering wheel pops back off-set to the right and the tire is hitting the control arm again. Checked the tie-rods and they have not moved....WTH is going on! The rack is even making a little noise with turning slow.

[andrewb70]

Is the rack itself moving? I don't mean the tie rods, I mean the rack housing.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

Is the rack itself moving? I don't mean the tie rods, I mean the rack housing.

Andrew

Ill check it out tonight. I dropped it off at the Base Firestone to get the alignment done again and see what happens. I guess the lifetime purchase is worth the money,,,,

[andrewb70]

........and half way to work today and the steering wheel pops back off-set to the right and the tire is hitting the control arm again. .....

Really the only way I see that happening is if the whole rack shifted....but how is that possible? Isn't it bolted down by big bolts to the front crossmember?

Andrew

[TheJDMan]

OK now I'm completely confused. In the first post you said you had 2.250" of thread showing on each tie rod. Now suddenly you have 3" on one side and 1" on the other?

[badazz81z28]

OK now I'm completely confused. In the first post you said you had 2.250" of thread showing on each tie rod. Now suddenly you have 3" on one side and 1" on the other?


I took the wheels off and did what you said. Turned the wheels all the way from lock to lock. Got 2.5 turns. Centered it and straightened the wheels back. Thsts what I now have for threads.

[dontlifttoshift]

The idea is to get the steering wheel centered on the rack. If your tie rod measurements vary that much, your steering wheel is not centered on the rack. If you have 2.5 turns lock to lock, your rack travel is perfect and you are not missing limiters.

I usually do this with the tie rods removed from the steering arms. It takes any outside interference out of the equation. With 2.5 turns lock to lock you will have 1.25 turns from center in each direction. So with the wheel centered, 1.25 turns each way. If you have more/less on one side than the other you have two options to correct it.

1. Reclock steering linkage. The rack is 3/4-36 spline, so each tooth gets you 10 degrees of steering wheel correction. Columns vary, not sure what yours is on the firewall side.

2. You can also reclock the steering wheel/hub at the top. This only works with an aftermarket column as the oem ignition lock ring will not allow easy clocking of the turn signal canceling cam. The nipple for the horn wiring must remain at the 10:30 position for the turn signal canceling cam to work properly.

[killer69]

if you can bring the car here we will figure it out, Firestone sure won't be able to.

[andrewb70]

if you can bring the car here we will figure it out, Firestone sure won't be able to.

This^^^

Andrew

[dhutton]

Speedtech offering to help with a DSE subframe. :twothumbs That's a heck of a lot more than DSE did...

Speaks volumes about the two companies IMHO...

Don

[badazz81z28]

Well headed to Reno today, so I'll have mess with it when I get back.

[MonzaRacer]

I know with stock parts there are usually mechanical stops other than the steering box, at least I know my Monte Carlo had them and other cars have them. But when you swap in lots of other parts those mechanical parts are gone. Then you depend on internal stops. So why not make some new stops out at steering knuckle/control arm.
I know Crown Vic front end has adjustable stops, they also grind and squeak when dry.
These are used to help set the cars up for different diameter and width rims. Kind of a fail safe over the steering box and they dont have to build multiple boxes between 15in, 16in,17in wheeled cars.