Oil from breathers

[TBART70]

Hi all, I have a 548 ci. BBC, I have oil coming out of my breathers. I have a PCV system on it with a TFS catch can. I have 4 breathers on it, I have baffles in the valve covers. I still get oil. My engine builder says I need an evac system. That is going to be hard because of my serpentine system, but I have to do something. Any ideas would be great, anybody successfully use an electric system? It is a street car. Leak down less than 5% average.
Thanks, -Tom

[TheJDMan]

Pics of your PCV system may help. Surprisingly few people understand how a PCV system should work. The fact that you have multiple breathers strikes me as a problem. Typically on a SBC or BBC application you have a PCV valve in one valve cover and a single breather in the opposite valve cover. A properly designed and functioning PCV system will actually pull a very slight vacuum in the crank case. If you have too many breathers there is actually too much venting which neutralizes the effects of the PCV's crankcase evacuation action. I have an adjustable PCV valve in one valve cover and a single breather filter in the opposite valve cover and I don't get even so much as a weeping around the breather. IMO, four breathers is three too many.

[parsonsj]

What Steve said. There's no such thing as a PCV with breathers. A PCV system uses filtered air from the intake tube or air filter to feed clean air into one side of the crankcase, and uses engine vacuum to pull dirty air into the combustion chamber from the other side of the crankcase. The idea to is continually pull clean air in and combustion by-products out. Adding breathers defeats the whole purpose...

[TBART70]

On my 406 SBC I had two breathers in the front, and at the back on one side I had the old Chrysler breather with the nipple going to the Carb fitting. Never had an issue with that.

You can use a breather to feed the clean air, I know what you mean about the tube coming from the air filter, OE design on a lot of cars.

I think you are right about too many breathers, probably never creates enough vacuum in the crankcase. But at heavy throttle there is not a lot of vacuum. If I baby it not much oil, hard on it then there is. I am just surprised with all the baffles oil is coming out, it means it is being pushed out, I think. There was oil in the catch can that I drained out so during good vacuum it is pulling, when there is low vacuum it is coming out of the breathers. Not sure what to do yet.

[Zspoiler]

I run a Supercharged Small block Chevy with 15 plus pounds of boost.And it works just fine that way.Most of the times the factory type systems work very well.Remember that Chevrolet work on this system on the Factory Muscle Cars . And it worked well enough that they still use it in modified forms today.

[parsonsj]

Tom, you're right about WOT and loss of vacuum. In that case blow-by starts to create positive crankcase pressure, and crankcase air flows backwards and out the inlet.

The fix is to run two catch cans -- both sealed (no breathers there either) on both the clean and dirty sides of the PCV system. The dirty side will accumulate oil much faster, but the clean side will get some, especially as you spend more time at WOT.

An example:

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[TBART70]

I see what you mean. I was looking at similar systems online. Definitely have to redesign it.
Thanks

[LemonTwisted]

Here's a good read on PCV systems: http://www.shophemi.com/images/media/p-2273-arrington_ccv_bible.pdf

[Decline]

Pics of your PCV system may help. Surprisingly few people understand how a PCV system should work. The fact that you have multiple breathers strikes me as a problem. Typically on a SBC or BBC application you have a PCV valve in one valve cover and a single breather in the opposite valve cover. A properly designed and functioning PCV system will actually pull a very slight vacuum in the crank case. If you have too many breathers there is actually too much venting which neutralizes the PCV's crankcase evacuation action. I have an adjustable PCV valve in one valve cover and a single breather filter in the opposite valve cover and I don't get even so much as a weeping around the breather. IMO, four breathers is three too many.

Are you talking about the ME wagner pcv? I assume so since its the only one I could find. Steve, could you post a pic of your PCV setup? I did not know these existed, I will have to look into them more
http://mewagner.com/?page_id=444

I am also trying to figure out what to do since i have oil leaking out of my breathers and down onto my sparkplug boots. I also get a layer of black soot on the whole rear tail panel/spoiler of my car. My oil consumption is something like 1/2 quart a month. The engine is also leaking in a few spots, less so now that i run mobil1 15w50. I'm hoping a proper PCV system will help with leaks as well.
For the record the motor is a mild cam 350 SBC in a '69 camaro

My plan thus far is a PCV in the drivers side valve cover into an Air Oil Seperator then back into the base of the carb. Thats the "dirty" side
For clean side I'm still not sure if just a push in filter will work of if I need a catch can breather. I do have a very small amount of oil coming out of my passenger side breather right now but no where near the amount on the drivers side. I suppose I could just try the filter on the passenger side, I'm only out like $16 if it leaks

Those air oil seperators in that LS9 pic seem really nice.
Mann ProVent 200. This video does a great job of explaining how they work and PCV in general. The only downside I can see to these is that the oil has no receptical. You'd have to run the hose into another reservoir or back not the pan somehow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrvciHy2wD8
http://www.idparts.com/mann-provent-200-p-2334.html

Moroso makes a nice AOS too. Has a handy drain valve attached to the bottom to make life easy
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-85481?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-moroso&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhtO7BRCtwuO9gfTH-fQBEiQAdJ8FY2SXHwxD7i7eXfhNIyKd_3DFMpRU577Rcs7Zd9g VX9UaAmXs8P8HAQ

This video shows one in action on CTS-v. In one spirited drive the amount of oil collected is staggering. This would all be in your intake track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9klkDCItEY

[TheJDMan]

Yes I have the ME Wagner PCV. It pulls a better vacuum than a standard pcv and has slowed an annoying oil leak I have between the timing cover and oil pan. This is an older pic before I installed the adjustable pcv but it is essentally the same setup as now. The PCV is in the passenger valve cover and is plumbed to the the intake manifold air plenum just below the carb mount and the fresh air intake is the breather filter on the driver side valve cover. What cannot be seen in this photo is the GM 88962074 oil separator which is hidden up inside the breather filter. No catch can has been needed to this point.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88962074

128753

[Decline]

I went ahead and bought the Wagner adjustable PCV. Read thru alot of the info/data on there site and it really is the only thing of its kind available. When I called Gene the Machine told me the whole story behind its invention and told me they just got their U.S. patent papers
After hours of reading threads about PCV systems and breathers and catch cans from various different forums the general consensus is that short of a vaccum pump a well designed PCV system is the way to go for crank case ventilation.
Now i need to pick a proper Air oil separator. I hate the term "catch can" since it lumps lessor designs in with superior AOS's. You could literally plumb in a canning jar and it would catch some oil.
Leaning towrads Elite Engineering. They also make a "clean air seperator" now too which goes on the on the other valve cover and collects any oil that would be pushed out under WOT. Its made to screw in place of an oil cap on LS engines so i dont know if it would work on old school SBC valve covers. In the mean time I will prbly just run a K&N filter on the passenger side and see if it leaks at all.
I'll post a picture once i get everything installed

Steve thanks for posting. I'm pretty much going to run the same setup just opposite with the PCV on driver side. Good to know it slowed the oil leak. Thats like 75% of the reason I'm doing this! I'm sick of the leaky front oil pan seal dripping all over my shiney DSE rack and blowing onto all my other fancy @$# parts under the car

[TheJDMan]

You might take a look at these oil catch cans from Amazon for $22 and they come in different colors.

https://www.amazon.com/Godspeed-Universal-Racing-Catch-Reservoir/dp/B00400XFQ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467411492&sr=8-1&keywords=godspeed+oil+catch+can

Also, I don't know how many miles on your engine or what condition it is in but it is possible you have excessive blow by past the rings. A simple leak down test might tell you a lot.

[parsonsj]

The only downside I can see to these is that the oil has no receptical. You'd have to run the hose into another reservoir or back not the pan somehowI've got both going back to the pan via one way valves.

[Decline]

You might take a look at these oil catch cans from Amazon for $22 and they come in different colors.

https://www.amazon.com/Godspeed-Universal-Racing-Catch-Reservoir/dp/B00400XFQ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467411492&sr=8-1&keywords=godspeed+oil+catch+can

Also, I don't know how many miles on your engine or what condition it is in but it is possible you have excessive blow by past the rings. A simple leak down test might tell you a lot.


I'm currently shopping the elite engineering e2-x can and the Mighty Mouse can. From what I have read these are the only two that can catch the majority of the oil

My engine has 30k miles and runs pretty strong. I have never compression or leak down tested it but it's a bear to turn the crank by hand when I set the timing. I should prbly do a leak down test

[parsonsj]

From what I have read these are the only two that can catch the majority of the oilThe Mann-Hummel catches it all, with the added benefits of hand removable tops and replaceable filters. It's an OEM part with all the engineering behind it. It's down side is that it's big and somewhat expensive.

[TBART70]

Ordered the Wagner valve. Looking at the Mann-Hummel, John you have the oil returning to the pan? You are running two? Which one, I think I need the 400? I have the Trick Flow. Any pics? I might plug up my valve covers and then get new ones when I get it figured out.,

[TBART70]

Ordered the Wagner valve. Looking at the Mann-Hummel, John you have the oil returning to the pan? I have the Trick Flow. Any pics? I might plug up my valve covers and then get new ones when I get it figured out.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51400850?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-trick-flow-specialties&gclid=CKOv1Mit180CFQ1ahgodqNIPOg

I see your pic did not realize it at first.

[TBART70]

What did you use to make the connections?

[parsonsj]

Hey Tom, have a look here from about post 35 or so:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/103144-II-Much-Fabrication-has-an-LS9-powered-69-Camaro-in-the-works

[TBART70]

Long story short. Bought the Wagner valve never got a chance to install it or change the system. Was going to go to dual breather tanks but.....
I restricted the breathers and put the baffled vacuum fitting right in the valve cover. No more oil from the breathers but not the best way to do it, just wanted to see if it would stop.

Had to pull engine for rebuild, oil pressure problem, wiped distributor cam gear, 650 miles on it. Bought this expensive fix http://www.jonesracingproducts.com/vp.html.

[yellow1098Greg]

Can't find the price on the site for some reason....how much was it?

[TBART70]

1500.00 not including hoses. I have a serpentine setup and I will have to get this thing to fit. It comes with a bracket to fit passenger side low. It hits the frame. I can flip the bracket over and it will work. Runs off a mandrel in the crank pulley.