Emissions What-If

[Interceptor5588]

Just thinking about this new EPA proposal, as I'm sure it would come to Canada in due time as well.

WHAT IF the EPA mandated an annual sniffer test at registration time, with the standards being the original production year OR 1975 emissions specs? Simple 5-minute test, NOT equipment-based, don't even lift the hood?

My point is, how many of our well-maintained Pro-Touring cars would pass? A 69 Camaro with a crate LS7 and high-flow cats? How about my 70 GTO with warmed 400, 2 cats and modern fuel injection? Would they pass 1970 or 1975 emissions spec? How many of you have experience in dealing with this? And what about a new Mustang or something with a bolt-on supercharger?

Discuss. Not saying they SHOULD do this, but What If? Let's NOT discuss the logistics of who would do the testing, etc cause that's a whole nother can or worms...

[andrewb70]

I faced this reality when I had my GTO registered in Illinois and it still had the 502 big block. I had to meet a sniffer test based on 1970 standards without any other visual inspection. I passed without issue.

I am sure that any LS swapped vehicle that is in good tune would pass without cat converters.

Andrew

[Interceptor5588]

502 FI or carb?

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

That's how it should be. Vehicle years should be required to stay under a certain amount of emissions of each type, NOX, CO, etc, and if you can make your car pass with a blown 540 with no cats or smog equipment, more power to ya. A lot of this early emissions stuff is obsolete, and didn't work well, modern tech runs so much cleaner, stronger, and more efficient.

[andrewb70]

502 FI or carb?

EFI using a Holley Commander 950 system. The new Holley systems are years ahead of that old system and would run much better. The old system was batch fire, while the new systems are sequential and have user adjustable injector end angle, which can really help to clean up emissions, especially at idle.

Andrew

[raustinss]

Good God yes a crate engine ls would pass ....keep in mind folks the dirty nasty ZR 1 can pass a e test so can pro touring cars ....and that's a 640 hp motor too

[carguy502]

I would be interested to see how more traditional motors fare. I have an EZ-EFI on an SBC with no cats. While I know it would not pass for new car standards, I would assume that it would beat the standards for 1969 probably pretty easily. I would be lying if I said I had not been looking at Erod LS3s since this news broke...

[Nicks67GTO]

My GTO is an original California car. I kept all the original smog crap just in case of something like this though i'm not even sure if I could use it?? Iv'e probably had half a dozen or more random messages/offers about buying that stuff over the years.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

^I don't see any way they can force people with already non-compliant cars to be compliant. Through various local laws, and just general time, many of these old cars don't have the equipment anymore, and replacement parts are just flat unavailable. Not to mention the old smog ideas are just archaic, and inefficient. Technically a modern high flow cat is incorrect smog equipment for one of those heavy, pellet filled early cats.

Then there's just local laws, what about that? In Arizona, 67-up cars have to go through smog... unless it's insured as a collectible or classic car, then it has no smog at all, which is how all my old cars are insured, and thus, don't have smog. My 75 Pontiac Astre GT with a 406, my 71 Firebird, and even my 82 Z28 are insured under this (just removed the seized smog pump on the 82). What about places like Kentucky, and other parts of the South were these is no smog test, at all? How's that suddenly going to be enforced?

[j-c-c]

I must have missed the part about where the EPA cares about your "illegally" modified car, or that they have no avenues to force compliance, like side of the road checks, drive by sniffers, insurance companies in on the slaughter, pre registration equipment checks, owner sworn affidavits certifying all original equipment is in place and operational, and the possible penalty if found otherwise car is crushed, etc

Don't underestimate these guys.

[TheJDMan]

I think we all have a lot of questions about what this could mean to us as car enthusiasts. But the bigger priority right now is to gather enough numbers to oppose the EPA regulations before they ever become law.

[T_Raven]

It would be great if all that they cared about was vehicle year and tail pipe emissions. It's against federal EPA laws to remove, modify, or even relocate most emissions equipment. For example long tube headers with cats aren't allowed because you have to relocate the cats.

Every area that tests can choose which rules they want to enforce. I'm fortunate enough to live in a place where there is no testing, but I'm sure it's bound to come along in the future, or I might eventually move.

It would be so simple and logical to just have limits for a year, do the tail pipe test, don't even worry about what engine or equipment is on it, but we're talking government agencies and logic lol. It would be nice.

The really stupid part about emissions testings is that classic cars are a drop in the ocean of all the air pollution. Even modified late model cars are still a drop in the bucket. The vast majority of pollution from cars comes from bone stock commuters.

[MonzaRacer]

You know The fact is a friend of mine over on theturboforums.com got his GTA Firebird tailpipe legal using a tuned port FI and older Commander 950 set up all with stock style converter, even while running twin turbos(I guess as long as it is clean at the pipe his state was ok with it)
Honestly if I ever got a chance to clean up the EPA there are literally hundreds of thousands regulations that need trashed and simpler more concise and clear regulations put in place.
Honestly if they would just leave the rules of a stock style functional evap system(or applicable aftermarket unit) and let the tailpipe be the defining factor.
See so many cars can make huge power even with properly chosen converters so as to not restrict the exhaust but still operate properly.
I have "built" a couple of evap systems for people who had issues with fuel vapors as their cars were in attached garages and they were very susceptible to excess fumes.
Also built converter equipt exhaust systems that even meet fairly new standards.

[Project92rs]

We get to deal with this issue every year since we run a 1988 GTA. It has to pass a sniffer every other year in AZ to meet the original spec of the vehicle. So far we haven't had any issue getting a high compression 383 to pass and the LS1 that replaced the 383. In June I get to see how well the 418 LS does with two good cats and a solid tune.

My only real complaint with the emissions test system is the unevenness of it all. In AZ a car built before 1967 doesn't have to be tested at all. 67 - 81 is an annual test at idle and loaded. 82-96 is every two years and is a drive style test on the rollers. 97 and newer OBDII is a computer scan for emissions codes. They rarely do a visual check for the equipment if the car passes the sniffer or computer scan. Some of the biggest polluters on the road are the 97 and newer cars that a good tuner just makes sure the codes never set then the owner removes all the emissions equipment and mods any way they want. But if I put that same engine build into a 67 - 96 vehicle, it will fail on the sniffer test. At least level the playing field or give me the option to pay extra and just skip the test completely.

[mc84_zz4]

Just to add one more statistic point.
A 1984 305 (anemic 180 HP) with all smog gear working, and a gutted cat (meltdown before 16k miles due to being a Dallas car)
It passed the CO smog test with less than 1/2 CO allowed and about 1/10 of the allowed NOX, from 40K miles up until 150K miles when I moved out.

A side note: in the 90's they tried Oxi-fuels in Colorado, which were 'oxigenated' to help reduce winter emissions pollution, as it turns out there was less energy per gallon, causing increased gas consumption, therefore causing more pollution.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

When I lived in Salt Lake City area where being in a large valley surrounded by mountains there is a smog problem, emissions standards were tight and any car newer than 67 (iirc) had to pass a sniffer every year. For the old cars with removed smog equip. if it passed the sniffer you got a waiver that noted the parts were gone from the car but it passed so you were good to go. The limits on the smog output for the older cars were much higher than new cars, so they could run comparatively fairly dirty and still pass so you could renew you tags and keep driving.

The issue with the EPA now is with non registered, non street driving race cars, but I believe if they crack down on racers it will inevitably trickle on to cracking down on street cars too.

[MonzaRacer]

Just to add one more statistic point.
A 1984 305 (anemic 180 HP) with all smog gear working, and a gutted cat (meltdown before 16k miles due to being a Dallas car)
It passed the CO smog test with less than 1/2 CO allowed and about 1/10 of the allowed NOX, from 40K miles up until 150K miles when I moved out.

A side note: in the 90's they tried Oxi-fuels in Colorado, which were 'oxigenated' to help reduce winter emissions pollution, as it turns out there was less energy per gallon, causing increased gas consumption, therefore causing more pollution.

OK now lets get one thing straight, oxygenated fuels have been around since late 70s in some areas especially basin areas and such. They were NEVER a good design. The "reformulated fuels" were supposed to help emissions,smog,etc and the fact of the matter when ethanol was brought back up after water contamination from MTBE.
Several reasons why ethanol beats MTBE it increases octane, it does actually help grain producers, and contrary to BS spread around they dont use food grade corn for ethanol, they use cattle feed grade corn, and also the left overs from ethanol production IS still cattle feed, very high protein.
Better than 95% of the corn going into a distillery comes out usable, in cattle feed, CO2, and other byproducts.
Now the fact is BOTH MTBE and ethanol dry out old fuel hose and other rubber products.
Now MTBE creates the old varnish/sludge and ethanol cleans all that and other crap OUT of the fuel system.
SO: find an old car, install several fuel filters and dont worry so much. We keep having people bitching about something we cant change with out electing people to FIX the Clean Air Act where oxygenated fuels are mandated.
Now the biggest problem is now that ethanol is part of the fuel infrastructure, now the other big problem we have is the fact that the handout people in the government were supposed to NOT continue the subsidy of ethanol, it was supposed to start tapering off but like all politicians they keep doling out the freebies.
The fact was that the subsidies should have been sunset out. But are now made nearly permanent and those were thanks to Obama and the full house of Democrats before 2010.