2016 SCCA CAM rules

[IndyDave]

2016 CAM rules in down loadable PDF form.

[SSLance]

Where are all of the Corvette guys? Haven't seen the news yet? :D

Super glad the G-bodies are moved to CAM-T as well.

[nokones]

Dave:
For some reason I can't view your attachment. Could you please email me a copy of the rules to [email protected]. I would really appreciate it very much. This is a coincedence, I was about to send out a posting seeking if anyone would know when the rules were going to be published since it is now November.

[SSLance]

Just sent them Kenny...

Me thinks you'll approve.

[SSLance]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[SSLance]

Or if that hot link doesn't work....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/11/201620CAM20handout2020Rules20Final1_zpsz-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSVLance/media/2016%20CAM%20handout%20-%20Rules%20Final-1_zpszhwe6ntw.jpg.html)

[iRoush]

Is this a finalized CAM Appendix for 2016?

[SSLance]

Yes...

[nokones]

Just sent them Kenny...

Me thinks you'll approve.

Yes, excellent. Now, we can take the next step and figure out how we can "shut down that lil' Cobra". I think we have a plan.

Any 2016 Challenge dates and locations yet?

[SSLance]

I think I heard that the schedule will be released sometime during SEMA week...heard something thru the grapevine at possibly 4 challenge dates next season.

[nokones]

Overall, I like the new rules because now I get to play, have fun, and get to hang with the kool cars and guys/gals now. The class structure is fine and will evolve over time. Although, I do have a couple of comments. In my opinion, I feel the lexan should not be allowed because if the car is supposed to be "fully considered street legal", legally you cannot have non-approved safety glass on a public highway. Lexan is not an approved safety glass. The weight penalty may take care of that subject. It is just the contradiction that a CAM car is suppose to be street legal and that Lexan is not street legal that I was pointing out.

I do not have a C7, yet, and I don't think I will ever have a Viper, but, I feel the C7 and the new generation Viper should not be excluded. With the open rules on performance enhancements and modifications, I feel anyone can compete with those cars if they want to. If the performance rules are going to be open, then the car models should be open as long as it is an American, front engine, and rear wheel driven car. Hell, in CAM-S, we have to compete against the 2400 or 2500 pound, 850 horsepower Cobra, so what is the difference in getting creamed by one car as opposed to another car. The objective is we are suppose to have fun rather you're getting creamed or not, as long as you are not getting creamed by a 2300 pound 500 horsepower non-american bumblebee car.

I'm not whining or sniveling, I'm just commenting and I am truly very greatful that I can compete in the CAM Challenges next year.

[TheJDMan]

Just curious why the interior floor covering can be removed in Cam-S but not in C or T?

[Schwartz Performance]

Overall, I like the new rules because now I get to play, have fun, and get to hang with the kool cars and guys/gals now. The class structure is fine and will evolve over time. Although, I do have a couple of comments. In my opinion, I feel the lexan should not be allowed because if the car is supposed to be "fully considered street legal", legally you cannot have non-approved safety glass on a public highway. Lexan is not an approved safety glass. The weight penalty may take care of that subject. It is just the contradiction that a CAM car is suppose to be street legal and that Lexan is not street legal that I was pointing out.

I do not have a C7, yet, and I don't think I will ever have a Viper, but, I feel the C7 and the new generation Viper should not be excluded. With the open rules on performance enhancements and modifications, I feel anyone can compete with those cars if they want to. If the performance rules are going to be open, then the car models should be open as long as it is an American, front engine, and rear wheel driven car. Hell, in CAM-S, we have to compete against the 2400 or 2500 pound, 850 horsepower Cobra, so what is the difference in getting creamed by one car as opposed to another car. The objective is we are suppose to have fun rather you're getting creamed or not, as long as you are not getting creamed by a 2300 pound 500 horsepower non-american bumblebee car.

I'm not whining or sniveling, I'm just commenting and I am truly very greatful that I can compete in the CAM Challenges next year.

I agree on the lexan windshields.. But lexan side glass could be allowed.
I also agree on the C7 / Viper. I mean the 2008+ Z06 vs a base 2014 Stingray... Come on lol.

[nokones]

After digesting the new rules, it appears that you can not have a custom made dashboard and console. I was looking forward to remove my OE dash and console and have a complete custom dash and console installed in my C4 Corvette. The only way you can do something completely custom is take out the factory dash and have something made out of carbon fiber. I guess if I want to play in CAM, I won't be able to do that now. I'm not understanding why there is that rule when the performance rules are essentially open. I thought that this was a hot rodding class and with hot rodding you should be able to do anything hot rod related you want. The last time I checked, having a custom made dash was a hot rodding thing to do.

I'm a little foggy on the meaning of the front seat rule. Does that rule mean you can't have a bench type seat and you must have bucket seats? I'm just curious on the meaning. It's not like that I want to install a bench seat in my C4 Corvette.

[Kcorrigan2]

I do not read the rules that way. The rules state that you can modify the OE dash...modify is a big open term that allows you to do almost anything. I believe the spirit of the rule once again is to have a finished dash that is not a race car piece....same with the console. I interpret the seat rule as not moving the driver position to the back seat for weight distribution...I feel they are continuing the non-race car theme.
I am good with these rules. They are wide open but also are trying to keep these cars as hot rods and not race cars. After competing in the Goodguys and Ultimate Street Car series it is clear to me that some cars are truly race cars with a license plate and like it or not that is being discouraged by the SCCA and Ultimate Street Car.

[Schwartz Performance]

Right ^^^.

You can have a custom gauge panel but not a completely sheet aluminum dash basically. Needs to look like more of a street car than a race car.

[nokones]

My intent was not have a race car dash like you would see in a race car. My intent was to have the dash and center console completely redesigned like you would see in a custom car in a custom car show. This means that the complete OE dash and console would have to be removed. The custom dash would still have the vents, maybe a padded dash top (not sure yet), of course custom gauges, HVAC controls; and the center console would still have the controls for the windows, the mirrors, and a center console compartment. In order to do something really bitchin is to remove the entire OE dash and console units. I don't want to install just a piece of sheet metal with a few gauges and make it look like a ghetto hatchet job.

In the SCCA world, modify means you have to leave most of the OE part intact and modify only what is necessary to facilitate intended purpose of your modification. That is the direction the protest committee will take when enforcing that rule. I know by experience.

Anyways, this is supposed to be a hot rodding class where you race your hot rods. In my opinion, a race car dash is not a race car dash. It is a hot rod dash and that design should be left up to the creator in what that dash looks like and what accessories the dash should have. Hot rods had those type of dashes way before race cars did. As long as it has a dash of some type, then it should be legal to hot rod your hot rod in CAM. If these silly types of rules are going to govern the creativity of the hot rodder the CAM rules will be SCCAd up in no time.

Other organizations don't care what type of dash you have and what difference does it make in regards to performance especially when you have a minimum weight rule.

If SCCA is trying to promote CAM to the hot rodding enthusiasts that have a custom car including the dash, they won't be able to compete because of this rule.

[nokones]

I do not read the rules that way. The rules state that you can modify the OE dash...modify is a big open term that allows you to do almost anything. I believe the spirit of the rule once again is to have a finished dash that is not a race car piece....same with the console. I interpret the seat rule as not moving the driver position to the back seat for weight distribution...I feel they are continuing the non-race car theme.
I am good with these rules. They are wide open but also are trying to keep these cars as hot rods and not race cars. After competing in the Goodguys and Ultimate Street Car series it is clear to me that some cars are truly race cars with a license plate and like it or not that is being discouraged by the SCCA and Ultimate Street Car.

At Optima, custom builds such as a dash it is not discouraged at all. You can compete with anything you want just like Mike Dusold's Camaro. He takes it in the shorts in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment because his car is essentially a race car build with a license plate. You just don't get many style points in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment. According to Mike Copeland, they want to see creativity and custom builds rather than the OE units. You get more points with a custom build component than you get with a stock design as long it is still streetable, and of course, kool looking.

[GrabberGT]

Now Im confused. I read it in defense of those with aftermarket dashes. It does not say you have to have OE dash but that you can modify the one you have if you want. But now... I think drawing the line between custom and race is harder to do than you would think. I think the dash rules should have been covered under "finished look", cover "any openings" and "exposed metal/race interior". "Upholstered interior panels" should also include dash pad. There are some very nice carbon and fiberglass dashes available and in use.

Is this a race dash or custom?

119133

[nokones]

I do agree with the backseat and panel removal rule, if the item is removed you should finish it with some type of material. For an example, if you remove the factory door panel, a aluminum piece or something covering the door frame should meet the rule requirement. The same thing with the rear seat, the floor should be finished with something such as carpet, or a panel of some sort. It should have a finished look. Hot rodders just don'' t remove stuff and leave it unfinished. They finish the removal with something so it looks kool. As long as it has a finished look than it should be legal and that finish look should be left to the creator.

This should also includes if the OE headliner is removed. It needs a finished look. I' m ok with if the finished look is a metal look, as long if was smooth out and painted, and have some resemblance of a finished look as opposed to just removing the panel and doing nothing.

As for the floor covering rule, it is my opinion as long as it is not bare metal and you have some type of covering than it should be legal. I don't recall any car leaving the factory with just a bare metal floor. Either you have carpeting or a rubber mat covering the floor.

[nokones]

Now Im confused. I read it in defense of those with aftermarket dashes. It does not say you have to have OE dash but that you can modify the one you have if you want. But now... I think drawing the line between custom and race is harder to do than you would think. I think the dash rules should have been covered under "finished look", cover "any openings" and "exposed metal/race interior". "Upholstered interior panels" should also include dash pad. There are some very nice carbon and fiberglass dashes available and in use.

Is this a race dash or custom?

119133

My take it is a custom dash because you have a dash. However, as the rule is written, only the OE dash can be modified and not removed. In order to install a custom/after-market dash you have to remove the OE dash, the rules does not allow that removal. A removed dash unit is not a modified dash unit, it is a removed dash unit. If you remove the dash and install an after-market or custom dash, than the car was modified and you are allowed to modify the car in accordance with the rule subset. In this case, it is an unfortunate no-no. As for your interior, according to the picture you may also have a problem with a finished interior look.

All they have to do is add a word to the dash rule. If they just word the rule to say the OE dash may be modified and/or replaced, that would take care of the problem of having no dash at all. This is a hot rod class so lets hot rod our hot rods with whatever custom stuff we want to do to our hot rods. There is a minimum weight rule, so what is the problem here.

[Tomswheels]

I love the fact that you let Kenny in, and now he has a bunch of complaints.

[1966mustangconv]

Complaints? I didn't see any complaints from him.

[WallaceMFG]

Are other SCCA events really that strict about things like a dash? Just wondering because I've taken my ugly, unfinished car to several events and they didn't even flinch at passing it through tech even though technically it is breaking a few rules (no carpet, "finished look"). I just can't imagine that they would outlaw a car because somebody put an aftermarket dash in it. The fun part of hot rodding is to make something that you like, so if somebody wants to build a carbon fiber dash instead of the cheap plastic one it had from the factory they should be allowed to. There is a limit when something becomes a race car that can be hard to define, but if you want a race car then build one and put it in the correct class. I think they're trying to stop the full race car builds from getting in and cleaning up the competition.

In my opinion, the picture posted earlier is a race car dash not a hot rod dash. It looks like a NASCAR dash, and I'm pretty sure nobody drives a NASCAR on the street haha.

[nokones]

Tech inspection are just a safety inspection. The tech inspectors don' t care if you have an illegal part or modification, unless he is your competitor or a friend of your competitor and you beat him. In most cases, the enforcement of illegal parts and modifications are enforced by the competitors you beat.

[Randy67]

SCCA tech looks for safety items (I am a tech inspector for our region), not for rules violations, it is up to competitors to "police" each other in that regard. Edit: Kenny beat me to it.

As for the dash part, I guess time will tell on that plays out. Might get stricter or maybe a bit more lax.

[nokones]

I love the fact that you let Kenny in, and now he has a bunch of complaints.

"Let Kenny in" - I thought I was let in a long time ago since, I've been a card carrying member for almost 30 years now. I don't think that makes me a recent "let in".

[nokones]

SCCA tech looks for safety items (I am a tech inspector for our region), not for rules violations, it is up to competitors to "police" each other in that regard. Edit: Kenny beat me to it.

As for the dash part, I guess time will tell on that plays out. Might get stricter or maybe a bit more lax.

Maybe they do things differently in San Diego.

[Tomswheels]

Nope, no complaints except for C7 Vettes should be allowed in, because he may buy one. Oh and the Lexan rules aren't to his liking. Oh and the Dash wording needs work so that Kennys is legal. Why build your car to the rules when it's cheaper to amend the rules to your car? Nope, no complaints at all.

[hotrodalex]

Are other SCCA events really that strict about things like a dash? Just wondering because I've taken my ugly, unfinished car to several events and they didn't even flinch at passing it through tech even though technically it is breaking a few rules (no carpet, "finished look"). I just can't imagine that they would outlaw a car because somebody put an aftermarket dash in it. The fun part of hot rodding is to make something that you like, so if somebody wants to build a carbon fiber dash instead of the cheap plastic one it had from the factory they should be allowed to. There is a limit when something becomes a race car that can be hard to define, but if you want a race car then build one and put it in the correct class. I think they're trying to stop the full race car builds from getting in and cleaning up the competition.

In my opinion, the picture posted earlier is a race car dash not a hot rod dash. It looks like a NASCAR dash, and I'm pretty sure nobody drives a NASCAR on the street haha.

From my experience with CAM, the rules are basically only there to stop full race cars, like you said. If you have a normal-ish car that happens to break a rule or two, I don't think anyone is going to stop you. The nature of SCCA rule enforcement and the pro-touring/CAM community means that unless you're being an anti-social jerk and also breaking all the rules to win, you'll be fine with a carbon fiber dash or custom bare aluminum door panels.

[SSLance]

^ this

[Cobra 498]

Yes, excellent. Now, we can take the next step and figure out how we can "shut down that lil' Cobra". I think we have a plan.

Any 2016 Challenge dates and locations yet?

You won't have to we are building a C6 Corvette to the limit of the new rules with ABS, traction control, carbon brakes, 900 hp 8000 rpm NA LS with Motec electronics for engine management.
It will have custom suspension with rod ends and correct geometry, 315 fronts and 335 or 355 rears. We will also improve aero to the extent of rules. We have learned so much developing the Cobra the last two years the Corvette should be much easier since it is starting out with a much more advanced platform. Everybody wanted Corvettes in, so we decided to join them and build a real Corvette. The company that built my 850 HP FE is already specing parts for the LS: Carrillo rods, RHS block, Bryant crank and 450 cfm heads, big compression, and big cam C-16 fuel.
We decided to quit beating on a multi million dollar car that we could not really be altered for fear of destroying its originality and get something that can be cut, welded etc and that is easily replaceable if crashed.

[nokones]

Wow, that is surprising news Bruce. Now, the Corvettes no longer have to chase your Cobra's tail lights and smell your exhaust. CAM-S is shaping up to be a very competitive class and it will be a lot of fun next year. I'm glad you guys decided to stay in the same class. Are you aware that AAS is planning for an event on Jan 2&3 at Marina?

[Cobra 498]

The car will not be done before June lots of work to do before then like buying a legal street licensed Z06 and then converting it. No did not know they were starting that early
If you get into the 32's on the practice course at Crows your car is ready! AAS said we could run my GT until the Corvette is done so they can be ahead of the SCCA curveagain

[bryant]

the dash in one of my cars is aluminum. it does have a finished look, not a basic race car look
119193
119194

this dash does have a stereo in it. all the holes are filled now with gauges, switches and a/c.
yet the rules pretty much make the car illegal because its metal.
Ill just have to see if the local cam guys protest me when i bring this car out.
I suspect this rule will be changed for 2017, at least I hope so

[nokones]

Bryant - Unfortunately, the way the rule is worded, your dash would be a violation. In accordance with the past rulings on how the rule would be enforced in a protest situation, you must retain the OE dash unit and only modify the OE dash just enough to facilitate the intended modification, i.e., remove the factory instrument gauge cluster unit and install an after market type unit like a Dakota instrument cluster unit. According to the existing rules, you can only modify the OE dashboard unit only in a way to facilitate the installation of the Dakota into the OE Dashboard unit, nothing more than that.

I believe the true intent of this rule is to prevent racecars with license plates like a fully modified CP car with very little interior components from running CAM and I understand and agree with that intent. Most racecar dashes are usually just a "piece" of a flat aluminum just big enough for a couple of gauges and a couple of switches. I sure hope that they will change the rule to allow custom made/after-market type dashboards.

Right now, I'm just in the exploring stages and trying to find a reputable shop that can build a custom dash and center console for me. The existing rule may put my project on hold or I just may no longer run any SCCA events after I have my custom-made dash and console installed in my car. USCA (Optima), NMCA, and other organizations allow custom made dashboards and maybe SCCA will in the future.

[nokones]

Ok, it is SEMA week, any word on if the CAM Challenge dates and sites have been announced? Optima announced their 2016 dates today.

[IndyNova]

So would my dash be a violation then? I plan to run a cam class (i'm a noobie so not sure which one yet..lol) It's an aftermarket bezel with aftermarket gauges.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/11/C38BCCE2158C47408DD38F0F119208B8_1-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/indycar1/media/nova/C38BCCE2-158C-4740-8DD3-8F0F119208B8_1.jpg.html)

[nokones]

Kool gauges. By the picture it appears that you are still using the OE dash unit and you just affixed a panel with the gauges to the OE dash unit. By definition of the existing rule, that is a modification of the OE dash and you are totally legal.

I thought about just installing a panel of analog gauges in my C4 Corvette's OE Dash unit but, it just wouldn't look right. It would look like it was partially done with the mixture of analog gauges and the OE dash and the center console. I would like to do something new, different, and have a fresh look with a total custom design for the entire dash and center console.

Do you hang out with Indy Dave?

[IndyNova]

I haven't hung out with Dave, although he is only a few miles from me. I am brand new to scca this year.

[dontlifttoshift]

Why isn't there a CAM AC yet? It seems a lot of the problems with wording could have been prevented with "out for member comment"

Different weights between the classes I get, but the rest of the discrepancies between S, T, and C just muddy the waters.

Keep it simple, Keep it fun.

[nokones]

Why isn't there a CAM AC yet? It seems a lot of the problems with wording could have been prevented with "out for member comment"

Different weights between the classes I get, but the rest of the discrepancies between S, T, and C just muddy the waters.

Keep it simple, Keep it fun.

I agree. I think they are getting better at the understanding of the Pro-Touring world. I am very appreciative that they allowed the C4, C5, & C6 Corvettes and the up to the 2012 Vipers to compete in CAM this year. Since Bruce and Scott are building a mega horsepower C6 Corvette we won't have to worry about a mega horsepower 2400 pound car whipping our butts. The competition in CAM-S is going to be great and of course fun. I have a feeling that CAM-S will be a huge class now. In Northern California I think we will be about 12-15 Corvette drivers strong. I think Texas will have a lot of Corvette drivers running CAM next year. The SCCA Solo Nationals may be a lot of fun with all the Corvettes just like it used to be back in the early 90's.

[struck by Lightning]

Webster Online Dictionary -

Hot Rod (noun)
1. A car modified to increase its speed and acceleration

Race Car (noun)
1. A fast car that competes in races.

Spirit
6. The intended meaning of a communication

Cool (adj.)
Antonyms:
6. cool - fashionable and attractive at the time

I applaud the SCCA efforts with the CAM class as it is hard to make everyone happy when rules are introduced into any organization.

[hotrodalex]

Why isn't there a CAM AC yet? It seems a lot of the problems with wording could have been prevented with "out for member comment"

Different weights between the classes I get, but the rest of the discrepancies between S, T, and C just muddy the waters.

Keep it simple, Keep it fun.

In the Utah SCCA everyone just runs "CAM", no S, T, or C distinction. Super simple and fun at the local level. The national level and challenges are big enough to need some separation and a few more rules.

[dontlifttoshift]

It is not the distinction between S,T, and C that bothers me. It the different rules between the classes, while minor, that make it confusing.....even if it does all fit on one page.

[IndyDave]

Many valid points here. Can't say anyone is wrong in their critique of the rules. CAM/S is still a work in progress and I don't necessarily agree with the different weights for different cars. CAM/S right now is a bit of a catch-all for the really off the wall stuff as well as cars originally built with 2 seats.

On the interior rules: I read them and took them the same way many of you have. I've been told that the what we're reading isn't what the rules are trying to say.

On the dash issue: Custom dashes and replica dashes are allowed is what I'm being told. What isn't allowed are "sheet metal" dashes like you would see in a bracket car, Saturday night short track car, or an SCCA Prepared or Modified Solo car.

Interior panels: Upholstered interior panels may be replaced with panels of alternate materials provided the panel is styled. In other words, you can have panels made out of aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, etc., as long as they are styled somehow. Roll beaded, stepped, etc., it must have a finished look. What isn't allowed, a flat sheet just screwed or riveted in place like you would see in a bracket car, or a an SCCA Prepared or Modified Solo car.

Now that I've relayed all that, the rules still say what the rules say. It's screwed up for sure. I'm working on presenting alternate wording for the rules and beg that they consider changing the wording before the season starts.

[TheJDMan]

Dave,
Why can the interior floor covering be removed in Cam S but not in Cam T or C?

[IndyDave]

Dave,
Why can the interior floor covering be removed in Cam S but not in Cam T or C?

Don't get me started on that. I've been arguing against the floor covering rule since it was first proposed. The train of thought is that the cars are street cars and street cars have floor coverings. Race cars do not have floor coverings. Guess I've driven a few "race cars" on the street then. So the comprise is T & C have to have floor coverings, if your car doesn't have a floor covering, then it gets bumped into S.

[TheJDMan]

Don't get me started on that. I've been arguing against the floor covering rule since it was first proposed. The train of thought is that the cars are street cars and street cars have floor coverings. Race cars do not have floor coverings. Guess I've driven a few "race cars" on the street then. So the comprise is T & C have to have floor coverings, if your car doesn't have a floor covering, then it gets bumped into S.

So then by that logic, race cars are allowed in Cam S because they don't have floor covering? But wait, all cars competing in CAM must be street legal, so carpet is required in all cars! Except race cars which don't have carpet and because carpet is not required in Cam S race cars must be allowed?

I gotta say, that is a stupid rule. I can see why you argued against it! Leave it to SCCA to say in 100 words what could be covered in 10.

[nokones]

Indy Dave - Any word on the Challenge dates and sites for next year?

[chetly]

Don't get me started on that. I've been arguing against the floor covering rule since it was first proposed. The train of thought is that the cars are street cars and street cars have floor coverings. Race cars do not have floor coverings. Guess I've driven a few "race cars" on the street then. So the comprise is T & C have to have floor coverings, if your car doesn't have a floor covering, then it gets bumped into S.

is floor covering specifically stated as carpet or if you rhino lined the interior would that be a finished look? I can understand the bare metal floors not being legal because it goes along with the finished look not a race car look reasons.

[mpozzi]

At Optima, custom builds such as a dash it is not discouraged at all. You can compete with anything you want just like Mike Dusold's Camaro. He takes it in the shorts in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment because his car is essentially a race car build with a license plate. You just don't get many style points in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment. According to Mike Copeland, they want to see creativity and custom builds rather than the OE units. You get more points with a custom build component than you get with a stock design as long it is still streetable, and of course, kool looking.

You sure about that, cowboy?? Mike D. finished pretty high up (Top Ten, I think) in D&E for OUSCI this year. And all this with minimalist interior and dash/IP. Mike's car is what it's going to take to win OUSCI if you want to get it done in a Pony Car. I think he ran out of time as he'd planned to do more but what he brought to the judges, they sure liked.

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

I do agree with the backseat and panel removal rule, if the item is removed you should finish it with some type of material. For an example, if you remove the factory door panel, a aluminum piece or something covering the door frame should meet the rule requirement. The same thing with the rear seat, the floor should be finished with something such as carpet, or a panel of some sort. It should have a finished look. Hot rodders just don'' t remove stuff and leave it unfinished. They finish the removal with something so it looks kool. As long as it has a finished look than it should be legal and that finish look should be left to the creator.

This should also includes if the OE headliner is removed. It needs a finished look. I' m ok with if the finished look is a metal look, as long if was smooth out and painted, and have some resemblance of a finished look as opposed to just removing the panel and doing nothing.

As for the floor covering rule, it is my opinion as long as it is not bare metal and you have some type of covering than it should be legal. I don't recall any car leaving the factory with just a bare metal floor. Either you have carpeting or a rubber mat covering the floor.

They didn't leave the factory with metal-covered door panels either. The rules are pretty clear on door panels and the dash/IP. Carpeted flooring is fine. Same with panels that cover missing rear seats. It's kinda like porn as it's hard to define (and there are a lot of definitions for CAM here ...) but you know it when you see it. Something that's bordering on a "race car" appearance is pretty definable. If your metal door panel has vinyl covering it, you're probably okay. If it's bare, probably not ...

There are plenty of ways to remove interior pieces and recover the bare areas while still keeping lightness in the background. Unfortunately, SCCA Solo has so many interpretations of the Rules for their Categories and sub-classes and it's best to get a clarification from them if you have a question.

Mary P.

[mpozzi]

Now Im confused. I read it in defense of those with aftermarket dashes. It does not say you have to have OE dash but that you can modify the one you have if you want. But now... I think drawing the line between custom and race is harder to do than you would think. I think the dash rules should have been covered under "finished look", cover "any openings" and "exposed metal/race interior". "Upholstered interior panels" should also include dash pad. There are some very nice carbon and fiberglass dashes available and in use.

Is this a race dash or custom?

119133

If I was judge and jury, it would be race ...

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

So would my dash be a violation then? I plan to run a cam class (i'm a noobie so not sure which one yet..lol) It's an aftermarket bezel with aftermarket gauges.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/11/C38BCCE2158C47408DD38F0F119208B8_1-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/indycar1/media/nova/C38BCCE2-158C-4740-8DD3-8F0F119208B8_1.jpg.html)

Your dash and IP are just fine and meets "the spirit" of the rules. Another black dash and IP were posted above and if that was covered, it would probably fly as well. It's the "bare metal" that gets folks questioning. The intent of this rule isn't to outlaw any significant modifications of a dash or instrument panel (IP and you're probably guessed that part by now) but to keep it within a "street car" appearance. Yours above is definitely that I'd consider to be very "street car." Yes, it's modified but it has the appearance of a well-designed and gauged IP.

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

is floor covering specifically stated as carpet or if you rhino lined the interior would that be a finished look? I can understand the bare metal floors not being legal because it goes along with the finished look not a race car look reasons.

That might be questioned but would have a better chance of being ok'd than just bare or painted metal floor.

Mary P.

[mpozzi]

Why isn't there a CAM AC yet? It seems a lot of the problems with wording could have been prevented with "out for member comment"

Different weights between the classes I get, but the rest of the discrepancies between S, T, and C just muddy the waters.

Keep it simple, Keep it fun.

We're lucky to have the three separate classes that we DO have, Donny. Unless we make numbers, CAM as a whole has a slim to none chance at being a Nationals class. With STP, our numbers will most likely dwindle even more ...

If you want your concerns to be heard, WRITE LETTERS. I should also say that this should have been done several months ago as that horse has been out of the barn for a while now. Without the late-models, we'd have been sunk this year. Yes, there's not much "Classic" about a late-model anything American but they do add numbers to our cause and we'll let 'em stay. After all, they do make cool noises and lay down rubber ...

Mary Pozzi

[dontlifttoshift]

I think you misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with the late models, in fact we participated in the CAM east event in our FS prepped '15 Mustang and had a blast. My point was, there would be less confusion if the rules were consistent across the 3 classes regarding windshields, floor coverings, etc.

Regarding National status for CAM, no thanks. I don't intend that to detract from your impressive win at Nationals, I just think that jacket status will be bad for CAM overall. (see USCA's evolution over the past years) I would rather see more CAM Challenge events added to the schedule and forget about Nationals. Let CAM be it's own thing within SCCA and it will thrive. I also say all this, fully intending to run in CAM-T next year.

[nokones]

At Optima, custom builds such as a dash it is not discouraged at all. You can compete with anything you want just like Mike Dusold's Camaro. He takes it in the shorts in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment because his car is essentially a race car build with a license plate. You just don't get many style points in the Lingenfelter Design & Engineering segment. According to Mike Copeland, they want to see creativity and custom builds rather than the OE units. You get more points with a custom build component than you get with a stock design as long it is still streetable, and of course, kool looking.

You sure about that, cowboy?? Mike D. finished pretty high up (Top Ten, I think) in D&E for OUSCI this year. And all this with minimalist interior and dash/IP. Mike's car is what it's going to take to win OUSCI if you want to get it done in a Pony Car. I think he ran out of time as he'd planned to do more but what he brought to the judges, they sure liked.

Mary Pozzi

I think I'm pretty sure . Actually, Mike Dusold finished 13th in the Design & Engineering segment, 1 notch above an Orange 2nd Gen Camaro that normally runs with a car number of 99. If there were classes, I think he would have finished 3rd in class.

After the Road America event he did a lot of work on his car to make it show better in the D&E segment. Since, I wasn't in Las Vegas I haven't seen what improvements he has done. If my memory serves me right when he was at Texas back in March, I believe he had a dash like what Indy Dave calls a Saturday night Bracket Racer dash.

[Dusold]

The interior of my car is still temporary. The car has been a work in progress all year. The intent from the beginning has been to have a cool interior. That is the project for this winter, among other things like finishing the aero.

[mpozzi]

I think I'm pretty sure . Actually, Mike Dusold finished 13th in the Design & Engineering segment, 1 notch above an Orange 2nd Gen Camaro that normally runs with a car number of 99.

I'm kind of surprised on that part too. There were a lot of cars that had much more done to them in both Design and Engineering than mine had ...

I wasn't at the Pikes Peak event but heard from several that were and the main consensus was that Mike D. took it in the shorts for D&E there. He'd have won GTL easy had those judging scores been higher but with some of the Design stuff not completed, I can see their view point. Personally, I really liked the "Rat Rod" Camaro as that rough and tumble look "makes" the car. It gives it personality and especially so because the car can get results!!! There's cattle along with that hat ...

To me, finishing that high up (13th) at this year's OUSCI isn't "taking it in the shorts." He did great ...

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

I think you misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with the late models, in fact we participated in the CAM east event in our FS prepped '15 Mustang and had a blast. My point was, there would be less confusion if the rules were consistent across the 3 classes regarding windshields, floor coverings, etc.

Regarding National status for CAM, no thanks. I don't intend that to detract from your impressive win at Nationals, I just think that jacket status will be bad for CAM overall. (see USCA's evolution over the past years) I would rather see more CAM Challenge events added to the schedule and forget about Nationals. Let CAM be it's own thing within SCCA and it will thrive. I also say all this, fully intending to run in CAM-T next year.

I see where you are going with this and agree. While I most likely won't be attending next year's Nationals in the Camaro (I say "most likely" as that gives me an out in case I do change my mind ... and I sometimes do), I'll be supporting CAM locally and at the Challenges here on the Left Coast.

Mary P.

[chetly]

That might be questioned but would have a better chance of being ok'd than just bare or painted metal floor.

Mary P.

Reason I ask is Brian's Camaro is just that. I wouldn't call that a race car interior. It looks very finished and professional.

[nokones]

That might be questioned but would have a better chance of being ok'd than just bare or painted metal floor.

Mary P.

Reason I ask is Brian's Camaro is just that. I wouldn't call that a race car interior. It looks very finished and professional.

Was Brian's Camaro one of Mary's old Camaros many years ago? Mary? Brian? When I first started running my ESP 90 1LE Camaro back in 1990, I think Brian ran that same Camaro in ESP and it used to be painted Brown. Brian, am I correct on that?

[mpozzi]

Was Brian's Camaro one of Mary's old Camaros many years ago? Mary? Brian? When I first started running my ESP 90 1LE Camaro back in 1990, I think Brian ran that same Camaro in ESP and it used to be painted Brown. Brian, am I correct on that?

You started out correct and then it went south from there. Yes, I once owned that car. No, it was never autocrossed in ESP nor was never painted brown.

Mary P.

[mpozzi]

Reason I ask is Brian's Camaro is just that. I wouldn't call that a race car interior. It looks very finished and professional.

I haven't looked at his car very close. From what I remember, the door panels probably are okay. Not sure about the dash and IP.

Mary.

[nokones]

You started out correct and then it went south from there. Yes, I once owned that car. No, it was never autocrossed in ESP nor was never painted brown.

Mary P.

Maybe it was a different 2nd Gen Camaro back then.

[GrabberGT]

So then by that logic, race cars are allowed in Cam S because they don't have floor covering? But wait, all cars competing in CAM must be street legal, so carpet is required in all cars! Except race cars which don't have carpet and because carpet is not required in Cam S race cars must be allowed?

I gotta say, that is a stupid rule. I can see why you argued against it! Leave it to SCCA to say in 100 words what could be covered in 10.

Agreed. CAM is a street car class. Not sure why the Sports cars would not be required to follow suit. This rule does however give us a clue as to the meaning of floor covering. CAM-S says "Interior floor covering may be removed" Therefore where CAM-C and CAM-T are concerned, "floor covering" is something removable.

There is way to much left open to interpretation in these rules. Just draw the line in the sand already.

[chetly]

I haven't looked at his car very close. From what I remember, the door panels probably are okay. Not sure about the dash and IP.

Mary.

Door panels are complete with relifes for the roll cage. Dash is a complete one piece fiberglass stock apearing dash. Just doesn't have a radio or heater controls in it.

[73CPCAMARO]

According to the way the rules are written, I am not legal. I have been told that is not the intent. The rules are very poorly written.

119517119518

[GrabberGT]

According to the way the rules are written, I am not legal. I have been told that is not the intent. The rules are very poorly written.



Looks like the only thing keeping you from being legal is the absence of floor covering. You should still be able to put a spanking on the CAM-S guys though. There is nothing unfinished looking about your car. (door-windows???)

[73CPCAMARO]

Looks like the only thing keeping you from being legal is the absence of floor covering. You should still be able to put a spanking on the CAM-S guys though. There is nothing unfinished looking about your car. (door-windows???)

I was going to put in windows, but at this point, not worth running this car in CAM until they figure out the rules.

[mpozzi]

I was going to put in windows, but at this point, not worth running this car in CAM until they figure out the rules.

I think you're fine, Brian.

[nokones]

The way the rules are written, don't you need a cigarette lighter and ash tray to make your CAM car street legal?

[TheJDMan]

The way the rules are written, don't you need a cigarette lighter and ash tray to make your CAM car street legal?

It does seem like some of the rules are that nit-picky doesn't it.

[SSLance]

I wouldn't protest Brian's car if it showed up at an event I was at mainly because the interior is very nicely finished in my opinion. That said, someone else who is butt hurt after getting beat by Brian might protest it because of the lack of door windows or possibly floor covering (if running in T).

Edit: I should add that I'm assuming the rest of the car is street legal and actually street driveable (charging system, holds more than 5 gallons of fuel, windshield wipers, lights etc).

[mpozzi]

I wouldn't protest Brian's car if it showed up at an event I was at mainly because the interior is very nicely finished in my opinion. That said, someone else who is butt hurt after getting beat by Brian might protest it because of the lack of door windows or possibly floor covering (if running in T).

Welcome to Nationals, Lance.

We've seen someone close to DFL protest another that's finished ahead just to move up a place. Competitors have been protested (and it was upheld, too ...) for a steering wheel that was one quarter of an inch to small in diameter. SCCA nowadays calls a lot of these types of protests, nuisance protests but if they do fulfill the parameters of the class rules then they're obviously upheld.

Not all classes are as bad as what I've described but some are. And it takes just one arsehole to throw paper down ...

Hell ... we've had some that intentionally waited until Nationals to protest a car. They've let it run unmolested all year, let the car/driver make their runs, and then blasted it off the Tarmac. The days of gently taking someone aside at a regional event early in the year and saying ... "Ummm, you might want to fix that." don't always happen.

Mary

[nokones]

I'm hoping that CAM doesn't have any of that Brown bull stuff going on. With the minimum rules in CAM there is not much to protest on and I am glad about that. Really, let's just race and swap lies, have some fun, and swap some more lies. If there are protests flying at an event for some of the stuff that I have seen over the years that just doesn't make it fun for everyone. Then everyone starts to get defensive and that takes the fun factor out. If you have a concern with a particular modification on someone's car, talk to them about it. If that guy becomes a donut hole about it, then just go out there and beat him on the track. Leave the protesting to the little kitty cats. In short time, people like that eventually will go away because they usually don't have any friends. There should be a rule that Little Kitty Cats are not allowed in CAM.

As for the dashboards that were posted on this discussion, they all look kool. Also, I don't care if Brian runs with or without his windows, it won't change the price of corn in Iowa. Brian will be fast with or without the windows and so will all the kool dashboards.

[SSLance]

I've been told stories about things like this were handled in CP over the years...and I like it. Given how many of the old CPers are looking at the CAM class for a fun place to play, hopefully that feeling comes over with them.

[IndyDave]

is floor covering specifically stated as carpet or if you rhino lined the interior would that be a finished look? I can understand the bare metal floors not being legal because it goes along with the finished look not a race car look reasons.

No on linings, I tried to argue for it as it is a covering more substantial than paint but was shot down. It has to be carpet or similar covering.

[nokones]

I've been told stories about things like this were handled in CP over the years...and I like it. Given how many of the old CPers are looking at the CAM class for a fun place to play, hopefully that feeling comes over with them.

Yes, the CP guys got that squared away many years ago going all the way back to the 90s. I guess they would take away all CP partying and bus ride privileges from anyone that would want to file a protest. Back in the 90's they were a couple of ESP guys that would threaten to file a protest on each other but, there was never any paper filed. It probably was just a head game between those two. Those two finally moved on.

Then after those two moved on some of the ESP Mustang guys use to come to me and start sniveling about the wing or something petty on another Mustang. I would tell them don't worry about the other guy. Just get in your car, worry about yourself, tighten your belts up real tight, and just beat them on the course and not in a motorhome whining to a committee of a few people about someone else car. It sets a poor image of the entire group.

It would be fun to have some of the CP guys in CAM. We probably would have to get a CAM bus thing going at Nationals. Maybe my son-in-law and daughter will start running his CAM car at the nationals instead of Frank Stagnaro's Mustang.

[IndyDave]

i'm hoping that cam doesn't have any of that brown bull stuff going on. With the minimum rules in cam there is not much to protest on and i am glad about that. Really, let's just race and swap lies, have some fun, and swap some more lies. If there are protests flying at an event for some of the stuff that i have seen over the years that just doesn't make it fun for everyone. Then everyone starts to get defensive and that takes the fun factor out. If you have a concern with a particular modification on someone's car, talk to them about it. If that guy becomes a donut hole about it, then just go out there and beat him on the track. Leave the protesting to the little kitty cats. In short time, people like that eventually will go away because they usually don't have any friends. There should be a rule that little kitty cats are not allowed in cam.

As for the dashboards that were posted on this discussion, they all look kool. Also, i don't care if brian runs with or without his windows, it won't change the price of corn in iowa. Brian will be fast with or without the windows and so will all the kool dashboards.

a freakin' men!!!!!!

[73CPCAMARO]

No on linings, I tried to argue for it as it is a covering more substantial than paint but was shot down. It has to be carpet or similar covering.

I'm out! I guess my Camaro that finished 2nd and 3rd at OUSCI, won a few Goodguys Autocrosses, featured in numerous articles, cameo in Fast 6, generally loved by many, is not good enough for SCCA CAM class. Hopefully, SCCA will get their head out of the sand and open their eyes to not just my car, but so many cool cars that they are not allowing due to carpet. WOW! When you are building your hot rod, don't forget the carpet!

[HandOverFist]

If I wanted to play I would throw a few pieces of carpet in with velcro.

[nokones]

Brian - If I read the rules correctly, you can run your hotrod in CAM-S. Any SCCA God or Goddess, please correct me if I am wrong on this interpretation.

[73CPCAMARO]

Brian - If I read the rules correctly, you can run your hotrod in CAM-S. Any SCCA God or Goddess, please correct me if I am wrong on this interpretation.

Thank you, but no.

[tlillard23]

I was going to put in windows, but at this point, not worth running this car in CAM until they figure out the rules.

Pretty much we cant do anything to our cars 'cause the rules will be different next week. Bring your protest money to the next event, any modified car is getting the axe.

[Dusold]

Am I correct that if Brian ran a CAM event everything would be fine unless someone protested his car? If so I can't think of anyone who would do that over something silly like carpet. I know I wouldn't.

[nokones]

If anyone protest someone like Brian to make them correct whatever minor thing that was protested, all you're going to is make them driver faster. It usually happens that way because the protestee will be on a mission from hell.

[dontlifttoshift]

Nobody protests anything, they just whine about it on facetube after the event.

(insert huge smiley face here so that everyone knows that it is sarcasm and you should read it with a smile on your face)

[nokones]

I know that CAM can't have a rule that prohibits protests so I am wondering if CAM can have a non-refundable protest fee of let's say $5,000 and only a CAM competitor can file a protest. That should stop any protests.

[HandOverFist]

I know that CAM can't have a rule that prohibits protests so I am wondering if CAM can have a non-refundable protest fee of let's say $5,000 and only a CAM competitor can file a protest. That should stop any protests.

Ok...and if the car protested is found illegal the competitor forfeits their car. That should stop any illegal entries. :hmm:

[SSLance]

Nobody protests anything, they just whine about it on facetube after the event.

(insert huge smiley face here so that everyone knows that it is sarcasm and you should read it with a smile on your face)

I laughed... :D

[71RS/SS396]

Nobody protests anything, they just whine about it on facetube after the event.

(insert huge smiley face here so that everyone knows that it is sarcasm and you should read it with a smile on your face)

Ha! and the rules infraction whined about will have no performance advantage. :razz:

[nokones]

Ok...and if the car protested is found illegal the competitor forfeits their car. That should stop any illegal entries. :hmm:

Since, there are no performance enhancing rules, how can anything be illegal? Since there is a minimum weight rule, and that is enforced, what difference does it make if you have carpeting in your car. That is a cosmetic or a personal thing not a performance thing, and again, there are no limiting performance rules. Carpeting or no carpeting or the style of dashboard will not make a difference in your times on course or change the price of potatoes in Idaho.

Ok, lets have a Design and Engineering segment like Optima so you can earn style points for your overall standings for the event? I know that will open a different can of worms and having competitors judge your car but, I believe it can be made to work just like Optima. But, do we need to do that? I don't think so but, I am not against it if it is done fairly.

My opinion is lets just race our hot rods and have fun and not worry about the small stuff. If you want to be a little kitty cat and worry about the small stuff maybe CAM isn't a place for you. You can always go back to Street Touring, buy a car that came over on a boat, and protest all you want about the small stuff and make your friends there. No CAM bus ride or party for you.

Bring out your hot rods with or without your carpeting and side windows, its your choice to do so and that is what hot rodding is all about, have fun swapping the lies and showing off your car.

Lets race and have fun. So, with all that being said, when and where are the CAM Challenges next year?

[HandOverFist]

Since, there are no performance enhancing rules, how can anything be illegal? Since there is a minimum weight rule, and that is enforced, what difference does it make if you have carpeting in your car. That is a cosmetic or a personal thing not a performance thing, and again, there are no limiting performance rules. Carpeting or no carpeting or the style of dashboard will not make a difference in your times on course or change the price of potatoes in Idaho.

Ok, lets have a Design and Engineering segment like Optima so you can earn style points for your overall standings for the event? I know that will open a different can of worms and having competitors judge your car but, I believe it can be made to work just like Optima. But, do we need to do that? I don't think so but, I am not against it if it is done fairly.

My opinion is lets just race our hot rods and have fun and not worry about the small stuff. If you want to be a little kitty cat and worry about the small stuff maybe CAM isn't a place for you. You can always go back to Street Touring, buy a car that came over on a boat, and protest all you want about the small stuff and make your friends there. No CAM bus ride or party for you.

Bring out your hot rods with or without your carpeting and side windows, its your choice to do so and that is what hot rodding is all about, have fun swapping the lies and showing off your car.

Lets race and have fun. So, with all that being said, when and where are the CAM Challenges next year?


I know that CAM can't have a rule that prohibits protests so I am wondering if CAM can have a non-refundable protest fee of let's say $5,000 and only a CAM competitor can file a protest. That should stop any protests.

My post was a parody to your ridiculous previous post...:screwy: If nothing can be illegal then why is there a protest procedure in place? If you really want to race why not add a little carpet to the mix as required by current rules? You yourself stated it has no advantages or disadvantages. If you really want to affect changes you should be writing the sanctioning body instead of "kitty cat" whining on forums.

[IndyDave]

I'm out! I guess my Camaro that finished 2nd and 3rd at OUSCI, won a few Goodguys Autocrosses, featured in numerous articles, cameo in Fast 6, generally loved by many, is not good enough for SCCA CAM class. Hopefully, SCCA will get their head out of the sand and open their eyes to not just my car, but so many cool cars that they are not allowing due to carpet. WOW! When you are building your hot rod, don't forget the carpet!

I agree with what you are saying 100%. CAM should not be legislating how anyone builds their hot rod except for its legality as a true street car (I.E. registered & insured, all working street equipment such as horn, wipers, lights, turn signals etc). Brian, I would ask you to express your concerns to Raleigh Boreen. I can relay concerns but it has more impact coming from those affected directly.

I want to point out to everyone else that Brian built his Camaro as a street legal C Prepared car before CAM existed. Some of the rules creep CAM is already seeing is to keep "race cars" out of the category. In order for the "race cars' to play in CAM, they have to be returned to a true street legal status which means they would need to emulate Brian's Camaro. As Brian has pointed out, his Camaro has run in other series without issue so he should be welcomed in CAM. Look at the photos of his interior, does the lack of carpet make any difference at all? Does it make it any less of a street car?

[IndyDave]

Since, there are no performance enhancing rules, how can anything be illegal? Since there is a minimum weight rule, and that is enforced, what difference does it make if you have carpeting in your car. That is a cosmetic or a personal thing not a performance thing, and again, there are no limiting performance rules. Carpeting or no carpeting or the style of dashboard will not make a difference in your times on course or change the price of potatoes in Idaho.

Ok, lets have a Design and Engineering segment like Optima so you can earn style points for your overall standings for the event? I know that will open a different can of worms and having competitors judge your car but, I believe it can be made to work just like Optima. But, do we need to do that? I don't think so but, I am not against it if it is done fairly.

My opinion is lets just race our hot rods and have fun and not worry about the small stuff. If you want to be a little kitty cat and worry about the small stuff maybe CAM isn't a place for you. You can always go back to Street Touring, buy a car that came over on a boat, and protest all you want about the small stuff and make your friends there. No CAM bus ride or party for you.

Bring out your hot rods with or without your carpeting and side windows, its your choice to do so and that is what hot rodding is all about, have fun swapping the lies and showing off your car.

Lets race and have fun. So, with all that being said, when and where are the CAM Challenges next year?

KENNY MITCHEL FOR PRESIDENT! Well said. The Challenge schedule will be out by PRI. I do know when CAM East is but have been asked to not say anything. I will say it will be a little earlier than the 2015 event.

[nokones]

Since, there are no performance enhancing rules, how can anything be illegal? Since there is a minimum weight rule, and that is enforced, what difference does it make if you have carpeting in your car. That is a cosmetic or a personal thing not a performance thing, and again, there are no limiting performance rules. Carpeting or no carpeting or the style of dashboard will not make a difference in your times on course or change the price of potatoes in Idaho.

Ok, lets have a Design and Engineering segment like Optima so you can earn style points for your overall standings for the event? I know that will open a different can of worms and having competitors judge your car but, I believe it can be made to work just like Optima. But, do we need to do that? I don't think so but, I am not against it if it is done fairly.

My opinion is lets just race our hot rods and have fun and not worry about the small stuff. If you want to be a little kitty cat and worry about the small stuff maybe CAM isn't a place for you. You can always go back to Street Touring, buy a car that came over on a boat, and protest all you want about the small stuff and make your friends there. No CAM bus ride or party for you.

Bring out your hot rods with or without your carpeting and side windows, its your choice to do so and that is what hot rodding is all about, have fun swapping the lies and showing off your car.

Lets race and have fun. So, with all that being said, when and where are the CAM Challenges next year?


I know that CAM can't have a rule that prohibits protests so I am wondering if CAM can have a non-refundable protest fee of let's say $5,000 and only a CAM competitor can file a protest. That should stop any protests.

My post was a parody to your ridiculous previous post...:screwy: If nothing can be illegal then why is there a protest procedure in place? If you really want to race why not add a little carpet to the mix as required by current rules? You yourself stated it has no advantages or disadvantages. If you really want to affect changes you should be writing the sanctioning body instead of "kitty cat" whining on forums.

No whining from me, just commenting with other posters. I very well know how to affect changes to the rules since I use to serve on a national committee and I was the chair of that committee for several years so I know how business is conducted within SCCA. CAM is supposed to be about and a place for hot rodding your hot rod. SCCA never had a class like CAM before to accommodate a hot rod built car because there would always be a rule that would prevent you from being creative and make the car out of compliance. It should be up to the Hot rodders if he/she has carpeting and/or just coated or painted floors.

C'mon who cares if it has carpeting, does it really matter? If it does,I believe you're in the wrong group and not a true hot rodder. The SCCA rules have prevented people like the Mike Dusold of the world in being creative in building a car with no limits and from autocrossing your pride and joy.

Also, I don't need the carpet rule changed because I "choose" to have carpeting and a full interior in my hot rod. I just don't think it is necessary for CAM if the philosophy of CAM is to hot rod your hot rod and I think just because somebody doesn't have carpeting should be excluded. I don't believe in excluding someone in CAM over something of that nature. The only thing that should be excluded in CAM is a non-american car.

It appears to me that you want to be in a position to protest someone on something like carpeting or some other similar rule. Well, I guess that is in your right so feel free to go ahead and do what you need to do. You may feel more at home in Street Touring if you want to protest someone in order to move up in the standings for your poor performance on the course.

[mpozzi]

I agree with what you are saying 100%. CAM should not be legislating how anyone builds their hot rod except for its legality as a true street car (I.E. registered & insured, all working street equipment such as horn, wipers, lights, turn signals etc). Brian, I would ask you to express your concerns to Raleigh Boreen. I can relay concerns but it has more impact coming from those affected directly.

I want to point out to everyone else that Brian built his Camaro as a street legal C Prepared car before CAM existed. Some of the rules creep CAM is already seeing is to keep "race cars" out of the category. In order for the "race cars' to play in CAM, they have to be returned to a true street legal status which means they would need to emulate Brian's Camaro. As Brian has pointed out, his Camaro has run in other series without issue so he should be welcomed in CAM. Look at the photos of his interior, does the lack of carpet make any difference at all? Does it make it any less of a street car?

I agree with everything positive that's been said about Brian's Camaro but concerning carpet or "floor covering," where to you draw this line? If the car's CAM eligible yet is a POS and doesn't have carpet, it also doesn't meet CAM Rules and will get tossed if protested? If the car's nicely built yet doesn't have carpet, it gets a mulligan and is able to still compete? I see CAM becoming more difficult to enforce with the current set of Rules as there are so many variables that may, or may not, trigger protest paper and money. And I see Brian's point as if you take the letter of the Rules, not the spirit, a lot of the cars that now compete are done.

What once seemed to be a very fun place to run my car has turned sour. A lot of the posts just on this thread are mystifying and I wonder if some serious psychedelics or consumption of alcoholic libations preceded fingers on a keyboard. Perhaps having Classic American Muscle NOT be a SCCA Nationals class isn't such a bad idea as at the Regional level, folks get along well and play nice in their respective sandboxes.

Mary Pozzi

[HandOverFist]

No whining from me, just commenting with other posters. I very well know how to affect changes to the rules since I use to serve on a national committee and I was the chair of that committee for several years so I know how business is conducted within SCCA. CAM is supposed to be about and a place for hot rodding your hot rod. SCCA never had a class like CAM before to accommodate a hot rod built car because there would always be a rule that would prevent you from being creative and make the car out of compliance. It should be up to the Hot rodders if he/she has carpeting and/or just coated or painted floors.

C'mon who cares if it has carpeting, does it really matter? If it does,I believe you're in the wrong group and not a true hot rodder. The SCCA rules have prevented people like the Mike Dusold of the world in being creative in building a car with no limits and from autocrossing your pride and joy.

Also, I don't need the carpet rule changed because I "choose" to have carpeting and a full interior in my hot rod. I just don't think it is necessary for CAM if the philosophy of CAM is to hot rod your hot rod and I think just because somebody doesn't have carpeting should be excluded. I don't believe in excluding someone in CAM over something of that nature. The only thing that should be excluded in CAM is a non-american car.

It appears to me that you want to be in a position to protest someone on something like carpeting or some other similar rule. Well, I guess that is in your right so feel free to go ahead and do what you need to do. You may feel more at home in Street Touring if you want to protest someone in order to move up in the standings for your poor performance on the course.

You make assumptions without merit. I have no need or desire to protest anyone, especially over something as silly as carpet. The problem is when someone deems their entry as legal when by the rule book it clearly isnt and expect all to turn a blind eye. Get the rules changed and everyone on the same page. Rules violations are like mission creep...it seldom stops at one. I've dealt with this crap for years in NHRA.

[IndyDave]

I agree with everything positive that's been said about Brian's Camaro but concerning carpet or "floor covering," where to you draw this line? If the car's CAM eligible yet is a POS and doesn't have carpet, it also doesn't meet CAM Rules and will get tossed if protested? If the car's nicely built yet doesn't have carpet, it gets a mulligan and is able to still compete? I see CAM becoming more difficult to enforce with the current set of Rules as there are so many variables that may, or may not, trigger protest paper and money. And I see Brian's point as if you take the letter of the Rules, not the spirit, a lot of the cars that now compete are done.

What once seemed to be a very fun place to run my car has turned sour. A lot of the posts just on this thread are mystifying and I wonder if some serious psychedelics or consumption of alcoholic libations preceded fingers on a keyboard. Perhaps having Classic American Muscle NOT be a SCCA Nationals class isn't such a bad idea as at the Regional level, folks get along well and play nice in their respective sandboxes.

Mary Pozzi

This is why I think CAM should not be granted "National" status, there's no upside. Looking at it from the perspective of a Regional Executive, I don't see any benefit of CAM being a National Category. It won't help participation at the events my Region puts on. As a competitor and hot rodder, I'm already frustrated because if the letter of the current rules are followed, then the new car I'm building is not going to be CAM legal over issues that won't affect the car's performance one iota yet would compromise the cohesiveness of the theme of the car. As a supporter I see the current rules telling a good number of potential participants that they are not welcome before anyone can get to them and say "Don't worry about it, you're good to go to run with us". Making CAM a "National" category isn't going to help with those potentials.

When I wrote the rules for SMC (the template for CAM) I envisioned nothing more than a welcoming place for hot rodders / PT folk at our events. The growth of CAM has been awesome without it being a National category. I think the SCCA is sending some mixed signals with the Invitational and supplemental classes at the Solo Nats. But, the reason for the Invitational and the supplemental classes is due to Speedway Motors wanting to be more involved with SCCA and CAM gave them a venue to do that and reach a target market for them. As matter of fact, according to the SCCA, the CAM Challenge Series are Speedway Motors events, SCCA just provides sanctioning and support. Being at the first CAM Invitational and the first CAM East event the atmosphere was what I think CAM should be all about. It's about fun, camaraderie, and light hearted competition. I was disheartened to learn of the issues at the Invitational this year. Especially after the epic time had at CAM East. The Nationals atmosphere had infiltrated our ranks. If it became that contentious at an Invitational, really, a show to bring attention to CAM and to SCCA Pro-Solo, I really don't like what that could mean for CAM if it becomes a National category.

CAM is supposed to attract people who otherwise not consider SCCA Solo events or have been chased off by SCCA rules that place there very personal creations into classes where they forced to run against gutted full tilt race cars. CAM shouldn't begin to cater to a handful of SCCA'ers who see a new potential opportunity to go for a "jacket".

[73CPCAMARO]

:twothumbs

[Rat Fink]

Ouch! My Brain hurts with all of this carpet and dash talk. I just want to drive my old Ford too fast and have fun, if you are faster than me congrats, you beat a land barge. If you are slower than me, stick with it and have fun 'cause I sure am! I realize for some of you this is pretty serious, buy I think the idea of the class is a good time with fast cars. Come out and enjoy your car by driving it, I'll be the idiot having a ball in the big red 59 Ford!

[SSLance]

CAM shouldn't begin to cater to a handful of SCCA'ers who see a new potential opportunity to go for a "jacket".


How many potential cars are affected by the carpet, dash and door panel rules vs those not? Tim and Brian are the two I see caught in the middle right now and are speaking up while there are a great many more with real full interiors that aren't speaking up and a handful I'm certain that are completely outlawed by the updated rules who haven't spoke up yet either.

I see no way for the sanctioning body to make everyone happy here. I'll take the 2016 rules as they are and hope CAM continues on as a supplemental class. Can't wait to see the Challenge schedule to see how many I can make it to this year.

[hotrodalex]

Perhaps having Classic American Muscle NOT be a SCCA Nationals class isn't such a bad idea as at the Regional level, folks get along well and play nice in their respective sandboxes.

Mary Pozzi

That seems to be the best solution.

[tlillard23]

Unless you happen to build your CAM car with abs and traction control, and a year later you cant run it (yes. Whining because i just got the dammmm abs/tcs system working, after 3 years of tinkering)
And unfirtunately it uses electronic brake bias, so pulling the fuse kills the rear bias.... Fkn rulz
Hope they dont outlaw A/c, cruise control or cupholders

[SSLance]

You can still run it...you just have to run with all of the other cars with ABS and traction control. I've raced with them the last two years...without ABS and traction control, it's not that bad. Still better than racing against AWD turbo cars on slicks.

[FASTURN]

Sure seems like this post has turned into alot more whining by people that are worried about people whining.
1. Can't Brian's corvette run in CAM-S? Last line says " Interior floor coverings can be removed."
2. Guys with ABS no matter what kind year of car can run in CAM-C or in CAM-S?
3. What is wrong with the few rules we have, every where in life there are rules.
4. I never heard of "submitting a protest" until now, the few rules we have can be done during tech, make sure cars are classed correctly , weigh during tech and then after eliminations.....simple.
5. We all end up running on an index so it evens the field out...somewhat.
6. I think that if they would give TOP ELIMINTOR in each class it would help with us average joes having a better chance at some hardware.

[j-rho]

Just mandate a minimum front weight. The carpet, lexan, and weird new seat position rule are all trying to treat symptoms instead of the problem. For CAM-T:
Minimum weight 3000
Minimum front weight 1600
Minimum wheelbase and width
No aero, ABS, traction control
Weight penalty for IRS (initially) but thematically that list grows to include other elaborate non-mainstream performance improving updates on an ongoing basis.
Done.

Maybe people only drive during the day (no lights) and in the dry (no wipers). Don't need those rules, just the 5 above. Might get some current CP cars to cross over in the process.

Hope the gang is able to find a happy place soon.

[tlillard23]

I regularly drive my car to work/groceries/out to eat. Rain or shine, day and night...It's a 1966 GTO, I run in CAM-T with ABS *for 2015. no I cant run in cam c or cam-s. I am only hoping more rules dont get added, it was fun as-is. The cam challenge was great, the season has been fun. I bought a boat trailer to haul my car, thought it was appropriate....why stomp on an open class wih **** rules.
J. Rhoades - You wana add cruise to the list of must haves? Leave the class alone, stop taking the fun out of building and racing a street car. Thats why I got out of ESP, the rules were too restrictive for my daily driver (97 trans am at the time)


Sure seems like this post has turned into alot more whining by people that are worried about people whining.
1. Can't Brian's corvette run in CAM-S? Last line says " Interior floor coverings can be removed."
2. Guys with ABS no matter what kind year of car can run in CAM-C or in CAM-S?
3. What is wrong with the few rules we have, every where in life there are rules.
4. I never heard of "submitting a protest" until now, the few rules we have can be done during tech, make sure cars are classed correctly , weigh during tech and then after eliminations.....simple.
5. We all end up running on an index so it evens the field out...somewhat.
6. I think that if they would give TOP ELIMINTOR in each class it would help with us average joes having a better chance at some hardware.


You can still run it...you just have to run with all of the other cars with ABS and traction control. I've raced with them the last two years...without ABS and traction control, it's not that bad. Still better than racing against AWD turbo cars on slicks.

[TheJDMan]

CAM seems to be a hot button topic all over.

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48528

[j-rho]

J. Rhoades - You wana add cruise to the list of must haves? Leave the class alone, stop taking the fun out of building and racing a street car. Thats why I got out of ESP, the rules were too restrictive for my daily driver (97 trans am at the time)
Things like aero, ABS, and traction control could be allowed - maybe just with a weight penalty. Most of these old rides end up being 33-3400+lbs. With a weight penalty of ~200 pounds for each of those uncommon mods, people running at that high a weight would have that weight to "spend" on doing non-mainstream stuff if they so chose.

Revised suggestion:
Minimum weight 3000
Minimum front weight 1600
Minimum wheelbase and width
200tw tires
A la carte optional extras, +200lbs. each:
Aero, ABS, traction control, IRS

At that point, might as well combine CAM-T and CAM-C, nothing to really differentiate them

[rrunner68]

I still don't see why we don't just make a class for cars using factory:
-frames
-spring type
-suspension mounting provisions
-powerplant architecture/generation as produced
-factory body construction materials (minus hoods)

All others; unlimited...go nuts.
Let the low buck chucks compete and get creative, let the composite, tube chassis, AME/DSE/Schwartz, coilover, LS/coyote/3Gen dudes brawl it out. It's so simple it's painful to watch everyone over think this stuff.

[Tomswheels]

The weird thing is some of the best/closest racing in the whole San Diego SCCA region this year came between two completely different CAM-T cars (A DSE/Ridetech equipped LS3 First gen and a Torsion barred leaf sprung pushrods Valiant), and a CAM-S car (Mustang II nicely setup and driven). Most events we were within 3/10ths of each other's best lap. Great fun, and no rhyme or reason as to why they were so close...

[FMK]

[QUOTE=rrunner68;1162943]I still don't see why we don't just make a class for cars using factory:
-frames
-spring type
-suspension mounting provisions
-powerplant architecture/generation as produced
-factory body construction materials (minus hoods)

ESP?

[Chad-1stGen]

The weird thing is some of the best/closest racing in the whole San Diego SCCA region this year came between two completely different CAM-T cars (A TCI equipped LS3 First gen and a Torsion barred leaf sprung pushrods Valiant), and a CAM-S car (Mustang II nicely setup and driven). Most events we were within 3/10ths of each other's best lap. Great fun, and no rhyme or reason as to why they were so close...

Edited the suspension part. SDR CAM have a great group of folks. I think the reason the times are so close is that despite very different car setups driver talent is a great equalizer!

[rrunner68]

[QUOTE=rrunner68;1162943]I still don't see why we don't just make a class for cars using factory:
-frames
-spring type
-suspension mounting provisions
-powerplant architecture/generation as produced
-factory body construction materials (minus hoods)

ESP?

I did ESP for years in my Road Runner before CAM was invented because it was where the car fell as a NOC. It's tough to be competitive with 45 years of suspension tech in between the 2 cars. With the cars that are currently classed in ESP as the little sticky tired AWD monsters that they are, I think it's missing the mark for our old junky cars. The CAM deal is good, those ESP cars have their class, we are a big enough segment of the hobby the rate our own. In SDR CAM regularly is a huge piece of the field, and had been for some time when we moved from ESP to SU after a push for ESP-V failed regionally; and I stole that idea from CAL CLUB back in 2010ish; as a I ran a few events from them and they had the participation to make it work.
Simply put, 2 classes, CAM; with the rules above, and CAM-P with the latter unlimited rule set. EASY.

[nokones]

CAM is only two years old and I believe CAM will grow leaps and bounds and when it grows the classes will evolve accordingly. I'm sure there will be more classes in time. If SCCA keeps the rules simple and not exclude anyone I think we may see some of the older ASP, BSP, and ESP cars of all makes and their drivers that use to autocross back in the 80's and 90's wanting to bring their hot rods out. There are still a lot of the older Mopar, Ford, and GM autocross cars that are still around with the their respective drivers. Most of the older guys/cars stop running SCCA because of they didn't want to run with non-american cars in their class and because of the performance rules were too limiting. With the introduction of CAM I think this will change their minds, it has changed my mind.

Last year, a couple of old BP and CP guys were excited about CAM. A couple of the BP guys told me that they were going to put their old BP cars back to streetable and run CAM. I think in Northern California we may see about 15-20 CAM cars, at least at the American Autocross Series events. I'm not sure about if that many cars will attend the SCCA events.

Cal Club had a CAM type class for many year going all the way back, I believe the late 80's, and that class was very successful and well attended class. I believe they called it Street Modified (SM) and the San Francisco Region had the same type of class called Open Street Prepared (OSP). Essentially, the rules were the same as what CAM is today.

The American Autocross Series (AAS) has a vintage class for the older BSP Corvettes C1-C3's and that class was very successful. It is called BSP-V but, if my memory serves me right there were a few limiting rules such as the tire and I think there was a camshaft limitation. Hey BSP-V guys/gals feel free and correct me here on what were some of the BSP-V rules.

It is great to see that the Muscle and Pony cars are not dead and they are still autocrossing. I'm glad that there are the Detroit Speeds, Speedway, Schwartz, and Ridetechs of the world being involved in autcrossing and manufacturing the parts so we can make our cars fast and/or look really fast with the kool parts.

[Cobra 498]

Speaking of CAM and SpeedWay.......


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=JgHo19bbB6w

[HandOverFist]

Speaking of CAM and SpeedWay.......


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=JgHo19bbB6w

That is a great video!

[FASTURN]

I still don't see why we don't just make a class for cars using factory:
-frames
-spring type
-suspension mounting provisions
-powerplant architecture/generation as produced
-factory body construction materials (minus hoods)

All others; unlimited...go nuts.
Let the low buck chucks compete and get creative, let the composite, tube chassis, AME/DSE/Schwartz, coilover, LS/coyote/3Gen dudes brawl it out. It's so simple it's painful to watch everyone over think this stuff.

Those were my ideas exactly, boy I sure would like to run the green Chllenger against stock location coil spring suspended GM products.....

[IndyDave]

How many potential cars are affected by the carpet, dash and door panel rules vs those not? Tim and Brian are the two I see caught in the middle right now and are speaking up while there are a great many more with real full interiors that aren't speaking up and a handful I'm certain that are completely outlawed by the updated rules who haven't spoke up yet either.

I see no way for the sanctioning body to make everyone happy here. I'll take the 2016 rules as they are and hope CAM continues on as a supplemental class. Can't wait to see the Challenge schedule to see how many I can make it to this year.

Brian and Tim are just examples, we don't know how many potential entries will be turned away by these new rules. The rules are out there and people interested in participating in CAM read these rules and think they etched in stone, they will be turned away if they show to an event. My statement saying CAM shouldn't cater to the handful who want a jacket can also be applied this way: CAM rules shouldn't cater to the handful of people who are invited to the CAM Invitational. CAM, if the stated purpose is to be believed, is to attract people from the hot rod / Pro-Touring world to participate in SCCA events. Taken further, that purpose is to welcome them to Regional (local) events, not the Challenges or the Invitational. Those are out-growths of the strength of regional participation as well as Speedway Motors desire to become more involved with the SCCA Solo program.

I'll say it again, it Goodguy's allows it, CAM should allow it.

[nokones]

Dave, well said. Optima (USCA) will also allow it as Brian has competed in several Optima events with his Camaro. You may not get many style points in the Lingenfelter Design &Engineering segment but, at least you can compete without the fear of being protested and disqualified.

[Cdog]

Who in Cal-Club SCCA can give some info of car build info/rules? I’m a SCCA member and compete in Spec Racer Ford, mainly out of the Southwest Division. My 69 Camaro will most likely be ready to compete (On West Coast) sometime in 2017 if all goes as planned.

120144

[bryant]

The rules change every year. Building a camaro is pretty safe in being able to always fit in the cam traditional class. Its really hard to predict what the 2017 rules will be, but if you build to the 2016 rules, you should be ok for 2017. You might have minor cosmetic changes on interior depending on what you do.

[IndyDave]

Who in Cal-Club SCCA can give some info of car build info/rules? I’m a SCCA member and compete in Spec Racer Ford, mainly out of the Southwest Division. My 69 Camaro will most likely be ready to compete (On West Coast) sometime in 2017 if all goes as planned.

120144

The rules are posted in pdf form in the first post of this thread.

[rrunner68]

Just get license plates, slap carpet in and put some 200tw tires on your SRF. It'll fit in great with all the other purpose built tube chassis cars in CAM, GoodGuys and OUSCI.

[nokones]

Just get license plates, slap carpet in and put some 200tw tires on your SRF. It'll fit in great with all the other purpose built tube chassis cars in CAM, GoodGuys and OUSCI.

Don't forget your lights, wipers, and horn.

[Cdog]

The rules are posted in pdf form in the first post of this thread.


Interesting. .. I didn’t see anything about roll cages?

[Cdog]

Don't forget your lights, wipers, and horn.

LOL! Problem is the 1670 total weight with me in the car. After the Gen3 conversion I’ll loose another 100 lbs.

The SRF class is the most fun I’ve had in racing since I raced karts as a kid.

[Chad-1stGen]

Interesting. .. I didn’t see anything about roll cages?

you are surprised they aren't required or worried they aren't allowed?

[nokones]

you are surprised they aren't required or worried they aren't allowed?

The rule about Roll Bars is located in Section 3.3.2 and Appendix C. If you have one it would be a good idea to have it inspected by a certified SCCA Tech Inspector and get a log book for proof that the bar does meet the rule. Most of the time a regular tech inspector at an autocross event will not have a clue or know what the difference is between a burnt biscuit or an earhole on what to inspect but, if you're lucky enough to have an inspector with knowledge of the rule and wants to do his/her job effectively and enforce the rule, you may in a pickle if the cage/bar is not constructed/designed/installed in accordance with Appendix C.

It only happened once with me that my cage was questioned and I just pointed to the stamp number on the hoop that it was inspected and certified.

[chetly]

Ken, is your car going to be finished for this upcoming season?

[nokones]

Ken, is your car going to be finished for this upcoming season?

I was suppose to pick the car up last Monday but, Lingenfelter had to send the pump back to Aviaid. My guess is the car should be ready next week. The weather is looking good in Michigan for next week so I hope it stays that way.

[Cobra 498]

Should have used Dailey, much better dry sump pump.

[nokones]

Should have used Dailey, much better dry sump pump.

Bruce - There was nothing wrong with the pump. Lingenfelter wanted a different mounting bracket configuration so Aviaid requested the pump be sent back and so they can restacked the pump with different mounting brackets.

[GrabberGT]

Are we still expecting a CAM Challenge announcement this weekend?

[nokones]

Are we still expecting a CAM Challenge announcement this weekend?

I believe Indy Dave said that SCCA was going to announce the dates and locations during PRI which is this Thursday through Saturday.

[GrabberGT]

I believe Indy Dave said that SCCA was going to announce the dates and locations during PRI which is this Thursday through Saturday.

Yeah... Just making sure its still expected. Facebook rumor is there is going to be a Texas location. That would be awesome. There are soo few events anywhere close to Texas.

[nokones]

Yeah... Just making sure its still expected. Facebook rumor is there is going to be a Texas location. That would be awesome. There are soo few events anywhere close to Texas.

I hope there is an event in Texas. I enjoy traveling to Texas. I enjoyed my trip to the Texas Optima event last March. A CAM event in Texas or even in Florida would be places I would travel to. I'm planning to attend the CAM event at Grissom in 2016. What I am able to find out so far is there will be three CAM challenge events, California and Grissom for sure and possibly Florida and this info is about a month or two old. It is very possible that the West CAM Challenge event may be in Southern California possibly at Fontana and not at Crows Landing. I hope that it is at Fontana and not San Diego. The San Diego location use to be one of the best sites on the WestCoast but, the surface at Jack Murphy has turn to crap in the last several years.

[nokones]

Well, SCCA hasn't announced the 2016 CAM dates and locations but, I was able to find out that the CAM West event is scheduled for April 29-May 1. I don't know where the event is being held yet but, it appears to be in Southern California either El Toro or Fontana is my guess. I believe Cal Club has been working on getting access to the old Los Alamitos Naval Air Station and event could be held there. Los Alamitos is near Long Beach but, still in Orange County, barely.

Indy Dave - PRI is almost over with, any word on the dates and sites yet?

[nokones]

News flash - Its going to be Fontana California Speedway.