Advantages of an aftermarket subframe?

[rp0029]

I have a 68 Camaro, on which I'm going to be doing a frame off restoration. It has a stock subframe, aftermarket sway bar, lowering springs, aftermarket shocks, fully adjustable spc upper a-arms, and a taller ball joint. I have LT1 disc brakes on all four corners. I've also got the IROC steering box. Any advantage to ditching all this stuff for an aftermarket subframe? Is it worth it?

My fear is that a lighter subframe would not add much to the handling, would cost a bundle, and would raise the center of gravity, and that it is not worth doing.

Please tell me all your arguments why I am wrong.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

If you are not going to do much autoXing or swapping in an LS motor I would think that what you have is just fine.. you dont need to try to keep up with the Jones' because a lot of guys are doing it.. its just a typical route when they want to take it to the "next level"

this coming from a guy with a slightly modified stock frame AND a Art Morrison chassis.

[rp0029]

Mr. Vengeance I already know all about your bad ass car! Everyone does! It's famous. I do have an LS motor. Actually, an LQ4 with a ZL1 blower on top.

Thanks for the advice.

[rp0029]

Here is my next question - can I run 10" front wheels on the stock subframe?

[TheJDMan]

You need to read up on the 48 Hour Camaro built by Ridetech. Stock subframe with a complete Ridetech suspension upgrade and they run 18x10 wheels up front.

http://www.ridetech.com/48hourcamaro/about/

As for which is better stock or aftermarket it depends on what your goals are for the car's use. The 48 Hour Camaro demonstrates you can build a very capable car with the stock subframe. But the aftermarket subs have some advantages due in large part to the fact that they are designed from the start with better steering geometry and all of them are designed to use rack and pinion steering.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Any advantage to ditching all this stuff for an aftermarket subframe? Is it worth it?

My fear is that a lighter subframe would not add much to the handling, would cost a bundle, and would raise the center of gravity, and that it is not worth doing.

Please tell me all your arguments why I am wrong.

First question, Yes.

2nd question, Wrong, unless you're shopping for drag race subframes.

BUT you have to back up and decide what you're after. The first question we should be asking is what are your plans for the car and your driving style?

The right aftermarket chassis and subframe will make your car handle better than a stock frame, if it is geared for the Pro Touring market. There are several options our there, some aftermarket frames are based on Mustang II suspension. That was designed in the 1970s so use good judgement there if you want modern day handling. The good frames usually include huge geometry improvements, rack and pinion steering, coilover shocks, lighter weight, and a stronger design. We have parts that bolt to a stock subframe and 2 levels of aftermarket frames available, all of which will will greatly improve handling over stock, and all of which we feel are a great value for the price. The parts that bolt to a stock subframe make a huge difference over stock. At a recent Super Chevy Suspension challenge the Nove we brought is a low miles a year show car and cruiser and is set up accordingly. Even so it ran with the best of the group, and was surprisingly close to the times of cars with full race bred suspensions and drivetrains.

Our "Pro Touring" subframe, and upgrade from GM frame bolt ons, has had a winning track record for several years now, has a great deal of geometry improvements and adjustability built in, has high clearance control arms and sway bar for wider tires and improved turning radius, and a rear steer rack and pinion configuration. It has proven itself again and again in cars like ResurreXion, Evade, Blue Hour, Rivision, as well as many, many not as famous cars. This is a great upgrade for folks that want really decent track times besides street driving. This would be a bit overkill for a street driven cruiser though, however a lot of folks like this frame for cruisers simply for the bling factor when they take the car to shows and cruise ins. We sell a lot of 'em.

If you want a street driver that is on KILL mode at the track there's nothing better than our new ExtReme subframe. During the design phase we had Ron Sutton on board and together we hashed out geometry numbers that have never been achieved before and are better than any other suspension system on the market. The whole concept behind this suspension is to take the pro touring world to the next level. On it's first shakedown runs in a recent test our cool cruising 67 C10 pick up with the new ExtReme suspension straight out of the shop with no real tuning and rolling on 300 tread wear street tires calmly smoked a 2015 Z06 through a slalom. At it's first official event, again with street tires and no major tuning yet, the C10 grabbed 1st place in the truck category at a recent GG event and was right on the heals of the top winning cars there. We're looking forward to getting the suspension fine tuned and even better track times. The numbers are there and the real world results are in line with them.

The new ExtReme frame will allow up to an 11" tire with 315s up front, and we've fit a 335 on the front of our 2nd gen test car. Both the first and second gen run a front steer Sweet Rack and pinion, have ultra high clearance arms, a splined sway bar, and come with ATS NEW ExtReme spindles and race valved coilovers all for only $6899. If you want a serious shot at winning a major pro-touring based event this will make sure the car is ready for it.

While you're shopping around we hope you will take a look at and consider what we have to offer too.

GM Frame Suspension systems, Click Here (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=23/mode=cat/cat23.htm)

Speedtech Pro Touring Subframe, Click here (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=8/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd8.htm)

Speedtech ExtReme subframe, Click Here (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=163/mode=cat/cat163.htm)

Here is a pic for a recent ad for the 2nd gen frame, the first gen frame is essentially the same with different body mounting points. Let me know what you want to do with the car and if you have any specific questions about our specific products or aftermarket frames in general.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/09/2ndgen20pair20copy_zpsu3zukj3a-1.jpg

[TBART70]

I have the whole Speedtech coilover front kit on my stock 1970 Camaro chassis. Even without running a high caster number my car drives better than I ever thought. That is with an aluminum head BBC. 275/40/17 front tire. The ride is great, the handling feels good, have not pushed it yet, only 50 miles on the car so far.

[parsonsj]

Any advantage to ditching all this stuff for an aftermarket subframe?Depends. Which aftermarket subframe are you talking about? What are your goals for the car? What kind of budget do you have?

[rp0029]

Car is to be a street car. I doubt I will ever track it, I just want to be able to whip it around freeway overpass curves at breakneck speed.... I have a C7 vette, and while I don't expect that level of handling, I want it to do well. It handles very good now, not like the C7, but still much better than when I started. I just worry about the law of diminished returns. If I were to say, put in the ridetech stuff, coil overs, strong arms, and tru turn (for like 2600), those guys claim it is just about as good as an aftermarket, unless I want a rack and pinion (I see no advantage to that, I'm very happy with my IROC box). So is it worth paying an extra $4k for the subframe upgrade, if my subframe is in decent shape?

[TheJDMan]

There is nothing wrong with using your stock sub provided it has not been damaged in an accident at some point in the past. Typically you will need to remove the stock sub for cleaning and it should have the factory stitch welds filled in to help stiffen it up while it is out. One thing I would recommend is that you do not mix suspension parts from different manufacturers. If you decide on Ridetech suspension buy the complete suspension from Ridetech.

[parsonsj]

So is it worth paying an extra $4k for the subframe upgrade, if my subframe is in decent shape?You've still not told us which subframe you are considering.

[rp0029]

It would probably be either a speedtech or a Chassisworks. I want to use the CA Chassisworks 4 link so if I go that route, I might as well use the same parts for the front.

My left front "horn" of my frame appears to have been damaged (either in a collision or after being used as a wench hook at some point). I need to measure the height of the subframe an check it for squareness. Are there frame shops that can true it up for me?

[TheJDMan]

My left front "horn" of my frame appears to have been damaged (either in a collision or after being used as a wench hook at some point). I need to measure the height of the subframe an check it for squareness. Are there frame shops that can true it up for me?

That's a question that would be tough for us to answer since we don't know where you live. Any competent alignment shop should be able to straighten minor frame damage, but if the damage is anything more drastic I would scrap that subframe and make other plans. It's just not worth investing much time or effort to try to repair even a moderately damaged subframe when there are so many better alternatives available on the market these days.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

I have a 68 Camaro, on which I'm going to be doing a frame off restoration. It has a stock subframe, aftermarket sway bar, lowering springs, aftermarket shocks, fully adjustable SPC upper a-arms, and a taller ball joint. I have LT1 disc brakes on all four corners. I've also got the IROC steering box. Any advantage to ditching all this stuff for an aftermarket subframe? Is it worth it?

My fear is that a lighter subframe would not add much to the handling, would cost a bundle, and would raise the center of gravity, and that it is not worth doing.

Please tell me all your arguments why I am wrong.

Hi,
Your front end sounds like it likely already has a pretty well sorted array of parts. Based on your component list, I'm guessing you have spent some time on the phone with Mark Savitske at SC&C. If that's not the case, please forgive my mistake. At any rate, you're probably just fine with what you have for the majority of driving situations. If you want to up the performance gain a bit, it's probably time to start looking at new clip.

The front clip is the foundation of your suspension. If the foundation is not sounds, then the rest of the 'house' is prone to issues. Lighter weight is not the primary goal of a new front subframe although it is definitely a bonus. There are many options in aftermarket clips, more and more every year, and they are not all created equal. When we developed the first bolt-on clip for the Camaro there were several primary goals. Some of them, in no particular order, included:Improving the handling performance - Keep it light while increasing rigidity - Allow it to fit more tire - Make some space for real headers.

Starting from a clean sheet allowed us to throw out the '60s technology in favor or modern suspension theory. Everything was developed using the same software that they have at the OEMs. We designed and manufacture our own spindle, too. All together the system makes a HUGE difference. Typically our front end drops around 30 pounds off the stock front end in basic street trim. It varies depending on the options. Because the system works to lower the ride height of the vehicle it actually lowers center of gravity. It's significantly stronger due to its unique, overlapping-joint fabricated frame rail. From day one, it's always been able to fit a 10" tire. The stock inner fenders are the limitation, not our frame. Because we use a strong, mandrel-bent, 4 x 2 x .120 crossmember there is lots of room for headers, steering shafts, and the like.

You can find a lot of DETAILS AT THIS LINK (http://bit.ly/1PQvh2T), but that's really only scratching the surface as it doesn't show the latest, more aggressive options. It just comes down to what your budget is like and how aggressively you intend to drive the car. We can help you figure it out. Just give us a call.