To scream or to grunt, that is the question.

[Damn True]

Wanna pick the brains of some of the engine guru's here....

Ok, at lunch some dude in a 302 Camaro went by me on the expressway and he had the thing flat-ass wound out and it sounded beautiful. Got me thinkin.....

I have a 327 (wounded right now, but fixable) that I could build up as a high winding screamer.

Or...I could go with something like the "Impersonator 406" that was in CHP or a very nice looking 485hp 383 that Scott Shaffiroff has recently started selling.

I want 475-550 hp. Would it be prohibitively expensive to go the small displacement route to get there? Would the engine be unplesant to drive on the street? Would I be better off going with more displacement? Would it be more streetable? Would it be cheaper in the long run?

The LSx thing is attractive, but I don't think the budget could take the $11k hit (before engine mods) just to get one in the car.

[ProStreet R/T]

Screamers are fun but don't make for the best street machines. To get that thing spinning you need a healthy cam, high flowing heads, high rpm manifold, deep gears, and a fairly high stall converter if it's an auto. A lot depends on what you can deal with really, if driving a 4k stall, loping at 1200rpm idle, 4.88 geared car around town is your cup of tea then by all means go for it.

Me personally I can handle a pretty roudy driver but I have my limits, so 408sb works out pretty well. Can run reasonable gears, still makes enough vac to run the brakes and such, but will still rip off mid 12 sec 1/4's in a 4400lb brick.

[Damn True]

I dunno if this changes the answers, but perhaps I should have stated the application.
'68 Camaro built for street, track days, autox most likely with a TKO

[yody]

to get that much power out of a small motor is going to be very very expensive, a 302/327 can make 400hp with your basic to high end stuff, asking for another 100hp is going to be hard, go with a 377 if you want a high winder and 500hp.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

The LSx thing is attractive, but I don't think the budget could take the $11k hit (before engine mods) just to get one in the car.

I wonder if you could maybe post some of the things involved in that $11K? Seems AWFULLY expensive.

You could build a Stout (500-550hp) LSX for $6-7k or less.

Pull-out LSX $2,000 (can be had even cheaper)
LS6 Intake - $400 (if you buy an 01+ motor you already have this)
Ported TB - $250
AFR 205s - $2,200
Cam of your choice- $400
4130 Pushrods - $180
All the misc. engine stuff that I am either too lazy to list or am forgetting - $600.

Total = $6030 and that will get you 500-550+hp depending on your compression and size of the cam. Add a FAST 90/90 setup and you'll see even better results.

Figure you've also got about another $1,500 in fuel system, cooling and electrical upgrades. Things like headers, motor mounts, exhaust, etc. aren't really valid costs since you'll need those for any motor swap, unless you've already got some headers, exhaust etc for the 327.

[Damn True]

Working from a ball park figure supplied by a "significant contributor" on this site. Not sure he want's me naming names so I wont name him, but:

"Yeah, an LS1/T56 combo typically fetches $3500, and our kit breaks down like this:
Oil pan- $550
Engine mounts- $125
Headers- $2000
T56 install kit- $700
Then a fuel system for $1500
Cooling- $700
Wiring- $600
Misc- $1300
Total- $11k.
Now if you do crazy mods, and have someone else do the install we start going up from there very quickly."

$3500 for a motor and trans sounds like one of those deals I am never around to find, but hey man, if you can guide me through doing it cheaper, I'm all ears.

I have a quote from Shaffiroff of $7k for a 489hp 383. Not including carb, headers, ignition etc.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Shoot me a PM.

[yody]

that quote from shariroff seems a little high, for just a little more you can get a 700hp 540 BBC. YOu could put a screaming 377 together for about $6,000. could push 500+
something like
400 block
350 crank and matching bottom end parts
AFR 210CC heads
solid roller, 282/290, .620 lift 250/254 @.050 duration
victor jr. intake, or even super victor
11-1 compression
HP950 carb
1 3/4" headers
and all the rest of the good stuff
T56 with 4:55 gears(or whatever number is near that)
PUt together a really good bottom end and valvetrain and twist it to 7,200 no problem.
probably at least 500 horse, with all the high end stuff like ATI balancer, stud girdle, ignition, lightweight pistons, possilby aftermarket block etc, you would probably be like 8-9K, but you could do it for cheaper, using a solid flat tappet, some trickflow 215CC heads and stuff like that, just don't skimp on valvetrain and rotating assembly.

[yody]

you know thinking about this has me drooling! make it even bigger than 377, get an aftermarket aluminum block, and bore it out even bigger! but keep the same stroke( i think 3.45? whatever a 350 is) put some 227CC CNC'd afr heads on it, big ole roller like 288/296 .650 lift, super victor intake, 1 7/8, 1 3/4 stepped headers, 11.5-1 compression, all steel forged bottom end, all lightweight parts, custom pro-systems road race carb, crank trigger with direct fire ignition, probably about 600hp and about 7,500 rpm!!! probably cost $10,000 to do, but would be killer!! Of course putting a bigger stroke in would make even more power, but it wouldn't spin the same, get the rpm screamer motor of a 302 but with way more HP

[Damn True]

LOL, the idea was to spend $7k or less. But I really dig the brainstorming.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I have a quote from Shaffiroff of $7k for a 489hp 383. Not including carb, headers, ignition etc.
That does seem high unless they are installing the engine into your car.

383 strokers are very affordable and satisfying power plants. I dont have a single complaint about mine. Umm well I probably should have went with aluminum heads but besides that I am more than satisfied. My 383 was around $3,000 and I run mid to high 12's with it. Another grand or so and it would be a lot more fun.
Since you already have a block it helps to lower the overall price.

[harshman]

Along with this thread, what do I look for in a combo’s output for a mild road racing application? 3,400 lb car / 4.11 rear / 6 speed / sticky tires. I was thinking 500 hp small block was the goal and the torque would take care of itself. My current problem is traction with a 396 bbc – too much nose weight and too much torque makes first gear a joke.

[Damn True]

That does seem high unless they are installing the engine into your car (http://get-access.com/?go=car).

My 383 was around $3,000 and I run mid to high 12's with it. Another grand or so and it would be a lot more fun.
Since you already have a block it helps to lower the overall price.

Is that a locally built motor?

The quote from Shaffiroff was for the build and shipping (Im in CA, he's in Bohemia NY).

The 327, being a '68 has the large journals. Is that the same journal size as most stroker cranks or is it an oddball?

[CAMAROBOY69]

Yes that is a locally built motor. As for the answers to your 327 question. I really dont have any idea. Hopefully one of the engine gurus in here can answer that.

[Travis B]

The 327, being a '68 has the large journals. Is that the same journal size as most stroker cranks or is it an oddball?

yes that is the same size! No worries there

[Neil B]

I have a '69 Z28 with the DZ motor. There's nothing like it. With the flowmaster exhaust, it sounds like it has a 180 degree exhaust on it. Beautiful music. A bigger-inch motor will eat it's lunch though.

I am also building a 372ci (standard bore 377) to go into a 3rd gen Camaro I just purchased. This motor will have 13.5:1 compression, [email protected] solid roller, 215cc heads, for 7,000rpm+ fun. Not exactly a daily driver though. With a conservative goal of 1.5hp/ci my motor should make 550hp. With your goal of 475-550hp, getting that out of a 327 would be very expensive.

[Steve1968LS2]

LOL, the idea was to spend $7k or less. But I really dig the brainstorming.

If it was a ford then I would suggest a 347 stroker from Smedding.. although it only made 415/450.. I think it was less than $6k..

You could do a budget LS1 for 8k or less if you tried.. a used pullout LS1 and trans is around $3k and you would be amazed how inexpensivly you can install it if you try. Check the hybrid section at ls1tech, lots of guys with good ideas on saving cash.

high reving motors are fun on the track but not so much on the street since you are rarely winding them up that high.. well unless you are tempting the police to ruin your day.

[Kenova]

You could do a budget LS1 for 8k or less if you tried.. a used pullout LS1 and trans is around $3k and you would be amazed how inexpensivly you can install it if you try. Check the hybrid section at ls1tech, lots of guys with good ideas on saving cash..
Don't forget about the Gen III truck engines. I have a 4.8 in my truck. It's certainly not the most powerfull engine out there, but it certainly impressed me. And it loves to rev. A 4.8 crank and rods with a 6.0 block and pistons will give you a hair over 327 ci. Combined with the superior flowing Gen III heads and a healthy cam, 400hp. should be a walk in the park. Maybe somebody with more experience with these engines could tell us what the real potential of this combo would be.
Ken

[Damn True]

If it was a ford then I would suggest a 347 stroker from Smedding.. although it only made 415/450.. I think it was less than $6k..

You could do a budget LS1 for 8k or less if you tried.. a used pullout LS1 and trans is around $3k and you would be amazed how inexpensivly you can install it if you try. Check the hybrid section at ls1tech, lots of guys with good ideas on saving cash.

high reving motors are fun on the track but not so much on the street since you are rarely winding them up that high.. well unless you are tempting the police to ruin your day.



Smedding does have a nice looking 383 that tested well over at CHP.

[Damn True]

Don't forget about the Gen III truck engines. I have a 4.8 in my truck. It's certainly not the most powerfull engine out there, but it certainly impressed me. And it loves to rev. A 4.8 crank and rods with a 6.0 block and pistons will give you a hair over 327 ci. Combined with the superior flowing Gen III heads and a healthy cam, 400hp. should be a walk in the park. Maybe somebody with more experience with these engines could tell us what the real potential of this combo would be.
Ken



Am I correct in understanding that the engine in an Escalade is essentially an LS6 with an iron block instead of aluminum?

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Am I correct in understanding that the engine in an Escalade is essentially an LS6 with an iron block instead of aluminum?


Pretty much, it's 6.0L, it's iron, and the intake is different. Heads also don't flow as well. Virtually everything is interchangeable between the 5.3, 5.7 LS1/LS6 and 6.0L. Ported 6.0L heads are commonly used on boosted motors to lower compression.

[cad]

This 383 is essentially the same as mine: http://carcraft.com/techarticles/84459/index.html
They state in the article that it cost $4800 without ignition, etc (but with carb).

I bought a never assembled shortblock 350 4 bolt mains from
a good friend=$650
12-678-4 Comp cam=$112 at Summit, lifters, etc.
Crane Roller rockers-$189
New 195cc AFR heads from local shop-$1475
I had the intake, carb, and ignition.
$300-400 for extras.

That's it...If you can assemble the motor yourself, the engine will cost much less.

I know there's also faster, but how does low,low 12s sounds while being able to drive over to DesMoines for Good Guys last summer on pump gas, cruise, and drive back, also....
I think it screams and has a little grunt...
http://doukas.us/files/383atMAM.wmv save target to your hard drive to view best.

[Ackattack]

Pretty much, it's 6.0L, doesn't have D shaped exhaust ports, is iron, and the intake is different. Heads also don't flow as well. Virtually everything is interchangeable between the 5.3, 5.7 LS1/LS6 and 6.0L. Ported 6.0L heads are commonly used on boosted motors to lower compression.

I thought the 6.0L heads did have D-shaped ports. That's why some companies market them as "LS6 style"

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I thought the 6.0L heads did have D-shaped ports. That's why some companies market them as "LS6 style"


Actually, yeah you're right. That's how patriot makes their "LS6 style" heads so cheap. My mistake. I'll edit it out of the original post. Thanks

[Damn True]

This 383 is essentially the same as mine: http://carcraft.com/techarticles/84459/index.html
They state in the article that it cost $4800 without ignition, etc (but with carb).

I bought a never assembled shortblock 350 4 bolt mains from
a good friend=$650
12-678-4 Comp cam=$112 at Summit, lifters, etc.
Crane Roller rockers-$189
New 195cc AFR heads from local shop-$1475
I had the intake, carb, and ignition.
$300-400 for extras.

That's it...If you can assemble the motor yourself, the engine will cost much less.

I know there's also faster, but how does low,low 12s sounds while being able to drive over to DesMoines for Good Guys last summer on pump gas, cruise, and drive back, also....
I think it screams and has a little grunt...
http://doukas.us/files/383atMAM.wmv save target to your hard drive to view best.



Interesting build.
What kinda trap speed are you getting along with the low 12's? Your video ends just before you trip the lights.

[wendell]

If you can find a 400 block, Yody has provided the correct answer. After torqueing threw the low end like a 383 you'll scream past that 302 @ 7500rpm like something straight out of Nextel. It's on my list ofthings to do this winter.

[harshman]

I have always liked the idea of a 377 but I despise solid cams. Could that motor be done on a hydraulic roller with AFR's rev kit and get good power to 7,000 rpm?

[yody]

I have always liked the idea of a 377 but I despise solid cams. Could that motor be done on a hydraulic roller with AFR's rev kit and get good power to 7,000 rpm?
Possilbe, but there is no reason. Solid cams is where its at. Using a hydro roller for a 7,000 rpm motor would be a pretty useless idea though. I think if you really want to build a motor like that, just get over any bad ideas about solid cams.

[camaro608]

nothing like a 302
but they are expensive
$$$$$$

[Ralph LoGrasso]

On the topic of screaming-- Matt once tried to talk me into building a super high revving (10k redline) 289ci SBC for my car. I think it would be super fun for the road courses, but not much fun on the street, well maybe it would be fun, but ya better bring some bail money, heh. Matt is one crazy fella, but I'd sure like to see a braver soul build such a monster for a PT car.

[texlurch]

I vote build the 327. Then add a supercharger or turbos, and have your cake and eat it too!

[harshman]

So, what does one look for in a road racing/street stomping/cruising application? Too much torque means a pointless first gear (seen with my current big block). Exiting off of the turns I figure I will be about 3k rpm, and again grip is a very important issue, too much torque applied will send me sideways. :drive2: So what am I after?

[yody]

So, what does one look for in a road racing/street stomping/cruising application? Too much torque means a pointless first gear (seen with my current big block). Exiting off of the turns I figure I will be about 3k rpm, and again grip is a very important issue, too much torque applied will send me sideways. :drive2: So what am I after?
"traction"

[protour_chevelle]

I think it would be cool to build up one of those GM 302's. Their a very cool motor that made great power with mods. All motor is fun, but make sure that you have the grunt to get you out of the hole hard.

-Matt

[CarlC]

Another good option is what David Pozzi did for Mary's car, a GMPP 383/425 crate motor. The engine should come in under $5k, add in a new intake and carb, and you are done. Plus, it's brand new, comes with a warranty, and runs quite well. It will even accept a Magnuson Products supercharger with no needed modifications.

[shep]

Is that a locally built motor?

The quote from Shaffiroff was for the build and shipping (Im in CA, he's in Bohemia NY).

The 327, being a '68 has the large journals. Is that the same journal size as most stroker cranks or is it an oddball?

The large journal 327 is the same block as the 2 bolt main 350. Just get a 383 crank and build it. That would be the cheapest. Or have the 327 crank offset groud to the small rod journal diamater and you would have what the dirt track guys call a 9\16 stroker.

[cad]

Interesting build.
What kinda trap speed are you getting along with the low 12's? Your video ends just before you trip the lights.


That video is 1/8th mile last year, or the year before.
Qtr mile mph is 108.

[Matt@RFR]

So, what does one look for in a road racing/street stomping/cruising application? Too much torque means a pointless first gear (seen with my current big block). Exiting off of the turns I figure I will be about 3k rpm, and again grip is a very important issue, too much torque applied will send me sideways. So what am I after?

Throttle control?

[harshman]

Got'cha – stupid question apparently. I have never had 500 hp / 500 ft lbs at my feet at a track and was assuming that it may be too much torque to control. :slap:

[Matt@RFR]

Nah. It'll be alittle touchy, but smoothness pays dividends. Apples to oranges, I know, but the TransAm guys are up around 800hp, asphault late models are in the same range, even those winston cup pigs are around 800hp on road courses.

[Damn True]

Another good option is what David Pozzi did for Mary's car, a GMPP 383/425 crate motor. The engine should come in under $5k, add in a new intake and carb, and you are done. Plus, it's brand new, comes with a warranty, and runs quite well. It will even accept a Magnuson Products supercharger with no needed modifications.


This is actually starting to look like the way I may go. Solid platform to start from, and really easy to upgrade as time goes on.

Have you seen the ZZ383-500 that Sallee Chevrolet in Oregon is marketing. Zoiks, looks nice.

[Shonuff_Chevy]

Try this get a 400 block bore .030/6" rods/all forge/AFR heads your choice for application/Doug Herbert solid street roller/victor jr./1 3/4 header/ all roller(solid).
You can get 450-550hp on pump gas with that combo with the right heads and cam easy without wrecking the budget.
You just might sleep in the car.

[GMachineDartGT]

I'm down with the big inch motor. Less headaches, and still sounds great. It is still going to run into $ though, don't fool yourself. I have a buddy who's a machinist for world, and I still spent 8K, getting deals on everything, breaks on machine work, and a free block. I shopped everything, and having been in the business have many contacts as well. Well worth it in the end though.