3pt belt vs 5pt harness

[shownomercy]

In terms of safety in a daily driver... no air bags, and a properly installed 6pt roll bar.

3pt OEM seat belt vs 5pt harness.

My worry is the 5pt will not allow for body movement like a stock belt would and my neck would absorb a lot of whiplash in a sudden stop or rear end situation.

Thoughts?

[j-c-c]

I think you have got it backwards. If you want you neck to move around with your head attached, consider the trauma possible when your head contacts a well installed steel tubed cage, kinda like getting hit with an alum baseball bat, and if like most others, you will comforted by the fact the alum bat has a 1/2" of foam covering it. It safety is a true concern, and you a are helmetless, consider a properly mounted head restraint true race seat. In a severe front impact with out a hans and proper belts, you are out luck with a 3 point, and a 5 point, is as you are suggesting, asking for a typical basal skull fracture (snapped neck). The real elephant in the room seldom discussed, a full cage in a street car. Check out the White featured Camaro in the current HR mag. Driving that car without a helmet with that cage, with that tire package on the street, is insane IMO.

[TheJDMan]

For street use you are required to use a DOT legal harness. In a daily driver with a roll bar(not a cage), you need to look at the Schroth ASM DOT legal 4 point harness.

http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-cross

Or a DOT legal 4 point that can be upgraded to a 5 or 6 point in the future.

http://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-asm/profi-II-asm

[72BBSwinger]

If it doesn't have a backseat it is a racecar lol. If your head can contact one of your bars in your car while you're in your seat, either rip the cage out or where a helmet 24/7. As much as I hate to, I agree with JCC on this one. I run 3 points with a cage.

[shownomercy]

Woah, guys.. Roll bar, not cage, IE no halo bar. With current seat head cannot contact main hoop and I don't run door bars normally Street wise.

So stock belt is safer than a 5pt?

[j-c-c]

A 5 pt would be safer IMO, but not sure how many are diligent enough every time to use all 5 pts to "just run up to the 7/11". A properly located roll bar is definitely contactable in an accident with your head. Watch a few online videos to reflect on how violent and flexible the human body and seat belts are. It is a compromise, just hopefully informed. 72Swinger, stop agreeing with me. hehe.

[shownomercy]

If the seat back is taller than bar and what not, it would have to be a nasty crash to snap seat off mounts and then send head back into bar. Even then seat back is braced to cross bar so would be a nasty ass crash.

Again, I understand those risks, just asking about 5pt vs 3pt.

[Project92rs]

The one issue only somewhat mentioned is there are almost no harnesses that are actually DOT legal. The Schroth ones mentioned above are about your only option to actually have a street legal harness. The others are for race use only and you can be ticketed for not using a DOT legal seat belt. That's why you see so many cars with both the factory belts and harnesses installed. And, as the others have mentioned, driving on the street with a cage has some inherent danger if you aren't wearing the full set of safety equipment.

[SSLance]

I use my factory 3 points on the street, and 5 point harness on the race track. Have tried driving on the street with the shoulder harnesses snugged tight and it sucks...period.

[shownomercy]

The one issue only somewhat mentioned is there are almost no harnesses that are actually DOT legal. The Schroth ones mentioned above are about your only option to actually have a street legal harness. The others are for race use only and you can be ticketed for not using a DOT legal seat belt. That's why you see so many cars with both the factory belts and harnesses installed. And, as the others have mentioned, driving on the street with a cage has some inherent danger if you aren't wearing the full set of safety equipment.

If an officer gave me a ticket for the lack of seatbelt on, thats a gift IMO. I understand they are not DOT legit and never will try to justify it that way. The roll bar (not cage) is a catch 22, I don't want it, but want to race my car more than once at a track. Just stuck in a viscous circle of having enough safety equipment to satisfy the track but not endanger my life on the street.

:shrugs:


I use my factory 3 points on the street, and 5 point harness on the race track. Have tried driving on the street with the shoulder harnesses snugged tight and it sucks...period.

IDK, drove around last night and today to work with the 5pt cinched down tight as hell and no real complaints except the getting latched up aspect.

[SSLance]

Welcome to the conundrum... Do you have a remote control for your stereo? Or how about reaching your heater or AC controls?

Turning around to look to back into a parking spot can be fun too.

[shownomercy]

Welcome to the conundrum... Do you have a remote control for your stereo? Or how about reaching your heater or AC controls?

Turning around to look to back into a parking spot can be fun too.

Stereo is there, but doesn't work and HVAC is gone.

I will concede, backing up to park this morning I popped the camlock off

[mikedc]

I think you have got it backwards. If you want you neck to move around with your head attached, consider the trauma possible when your head contacts a well installed steel tubed cage, kinda like getting hit with an alum baseball bat, and if like most others, you will comforted by the fact the alum bat has a 1/2" of foam covering it. It safety is a true concern, and you a are helmetless, consider a properly mounted head restraint true race seat. In a severe front impact with out a hans and proper belts, you are out luck with a 3 point, and a 5 point, is as you are suggesting, asking for a typical basal skull fracture (snapped neck). The real elephant in the room seldom discussed, a full cage in a street car. Check out the White featured Camaro in the current HR mag. Driving that car without a helmet with that cage, with that tire package on the street, is insane IMO.


If it doesn't have a backseat it is a racecar lol. If your head can contact one of your bars in your car while you're in your seat, either rip the cage out or where a helmet 24/7. As much as I hate to, I agree with JCC on this one. I run 3 points with a cage.


If I hacked away all the metal that I could easily reach with my head wearing 3pt belts, then a bunch of my car's factory unibody roof structure would need to be hacked out.

This is true in plenty of modern vehicles.

I am 6' 0" with average proportions.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I don't want to smack my head against anything [other than a brick wall on occasion] but I think hitting your head on a roll bar would be much more serious than hitting your head on sheet metal. The baseball bat analogy really 'Hits' home!

[j-c-c]

Something I read, obliquely related yesterday to this topic in "Race Car Engineering" was, it is very important in hard impacts that the seated occupants spine be as straight as possible, kinda along the lines of when picking up heavy objects, bend your legs, not your back. And the back/spine strength of a 20-30 year old is approx 2.5 times stronger then a 60 year old. IE, keep belts tight as possible to prevent slumping forward and the spine curving.

[hotrodalex]

I only use the lap belts in normal driving. Full harness is only for autox or driving in the mountains.

Never been pulled over so I don't know how a cop will react to the non-DOT lap belt. Don't plan on finding out.

[Kcorrigan2]

So many considerations...how is your harness mounted? How does it pull against your body? Bottom line...every article I have ever read that has been written by experts...people who research with crash dummies etc. have stated that a three point is safer than a 5 pt in this situation, Unless you are going full Monte every time...racing seat, harness properly mounted so as not to compress your spine, helmet...and nobody does that...every time on the street. Put your three point on. IMHO

[MonzaRacer]

OK, after doing research, and reading everyones input. I find some points well constructed, but i have helped install roll cages, we tucked the upper hoops well into the roof. As for head injuries from hitting a roll bar or the roof rail, sorry but forensics proves that totally wrong. A head hitting ANY hard metal part will cause damage, period, be it round tubing or bent sheet metal.
After several calls I got a hold of an old friend who used to be my doctor and he also did forensic pathology for SEVERAL racing accidents, namely for insurance purposes to see if the tracks failed to provide safety checks properly.
NOW if your new cage/roll bar intrude excessively into passenger compartment, yes typical roll bar padding wont help a great deal.
I have heard a new brand that has better safety rating ,so to speak.
I have been in endos and roll overs AT SPEED all in same car, 4/5 pt harness, not sure if I had submarine strap on. car end over end 4 times, layed over and rolled 3 more before landing on wheels.
86 Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe, Alston based cage but installed for us much tighter, installer came in to shop to help make sure it went up high enough. Plans were to hide upper hoop with custom headliner and part of stock interior.
We actually cut into roof framework and sunk tubing into roof and welded too the roof metal.
When we tore car down post wreck the roof was straightenable, they hung new right quarter, replaced fiberglass dog house, replaced short block after heads/intake ripped out of block, sucks it destroyed the block, it was a balanced and blue printed Nickey Chevrolet 427 BBC, L88 actually.
WE swapped out old school pistons and rods for exact same weight package so we didnt have to rebalance just got 10-15 yr newer piston design and better rods.
And we even bought another similar short block but it have less than 10k miles so we honed it and actually was able to swap in our lower end.
Heads were aluminum, supposedly Brownfield, but not sure anymore.
We had to straighten out throttle link, Mallory fixed the distributor body and we got car back together in only 6 weeks.
Anywho, as for police involvement I have been assured that pretty much any type of restraint is considered ok.
As for having wrecks with harness or 3 point, well I STILL pay for wrecks with three points with damage and injury that is also aggravating just plain old age catching up with me.
Used to shake off wrecks, start rebuilding my car(s) the next day if not same day.
Now, not so quickly.
If I have a seat properly reinforced after installing rollbar/cage then the cross bar should be roughly shoulder height.
Installed the way I like, most 3 ways wont even let a body get close to the roof bar.
Most people must want to sit way up high with head real close to roof.
As for backing up, reaching for controls, well I generally make sure I sit close enough to get to controls and unless I am racing I dont let my 3 point or my harness be painfully tight, never have.
I have seen some bad cage/bars, and some great ones like the ones I described.
Build what you like, drive what you like. If you install a cage and daily drive it seems to me that you decided to modify it, just as if you installed a blower or NOS or turbo or even aftermarket brakes, and all of them can kill you, cause gross bodily harm.
I still take away from all that is said and take information from my friend/ex doctor and he simply says if your gonna get hurt in an accident, nothing will change that. He has seen more people KILLED by air bag trauma of driving the nasal bone into the victims brain than head trauma from hitting on roof frames.
As for harness or 3 point, run what ya want. wear it when ya want.
For all these posts about this isnt safe, that isnt safe, this will or wont work. Arent all the cars on here done to OUR choice.
Run what ya brung ,hope ya brung enough and do it your way.
I still have sbc/bbc, dont get me wrong, I could go LSx, but why, first of all i can drop in a sbc, drop in an hei, flip some cheap headers, drop on couple of cheap turbos and such and make good power with very little cash.
Anyway plan your project and build it.

[MonzaRacer]

Duplicate

[72BBSwinger]

That's why I specified "if your head can contact any tube of your cage while belted in, where a helmet or cut it out...." I built mine to not allow that.

[MonzaRacer]

I actually saw a company building oval aircraft tubing cages, bet the mandrels are salty!

[shownomercy]

Unless seat back and mount fails completely head can't hit bar. But as pointed out already, have you seen whats under the plastic and headliner, metal frame.. Regardless, I under stand that aspect and have come to terms with running +135mph means roll bar. (actually means cage but F that noise)

My question stems from the NHRA not mandating a HANs or similar, but saying a helmet/five point are enough. Whiplash city no?

So interpolating from that, a 5pt without a heavy helmet is prob fine when compared to a sloppy three point from 95.

IDK.

[72BBSwinger]

The NHRA doesn't account for getting tboned by another car.

[shownomercy]

The NHRA doesn't account for getting tboned by another car.

Assuming you are saying that the 5pt will hold you in place for the car to massage you vs the 3pt allowing you to move out of the way?

[72BBSwinger]

I'm saying NHRA rules don't apply to a street or road course car. You get tboned, where is our heads gonna go? Is a 5 point gonna make it better?

[shownomercy]

I'm saying NHRA rules don't apply to a street or road course car. You get tboned, where is our heads gonna go? Is a 5 point gonna make it better?

Yea, thats what I was getting at, 5pt and roll bar stuff on the street. Any studies or science behind its use in DD environments.

In the end of the day, car has both, and I rock the OEM belt for DD use. :screwy:

[MonzaRacer]

Well I can tell you one thing, every emergency responder says if you wear a racing harness you still have a seat belt on.
And honestly many say a they wish people were wearing racing harness.
Do as you please. It is all about choices, choose what you want.

[HandOverFist]

A little different tact - My next build will be sporting bucket seats, two retired cam-loc harnesses from our race cars for both passenger and driver. There will be seat back support bars anchored to the frame and the shoulder belts will be attached to those. My theory is the seat belt was originally intended to just keep the occupant inside the vehicle during an incident...the cross belt came later to help somewhat with forward motion of the upper torso. Only so much these systems can do and not much has changed with them in 45 years. Of course the additional items like collapsible steering columns, air bags and engineered crumple zones have improved our lot, but the severity of the incident is still the key to survival. It would take much more than I have thus far seen or heard to dissuade me from employing the 5-point belts in my daily street machine. Btw, no roll bar in this one.

[parsonsj]

It would take much more than I have thus far seen or heard to dissuade me from employing the 5-point belts in my daily street machine.Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

[HandOverFist]

Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

Hmm...that sounds just a little to tidy of a statement. The HANS is just one more recently added layer and probably a reasonable one...for racing purposes. Let's see...how many decades has Nascar been operating with drivers using conventional restraint systems? How many deaths can you cite in that time period attributable to these supposedly "death trap" harnesses? Are you really trying to equate the Daytona incident to everyday street vehicle operation? It almost appears you are suggesting all would have been peachy if he had been wearing a 3-point harness instead of the 5/6-point...really? Maybe you are trying to advocate the HANS for our daily driver...good luck with that.

Just a reminder of actual events... http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0223/1104412.html

I will add this only because the thread got me thinking about the past. I am/was a huge Dale fan throughout his career and recall the day of his death just like it was yesterday. I have not watched another Nascar race since that sad day. I remember the clamor about Sterling Marlin being responsible for the mishap...I knew immediately that was a false emotional response. Sterling was driving as he always did...it was Dale who changed his routine. Dale knew Sterling had the car to win that race and he went out of character to block for his team cars instead of racing to win as he had done his entire life. Simply put Dale killed Dale...probably re-opened a can of worms with that statement, but it is what it is.

[parsonsj]

Sorry. I'm saying a 5 pt harness isn't safe for street use.

YMMV (from wikipedia):

Basilar skull fractures are a common cause of death in many motor racing accidents. Drivers who have died as a result of basilar skull fractures include Formula One driver Roland Ratzenberger; Indianapolis 500 drivers Bill Vukovich Sr., Tony Bettenhausen Sr., Floyd Roberts, and Scott Brayton; NASCAR drivers Dale Earnhardt Sr., Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Kenny Irwin Jr., Neil Bonnett, John Nemechek, J.D. McDuffie, and Richie Evans; CART drivers Jovy Marcelo, Greg Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez; and ARCA drivers Blaise Alexander and Slick Johnson.

To prevent this injury, all major motor sports sanctioning bodies now mandate the use of head and neck restraints, such as the HANS device. To this day the HANS device has multiple times demonstrated its life saving abilities. Examples of drivers surviving thanks to the HANS device are Jeff Gordon at the 2006 Pocono 500, Robert Kubica at the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, and Max Verstappen at the 2015 Monaco Grand Prix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

[BMR Sales]

Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

That was a Perfect (un-perfect) storm of Belts not being installed correctly, not wearing a HANS and wearing an Open-Face Helmet. Because his belts were not installed properly, his body shifted and was Not held in place.

[j-c-c]

Sorry. I'm saying a 5 pt harness isn't safe for street use.

YMMV (from wikipedia):

Basilar skull fractures are a common cause of death in many motor racing accidents. Drivers who have died as a result of basilar skull fractures include Formula One driver Roland Ratzenberger; Indianapolis 500 drivers Bill Vukovich Sr., Tony Bettenhausen Sr., Floyd Roberts, and Scott Brayton; NASCAR drivers Dale Earnhardt Sr., Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Kenny Irwin Jr., Neil Bonnett, John Nemechek, J.D. McDuffie, and Richie Evans; CART drivers Jovy Marcelo, Greg Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez; and ARCA drivers Blaise Alexander and Slick Johnson.

To prevent this injury, all major motor sports sanctioning bodies now mandate the use of head and neck restraints, such as the HANS device. To this day the HANS device has multiple times demonstrated its life saving abilities. Examples of drivers surviving thanks to the HANS device are Jeff Gordon at the 2006 Pocono 500, Robert Kubica at the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, and Max Verstappen at the 2015 Monaco Grand Prix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.

[parsonsj]

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.Sure. I get that argument. And a helmet does increase mass attached to the neck.

It must be acknowledged that holding both shoulders firmly in place places additional stress on the neck and base of the skull in the event of an accident. Modern 3 pt systems disperse force through the spine by allowing the torso to twist and come partially forward, and if equipped, the air bag can make a difference helping keep the head upright.

Using a 5 pt harness without a HANS is not recommended by any racing safety board. Doing that on the street seems unwise, especially if you are doing that in a modern car with a 3 pt system and an air bag. Now if you are in pre-69 car with just a lap belt, then the whole argument changes.

[TheJDMan]

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.

I would have to agree.

[HandOverFist]

Yes, in my case it is a pre-69 car equipped with lap belts only, no collapsible column and no engineered crumple zones. I readily admit I could be wrong on this subject, but I am willing to bet my life on the 5-point in this instance. I have no illusions of superior safety using a 5-point harness in my street machine, but I do have the utmost confidence in being securely strapped in and not rattling around the interior or being thrown from the vehicle in the event of a severe incident. I am in no way advocating or recommending this to anyone...I'm just stating my opinions based on limited experiences and have yet to be convinced from arguments against it.

Thanks to JD for the Schroth link...I had no idea there was a DOT harness solution out there. I may forgo the planned bar install and just use one of their systems. I will be further ahead at any rate by removing the bench seat and employing some modern buckets with headrests.

[parsonsj]

The Schroth 4 pt system is a good choice. (I ran that in my II Much Nova). The Schroth 4 pt system has DOT approval because it allows the torso to twist by having a small loop of harness on one side. That stretches during an accident and helps to disperse force through the spine. In other words, it has DOT approval because it behaves similarly to a 3 pt system and doesn't pin both shoulders to the seat.

However, it is not a good choice on the track, because the "release" mechanism in the shoulder belt won't hold a HANS device properly in place.

From Schroth: (they call their inboard shoulder strap loop "ASM")
The patented SCHROTH asm® system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asm® is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asm® safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses. Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asm® safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asm® safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asm® safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags.

Current Head And Neck Supports (HANS®) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck bending.

The asm® system on all SCHROTH Rallye and QuickFit belts - excluding the new QuickFit Pro - is not compatible the with HANS®. Only belts having a center RFR Cam lock can be used with HANS®.

We recommend that only non asm® belts be used in competition harnessbelts.

Racing harnesses without asm® must be worn with an anti-sub strap!

[HandOverFist]

Lot's of information on the Schroth site for sure. My '67 El Camino will never see any serious track usage due to my resistance in installing a roll bar/cage and I certainly won't be wearing a HANS device on the street lol. The positive side of these is that it will negate the requirement on my part to construct any bracketry in order to attach a conventional harness system. Another plus will be the 2" webbing instead of the usual bulky/stiff 3" variety...no doubt it will be a huge improvement in comfort for extended use.

This truck may see an occasional fun AutoX or a blast down the 1/4-mile from time to time, but for the most part will be a street machine. I've learned over the years it's pretty much an exercise in futility to transform a production vehicle into race trim...you can make them better, but they are never quite right for the task. Btw, the ASM designation (the way I read it) does nothing special to protect the spine or any other part of the body. It merely means it is designed to allow the body to twist a certain amount which by design tightens the lap belts preventing submarining.