Best second gen fbody aftermarket subframe

[Schroeder]

Guys, I was considering getting a new aftermarket subframe (some of you may have seen my wanted ad in the clssifieds). I am sold on the DSE mainly just because of their name. I wanted to know what people think is the best aftermarket subframe though? best performance and bang for the buck. I'm not going to be officially racing the car so I don't care about rules and all that crap. Any racing I do is street racing and for fun.

I have a pontiac 400 engine and hedman headers for it. I would really love to keep the headers that I have since those are never a cheap investment. Is a new subframe worth it, or should I just upgrade what I have? I also want to get a 10" tire on the front with decent deep-dish, pro-touring-looking 18" wheels on soon. That's what started driving the decision for the aftermarket subframe. I was told by my wheel manufacture (year one) that a 10" wheel will not fit on the factory subframe.

[Schwartz Performance]

Just throwing it out there, we have a full frame for these as well for a more solid foundation. Doesn't require any floorpan cutting either.

Headers will need to be custom, which will likely apply to anything you get with a rack and pinion.

-Dale

[Schroeder]

Thanks a lot for the info. Looks great. VERY intersting. So it comes with an assembled rear? I went thru the options I wanted and u may be a bit out of my range. Ill PM u

[Schwartz Performance]

Yeah everything would be assembled if you choose assembly. Axles, brakes, etc.
if you add up a new rear end, 13" f/r brakes, and all the other stuff, you're pretty close to the price of our chassis.

-Dale

[hotrodalex]

I was told by my wheel manufacture (year one) that a 10" wheel will not fit on the factory subframe.

Check out Ridetech's TruTurn, I think you can fit a 10" rim up front with that.

[Schroeder]

Thanks a lot hotrodalex. I appreciate your reply. I would like to point out though that I have a SECOND GENERATION firebird. It appears that the ridetech setup is not compatible with a 2nd gen. I have sent them an email though to verify. http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/

Does anyone else have a second gen that went through what I'm going through who can offer any help or suggestions?

[cpd004]

There is this too:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=49545

[Schroeder]

Sounds cool and all, but is that better than DSE? Also, it uses C7 hubs it says? That is really awesome, but at this moment there isn't much after market stuff for that, right? Prolly be expensive too. Also, just looked on ron and ride tech's site and it still isn't there. So much for making the march release date. Ugh...guess I'll send em an email, but you have REALLY caught my interest cpd004. thanks a lot!

[cpd004]

I think you're going to have a hard hearing which is best. It'd be great if someone would grab them all for a side by side comparison along with testing, but that would extremely time consuming and expensive. I've dealt with Schwartz there's always someone there to answer the phone for tech support. They may all be that way, but I haven't dealt with the others. Ridetech wasn't bad either.

[Schroeder]

Yeah, I know I wasn't going to get a side by side comparison like that, but I was hoping people who have made the switch would chime in, talk about the handling, talk about the stance, etc.

I was mistaken about the C7 hubs too. c5/c6 hubs are used, but bigger c7 bearings are used! That's cool. Also, I have to apologize to readers and to ridetech about my comments on their site not being updated. I was unable to find info on their site about the subframe because they aren't making one! Lol I CONSTANTLY mix up ride tech and speedtech in my browser's address bar. Stupid habit. Anyway, SPEEDtech DOES have information on their subframe on their site. For anyone else who is interested, here is a link with a lot of info. http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=160/mode=cat/cat160.htm

They have me sold. I think it looks like it could be better than DSE's. I do have a hard time comparing the numbers to each other though. The speedtech site and the link to the lateral G thread where the numbers are discussed are just that, outright numbers. How do these numbers compare to the DSE graphs on their subframe shown here: http://www.detroitspeed.com/1970-1981-F-Body-products/032011-hydroformed-subframe.html# ?

I'd like to know how to interpret the graphs and what I should be gleaning from them.

[David Pozzi]

Guys, I was considering getting a new aftermarket subframe (some of you may have seen my wanted ad in the clssifieds). I am sold on the DSE mainly just because of their name. I wanted to know what people think is the best aftermarket subframe though? best performance and bang for the buck. I'm not going to be officially racing the car so I don't care about rules and all that crap. Any racing I do is street racing and for fun.

I have a pontiac 400 engine and hedman headers for it. I would really love to keep the headers that I have since those are never a cheap investment. Is a new subframe worth it, or should I just upgrade what I have? I also want to get a 10" tire on the front with decent deep-dish, pro-touring-looking 18" wheels on soon. That's what started driving the decision for the aftermarket subframe. I was told by my wheel manufacture (year one) that a 10" wheel will not fit on the factory subframe.

My wife Mary ran a 9.5" wide front wheel on a stock 2nd gen sub with 275/18 tires. I'd say that's the limit with stock sub and inner fenders.
We switched to an Art Morrison sub and now run a 315X18 on a 10" rim - if I remember right. Very happy with the AME sub but the others you mentioned are very good subs.

[parsonsj]

Best at what? What's the criteria? Price? Support? Availability? Tire fitment? Ease of install? Resale?

Unless you define what you mean by best, the rest of us will all just give you our ring finger length and you'll be more confused than ever.

[Schroeder]

All of those criteria r good measuring sticks. I was particularly refering to tire fitment, ride quality, and geometry. Value is a big measuring stick too

[Twentyover]

So pretty much everything is the most important criteria

[Schroeder]

Defintion of "best" according to google: of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality.. I asked for the "best" subframe. I want the most well rounded subframe with all things considered. Never thought it was going to be so hard to get some input from owners of these aftermarket subframes, particularly owners of 2nd gen versions. Everyone referred me here on other forums for the wealth of knowledge. Anyway, yeah, I guess everything does matter. I think everything should matter when you're spending $8k+, so if you're just trolling and have no input what so ever GTFO.

[David Pozzi]

Please calm down and give us a little more info to go on. What's best for a daily driver may not be best for a hard core racer. I still don't know exactly what you intend to do with your car other than "street racing", so I posted a pretty generic answer.
Tell us your intended use and budget and you might get a more realistic response. If we have to draw it out of you with question after question it may not happen.

[srh3trinity]

I would say the DSE is the most proven option out there. It is in multiple fast street/track cars. See Brian Finch and the Tucker's second gen test car as examples. Stielow uses them as his basis for his first gen builds. I haven't priced them lately, but it was on the higher side of the price range. If I am not mistaken, Speedtech has a little more room for wider wheels, but not by much. There aren't as many examples of the AME or TCI subs out there, but those are other options. As the others have mentioned, your budget and intended use will weigh heavily on what is "best" for you. For me DSE vs Speedtech would be a coin flip on tire size and geometry. It would come down to price, brake options, header options, etc.

[parsonsj]

I think you'll be happy with any one of a half-dozen different sub-frames. Including OEM (GM made a lot of improvements in the 2nd gen). They are all best, depending on how you define what you want, and what you want to do with the car.

One other thing: tell me to get the **** out again, and you'll be banned from this site.

[Schroeder]

I would say the DSE is the most proven option out there. It is in multiple fast street/track cars. See Brian Finch and the Tucker's second gen test car as examples. Stielow uses them as his basis for his first gen builds. I haven't priced them lately, but it was on the higher side of the price range. If I am not mistaken, Speedtech has a little more room for wider wheels, but not by much. There aren't as many examples of the AME or TCI subs out there, but those are other options. As the others have mentioned, your budget and intended use will weigh heavily on what is "best" for you. For me DSE vs Speedtech would be a coin flip on tire size and geometry. It would come down to price, brake options, header options, etc. This is the simple kind of response I was looking for. Parsonsj, I wasn't talking to you. I was telling twenty over for making his smart ass remark. its pointless. Why waste my time reading such idiocy? back to the point, the headers thing is another area of concern, and it is one thing I like about the DSE. It sounds like I may be able to modify my hedman headers 28150 for a standard 2nd gen fbody. I do NOT want to spend $2000 on a set of custom lemons headers or someone else's. it's an insane price, and it just isn't something I want to spend money on....again. It sounds like speedtech may end up being about $1000 cheaper than DSE by the time it's all said and done, AND it has better geometry. that's really cool. however, it also sounds like a pontiac 400 may not fit in it. Blake foster is looking into it and is going to get me an answer hopefully this week. I have heard several people mention now that the OEM clip isn't that bad. It makes me wonder if it's a waste of time and money all together. Should I just buy new tubular a-arms, coil overs, kore3 conversion hubs and call it good? It definitely wouldn't stretch my bank account as much. It's a lot of money to pay for one more inch of tire up front. I really want 10s up front, but if it's generally thought to be pointless I think I could be convinced of that too.

[parsonsj]

Let me put it this way: we don't do that here. We don't tell people not to respond to our threads. The *only* place that sort of thing is appropriate is in For Sale and Feedback threads.

[parsonsj]

Should I just buy new tubular a-arms, coil overs, kore3 conversion hubs and call it good?Yes. That's my advice. Free, and worth every penny. Of course, now you have to decide which control arms and and coil overs to use.

[Schroeder]

Global west has some good a arms doesn't it? Are the JRi single adjustables a good choice? I was thinking those or ridetech's. So Parsonsj, are you basically implying that the aftermarket subframes aren't worth it? Not enough gain for the money?

Are there more here that would agree with that?

[Twentyover]

... So Parsonsj, are you basically implying that the aftermarket subframes aren't worth it? ..

Who'se being snarky now?


... Not enough gain for the money?

Are there more here that would agree with that?

Absolutely do not agree with your assessment. Again, it comes down to prioritizing selection criteria. If you want to win at time trials, Autocross, or wheel to wheel racing, you spend big money developing the best upright, pivot locations, and brakes. And by best I mean the geometry that lets you brake later, pick a line that lets you challenge your competitor for track position, or secure incrementally better grip to get through a turn faster.

I would agree with a statement "Not enough gain for the money... for you'", now that you've appeared to have established cost as a more important rather than an equal criteria... for you,

I did the same on the red car (70 Camaro)- The increment in performance/dollar cost did not meet my breakover for what is fundamentally a street car. I harbor no grand illusions I can compete in it head to head with the best in the sport (read that more skilled than I), in better,more developed cars, so I made a fun little car that makes the right noises,turns pretty good, and makes me smile.

[srh3trinity]

I think most would agree that if we are comparing OEM subframes, the second gen platform is superior to the first gen platform. Unless you are a 10/10ths type driver competing with the big dogs, it will likely be a long time before your driving capabilities exceeds that of a nicely upgraded stock subframe. That was my intention until I scored C5 upper and lower control arms and uprights for a low price. I bought an aftermarket subframe (from Scott Mock and you can look through the feedback section to see the ups and downs of that option). By the time I did the math, it wound up being around 1K difference between that route and upgrading my stock subframe the way I wanted to. Prices have gone up in the past few years and this may not be the case currently, and based on recent events, I probably wouldn't recommend to go with a Mock subframe (based on other's experiences, mine was fine).

The aftermarket options are more sorted out now than they were a few years ago. If I were starting from scratch, I would probably buy a packaged setup. If you keep your stock subframe, then DSE, Ridetech and Speedtech all have a package option with arms and schocks. They have all spent R&D time and money to develop these packages and the shocks are valved for the setup. You would probably do well to buy one of those setups and upgrade your steering box and swaybars and get out and start driving. If you have a second gen, you can probably get a 275 tire up front if you get the backspacing correct.

As far as this community goes, I am not a moderator, but every few months somebody gets started off on the wrong foot. Realize that you are trying to draw on the wealth of information that people have around here. You will get farther with your search for knowledge with well thought out posts and questions. Take a second and look at what some of the people that have replied to your posts here have built or accomplished. David Pozzi has countless hours in race cars and his wife's Camaro is one of the best second gens ever built. He knows more about second gen Camaro suspension setups than some of the aftermarket manufacturers probably do. They have had everything from leaf springs to full IRS setups in that car and she was fast with all of them. John Parsons has built some of the coolest PT builds around, particularly his II Much Nova. You are in the right place to find the information you want. Just take it in and decide what is best for you based on your budget, wants, needs, goals, etc.

[Schroeder]

... So Parsonsj, are you basically implying that the aftermarket subframes aren't worth it? ..

Who'se being snarky now?


Not being snarky. U misread that. I was sincerely asking if he thinks that these 2nd Gen subframe may not be the best bang for the buck.

As far as steering boxes go; u have a 600 box and I have heard that I won't notice much difference between it and DSE,s rack and pinion. That is another upsetting thing to me. Not that I'm not happy with the 600 box. I love it. Best improvement I ever made to the car for performance and safety. Pozzi's car has an AME subframe in doesn't it? I think I'd pick DSE or speed tech for sure. I hear great things about their spindles too. Any one here have them? What about their new at Extremes?

To further elaborate on my wants, I want it to handle really well. Keep my gripped to the road. I want absolute control and something that keeps the biggest possible patch of tire connected with the ground. I know what I want. I make the mistake of assuming everyone else knows too and as some of u have pointed out, this is not a wise assumption.

Perhaps the how I should have done this thread was like this: please tell me which aftermarket subframe for a 2nd Gen u would get and why. I'm particularly interested in DSE and sppeedtech. Please tell me about ur experiences

[Twentyover]

Not being snarky. U misread that. I was sincerely asking if he thinks that these 2nd Gen subframe may not be the best bang for the buck...

I think in post 21 Parsons told you exactly that. Each individual needs to decide for themselves if the incremental improvement a subframe provides is worth the cost to them. It wasn't for me.


...

As far as steering boxes go; u have a 600 box and I have heard that I won't notice much difference between it and DSE,s rack and pinion. That is another upsetting thing to me. Not that I'm not happy with the 600 box. I love it. Best improvement I ever made to the car for performance and safety. Pozzi's car has an AME subframe in doesn't it? I think I'd pick DSE or speed tech for sure. I hear great things about their spindles too. Any one here have them? What about their new at Extremes?

To further elaborate on my wants, I want it to handle really well. Keep my gripped to the road. I want absolute control and something that keeps the biggest possible patch of tire connected with the ground. I know what I want. I make the mistake of assuming everyone else knows too and as some of u have pointed out, this is not a wise assumption.

Perhaps the how I should have done this thread was like this: please tell me which aftermarket subframe for a 2nd Gen u would get and why. I'm particularly interested in DSE and sppeedtech. Please tell me about ur experiences

Remember Pozzi was winning championships with a stock sub for years.

[NOT A TA]

"I'm not going to be officially racing the car so I don't care about rules and all that crap. Any racing I do is street racing and for fun."

"I also want to get a 10" tire on the front with decent deep-dish, pro-touring-looking 18" wheels"

"Yeah, I know I wasn't going to get a side by side comparison like that, but I was hoping people who have made the switch would chime in, talk about the handling, talk about the stance, etc."

"I was particularly refering to tire fitment, ride quality, and geometry. Value is a big measuring stick too"

"I have heard several people mention now that the OEM clip isn't that bad. It makes me wonder if it's a waste of time and money all together."

"I really want 10s up front, but if it's generally thought to be pointless I think I could be convinced of that too."

"To further elaborate on my wants, I want it to handle really well. Keep my gripped to the road. I want absolute control and something that keeps the biggest possible patch of tire connected with the ground."

It's been entertaining following this thread. I originally started to watch because I was interested if some folks had experience with more than one aftermarket subframe and might share it. But that hasn't happened.

However, based on the statements made by the OP I've listed above I'm gonna crawl out on a limb and say an aftermarket sub is a waste of money in this case. Without putting the car in off street competitive activities WITH AN EXPERIENCED DRIVER who can utilize the benefits afforded by an aftermarket subframe WITH OPTIMIZED COMPONENTS (wheels/tires/brakes, etc.) the advantages of an aftermarket subframe over a stock subframe with better components will probably be minimal for the use suggested by the OP.

Based on the information provided by the OP so far I'd recommend.

Use the stock subframe with solid body mounts.

Install subframe connectors.

Install a package from one of the vendors that replaces all of the suspension components.

275 front tires will fit in the stock front wheel wells on a 9.5 rim. Because the tire lip part of the rim isn't included in the width of the wheel the actual overall rim width will be over 10" so if the OP wants he can call them 10" wheels. If the OP just can't live without actual 10" wheels a 285 tire will fit in the stock wheel well but the turning radius has to be limited a bit depending on swaybar model and mounting.

UHP 200 TW or less sticky tires.

[David Pozzi]

Advantages of a stock 2nd Gen Camaro/Firebird sub:
Cheap, you already have it.

Disadvantages of the first gen sub: problem - remedy

Poor camber curve - tall upper ball joints
Low positive caster - Aftermarket A arms
Rubber A arm bushings that flex - GW Del-A-Lum are best, or other vendors Delrin bushings
Flexible Subframe - G braces
275x18 tire limit - cut fenders, run a 315, or live with the 275's. A Firebird may clear bigger tires, I dont' have experience with them.
Poor Ackerman steering geometry - run toe out
No rack and pinion/weight - Saginaw box is not a drawback as far as feel, but heavier, probably a 30 lb weight penalty for a stock sub over aftermarket sub. Rack and pinions are less reliable, have slower ratios, and less firm feel than a good Saginaw box. They do have very low play.
Brake knock back with 14" rotors - ATS or CPP spindles with Corvette hubs.
If you are going to try different front spring rates the stock sub is not adjustable for ride height - Add coil adjusters with 9.5" "stock appearing" NASCAR coils, or coil overs and triple adjust shocks.


Advantages of an aftermarket sub:

Vastly improved Camber curve
improved positive Caster
More room for wider wheels and tires
Better access to the shocks for height adjustment/tuning/changes.
Three hole front sway bar adjustment (on some subs)
Higher torsional rigidity
Not easy to get enough Ackerman, - run toe out.
Usually uses a Corvette (or Speed Tech) knuckle assy with Corvette bearing assy, low to no brake knock back, lighter weight components.
Much more room around the engine compartment, less bulky subframe so there is more room to run hoses, etc. Better access to reach in. Header clearance to frame rails is usually not improved,- the frame rails are moved inward for more wheel clearance.

Dis-advantages:
Cost
No cheap solid A arm bushings for Corvette A arm subs. I think Ride Tech is coming out with some Delrin bushings. LG makes spherical A arm bearings which cost around $1000.00 for the front. There are Urethane bushings but they are not a good option. Corvettes have a lower A arm cam bolt adjustment which moves the A arm bores out of line, (in and out) so either rubber, Polyurethane, or Spherical bearings must be used. Most all aftermarket subs have no lower A arm adjustment so they can use Delrin bushings.
Verify the design ride height and see if it's the height you want to run your car at.

There are many good aftermarket subs:
Art Morrison
DSE
Speed Tech (They have a new improved design out)
Schwartz (I have no experience with this suspension, but he has a great reputation.)
No-Limit Sniper IFS ( worth a look, new design)
These are my favorites, but there are more. The above are all great to deal with.

For your use, I would stick with the stock sub and work with it. You are not running timed autocrosses so the extra second or two faster you could go with an aftermarket sub isn't going to be important. If you could fit a 315 up front on a stock sub, and fix all the other things, it would come very close to what an aftermarket sub could do. If cost was not a limitation, I'd recommend an aftermarket sub. They are just better all around.

Mary's 73 Camaro did well with the stock sub and mods, but when people started running 315 front tires and even larger, we had to upgrade mainly to get more rubber up front. I really like how easy it is to work around the aftermarket sub, & we saved some weight.

[NOT A TA]

EXCELLENT post Dave! I'm going to refer folks to it in the future.

[cpd004]

Thanks for your insight!

[killer69]

WHEWW.
I would probably suggest our Street Fighter upgrade for the stock sub, using the ATS spindle. we can easily fit a 285 on the front and have lock to lock turning with no rubbing. you already have the steering box. so that saves you money. you can chose the standard Viking Warriors or upgrade to Viking Crusader or Ridetech Single or Tripple adjustable shocks (although I would recommend the Crusaders or single adjustable RT) this is a great Street package, check it out
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=53/category_id=36/mode=prod/prd53.htm

As For the Pontiac fitting our New sub it is not looking too promising at this point but I will let you know for sure ASAP.

[Schroeder]

Advantages of a stock 2nd Gen Camaro/Firebird sub:
Cheap, you already have it.

Disadvantages of the first gen sub: problem - remedy

Poor camber curve - tall upper ball joints
Low positive caster - Aftermarket A arms
Rubber A arm bushings that flex - GW Del-A-Lum are best, or other vendors Delrin bushings
Flexible Subframe - G braces
275x18 tire limit - cut fenders, run a 315, or live with the 275's. A Firebird may clear bigger tires, I dont' have experience with them.
Poor Ackerman steering geometry - run toe out
No rack and pinion/weight - Saginaw box is not a drawback as far as feel, but heavier, probably a 30 lb weight penalty for a stock sub over aftermarket sub. Rack and pinions are less reliable, have slower ratios, and less firm feel than a good Saginaw box. They do have very low play.
Brake knock back with 14" rotors - ATS or CPP spindles with Corvette hubs.
If you are going to try different front spring rates the stock sub is not adjustable for ride height - Add coil adjusters with 9.5" "stock appearing" NASCAR coils, or coil overs and triple adjust shocks.


Advantages of an aftermarket sub:

Vastly improved Camber curve
improved positive Caster
More room for wider wheels and tires
Better access to the shocks for height adjustment/tuning/changes.
Three hole front sway bar adjustment (on some subs)
Higher torsional rigidity
Not easy to get enough Ackerman, - run toe out.
Usually uses a Corvette (or Speed Tech) knuckle assy with Corvette bearing assy, low to no brake knock back, lighter weight components.
Much more room around the engine compartment, less bulky subframe so there is more room to run hoses, etc. Better access to reach in. Header clearance to frame rails is usually not improved,- the frame rails are moved inward for more wheel clearance.

Dis-advantages:
Cost
No cheap solid A arm bushings for Corvette A arm subs. I think Ride Tech is coming out with some Delrin bushings. LG makes spherical A arm bearings which cost around $1000.00 for the front. There are Urethane bushings but they are not a good option. Corvettes have a lower A arm cam bolt adjustment which moves the A arm bores out of line, (in and out) so either rubber, Polyurethane, or Spherical bearings must be used. Most all aftermarket subs have no lower A arm adjustment so they can use Delrin bushings.
Verify the design ride height and see if it's the height you want to run your car at.

There are many good aftermarket subs:
Art Morrison
DSE
Speed Tech (They have a new improved design out)
Schwartz (I have no experience with this suspension, but he has a great reputation.)
No-Limit Sniper IFS ( worth a look, new design)
These are my favorites, but there are more. The above are all great to deal with.

For your use, I would stick with the stock sub and work with it. You are not running timed autocrosses so the extra second or two faster you could go with an aftermarket sub isn't going to be important. If you could fit a 315 up front on a stock sub, and fix all the other things, it would come very close to what an aftermarket sub could do. If cost was not a limitation, I'd recommend an aftermarket sub. They are just better all around.

Mary's 73 Camaro did well with the stock sub and mods, but when people started running 315 front tires and even larger, we had to upgrade mainly to get more rubber up front. I really like how easy it is to work around the aftermarket sub, & we saved some weight.


THIS THIS THIS! this is ALL I wanted. Great, great, great post. I have in the works to do literally every single fix u listed to the stock subframe. I have already done a couple of them.

Killer69, Lmk on the speedtech subframe. It'd be awesome if it did fit. I'd like to know where the problem areas are if it doesn't. I'll keep talking to u about this.

[badazz81z28]

I know I'm late to this party, but proof is on the pavement. The second gens among others that are dominating the autocross all have DSE components. Tucker, Finch, Alderman, Mcgilton, Stielow....they are ALWAYS winning events or placing very high.

keep in mind though, all DSE parts are much money! Not something you really need unless you want the absolute top of the line parts. All the "extras" add up too. Headers, frame stands, crossmember...DSE specific. There are more cost effective just as good parts. Me on ther other hand, all DSE for me!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/07/1436036838_zpsef6233fb-1.jpg

[dhutton]

I know I'm late to this party, but proof is on the pavement. The second gens among others that are dominating the autocross all have DSE components. Tucker, Finch, Alderman, Mcgilton, Stielow....they are ALWAYS winning events or placing very high.

keep in mind though, all DSE parts are much money! Not something you really need unless you want the absolute top of the line parts. All the "extras" add up too. Headers, frame stands, crossmember...DSE specific. There are more cost effective just as good parts. Me on ther other hand, all DSE for me!
]

What about Mary Pozzi? AME front sub and rear IRS... She does pretty good considering she does not have DSE.... :poke:

The one thing about DSE is that in addition to excellent engineers they are outstanding marketeers. They have an almost iPhone like following that none of the other companies seem to come close to.

Don

[badazz81z28]

Mary doesn't seem to ever compete at the events I have seen. I think I saw her at OUSCI in 2010...

[David Pozzi]

Mary will run her Camaro at the Speedway Motors CAM challenge at Piru Grissom air base Aug 7.
http://www.scca.com/articles/1994642-scca-and-speedway-motors-partner-for-cam-challenge-invitation-to-goodguys-autocross-finals

I like the DSE subframe. Kyle and Stacy and their team have built up a great reputation, their stuff is very well tested and proven, and they support their customers at the Goodguys Autocrosses and some other events. I think any other company would like to have their reputation and customer loyalty. Mary's car is much faster now than it was on stock type suspension & we are happy with AME on her car. The new IRS has helped it go even faster. I have the same AME suspension front and rear for my 67 Camaro. Mary was the second fastest car to Bruce Cambern's Cobra at the last Pleasanton Goodguys autocross running against Brian Hobaugh in his dad's Vette, and Mike Maier driving his wife's Mustang. I think the Cambern Cobra's handling is much improved over last year. Last year at the Goodguys finals in Scottsdale Mary finished 4th to 3 Corvettes. The year before (2013) she finished 3rd to the Danny Popp Vette & Cambern Cobra. But I suspect the cars with Rival S tires will be tough to beat this year if Columbus was an indication.

[Rod]

entertaining thread to say the least.....I always like when newbie's ask for the best!! ...

(soap box please)

so here is my two cents, there is no best...there is a compromise in each and all devices you choose, if there was ONE best there wouldn't be a need for anything else..great info has been given here and as long as you ask the questions correctly (and don't get upset if we whittle down the request to find the root need) you will be rewarded with great answers...myself and others here breath, eat, race, tune and build these cars and will give a pretty honest evaluation...if its not what you wanted to hear...listen more openly

so there is NO BEST frame, arm, tire, wheel, suspension, shock, wire harness, whatever....just a device to serve your immediate need with some compromise... now i will say that the BEST item you can invest in is.....you.... so educate yourself on suspension, geometry, design and driving techniques and you will be happy with your design/build choices then

(stepping down)

[parsonsj]

so here is my two cents, there is no best...there is a compromise in each and all devices you choose, if there was ONE best there wouldn't be a need for anything else..great info has been given here and as long as you ask the questions correctly (and don't get upset if we whittle down the request to find the root need) you will be rewarded with great answers...myself and others here breath, eat, race, tune and build these cars and will give a pretty honest evaluation...if its not what you wanted to hear...listen more openly

so there is NO BEST frame, arm, tire, wheel, suspension, shock, wire harness, whatever....just a device to serve your immediate need with some compromise... now i will say that the BEST item you can invest in is.....you.... so educate yourself on suspension, geometry, design and driving techniques and you will be happy with your design/build choices then

Well put.

[Rod]

One other thing: tell me to get the **** out again, and you'll be banned from this site.



ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... Parsons your nicer than me, I don't give warnings .....

[Schroeder]

The AME irs was something I looked at. Looks awesome. I was hoping to get something more proven though. More testimonies.

The AME subframe is very light, isn't it dave? I also looked at that one. I can't remember anymore if it had stats on caster and camber and how much it improved them, but it sure looked good!

The rival s's are one of the tires I've been considering as well. I'm in the market for them.

[TheJDMan]

the BEST item you can invest in is.....you.... so educate yourself on suspension, geometry, design and driving techniques and you will be happy with your design/build choices then

Pay attention to what Rod is saying here!!! Virtually everything you have ask about, has been covered on this site at some point in time. Many of the specific choices you have mentioned have been installed by members of PT and have been documented in the Project Updates section. Your best course of action would be to spend a few months just reading the build threads and suspension posts to gain a feel for what members have done and how it has worked for them. The more you educate yourself the better decision you will ultimately be able to make for your anticipated use. I would also add that Rod is one of our PT members who really knows what he is talking about. I recommend you start your research by reading Rod's build thread.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/65204-1968-Camaro-%28projekt-1sickT8%29

[David Pozzi]

The AME sub has a very good amount of neg camber gain and a very clean layout. The bare weight is just slightly lighter than a stock sub. I would guess other subs are in the same ballpark too. It takes a certain amount of metal to do the job. The weight savings comes from everything else you bolt to it. I torsionally tested ours and it's at least a third stiffer than stock. We are running it without the normal G braces we ran on the stock sub. What attracted us to the AME sub was they let us option it the way we wanted it, without shocks so we could run our Ride Tech triples on it, and we put Baer brakes on it instead of the Wilwood brakes they sell. The way they build them, you can request small changes and they can do it for you. It took them about a month to build it for us.

You won't find many reports on the IRS because most cars that have it are still under construction. As far as I know, the AME 69 Camaro test car and Mary's Camaro are the only two running right now, but they have sold a lot of them this year.

I agree with Rod, - "Invest in yourself" is the best advice I ever heard. Cars and trick parts come and go but knowledge and skills developed last a lifetime.