I give up. 3 braking systems and each time it gets worse. Car still has no brakes.

[cactuss4]

So I have enough threads including one with Ron helping a ton and getting me some information that I used to swap out my wilwood master 1.18" for a smaller wilwood 1" master, that didn't seem to help much, so I said screw it knowing I didn't make enough vacuum and went with a hydroboost system, everything new but kept my Wilwood 1" Master Cylinder. I've replaced all the lines, have bled with a vacuum bleeder at each corner numerous times, I have tried the push the brake pedal 3 times, open, close thang with my son (he would love for me to pick him up from school in the Chevelle, but with 3 days of school left that's not going to happen.

So to recap I have wilwood 6pot front, 4 pot rear with integrated emerg brake (these are new, since it only had rear brakes no emerg brake), with a 1" Master Cylinder and a wilwood prop valve (Default setup (meaning I have not turned or tweaked it) now a hydroboost unit with a new power steering pump.

I've gone through 2.5 bottles of brake fluid, I have read some people ran into a pesky air bubble, but I have almost no braking ability at any wheels. I can have my son push the pedal it goes to the floor and I may feel a slight resistance when turning the wheel by hand, but not really.

It seems simple to me, but everything I have done seems to have made it worse, where I could sort of stop with the 1.18 and 8" booster, I had less than with the 1" and the 8" booster, and now with the hydroboost setup I have nothing.

I mean I could sit there with a vacuum bleeder at each corner for a bottle of fluid, I have a case of the stuff but doesn't seem to be helping..

Could the prop valve be causing an issue, I just really don't now what I can do. Be patient, bleed it more and more, or is there stuff in the way not allowing it to bleed? Master cylinder (bench bled), prop valve (kind of a black box) and then the connections, lines and calipers themselves.

I don't mind doing this stuff, but I seem to be failing and keep digging a bigger hole. Bah!!

Thanks for listening.
Tory

[Nicks67GTO]

So I have enough threads including one with Ron helping a ton and getting me some information that I used to swap out my wilwood master 1.18" for a smaller wilwood 1" master, that didn't seem to help much, so I said screw it knowing I didn't make enough vacuum and went with a hydroboost system, everything new but kept my Wilwood 1" Master Cylinder. I've replaced all the lines, have bled with a vacuum bleeder at each corner numerous times, I have tried the push the brake pedal 3 times, open, close thang with my son (he would love for me to pick him up from school in the Chevelle, but with 3 days of school left that's not going to happen.

So to recap I have wilwood 6pot front, 4 pot rear with integrated emerg brake (these are new, since it only had rear brakes no emerg brake), with a 1" Master Cylinder and a wilwood prop valve (Default setup (meaning I have not turned or tweaked it) now a hydroboost unit with a new power steering pump.

I've gone through 2.5 bottles of brake fluid, I have read some people ran into a pesky air bubble, but I have almost no braking ability at any wheels. I can have my son push the pedal it goes to the floor and I may feel a slight resistance when turning the wheel by hand, but not really.

It seems simple to me, but everything I have done seems to have made it worse, where I could sort of stop with the 1.18 and 8" booster, I had less than with the 1" and the 8" booster, and now with the hydroboost setup I have nothing.

I mean I could sit there with a vacuum bleeder at each corner for a bottle of fluid, I have a case of the stuff but doesn't seem to be helping..

Could the prop valve be causing an issue, I just really don't now what I can do. Be patient, bleed it more and more, or is there stuff in the way not allowing it to bleed? Master cylinder (bench bled), prop valve (kind of a black box) and then the connections, lines and calipers themselves.

I don't mind doing this stuff, but I seem to be failing and keep digging a bigger hole. Bah!!

Thanks for listening.
Tory

This sounds like my problems last December. I had a hell of a time bleeding my system. After figuring out I had a bad master cylinder out of the box and getting a new one bench bled properly, I still had issues bleeding. One of the things I did that seemed to get me on track was making sure the Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve was bled well, before moving on to the wheels. I cracked the line open in the bottom of the valve and cycled the pedal until all air was bubbled out then moved to the wheels. For whatever reason this seemed to help get it done.

[71RS/SS396]

Disconnect one of the lines from the master and plug the port on the master. Then see if you have a pedal.

[Red67Mustang]

So no brakes but firm pedal, or no brakes and pedal goes to the floor?

[killer69]

My .02 worth. DITCH the Hydroboost and just run manual brakes!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. We do ALL our cars with manual brakes and no complaints. If you get that system to work with a 1" master on a Hydro boost you will only have to LOOK at the brake pedal and your face will be in the windshield. that I will guarantee!
Manual brakes come on ALL race cars. You will have more feel and more feed back. The firewall will look nicer you will have saved time and money and made your life easy. I like easy.
We did one car with hydroboost and that was the end of that. (sorry Hydroboost people)
that 1" master will bolt right on to the firewall. it is the correct size for the calipers you have

[andrewb70]

My .02 worth. DITCH the Hydroboost and just run manual brakes!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. We do ALL our cars with manual brakes and no complaints. If you get that system to work with a 1" master on a Hydro boost you will only have to LOOK at the brake pedal and your face will be in the windshield. that I will guarantee!
Manual brakes come on ALL race cars. You will have more feel and more feed back. The firewall will look nicer you will have saved time and money and made your life easy. I like easy.
We did one car with hydroboost and that was the end of that. (sorry Hydroboost people)
that 1" master will bolt right on to the firewall. it is the correct size for the calipers you have

This is my vote as well. You can use a 1977 Malibu 15/16" bore MC. It will bolt right to your firewall but you will have to adapt the pushrod. I ran this set-up for years with my C6 ZO6 fronts and C4 years. I then swapped over to a Dodge Sprint 7/8" bore MC when I installed the LS1 rear brakes. The brakes work great and the pedal is soft enough that my GF can drive the car if need me...

Andrew

[Hydratech®]

Read through this link carefully - especially the part regarding master cylinder piston preload.

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

[72BBSwinger]

I have a Mopar 15/16" bore manual setup and have no desire for power. Also, I have seen calipers that needed un bolted and the bleeders pointed straight up to get the air out. I zip tie a vacuum hose to each bleeder with a heavy brass fitting on one end in an empty, and dry, water bottle half full of brake fluid and slowly pump the peddle to the floor and slowly release about 5 times per bleeder and then tighten. All the air floats to the top of the fluid in the water bottle and then it sucks back in nothing but fluid. Simple, clean and effective. Plus you can do it solo.

[cactuss4]

Sorry I have no firmness in the pedal.

[Hydratech®]

I invite you to call my guy Jim Petty to discuss:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/contact.html

Even though you are working with a DIY hydroboost scenario, we can help you out. A simple few minutes on the phone with Jim may very well get your scenario straightened right out!

[tumper93]

I have hydraboost and would not go to a manual system for anything, just my opinion. Plus you already have it. I run my hydraboost with a 1" master in a 68 Camaro and braking is very predictable and efficient. If you have bleed that much with no pedal I would do like was mentioned and block both master cylinder ports with old fittings with well pinched lines and see if you have firm pedal. If not, pump and see if the pedal gets hard, if so you never bleed the air from the master. Next move to the RR and start bleeding with a hose submerged in a half filled bottle of fluid and slowly pump the pedal, do a 10 count as you push down and let back up. Move to LR, then RF and LF. You have air in the system at some point. Air loves lines with a arch in it. Do these things and you will solve your problem.

[cactuss4]

Ya this thread is not really about what system is preferred because opinions are across the board, it's all about why the heck I can't get the air out of my system. I've done a few things this evening and let's see what it says to those with more brains than I.

I bled the MC again and then I pulled the lines to the prop valve off and hooked a brake line between the front and rear coming out of the MC, the brake pedal never did get rock hard, even though there was really nothing to push against. So I'm not clear if this is a failed test attempt and this will never work, or ya thats an issue.

I reconnected the prop valve to the master and pulled the line from a front brake off the prop valve and applied slight vacuum directly to the prop valve F0 port, I got nothing. This confuses me. Again this could totally be flawed, but I expected to see fluid coming out and there was none. so I don't understand how/why the prop valve is not passing fluid.

I'm also not sure how I have pedal travel with the master out ports tied to each other.

So now what am I being stupid about? I figured I would back track, bleed the MC again (which I did) and then figured (maybe wrongly) that tying the front and rear together would be the same as blocking off both ports..

So slap me again and I'll try something else. The idea that the MC is bad and that folks have gotten bad MC's from Wilwood in the past makes me wonder, since this MC with the 8" booster, was really bad where as the previous master was just soft.. So maybe, just didn't think these could be bad, they seem fairly basic, piston in, push fluid out arr arr arr..

Thanks for helping!
Tory

[Nicks67GTO]

Are you bench bleeding the master cylinder off the car, by hand on a workbench? What bench bleed method are you using?

[minendrews68]

On your brake cylinders (especially on the rear) some are positioned that they hold air at the top of the cylinder. A fix to this is to take the cylinder loose and tilt the cylinder upward, this will allow the air to escape. (you only take one of the bolts loose so as to not let the brake pads come out of contact with the rotor.) Just a thought, it's what I had to do to mine.

[Hydratech®]

Going back to one of your earlier posts, I believe I have spotted where your problem may be:

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111993&stc=1&d=1429920202

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/114799-Hmmm-hydroboost-with-Wilwood-master-and-Wilwood-prop-valve-won-t-clear-fender-well

It looks like you have the stock late model GM master cylinder pushrod installed in your DIY built hydroboost package. This gold colored rod (that I believe I am seeing in the small pic where the MC is not bolted down) is .065" too long for use with the Wilwood / earlier muscle car MC's (when running the spacer bullet / plug in the backside of the MC). Speaking of which, you are using the Wilwood supplied spacer bullet / plug, right? If not, you have a considerably deep MC pushrod hole in the backside of the MC that you could stick a pencil into about an inch. This would mean that no matter how far you pushed your brake pedal, you would never actuate the MC pistons (short / late GM pushrod attempting to actuate an early / long MC pushrod spec MC). Since you can't get any fluid to even gravity bleed, I am leaning towards you having the spacer bullet installed into the Wilwood MC, but the MC pistons are applied / preloaded because of the MC pushrod being too long in your DIY hydroboost. Temporarily grab some washers of equal thickness and shim the master cylinder away from the brake unit at least .065". If everything starts working as it is supposed to, then we have nailed the problem.

Sooooo, if everything is now working, what is the correction? You could remove the spacer bullet out of the backside of the Wilwood MC (sometimes will come out without effort on the latest Wilwood MC's, though sometimes needs to be coaxed out with compressed air). If you have an earlier model of the Wilwood MC, a nuclear blast may not even get the spacer bullet to come back out (as it was a different design that would mushroom out at the forward most end deep inside). If you can get the spacer bullet out, grind a few thousandths off of the front face of the bullet at a time to remove the MC piston preload condition:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17060

Alternately, you could make up a permanent shim to space the master cylinder further out from the brake unit casting. Or? If you are adventurous, you can coax the MC pushrod out of the face of the hydraulic brake assist unit and then shorten it instead. If you worked very carefully with a little Dremel hand buzz bomb, you *could* very carefully buzz the tip of the MC pushrod while it is still installed in the brake unit, then give the "mouth" of the brake unit a very thorough blast of compressed air to remove any metal powder out of the brake unit...

Summary? Shim the MC away from the brake unit temporarily using a couple of washers on each MC mounting stud. If everything gets "happy", then get the brake system bled out, road test it for proper operations, THEN back chase the MC piston preload condition (to remove the need for the washers shimming the MC away from the brake unit).

We discard all of the OEM Bosch MC pushrods and install our own to insure proper MC piston clearances in Hydratech produced systems...

:cheers:

[72BBSwinger]

Wow, .065 and your screwed? I must be real lucky.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I've learned that pushrod depths can be really difficult. I learned the hard way I had my pushrod about 1/8" too long. It wouldn't allow fluid to return to the reservoir, but at a gradual pace. I could drive up the street for a bit, about a mile or two, and at some point my front brakes would be totally locked up. I even went through the trouble of relocating my brake lines further from the engine because I thought it was being heated. Then I tried the pushrod. Just another D'oh! moment.

[79-TA]

So the push rod was the culprit?

This is a very helpful link for troubleshooting most hot rod related brake system issues.

http://www.classicperform.com/TechBook/BrakeTroubleshoot.htm

[cactuss4]

Going back to one of your earlier posts, I believe I have spotted where your problem may be:

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=111993&stc=1&d=1429920202

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/114799-Hmmm-hydroboost-with-Wilwood-master-and-Wilwood-prop-valve-won-t-clear-fender-well

It looks like you have the stock late model GM master cylinder pushrod installed in your DIY built hydroboost package. This gold colored rod (that I believe I am seeing in the small pic where the MC is not bolted down) is .065" too long for use with the Wilwood / earlier muscle car MC's (when running the spacer bullet / plug in the backside of the MC). Speaking of which, you are using the Wilwood supplied spacer bullet / plug, right? If not, you have a considerably deep MC pushrod hole in the backside of the MC that you could stick a pencil into about an inch. This would mean that no matter how far you pushed your brake pedal, you would never actuate the MC pistons (short / late GM pushrod attempting to actuate an early / long MC pushrod spec MC). Since you can't get any fluid to even gravity bleed, I am leaning towards you having the spacer bullet installed into the Wilwood MC, but the MC pistons are applied / preloaded because of the MC pushrod being too long in your DIY hydroboost. Temporarily grab some washers of equal thickness and shim the master cylinder away from the brake unit at least .065". If everything starts working as it is supposed to, then we have nailed the problem.

Sooooo, if everything is now working, what is the correction? You could remove the spacer bullet out of the backside of the Wilwood MC (sometimes will come out without effort on the latest Wilwood MC's, though sometimes needs to be coaxed out with compressed air). If you have an earlier model of the Wilwood MC, a nuclear blast may not even get the spacer bullet to come back out (as it was a different design that would mushroom out at the forward most end deep inside). If you can get the spacer bullet out, grind a few thousandths off of the front face of the bullet at a time to remove the MC piston preload condition:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17060

Alternately, you could make up a permanent shim to space the master cylinder further out from the brake unit casting. Or? If you are adventurous, you can coax the MC pushrod out of the face of the hydraulic brake assist unit and then shorten it instead. If you worked very carefully with a little Dremel hand buzz bomb, you *could* very carefully buzz the tip of the MC pushrod while it is still installed in the brake unit, then give the "mouth" of the brake unit a very thorough blast of compressed air to remove any metal powder out of the brake unit...

Summary? Shim the MC away from the brake unit temporarily using a couple of washers on each MC mounting stud. If everything gets "happy", then get the brake system bled out, road test it for proper operations, THEN back chase the MC piston preload condition (to remove the need for the washers shimming the MC away from the brake unit).

We discard all of the OEM Bosch MC pushrods and install our own to insure proper MC piston clearances in Hydratech produced systems...

:cheers:

Okay thanks again all and Paul, I've found your links and suggestions to be really valuable. to answer some of these questions.

I'm not using a stock Rod, I've tapped and threaded something custom to bolt to the Manual hole in my Brake pedal and modified the length so that the MC / hydraboost/adaptor bolted correctly, without binding (this took a bit, like quite a few revisions).. OHH you are talking between the MC and the Boost unit.. Ahh this seemed to fit cleanly, but I'm going to take a look at your suggestions to see about this preload.

I am using the wilwood bullet/adaptor and feel that my connection between hydroboost and MC is correct. (read above, I see what you were saying now).

So one more note before I get to my current status..

You posted something initially to help me troubleshoot (I've not bought anything from you, yet you have given me 2 well thought out posts with great links and I appreciate this!, This is what I like to see from forum/site sponsors, so many site sponsors in other places just drive buy sale posts vs trying to help, so again THANK YOU!). So what I was going to say, is I posted another thread with my rear diff making a clunk sound, what that was was my rear integrated brakes, they were loose and the rotor was allowed to move freely when not engaged, you posted a URL that had a nice tidbit regarding folks that install integrated ebrake systems and that you have to adjust them and how to (So that's on the books for this weekend).. Thanks again!

Now, I appear to have brakes!!! I took all my vacuum bleeders, compressor assisted bleeders etc and threw them in the corner. I went to the old, put a line on the caliper, put the other end in a dot 4 bottle with enough fluid to cover the hose (I made some hose adaptors that kept the line under the fluid), and started with the rear calipers (outside bleeders) and I took a big piece of PVC and just pumped my brakes, in, out, in out, innnnnn out, etc.etc. After some time, I started getting fluid and started getting a ton of air, this appears to kick start good stuff as things were then starting to gravity bleed, I had enough flow that the system was bleeding it self (only had 1 bottle overflow!:), but I kept fluid in my MC and just let it go. AFter quite sometime I got nothing but fluid and moved to the front, same thing, took a bit of priming. I thought I was good, took a break but came out today and found a big puddle under my tire, then under my car. I found a leaky connection that kept purging fluid (but it didn't drain my MC but did give me a good idea where I had a leak, that if brake fluid could get out, air could get in. I worked on that today, had my son come out and while he was rotating the tires (car is up on the lift), I pushed the brake pedal and the tire stopped, I had him do it and I couldn't move the tires (this is big news!). Now I need to start the car and see what the hydroboost adds and see if it's still quiet or not.

This weekend I plan to carefully pull it out of the garage and test (issue here is I live on a large hill, my driveway and my streets are not a good place to be testing brakes (but my emergency brakes are crazy good, so after some testing moving 1-3' inside my garage, I will move out to the driveway and if my brakes stop me from uncontrollably leaving my driveway and parking in my neighbors pool, I will be good.

I'm still monitoring the area that had the leak, as I need to make sure I have that tight.

But as of right now the subject should read, holy crap, I think I have brakes. Thanks to everyone and the ideas.

One more note: I think there is some worth in getting a hydroboost unit with the proper rod to brake pedal and it sounds like there is some clearance needs between the booster and the MC as well. While I may have had less problems with a complete kit, I would be out more than an additional $500, however I may eat that back up coloring my hair after this added a ton more gray!!

Thanks again!
Tory

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

Cool, glad to hear you're on the right track. Good luck, and keep us posted!

[72BBSwinger]

Cool, once it gravity bleeds that IS a good sign. Glad you're making head way.

[cactuss4]

Well I have brakes.. I took it for a drive (first time in over a year) and she stops, stops well. Issue is the distance my foot has to come up from the accelerator to the brake pedal, I will have to see if there is a remedy for that as that is an unnatural movement for me and I found my self hitting the side of the brake pedal a couple of times.

I still have some power steering noise on start, doesn't matter if it's been running for 5 minutes or a cold start, ignition on, fire and I'm a squeaky bird (I hit the brakes hard to test and killed the motor and the restart caused it to scream some more. So I'll have to keep working on bleeding. I'm not feeling any kickback and again the brakes feel really good, i think I can trust the setup that I have to stop, actually locked up my tires (which is another thing I need to adjust. AS part of my troubleshooting, I opened the prop valve all the way, so I'll have to start working on closing it a bit and getting the right amount of brake bias..

Sooo this is good, she left the garage and bothered my neighbors for a few laps (the Chevelle is in no way quiet, hell side exit exhaust big cammed 396, she is loud. (mufflers? not that I remember )..

So again next things are to tune the prop valve, get an alignment (steering is still a bit loose even with the Jeep steering box.) .. So it was good to drive, but man did I mention it is loud??

Thanks again for all the help!

Tory

[minendrews68]

I've learned that pushrod depths can be really difficult. I learned the hard way I had my pushrod about 1/8" too long. It wouldn't allow fluid to return to the reservoir, but at a gradual pace. I could drive up the street for a bit, about a mile or two, and at some point my front brakes would be totally locked up. I even went through the trouble of relocating my brake lines further from the engine because I thought it was being heated. Then I tried the pushrod. Just another D'oh! moment.
The exact same thing was wrong with mine a while back! I could drive a few miles and the brakes would lock up, I wound up loosening the MC from the booster to get home. ( first time I had to bleed pressure by loosening the front brake line at the MC.) I wound up putting a shim between the MC and booster. About .060 did it for me.

[cactuss4]

The exact same thing was wrong with mine a while back! I could drive a few miles and the brakes would lock up, I wound up loosening the MC from the booster to get home. ( first time I had to bleed pressure by loosening the front brake line at the MC.) I wound up putting a shim between the MC and booster. About .060 did it for me.

I could totally machine the bullet if need be, this is a newer unit and it previously just slid out.. I'll do some more testing

[cactuss4]

Final update on this. I have brakes that will suck the teeth out of the back of your head.. Okay not quite since my tires are not that gooey, but these brakes stop.

So far I'm very happy with the hydroboost setup and yes they are touchy, but my cars are all similar, so it's nice to have a 66 Chevelle that brakes harder but with similar feeling as my Audi S4. I'm still getting a tad bit of whine, but figured give it a bit more mileage to get all the air out, but it's quieter, but still occasional screech on startup.

I'm still learning the brakes, but ya the are good, they will overcome the tires really easily but I have zero fears of not stopping (but then I'm only street driving at this point and understand how touchy they are). My big issue is the distance my foot has to come up from the accelerator to the brake pedal, it's too far, I need the brake pedal lowered and I need the throttle raised, I'll work on this later.

But thanks for all the help, it really was going old school and pumping the **** out of them that got me past my hump.

Wilwood 1.0 Master, Hydroboost pump, dual inlet power steering pump, 6 pot front wilwood brakes 4 pot rear with integrated emerg Brake. This has been such a long process, but ya I'm happy!! and yes they are touchy but manageable..

Thanks again!
Tory

[Twentyover]

You could always change the pedal ratio to give a little less sensitivity...

[cactuss4]

Twenty over, not sure if I can. I would worry about the angle of the rod to the booster if I changed it at all. I think I would have to modify the angle that the current bracket holds the booster to the firewall and I guess I could shim it. I need more time with it before I decide it needs a perm fix.

Thanks

Tory

[72BBSwinger]

I think a bigger bore would "soften" the hit to if needed, 1 1/32" I think is next bigger bore.

[RobNoLimit]

I use 1 1/8" bore masters with any hydro install. 1" bore are to sensitive with the boost pressures.

[cactuss4]

I use 1 1/8" bore masters with any hydro install. 1" bore are to sensitive with the boost pressures.

And I just sold my 1 1/8... hahaha , oh maybe Matt get's yet another master cylinder sale.. bah!

Thanks
Tory