What Performance Figures Make Pro Tour?

[BRIAN]

Just curious what you guys would consider real performance figures to shoot for when designing a Pro Touring car? 0-60? skid pad G's. 1/4 mile? ETC? A lot of posts on how to squeeze that 300 tire on the front of a Camaro but what are the figures that you are hoping to produce??? Thanks

[protour_chevelle]

I dont like the way that is worded personally. Reason being, someone builds a car on a budget but its built for pro-touring. They cannot afford a big cube engine or a small cube forced induction engine so they have 2-300 RWHP numbers. Now I'm sure someone is going to reply saying in excess of 450 so now this guy isn't considered pro-touring.

The way I look at it. If the car is built to its full potential with the budget that the owner has, then its pro-touring. No if ands or buts. Not everyone can go out and buy a front clip, braced rear end, get frame boxed, DSandE upper arms, etc. They work with what they have. Only difference is that they have a pro-touring car on a budget. Can't knock it if the owner is trying.

-Matt

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I agree with Matt 100%. I would recommend making your own goals for your car based on your build. Maybe you're going for a mild street car that you want to ride very comfortably, and have all the creature comforts, maybe you want an all out race car, or maybe you're building a budget minded pro-tourer. You can't really make a set of "rules". Perfect (dramatized) example - A pro-touring car must weigh less than 3200lbs. While this goal is attainable for stripped down camaro's, it's going to be much harder for someone with a predominantantly street setup Big Block A-body (read: comforts) to reach.

FWIW here's mine...
My personal goals for Fantom:
.97-1G on the skidpad
0-60 in 4.2 seconds or better (car is going to be geared more for top end)
1320 in mid-high 11s on the 18" street tires
1320 in mid 10s on 16" slicks
Weigh in at 3000 dry weight. 3300 with full fluids/gas and me

But like it's already been said, my car is going to be built streetfighter style, it'll be stripped down with no creature comforts, except for a small removable stereo.

edit: Where in NY are you?

[yody]

Ralph i always hear about you and your removable stereo. You know a stereo weighs like 3 pounds. Why in the world make it removable?? I doubt you would ever feel the difference from removing it. As a matter of fact that materials/brackets that you need to make it removable will add weight. I think i would just install it and call it a day or leave it out all together. You will be splitting hairs.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Yody,

The stereo isn't removable for weight, but more for safety (of the car/components). It's actually an idea that I'm copying from Steevo's car. I, like him will have no rear seats and a rear firewall, so there isn't too much room to mount the speakers in the rear of the car. They're velcroed to the firewall if I remember correctly, and when you go racing, you can remove them so there is no risk of them bouncing all over the place and sliding across the firewall. It sounds like a crude setup from my description, but it's actually a pretty nice and ingenious setup for a car that will see auto-x and track time with limited mounting space. Maybe he will see this and go into more details. The front speakers will be stationary, but I need to do a remote cd changer layout, or whatever the proper term is due to the console and gauge placement on the dash

[yody]

sorry to hijack the post! ralph, i don't think any "velcroed" speakers are going to soudn very good :) wouldn't it make more sense to just make an "ingenious" way of permanently mountig the speakers? its your car, but I was just curious. good luck!

[TonyL]

here ya go ralph, just duct tape this to the roll bar. and cut it down when ya dont need it.

remember, when you get featured in a mag. i want credit for my idea!

:hah: :hah:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[KrisHorton]

Tony, you took the words right out of my mouth! I was thinking removable as in a boombox or something as well. That'd be sweet!

[slck6t9]

Well said Matt.

Scott

[Steve Chryssos]

To answer the original question, there arent a lot of cars on this site that have posted hard performance data. Lots of folks talk about 1g this and mid 10's that, but noone has really posted any data. The cars are out there: All of the Real Street competitors, the AME 55. So cars have been tested, but not enough. Ultimately these cars are built to enjoy. Taking an on ramp at 70mph is enough.

So the only available answer is: Better Than Stock. Goals can be set by targeting an RSE Champion such as Andrew Borodin's GTO or a factory supercar. Meeting or exceeding those goals takes more engineering, planning and tweaking than most expect.

As for the speaker thing, I'm certainly not the first guy to use removable speaker enclosures. So here's the breakdown for you wisenheimers:
1) Remove back seat cuz Camaro rear seats are useless--especially with a roll cage.
2) Add a sealed rear firewall for safety.
3) Maintain the integrity of that firewall by eliminating package tray mounted speakers.
4) Instead use speakers mounted in enclosures. You guys have heard of speaker enclosures right? Every stereophile SUV and ricer uses enclosures. So maybe you've heard of them or seen them. They're heavy. And they sound great.
5) The enclosures (not the speakers themselves, silly) are mounted to the horizontal portion (floor) of the firewall with super velcro available by the foot at a hardware store near you.

So when Ralph says removable stereo he really means removable speaker enclosures.
/Steevo

[TurboLark]

My take on Pro tuoring is a simple one :
Pro Touring is a muti use car with good performance in all catagories, handling, comfort, drivability, 1/4 mile. Most cars wont be the best in any one area, but an overall great car. Now everyone has their own style and desires. Some will spend more effort on handling, other appearance, whatever floats your boat. A drag car aint pro turing, and a road race car that runs 15's isnt really protouring either. Is a whole package.
Putting Pro touring into specific numbers just isnt reasonable.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Tony,

:lmao: x 234897

Steevo,

Thanks for the clarification, it was late and as it is I screw things up when trying to translate them. :hand: I should add for confirmation that Steve's stereo does sound great.

Steve's description of exceeding a factory supercar's performance figures are dead on. For me, it was the '04 Z06. They pull around 1G on the skidpad, and a bunch of them are turning High 11's bone stock, down to the tires. I think I've even heard as low as 11.7x.(With data/timeslips/vids/reputable sources to back it up). If you look at my goals, they're set pretty much on par with this, except for the 1/4 mile on slicks. I don't think I'll be able to do the 4 and somtimes sub 4 second 0-60 times, due to a lack of traction, so I'm shooting for 4.2. That's one of the goals that I think will be harder to attain.

[rumblee]

I also am setting the standards of my project by z06 performance. Pull close to 1g 11s on street tires etc. But it would be fun to be able to bust the 200mph barrier too :)

[BRIAN]

OK I had typed in whole page answer but it never made it? Basically the Z06 thing is what I was getting at. Hey I know there are budgets but that is why we all can't have what we want! A car with a stock engine and 8" tires isn't Pro Street no matter how much you want it to be. Sorry there is a price of admission to everything. Thats why I cant paint my car red and call it a Ferrari. I think Pro Touring does need to be defined.
Ralph I am in Nassau County. I am lost with the radio thing. Put it in under the seat and sink speakers in flor if you have to. 10's in a normally aspirated driveable car that can handle is expensive at best.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Brian,

Pretty cool that you're in Nassau, I'm in Suffolk but go to college in Nassau (C.W. Post). Steevo who posted above is also on the Island, but he's going to be leaving us soon to head West. I'm still deciding on the radio thing, but under the seat is a good idea for the head unit. I'm not sure if the 10's comment was directed at me, but my car's not going to be N/A. Fantom's getting a blown LS1. Probably stock cubes(346) but undecided... Forged internals, stage II 6L heads, blower cam (specs undecided), all bolt ons, LTs, etc., intercooled as well, possibly front mount. The engine should make over 400rwhp (hopefully more like 430rwhp) in N/A form, and hopefully around 650rwhp @12psi, with a lot of tuning.

[Stu Seitz]

I know this sounds like a stupid question but i'm not shure if it can even be done. Is a 3 g car obtainable? Meaning 1 lateral g on the skid pad, 1 g of acceleration at the track and 1 g of braking anywhere =P. Is this possible for a production car?

[protour_chevelle]

1g accelerating would be insane for a production car correct? I have no clue of what 1g feels like so I'm just guessing.

-Matt

[Stu Seitz]

1g accelerating would be insane for a production car correct? I have no clue of what 1g feels like so I'm just guessing.

-Matt

Sorry that came out wrong, what I want ment was, Could it come from a production car after modification or is it somthing that is only obtiable from a top fuel dragster?

[protour_chevelle]

Ohh, No clue there. lol

-Matt

[Darkclaw13]

1g accelerating would be insane for a production car correct? I have no clue of what 1g feels like so I'm just guessing.

-Matt

Well if you've ever been on a roller coaster that shoots you out to start instead of a lift hill, then you've felt more than 1g of acceleration. I think 1g of acceleration would be a lot of fun. Oh and if I remember correctly I think Top Fuel dragsters accelerated at like 3-4 g.

[alcino]

hi I'm new. As for the 3g being attainable, I think the hardest part is the lateral g. I did some engineerng math and if decel and accel are constant. It takes about 1.9 seconds to accel to 60ft from 0 mph to hit 1g, takes less than 122 feet to decel from 60mph to 0mph to hit 1g decel and for lateral one must attain a minumum of 38.5 mph going round a 200 foot diameter skidpad.

so With good tires and brakes I think a modified car can hit the accel and decel. Lateral usually takes really sticky tires and good suspension.

My take anyway.
Alcino

[harshman]

for lateral one must attain a minumum of 38.5 mph going round a 200 foot diameter skidpad.
Alcino

would you mind telling me the formula on that one?

[Salt Racer]

Lateral Acceleration (g) = 0.067 * MPH^2 / Radius (in feet)

You have to take track width into account for radius. Normally, this is done by going inside the circle on CW direction and outside the circle on CCW direction, then take the average.

[alcino]

For the formula I used A = V^2 /R
But the above works as well.

I wonder if the local Solo2 SCCA clubs are willing to hold a 3g test day? Has there ever been an event like this? I think that would be fun to see what she gots.

Alcino

[Salt Racer]

Yup, they are the same equation. 0.067 is just a conversion factor.

Lateral accel. in G = (accel. in ft/s^2)/(32.174 ft/s^2) = [(speed in miles/hr)^2 * (5280 ft/mile)^2/(3600 sec/hr)^2] / Radius in ft.

therefore conversion factor is...

5280^2 / 3600^2 *32.174 = 0.0669 ~ 0.067


Art Morrison will try to get close to 3G in his '60 Corvette project.