67 Firebird In Need Of Suspension - HOTCHKIS vs RIDETECH

[JakeD]

Hi all,
I have a 67 Firebird in great shape, could totally be someones dream car as is, however, I am not that someone. I want this car to run and drive. This said, the first matter at hand is that of suspension.

So, the question is, do I go:

Hotchkis TVS 2" or 3" Drop;
OR
RideTech Coilover System Stage 1, 2, or 3?

Currently, the car handles like a piece of ****. It floats through the corners, can't feel the road with the power steering (thinking of going rack and pinion?). Not to mention, the wheel gap on my car right now is driving me insane.. Eventually, I want to run 18 inch wheels with low profiles, the wider the better. Where can I find the best bang for my buck regarding these kits? I cant find a clear answer as to what the 3" drop looks like compared to 2". I feel like the 2" won't be enough, but I don't want to totally slam this thing to the ground. I have not done anything to the suspension. No subframe connectors, after market sway bars, etc. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Currently looks like:
https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112479&stc=1https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112478&stc=1https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112480&stc=1https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112481&stc=1

[Gil]

Hi Jake,

Welcome & nice car to start with !

All sponsors brands are nice here, depends your budget & what you''ll do with the car
for the stance, my car is 3" rear & 2" front drop big block springs from Hotchkis, bigger front swaybar & new shocks

already totally another car than stock...

check my thread for ride height with 15" wheels, 25 inches front & 24,5 inches rear from ground to fender lip

112482

this week-end I'll change for 17" & add pictures
Gil

[Kcorrigan2]

I would say part of this conversation is driven by your budget. My car was all Ridetech until a month or so ago. It handled well and with their TruTurn set up I could run a 275 wide tire. One of the big issues for me was the stiffness, or lack of, in the stock front sub frame and the limitations that sub has when it comes to the geometry in the front end.
I do believe that you can't go wrong with either of those companies but I would encourage you to add up the cost of the parts and compare that to a complete front sub. Mine is engineered and built by No Limit and I could not be happier.
As for the shocks, it depends how serious you are going to get. I would at least get single adjustable. This will allow you to do some tuning between normal road driving and an autocross. Triple adjustable a are great but if you are not trying to be in the top 2% they are probably a bit much in terms of adjustability and cost. Again, here I use Ridetech. Their shocks are manufactured by Fox to RideTech specs and are a very high quality shock backed by a great company.
BtW...that is one beautiful car and when you finally do upgrade your suspension I know you will be driving it all the time. I am very familiar with that 60's floating car feel and how it makes you feel about driving it especially when you jump out of your daily driver.

[Buryingthesun]

I would say part of this conversation is driven by your budget. My car was all Ridetech until a month or so ago. It handled well and with their TruTurn set up I could run a 275 wide tire. One of the big issues for me was the stiffness, or lack of, in the stock front sub frame and the limitations that sub has when it comes to the geometry in the front end.
I do believe that you can't go wrong with either of those companies but I would encourage you to add up the cost of the parts and compare that to a complete front sub. Mine is engineered and built by No Limit and I could not be happier.
As for the shocks, it depends how serious you are going to get. I would at least get single adjustable. This will allow you to do some tuning between normal road driving and an autocross. Triple adjustable a are great but if you are not trying to be in the top 2% they are probably a bit much in terms of adjustability and cost. Again, here I use Ridetech. Their shocks are manufactured by Fox to RideTech specs and are a very high quality shock backed by a great company.
BtW...that is one beautiful car and when you finally do upgrade your suspension I know you will be driving it all the time. I am very familiar with that 60's floating car feel and how it makes you feel about driving it especially when you jump out of your daily driver.

I agree with everything you said, I pulled my set-up apart and hit the upgrade bug after just one season of driving my car with sub par upgraded suspension. The factory subframe limits a lot in the drivability department once you go lower and wider. I have since collected an assortment of Ridetech and Speedtech components that will suit my needs.

[salesguy01]

112560


So Here are my specs for this ride height above. This is with a completely stock 400 engine with a/c.

Front. Hotchkis 2" small block drop springs

Rear. 1.5" leaf spring drop Hotchkis

All the way around has the 1.5" Street performance Hotchkis Shocks.

The Rims are 17x8.

Front Tires are 225/45

Rear Tires are 275/40

Next I think this setup at minimum the Hotchkis UCA's
Hope this helps!

[JakeD]

Nice, thats a great stance. How does it perform? Cornering is absolute hell for me right now. Does it stiffen up the ride a lot? I sure hope so. I hate that a 275 tire is basically the biggest you can go with out modifying the rear and putting in mini tubs. Oh how I would love to run a 335 or something massive. One wheel burnouts with my open rear end aren't really cool anyways..

[JakeD]

Liking this suspension/wheel set up... Thats the ride height I am going for!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAwQolp8iVM

[bret]

IF you want to retain the oem front subframe, here are the items that I would take a close look at, in order of importance:

1. "Tall" dropped front spindle. The greatest suspension geometry sin these cars have [with an OEM or even a typical aftermarket dropped spindle] is that the overall spindle height is too short to create any camber gain on compression. In English, when you turn [and therefore compress one side of the front suspension] that compressed wheel leans AWAY from the turn...opposite of what you want to good handling. The RideTech "tall" dropped spindle is approx. 1.75" taller than oem [along with having a spindle pin that is raised approx. 2" to lower the car]. This works to lean the compressed tire INTO the turn [like guiding a bicycle around a corner]. This single change will do more to transform the handling of the car than any other single item. The RideTech spindle can be used by itself and will yield a great improvement, but the total Tru Turn package will give you the added benefits of optimizing the bumpsteer AND being able to fit a 275 tire up front. Will you be able to feel the difference of a full Tru Turn package driving down the highway? Probably not. Will you be able to tell the difference when pushing the car closer to its limits [like on an autocross] Absolutely. http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/

2. Shocks - shock technology has progressed in recent years by leaps and bounds. We use a monotube shock that has a piston area that is 2.5x the typical twin tube shock. The ride quality and handling difference is stunning. Ask around. http://www.ridetech.com/store/shocks/. These shocks are available as a coilover or as a stand alone unit for use with your oem control arms and leaf springs.

3. Steering box - unless you have upgraded, yours is worn out. a good 14:1 or 12.7:1 box will make that car feel like a new one. My experience with a retrofit rack and pinion system is that there is no feasible way to get that rack in the correct location in the oem chassis to create correct steering geometry. You would also need to determine if there are any compromises with turning radius and mounting bracket flex. [do not confuse my opinion of retrofit R&P kits with rack systems in general...they are GREAT if designed into the aftermarket chassis or subframe from the start]

4. Seats - I've done my time in those oem seats...they suck out loud. Find something that you can sit in, not on. Your butt will smile.

5. Springs - If you want to go with tubular control arms and coilovers [or ShockWaves], we can help by a lot http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-coilover-system-level-2.html
There are plenty of other resources for heights and spring rates for coilsprings for use with oem control arms.

6. Front swaybar - the OEM unit is nearly useless...ANY aftermarket bar will be an improvement.


The rest is subjective. There are lots of great aftermarket subframe systems out there if you choose that route...hard to go wrong there. We supply shocks to many of the best manufacturers... including TCI, SpeedTech, AND for the new No Limit system that will swallow a 315 front tire, so it is hard for me to truly recommend one over the other. But if you are on a budget, there are also lots of ways to see dramatic improvements with some simple changes. At some point, depending on your threshold of pain for research and funds, it may make sense to invest in a complete integrated suspension system so you can achieve the stance, ride quality and handling performance you really want, instead of trying to select the appropriate individual components. That also buys you experienced tech help on the other end of the phone to make sure you achieve your goals.

Nice car BTW...I applaud your efforts to make it drive as good as it looks!

[JakeD]

IF you want to retain the oem front subframe, here are the items that I would take a close look at, in order of importance:

1. "Tall" dropped front spindle. The greatest suspension geometry sin these cars have [with an OEM or even a typical aftermarket dropped spindle] is that the overall spindle height is too short to create any camber gain on compression. In English, when you turn [and therefore compress one side of the front suspension] that compressed wheel leans AWAY from the turn...opposite of what you want to good handling. The RideTech "tall" dropped spindle is approx. 1.75" taller than oem [along with having a spindle pin that is raised approx. 2" to lower the car]. This works to lean the compressed tire INTO the turn [like guiding a bicycle around a corner]. This single change will do more to transform the handling of the car than any other single item. The RideTech spindle can be used by itself and will yield a great improvement, but the total Tru Turn package will give you the added benefits of optimizing the bumpsteer AND being able to fit a 275 tire up front. Will you be able to feel the difference of a full Tru Turn package driving down the highway? Probably not. Will you be able to tell the difference when pushing the car closer to its limits [like on an autocross] Absolutely. http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/

2. Shocks - shock technology has progressed in recent years by leaps and bounds. We use a monotube shock that has a piston area that is 2.5x the typical twin tube shock. The ride quality and handling difference is stunning. Ask around. http://www.ridetech.com/store/shocks/. These shocks are available as a coilover or as a stand alone unit for use with your oem control arms and leaf springs.

3. Steering box - unless you have upgraded, yours is worn out. a good 14:1 or 12.7:1 box will make that car feel like a new one. My experience with a retrofit rack and pinion system is that there is no feasible way to get that rack in the correct location in the oem chassis to create correct steering geometry. You would also need to determine if there are any compromises with turning radius and mounting bracket flex. [do not confuse my opinion of retrofit R&P kits with rack systems in general...they are GREAT if designed into the aftermarket chassis or subframe from the start]

4. Seats - I've done my time in those oem seats...they suck out loud. Find something that you can sit in, not on. Your butt will smile.

5. Springs - If you want to go with tubular control arms and coilovers [or ShockWaves], we can help by a lot http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-coilover-system-level-2.html
There are plenty of other resources for heights and spring rates for coilsprings for use with oem control arms.

6. Front swaybar - the OEM unit is nearly useless...ANY aftermarket bar will be an improvement.


The rest is subjective. There are lots of great aftermarket subframe systems out there if you choose that route...hard to go wrong there. We supply shocks to many of the best manufacturers... including TCI, SpeedTech, AND for the new No Limit system that will swallow a 315 front tire, so it is hard for me to truly recommend one over the other. But if you are on a budget, there are also lots of ways to see dramatic improvements with some simple changes. At some point, depending on your threshold of pain for research and funds, it may make sense to invest in a complete integrated suspension system so you can achieve the stance, ride quality and handling performance you really want, instead of trying to select the appropriate individual components. That also buys you experienced tech help on the other end of the phone to make sure you achieve your goals.

Nice car BTW...I applaud your efforts to make it drive as good as it looks!


Hi Brett, so on the 48 hour camaro, are you still using the stock subframe?

I just had my car in the shop before ordering new suspension parts, and my mechanic recommended replacing the subframe itself before adding all these parts to it. What is everyones take on this?

Any recommendations as to subframe? Should i go for a complete set up or just replace with stock?

[Kcorrigan2]

Hi Brett, so on the 48 hour camaro, are you still using the stock subframe?

I just had my car in the shop before ordering new suspension parts, and my mechanic recommended replacing the subframe itself before adding all these parts to it. What is everyones take on this?

Any recommendations as to subframe? Should i go for a complete set up or just replace with stock?
I for one would recommend replacing the subframe if your budget can stand it. The stock subframe is very limited and once you start hacking it up to modify, stiffen and otherwise improve it you will likely spend the same amount of money on a complete new one. These full subframes are usually designed from scratch to provide much better geometry and rigity than the original one is capable of accomplishing. Rack and pinion steering, near zero bump steer, better control arm geometry, better adjustability and an overall increase in the satisfaction of driving are just a few of the items you will get with a new front sub.
I do agree with Brett, the bolt on stuff is leaps and bounds better than what the factory put on these cars. It is truly amazing when I get in a completely stock first gen and take it down the road just how "spooky" they are to drive...almost like floating down the road rather than driving but it was the the best they knew how to do back in the day. Thank god for pro-touring

[nokones]

I still remember very well back in the day when I had my 68. Although, autocrossing was essentially unknown in those days but, cruising/street racing was very popular, especially in Southern California. And when you did cruise, you had to look good, Suspension setup in those days was real simple. The front you put in a couple of spring spacers and install Gabriel adjustable (soft, medium, and firm) shocks. For wheels, the best were Cragar S/S with F70-14 Polyglass GT tires. For the rear, you use Gabriel Highjackers with Cragar S/S wheels and G60-15 Polyglass GT tires. The 400 would be punched out .030 with an Isky Cam, single Holley dual pumper/feed carb with Doug Headers and Cherry Bomb Glasspacks and chrome bell tips dumping behind the rear axle, Hays Clutch, Hurst Comp + Shifter, Chassis masters Lift Chassis bars, and of course the chrome air cleaner. As for listening to the tunes, you had a Vibersonic Reverb and listen to Wolfman Jack. Anybody wanna race?

[TheJDMan]

Don't worry about lowering springs. The first decision you need to make is if you keep the stock subframe or go with an aftermarket subframe.

[JakeD]

Don't worry about lowering springs. The first decision you need to make is if you keep the stock subframe or go with an aftermarket subframe.

But the question is which one. There are so many God damn choices I'm loosing my mind. The no limit engineering subframe looks pretty good. Or Detroit speed. Here's the thing, if you go with one brands subframe, do you have to go with their rear suspension aswell? I still like the RideTech rear suspension, but will it be compatible with a different manufacturers front? It's tricky.

[TheJDMan]

But the question is which one. There are so many God damn choices I'm loosing my mind. The no limit engineering subframe looks pretty good. Or Detroit speed. Here's the thing, if you go with one brands subframe, do you have to go with their rear suspension aswell? I still like the RideTech rear suspension, but will it be compatible with a different manufacturers front? It's tricky.

Yes there are tons of suspension choices and it can get very confusing. How hard core PT do you want to go? What is your budget? Do you plan to compete a lot or are you more interested in just improving your street car handling? Most of the vendors here on PT will spend time helping you put together a suspension plan just be aware they will also be trying to sell you parts they carry. Everyone you ask will have a different opinion of what suspension you should go with and to be honest, these days it would be hard to make a bad choice provided you stay with a name brand manufacturer. That said, I would warn you to stay away from any ebay suspension parts and do not buy parts based only on price. Those cheap no name ebay suspension parts will ultimately cost you more in the end.

The best advice I can give you is to spend as much time as possible reading as many threads as possible both here on PT.com and also Lateral-G.net. Look at the project updates to see what others are building. When I say spend time reading, I'm talking several months before you really begin to get any kind of feel for the options you have available these days.

As for the second part of your question, you do not need to go with the same manufacturer front and rear. For example, I have a DSE subframe with a Chassisworks G-link rear suspension and I am completely happy with the combination.

[Kcorrigan2]

But the question is which one. There are so many God damn choices I'm loosing my mind. The no limit engineering subframe looks pretty good. Or Detroit speed. Here's the thing, if you go with one brands subframe, do you have to go with their rear suspension aswell? I still like the RideTech rear suspension, but will it be compatible with a different manufacturers front? It's tricky.
I am running the No Limit Sniper front suspension and Ridetech rear. My car drives awesome on the highway, cruising the blvd, or tearing up the autocross in the pro division. It is the only front sub that will allow you to run a 315 wide tire if you so desire. It features completely modern geometry...I can tell you it is just plain awesome. The best part is the set-up I am running is the same set-up that you will get from them. They are all made equal. All you have to decide is what shock to run (RideTech) and what brakes. Brakes can be a costly part of these conversions. Speak with Rob at No Limit about the brakes. He can recommend the best bang for your buck and depending on what you have now you may be able the reuse them. Your headers are another consideration to talk about. Depending on which headers you have you may have to modify or change them out.
What I do suggest is to stick with one manufacturer for each end. It does not matter if the front and rear are they same but I have seen people who mix and match front end components and I believe that. Is a bad idea. The manufacturers like RideTech and No Limit but a lot of work and testing into their design and they would little help if you needed help on a mixed and matched setup. My suggestion would be to go with Ridetech if you want bolt on components in the front end and No Limit if you want to really put new modern geometry and steering in. They are both great quality manufacturers who will stand behind their product...and they are really great people as well. Come to an event and I will take you for a ride!

[130fe]

I have had the hotchkis TVS (2 inch drop), the Ridetech Air level 2 and now the Ridetech coil overs Level 2. As the others have said, you have to figure out what your budget is. I wanted to use a stock subframe and all of these fit that bill. The hotchkis stuff is at the lower end of budget range. It gave my car a good stance and ride quality was OK. Not bad mouthing Hotchkis, but moving to Ridetech was a big step up in ride quality (and budget). The first Ridetech setup was with their level 2 air setup (shockwaves). I drove with them for a couple of years and the ride quality was great. The only downside I saw with it was loosing trunk space. I just finished up the last "version" of my car and installed their single adjustable coil overs with the tru turn system. With the current setup, I absolutely love driving this car. Gaining back trunk space and less moving parts (no wiring harness, air lines, or airpod) were big pluses.

The most important thing I will say (what ever company you decide to go) is a companies Tech support. This is where Ridetech is one of the best in the industry. Whatever question I have had during installation or tuning the system, they were there at every stop. Last weekend while driving home, one of the front suspension parts broke. I called their tech on Monday morning and discussed my issue. I sent them pictures of what broken and was told that I would be getting a replacement part. They sent a replacement part and I had it by Wednesday. When I received the shipment, I thought the particular component box was small. Upon opening the box, I had been shipped the wrong part. I called them this morning and discussed it with Ryan (one of their tech guys) and that the wrong part was shipped. About 30 minutes later I received an email notification that the new part was being shipped to me overnight. They also emailed return label for the first shipment. That says a lot about them and trying to help their customers out. If you have the money for the coil over setup, I would go that way.

[JakeD]

Come to an event and I will take you for a ride!


Shoot I would love to! Unfortunately, I live up on Vancouver Island in Canada, and I don't think Good Guys Autocross comes up here...

[JakeD]

I have had the hotchkis TVS (2 inch drop), the Ridetech Air level 2 and now the Ridetech coil overs Level 2. As the others have said, you have to figure out what your budget is. I wanted to use a stock subframe and all of these fit that bill. The hotchkis stuff is at the lower end of budget range. It gave my car a good stance and ride quality was OK. Not bad mouthing Hotchkis, but moving to Ridetech was a big step up in ride quality (and budget). The first Ridetech setup was with their level 2 air setup (shockwaves). I drove with them for a couple of years and the ride quality was great. The only downside I saw with it was loosing trunk space. I just finished up the last "version" of my car and installed their single adjustable coil overs with the tru turn system. With the current setup, I absolutely love driving this car. Gaining back trunk space and less moving parts (no wiring harness, air lines, or airpod) were big pluses.

The most important thing I will say (what ever company you decide to go) is a companies Tech support. This is where Ridetech is one of the best in the industry. Whatever question I have had during installation or tuning the system, they were there at every stop. Last weekend while driving home, one of the front suspension parts broke. I called their tech on Monday morning and discussed my issue. I sent them pictures of what broken and was told that I would be getting a replacement part. They sent a replacement part and I had it by Wednesday. When I received the shipment, I thought the particular component box was small. Upon opening the box, I had been shipped the wrong part. I called them this morning and discussed it with Ryan (one of their tech guys) and that the wrong part was shipped. About 30 minutes later I received an email notification that the new part was being shipped to me overnight. They also emailed return label for the first shipment. That says a lot about them and trying to help their customers out. If you have the money for the coil over setup, I would go that way.

See I was honestly leaning towards the bolt in coil over level 2 kit because of the budget. I am planning on having this car for the rest of my life. However, I am 25 right now, so I don't know how involved I can get at this moment... I get it, do it right the first time. But I also want to enjoy the car right now and drive it. I feel like I'm being pulled both ways and don't know which way to commit.

How does your car drive with the modern suspension bolted on to the stock subframe? Also, just curious, what spring load should i be going for with a Pontiac 400 with iron heads? 600/650lbs?

I mean ****, do you just drop the 15k on parts and then tinker away knowing that when you are done the install, you are going to have one bitchin' ride? Its very tempting... But then I think of the minor details and feel like I won't have all the parts i need etc., etc.

[JakeD]

Sidenote --> I am currently running the stock GM 10 bolt (open rear end) with 3.08s i believe. This said, if you go the RideTech route, you weld on to the rear end. Now would you rather just put a new set of gears and a posi in the 10 bolt OR do you replace the whole damn thing. Again, this is probably a matter of budget. But it is the 8.5" 10 bolt, so it is pretty strong.. Gears and a posi would make this build easier on my wallet.

[Kcorrigan2]

Maybe I could help you with an interim step. I have a complete Ridetech air ride system, front suspension and tru-turn that I took off Velocity. The only thing you would need is the rear set-up. PM me if you are interested.

[JakeD]

So question, does the RideTech 4 link rear suspension for the 67-69 firebird/camaro need a pan hard bar? Was talking to my mechanic today and he was saying how it should have one. Been leaning the RideTech way for a long time but not I'm a little nervous. Doesn't say anything about it on the RideTech website. Is it a triangular 4 link?

[bret]

A couple of facts...

The 48 hr Camaro has the oem subframe under it with our True Turn system and a 275 tire. This past weekend it was in the top ten shootout (out of over 60 cars) at the Midwest Misclecar Challenge.

There are a large number of VERY well designed aftermarket frontends available. At least one will allow the use of a 315 front tire if you are so inclined.

The triangulated 4 link does NOT ise a panhard bar. The upper bars triangulate the lateral position of the rearend.

[Hotchkis]

Our system has been on the market for sometime now and we have spent a lot of time in the last couple of years really dialing it in. Our TVS for the 1st Gen platform is a fully balanced package that is easy enough to install that most DIY guys can pull the car in on Friday and be at the alignment shop Monday morning. Over the years we have balanced the spring roll and shock rates to produce a winning package that rides and drives confidently and comfortably but also has track winning performance. At this years One Lap of America Carls Camaro finished 1st in Vintage as well as 14th overall. That is 18 driving events and approximately 3,245 miles of transit driving over 7 days!

We have gone to great lengths to offer a tuned shock package as well for most applications. These shocks come in non-adjustable and Rebound only adjustable and really keep the car planted in the corners and riding smoothly down the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3q5RCsWwYw

If you think that your subframe may be compromised or you don't want to deal with the hassle of prepping your new one we sell a complete front subframe assembly, ready to go. If you have any questions please check out our site or give us a call!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/05/11218513_10153149792680073_1175675810143-1.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/HotchkisPerf/media/11218513_10153149792680073_117567581014347357_n_zp sa15jnigf.jpg.html)

[JakeD]

UPDATE:
I have ordered some parts. Full ride tech level 2 coil over set up with front swaybar and try turn system. I have also ordered the DSE mini tubs. Lastly, a pair of leather CR1 seats with brackets from Corbeau. Will post some photos as I progress.

Worth noting, ordering muscle car parts in Canada is bull*hit. Well, maybe not always, but with the Canadian dollar lacking because of oil prices etc., and the duty you pay coming over the boarder, it is depressing.

Anyways, Im stoked, can't wait for some parts to show up!

[Josh@Ridetech]

UPDATE:
I have ordered some parts. Full ride tech level 2 coil over set up with front swaybar and try turn system. I have also ordered the DSE mini tubs. Lastly, a pair of leather CR1 seats with brackets from Corbeau. Will post some photos as I progress.

Worth noting, ordering muscle car parts in Canada is bull*hit. Well, maybe not always, but with the Canadian dollar lacking because of oil prices etc., and the duty you pay coming over the boarder, it is depressing.

Anyways, Im stoked, can't wait for some parts to show up!

Let us know if you need anything! :)

[Pete68]

Im here to help. 18 inch wheels, Hotchkis suspension. 3 inch drop in rear, 2 inches in front. : )

114035

[Pete68]

A couple more angles

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