Opinions - Tuner keeping Car Overnight for joy ride

[427camaro]

Hey guys, I just wanted to get a few opinions on how you would feel if you were in my shoes or if you actually have been in a similar situation.

So I've spent the last 4 years of my free time building my 68 Camaro. I have, like most everyone on here, put my blood, sweat, sanity, money and risked my relationship with the old lady to get this car built. I didn't outsource anything except powdercoating, alignment, and tune. I did EVERYTHING and it is the first car I have ever built. Long story short I gave this car everything I had.

Most current pic I have.. She is 100% done now. I need to get better at taking more pics.
https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112454&stc=1

So I finally finished the car and went to get it tuned (LS2) and the tuner said I would have to leave it overnight which I figured was normal. Immediately he could tell I was nervous about leaving it overnight. He assured me it was fine and that they have high end cars in there all the time and they take extra care of them. I guess I was a little extra paranoid about someone beating on the car cause I had a valve spring fail with only 30 lightly driven miles on the car and I had just gotten the motor back together (which he knew because the incident caused me to miss the first appointment). I really didn't have that much of a problem with leaving it there, it was just hard keeping the thought of the car getting beat on and/or wrecked before I even really got to have fun with it out of my head. I wouldn't have the energy or livelihood to do a build like that again if it got wrecked. Back to it, when I dropped the car off I looked at the trip, 15 miles. When I picked it up the next day, 60 miles. So they drove the car 45 miles. The receipt has odometer in: 15MI, odometer out: 15MI. I didn't question them, car was outside and looked ok. So I get a call today from the guy and he asks if I have looked in the trunk. I said "no, why?", he said "well your gonna find a set of golf clubs back there. Mondays after work I go golfing and I took the car up there.". I again didn't get mad or question him and we are supposed to meet up tomorrow so he can get his clubs back. The more I think about it the more it irritates me. I have some obvious concerns of how the car was driven and can only speculate as to whether this was for pleasure or work.. Taking it for a test drive and maybe hoping on the freeway and coming back to the shop to test things out is expected. Not after hour drives to the golf course and home.

Would you guys be irritated? Would you confront him? Or am I over reacting? I feel like if he was upfront and told me when I picked the car up I wouldn't even be mad..

[cactuss4]

Holy crap.. "there are golf clubs there, we used your car to go gollfing", hahaha wtf.. I understand putting some mileage on the car for road testing (tune). but most don't have to do much driving at all, that's a **** load of miles for tuning purposes. I would be really upset, there is a serious breach of trust etc. I'm not sure I would let this go... Not sure what you can do but honestly this sounds like horse **** to me.. I'm mad just sitting here and it's not even my car!

Maybe I''m overreacting, while you are under reacting, let's find some middle ground, which doesn't feel like burning down the guys business down is the right answer.

[Barrrf]

Id bitch up a storm - but in the end, whats going to happen.

[rchaskin]

Time to find a new tuner.....

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I'd become unglued for sure! That is 100% unacceptable. 45 miles and golfing? I'd give the clubs back... for all the tuning costs. I don't like taking my done cars to the convenience store, and am peeking over out the window every 45 seconds to make sure it's okay.

There isn't a need for a tuner to keep it overnight. The local tuner I use schedules a few hours dyno time. You meet, he sets a baseline, drives it around the block a few times, tweaks it, etc, all while I'm there. Done in a few hours. I don't see how anyone else would be different. In this case, they saw an awesome car and wanted to milk the time they had to play with it.

[427camaro]

Holy crap.. "there are golf clubs there, we used your car to go gollfing", hahaha wtf.. I understand putting some mileage on the car for road testing (tune). but most don't have to do much driving at all, that's a **** load of miles for tuning purposes. I would be really upset, there is a serious breach of trust etc. I'm not sure I would let this go... Not sure what you can do but honestly this sounds like horse **** to me.. I'm mad just sitting here and it's not even my car!

Maybe I''m overreacting, while you are under reacting, let's find some middle ground, which doesn't feel like burning down the guys business down is the right answer.

That's how I feel, I've calmed down over the years (29 - still a young buck though) and learned to take a step back and think before I freak out. IMO this just is not professional.

[427camaro]

Time to find a new tuner.....

Yeah for sure. What bugs me even more is this was supposedly the best tuner in MN per LS1TECH.. If they are, what are the others like?

[parsonsj]

I'd keep the clubs. Totally unacceptable.

[shortrack]

I'd keep the clubs. Totally unacceptable.

X2....Unacceptable on SO many levels!!! Post the name of that shop so everyone can stay away. What an a sshole!

[427camaro]

On top of that. Who goes golfing late in the evening without stopping the cute drink-cart girl for a few beers..

[mc84_zz4]

I'd become unglued for sure! That is 100% unacceptable. 45 miles and golfing? I'd give the clubs back... for half the tuning costs.

^^ x2
This pisses me off and it's not my car either.
My thoughts: The tuner had an appointment to golf he wanted to keep, your tuning got in the way, he probably figured a way to combine them both, joyride a bitchin' car, and then finish it up in the AM, was running late again, and forgot the golf clubs.

I just hope the tuner is really that good, but he better give you another dyno run in a few months, etc, on HIS dime, I mean 45 miles?, really?
Hold the clubs as warranty, or until you are completely satisfied.

[JustJohn]

A tuner once cost me a $10k engine and I had very little recourse. In your case, you got off lucky nothing was broken. I'd walk away from the shop permanently.

[427camaro]

^^ x2
This pisses me off and it's not my car either.
My thoughts: The tuner had an appointment to golf he wanted to keep, your tuning got in the way, he probably figured a way to combine them both, joyride a bitchin' car, and then finish it up in the AM, was running late again, and forgot the golf clubs.

I just hope the tuner is really that good, but he better give you another dyno run in a few months, etc, on HIS dime, I mean 45 miles?, really?
Hold the clubs as warranty, or until you are completely satisfied.

I agree.. He doesn't have a dyno in his shop though and did the tune without one. He said he could bring the car to another shop he works with to get it dyno'd, but it would cost more. Don't know much about tuning, but I assume you would be able to get a better tune with the help of a dyno.. I want to give him the chance to make it right before I expose his shop, but at the same time I don't want anyone to go though the same thing and have something happen like JUSTJOHN for example. I am just pissed off. If he didn't call saying he left clubs in the trunk I would have never known unless something was wrong with the car.

[go-fish]

I would hacksaw the club heads off the clubs and stick them back in the bag. That's just me and probably a reason my wife thinks I'm an a**hole. You should at least leverage the clubs for some free dyno time. Don't give them back until he comes through on the dyno.

[LS7 Z/28]

I'm hoping you post the name of the shop so I can tell everyone and anyone to avoid that guy. I'm from Minnesota also. If it was me I'd be furious dude. I'm not sure how you didn't tell him what a d-bag he is when he told you his golf clubs were in your trunk. I would have lost my mind. In what world would he think that was an OK thing to do?

I know you said he is supposedly the best tuner in MN based off LS1 tech, but I would never trust a guy who doesn't even have a dyno. Going to a street tuner is asking for trouble man.

Glad your car is in one piece though.

[TheJDMan]

I understand that part of the engine tuning process is drivability and to test that you have to drive the vehicle under differing conditions which probably cannot be done in a shop on a dyno. 45 miles seems like a lot but I have a 15 mile test loop that I drive when testing my car. It would not be unheard of to make multiple test drives in the process of dialing in a tune. On the other hand the golf clubs have me confused not knowing why they were needed to tune the car.

[71maroesteban]

I'd take a gold club to his head!!!!!!!!

[MuscleRodz]

The 45 miles doesn't bother me as much as the clubs and knowing the car was used outside business requirements. Its unethical and would never go back. I routinely drive customer cars if it is necessary to determine I have fixed a problem, but I never let any of my employees drive a customer car. Tell him you parked the car outside last night and someone stole the clubs out of the trunk.

[Build-It-Break-It]

I had a shop do the same thing to me but worse. They worked on my car then beat on it. They didn't expect me to drive up early and when I did they were trying to plug a breather because it had extreme blow by. I made them build me another motor and install it or take them to court.

I'd give him a piece of my mind. Make him give me a FULL refund then return his clubs or keep them if the matter isn't resolved. I wouldn't accept ANY shop driving ANY of my cars anywhere PERIOD. You dropped it off for a service not a free joy ride and golfing.

[240g]

That tune should at least be free or you have a new set of clubs. Totally unacceptable.

[minendrews68]

I'd have to say "Let me look,...nope, no clubs here!" Yeah really pi$$es me off too. Talk about taking advantage of, besides he probably stopped off somewhere telling everyone how he just finished his car and taking it for a test drive. to me, totally uncalled for. What if he had torn something up, bet he wouldn't know what happened! ok i'll shut up now

[Red67Mustang]

At a minimum... take his clubs golfing for a few rounds before giving them back!! :)

[cactuss4]

At a minimum... take his clubs golfing for a few rounds before giving them back!! :)

Use Rocks as the golf ball.

[68Formula]

At a minimum... take his clubs golfing for a few rounds before giving them back!! :)

Best answer yet! Then tell him how nice his driver felt on the course, and watch his reaction.

[SSLance]

I'd feel the guy out in person first I guess. I know a couple of tuners and they all drive the cars they tune around after to make sure the changes they made worked. It's almost always part of the deal. If there was no other sigh of "abuse"...I don't think I'd have a large problem with it, but it would depend on how the guy acts. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt though.

Remember though, if you go in with guns a blazin, he's likely to act differently than if you go in with just a simple concern and you give him a chance to explain.

[BonzoHansen]

I'd keep the clubs. Totally unacceptable.

That was my first thought too. That is completely unprofessional.

[FlyDoc]

after reading everyone's comments, I like the idea of cutting the heads off the clubs, but I would also **** in the bag, but better yet I would take each club and carefully bend each club to Fu@(k up his game, that would be silent satisfaction to know that his game is gone to hell and he will be trying to figure out whats up.

but I would also question the miles, and why the clubs are in the trunk? evaluate his answer, not pay him, and then give him the bent clubs.

[MrQuick]

I have to ask....is your speedometer/odometer calibrated?

Let him know you are not happy and ask for a refund.

[427camaro]

I have to ask....is your speedometer/odometer calibrated?

Let him know you are not happy and ask for a refund.

Speedometer has been calibrated and is dead on.

[68Formula]

I'd feel the guy out in person first I guess. I know a couple of tuners and they all drive the cars they tune around after to make sure the changes they made worked. It's almost always part of the deal. If there was no other sigh of "abuse"...I don't think I'd have a large problem with it, but it would depend on how the guy acts. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt though.

Agree, that they may want to put more shakedown miles on it depending on what exactly they're doing to the car. But if they think that's going to be more than a short trip, then they should be up front with the customer. And they should be honest on the paperwork as well.

[SSLance]

Again, just being devils advocate here as I don't really know the situation personally... The title of the thread indicates the shop\tuner took the car for a "Joy Ride". Is there any proof there was any "Joy" involved in said ride?

I'm assuming the shop\tuner has a garage insurance policy that covers the shop\tuner in the event that anything happens to the car while in his possession. The car owner left the car in the shop\tuner's possession knowing full well it was going to be in the shop\tuner's possession overnight and I'm assuming the owner knew the shop\tuner was going to test drive the car while tuning it.

Unless there is any sign of damage done to the car during the test drive (wherever that might have been) I'm kind of having a hard time finding a problem here. Good shops\tuners are kind of hard to come by, I'm not sure I'd jeopardize my relationship with a shop\tuner over an assumption of "joy" like this without any proof it actually happened.

Jus sayin'... there very well may have been Joy involved in the test run and I don't know this, but either way...the shop should be responsible for any damage done while in its\his possession.

[dhutton]

Check the rear wheel tubs for rubber. Good indicator of abuse and I doubt he would clean it up.

Don

[427camaro]

I'd feel the guy out in person first I guess. I know a couple of tuners and they all drive the cars they tune around after to make sure the changes they made worked. It's almost always part of the deal. If there was no other sigh of "abuse"...I don't think I'd have a large problem with it, but it would depend on how the guy acts. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt though.

Remember though, if you go in with guns a blazin, he's likely to act differently than if you go in with just a simple concern and you give him a chance to explain.

I almost always try and give people the benefit of the doubt. I would rather find a solution than just blow up on the guy. 5 years ago I would have snapped the second he said he took the car golfing, but I've learned to take that step back and evaluate. Everything in life usually ends better, for me at least. At the same time I will snap if I think someone is trying to take advantage of me being discerning and nice. The old "don't mistake kindness for weakness".

I am going to confront him today. What make me even more disappointed is he is the owner. I don't own a company, but I manage a team of sales guys and I would never do something I would not want them doing. Lead by example, and in this case all the shop guys see him taking cars out for joy rides. That will rub off on the guys. I can only imagine he get's first pick, they get second.

I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks everyone for your input.

[427camaro]

Again, just being devils advocate here as I don't really know the situation personally... The title of the thread indicates the shop\tuner took the car for a "Joy Ride". Is there any proof there was any "Joy" involved in said ride?

I'm assuming the shop\tuner has a garage insurance policy that covers the shop\tuner in the event that anything happens to the car while in his possession. The car owner left the car in the shop\tuner's possession knowing full well it was going to be in the shop\tuner's possession overnight and I'm assuming the owner knew the shop\tuner was going to test drive the car while tuning it.

Unless there is any sign of damage done to the car during the test drive (wherever that might have been) I'm kind of having a hard time finding a problem here. Good shops\tuners are kind of hard to come by, I'm not sure I'd jeopardize my relationship with a shop\tuner over an assumption of "joy" like this without any proof it actually happened.

Jus sayin'... there very well may have been Joy involved in the test run and I don't know this, but either way...the shop should be responsible for any damage done while in its\his possession.

He took the car golfing after work hours..

I did not mention this because I didn't want it to seem like I was blaming him and was going to start a new thread for this, but that day I got the car back home I went to go bleed the front brakes again because the pedal seemed a little soft still. I pulled the front drivers side wheel off and there were bad gouges in the inner side of the wheel were the upper control arm had rubbed against the wheel. I noticed that the castle nut sheared the cotter pin and I was able to unscrew by hand! With it being almost unscrewed the control arm had raised and was hitting that wheel when turned all the way to the right. Brand new forgeline wheel trashed. I don't know how this could have happened..? Any ideas? I torqued everything to spec and wrote it all down when I assembled the front end like I do when I torque a motor back together so I know nothing got overlooked. I am not saying he did anything to cause this, but can you imagine if this failed during the 45 miles he drove. I assume it happened either during my way home or while he was driving. I'll post a pic of the carnage

[427camaro]

I live on a very long dirt road with a dirt driveway so don't mind the filth.

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112492&stc=1https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=112493&stc=1

[cornfedbill]

Absolutely wrong! I would be tempted to hold the golf clubs hostage.

I would ask for a refund equal to the rental value of your car, and never go back to him again.

Very bad form.

[Bigblue73]

Take a six pack of Lienenkugels over to the shop and pop a beer with him and tell him he "f**ked up". Driving your car to debug or improve the driving ability is one thing, but taking the car to a golf course. He messed up big time. What if the car was hit a golf ball (I'm a hack so I can relate)? Then leaving his clubs to slide around in your trunk.

The internet is a big billboard in which the "word" can make or break your business really quick. Let him make the next call.

Personally - You are being to nice about this.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

Personally - You are being to nice about this.

My sentiments exactly.

As far as not seeing anything wrong stated above, you don't have to have a quarter panel covered in rubber to do damage to the car. I certainly wouldn't trust a shop full of rubber in front... I don't needlessly flog my car, and I expect that of anyone working on my car. All I picture are the Ass Monkey guys acting like idiots trying to blow something up. As far as not being a "joyride", golf clubs... that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I would never leave my car in a golf course parking lot for 2 hours out of my sight, for a shop owner to do the same is totally reckless and irresponsible. I don't think he's losing a "good tuner". A good tune is done on a dyno, with A/F monitoring. The idea of someone doing WOT passes on the street in my car scares me as well. My tuner never puts more than 5 miles on any cars he does, and he's one of the best in the Southwest. 45 miles doesn't accomplish anything tuning wise... there's no tuning needed for low load cruising around the town, showing off.

Maybe it's the old Italian guys I know that left their previous life in New York and their stories that make me more of a hard ass over that, haha. But then again, I wouldn't recommend some of their tactics....

[Sean Cooke]

I had a shop do the same thing to me but worse. They worked on my car then beat on it. They didn't expect me to drive up early and when I did they were trying to plug a breather because it had extreme blow by. I made them build me another motor and install it or take them to court.

I'd give him a piece of my mind. Make him give me a FULL refund then return his clubs or keep them if the matter isn't resolved. I wouldn't accept ANY shop driving ANY of my cars anywhere PERIOD. You dropped it off for a service not a free joy ride and golfing.

Most shops don't even want the liability of driving a customers car. I had a rear end shop tell me they couldn't finish my truck before the end of the day. Only to get a call at 2am from Whittier PD asking if I was the owner of a red pickup And knew the name of some kid driving it. Come to find out after the shop closed one of the employees decided my bagged supercharged truck would be perfect to cruise down Whittier blvd until the rear end grenades from no oil. Then the kid gets taken to jail for having RX drugs that arnt in his name. Sometimes **** happens, sound like you and the shop guy have a good relationship. I would let him know you weren't very cool with the Idea of him driving your car around for golfing but sounds like it came back in one piece, even tuned lol

[Barrrf]

Unfortunately, youre right. You dont know if that damage happened during his drive or yours. So you cant pin that on him. Thats really a bummer - I can imagine the feeling you had when you first saw the damage. Sinking "why do I even do this" type of feeling.

On another note: Ive been looking for a nice new set of clubs...........

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

On another note: Ive been looking for a nice new set of clubs...........

On that note: probably good to post pics of the clubs... might be able to pay for a real tuner if they're nice enough!

[WallaceMFG]

I'm in the boat with the other people that he had no reason to drive your car that far without telling you. As with most people, nobody but family and close friends gets to drive my cars. The only people I've had drive one of my cars was a shop that was putting a prototype serpentine kit on my Torino, and they told us up front that they would like to put around 10 miles on the car just to make sure it wouldn't throw a belt or something, but they said they would understand if they didn't want someone else driving our car. They had already treated our car with great respect while it was at their shop, so we were ok with them driving it a little.

As for the ruined wheel, I would have a serious talk with him about replacing it because that's not a cheap fix. If you were driving the car and parts fall apart, then it's on you. But, he had been driving without you knowing, and if something happened your car could have been seriously damaged. I've had a ball joint come apart on me while driving before, it's not a fun experience.

I'd hold the clubs ransom until you can work out a deal with him. Go to small claims court if you feel the need to, and I personally wouldn't go back again.

[427camaro]

I almost feel like he needs to see this thread. I have not exposed his shop, but maybe it will be a eye opener for him and he'll think twice before doing it with another customers car.

[killer69]

A tuner once cost me a $10k engine and I had very little recourse. In your case, you got off lucky nothing was broken. I'd walk away from the shop permanently.

Ha Ha only ONE. we used a guy (back in Canada) cost a customer 2 engines!! and could care less.. his response was "you signed the waver" yea true but your guy held the gas at WOT as the smoke was coming out of the breathers!!! until it seized! WTF.
keep the Clubs and or get your money back.
I can see a tuner needing to drive the car 15-25 miles maybe even a couple trips if he is really working it out or if the tune is way off, but is shouldn't be if he has a Dyno. but the difference between dyno tuning and "Sterrt drivability is huge.

[BMR Sales]

I'd keep the clubs. Totally unacceptable.

X5. Maybe throw one through the Window of his Shop!

[groho]

As a golfer, you need to do to him as he has done to you. . . .take his clubs out and practice your golf swing. . .on a 40lb bag of landscaping rocks from Homedepot, teeing off the grass follows adequate, but hitting off the concrete sidewalk is more effective. Look at him and say "I hope you enjoyed the ride", hand him his clubs (hopefully they have covers), and never come back. Cleaning the clubs after use would be a polite gesture of thanks.

[vintageracer]

My answer would have been:

"What golf clubs in the trunk?"

"I just finished doing additional trim work in the trunk and there were no golf clubs in the trunk. Besides WHY WOULD YOU CALL ME ABOUT THERE BE A SET OF GOLF CLUBS IN MY TRUNK?"

With any luck at all you might have had yourself a Hell of nice set of new clubs!!!!

Look at the bright side.

At least he was not calling you to get back one of his "Sexual Toys" he left in the trunk!

[Craig510]

How far is the guys house from the shop. He could have simply driven the car home so he could get a few miles on it and start it cold in the morning. A couple quick holes on the way to work would explain the clubs.

How does the car drive? Any rubber in the wheel wells from burn outs? You want a car that you can drive anywhere without issue so a nice long road test is in order. I would be glad you got the car back in one piece and if you got a good tune then all is well. If the tune is poor and they drove that far then you need to find a new guy.

[Justin@EntropyRad]

Bummer of a situation indeed!

I'd be apprehensive about someone who solely does street tunes on any car, regardless of how simple LSx motors are to get right.

The fact that he drove it for personal business, is just plain unacceptable, and he/you would have certainly heard that grinding noise for the wheel to control arm contact.

I had a painter do this to me on an old car...someone pulled a hit and run on the whole driver's side of my old Lexus. Took it to a guy I had been using for years. This time he wanted to do it on the side, which I was cool with since he had a friend's car at his shop already. My 3-day paint work ended up taking 2+ weeks, and when I got the car back there were two cig burns in the center console, no gas in it, and receipts in my cup holders. Basically, he had blown up his truck, and was using my car. Needless to say, he didn't get the second half of my money, nor my buddies for the detail/ozone/leather repair of my car.

Hope your tuner makes it right by you

[DenRS]

Wow, I would straight up ask him why would golf clubs be in the trunk. My car was not suppose to leave the shop. Then tell him, I'll keep you posted on if I find them in the trunk.

What type of golf clubs are we talking about here? A set of Callaway's, Taylor Made's etc or a 30 year old set of junk. You could easily sell a brand new set of Callaways for what that rim cost.

[427camaro]

Wow, I would straight up ask him why would golf clubs be in the trunk. My car was not suppose to leave the shop. Then tell him, I'll keep you posted on if I find them in the trunk.

What type of golf clubs are we talking about here? A set of Callaway's, Taylor Made's etc or a 30 year old set of junk. You could easily sell a brand new set of Callaways for what that rim cost.

Haven't even looked in the trunk yet. I emailed him to make sure I got all my points across. I left it on him to decide how to handle it or make it right so to speak and told him to call me. I included a link to this thread in the email.

[b17brian]

Are you completely satisfied with the tune? Besides the wheel damage, which you aren't sure was caused by them or you, was anything else damaged? If you didn't know about the golf clubs do you feel you were wronged?

Golf clubs in the trunk prove he used your car for something that you didn't agree to. I would seek legal advice from a lawyer.

First I would see if he would admit that he used your car for personal use. Then ask him if that was ethical and demand an apology. I would expect a refund of everything you paid him (the price of using your car without your permission). Depending on if he refunded you and whether he was remorseful, I would post his name here.

If he didn't make it right, I would check with law enforcement to make sure I didn't get myself in trouble, then I would wrap all his clubs around a tree before I returned them to him.

[mean buzzen half dozen]

I would be really, really pissed off!
That is unacceptable in my book.

Sort of reminds me when I built my friends Camaro engine, took it to a place to get an exhaust system on it & dropped it off.
They said it would take a few hrs. to install. So we went back home waiting for the shop to call us when the exhaust was done.

When we went to pick up the car, there was 200+ feet of rubber marks leaving the exhaust shop driveway that was not there before we had been there.

We spoke to the tech that installed the exhaust & he had asked us, did you know this car has a POSI?
Not my car, but if it was, I would have let him have it.

[01midmetws6]

Hello all, I am Carl Thomas, the tuner of Nick's Camaro. I just wanted to take a second to defend myself before everyone comes to my business with pitchforks and torches. I just spoke with Nick and he made me aware of his concerns. This entire situation really comes down to a lack of information about the process that is used when tuning. I own an auto repair shop in St Paul MN called Lancer Service and tune roughly 4-6 cars/week. I work long hours with the shop and regularly drive customers cars home to perform street tuning. During the day I install the equipment that is needed perform an initial test drive to make sure everything looks, check all fluids, clean maf sensors, etc and prepare it to drive home in the evening.

I took Nick's car from work at 4:30 (left early to get a jump start on it) and started working on the virtual VE table. I golf on a 9 hole golf league at Oak Marsh (about 5 miles from work) every Monday at 5:30 and drove the car there while data logging to make adjustments. I parked it in the financial lot across the street, to allow time to run it and restart after sitting. I finished golf at 7:00 and worked on the tune until 10:45 when I locked the car in my home security protected garage. The next morning I drove it to work about 7 more miles of data logging. After everything looked good and I was happy with the results I pulled my WB, called the customer, went over a list of items I would look into to prevent future damage and help performance. This is not an issue of quality, he is very happy with the way the car runs. I apologized for the miscommunication, I have always and will continue to drive customers cars home as it allows me to provide a better product at a lower cost to the customer.

Now some of you may not take the time to read this but it is important to me as I value customer satisfaction above all and want to make sure every customer that leaves is not just satisfied but feels the product that leaves is perfect:
1. The word JOYRIDE is a complete misuse, because I put miles on the car to tune a VE table (which nearly no tuners do) doesn't mean I am not working on the car continually. I do not do burnouts, race or in any way abuse customer cars. I do drive them at WOT and make those pulls in 2nd or 3rd gear to the limiter, push in the clutch and reflash. If anything were to happen to a car in my possession I would take care of it, no questions asked. Including your rim, if you feel it was my negligence we can discuss options.
2. The burnout marks are from a BW s476 powered 71 C10 that is owned by a guy from IA (I can post video if interested)
3. I golf, it is a good way to get together with my cousin and finance, I apologize for any inconvenience to get my clubs back
4. I did not hear any grinding other than the rubbing you informed me on during low speed near lock turning.
5. With our point of sale system when you start a work order and fill the mileage it auto fills the mileage out. To have technicians consistently tracking mileage out and properly documenting it would require more work than what it is worth. We have done it the same way with ever car (usually around 17/day) for over 30 years, I am not trying to hide anything, I do drive customer cars and take the utmost of car of them. If the car was not flat/matte I most likely would have washed it before you got it back to make sure it is cleaner than when it arrived.

If there are any issues please feel free to ask. I am an straight shooter that works my ass off to make sure everyone is happy. This is an unfortunate situation where I assumed you knew I would be driving the car outside of the normal 7:00-5:00 business hours. I apologize for misspeaking and stating the car would stay inside the shop when the car was dropped off. I would have much rather discussed this one on one and look forward to the opportunity to make sure you are satisfied!

[A.I.I.]

Since Carl has responded my only ? is did the owner of the car know you were taking the car home over night?

[grendel]

Hello all, I am Carl Thomas, the tuner of Nick's Camaro. I just wanted to take a second to defend myself before everyone comes to my business with pitchforks and torches. I just spoke with Nick and he made me aware of his concerns. This entire situation really comes down to a lack of information about the process that is used when tuning. I own an auto repair shop in St Paul MN called Lancer Service and tune roughly 4-6 cars/week. I work long hours with the shop and regularly drive customers cars home to perform street tuning. During the day I install the equipment that is needed perform an initial test drive to make sure everything looks, check all fluids, clean maf sensors, etc and prepare it to drive home in the evening.

I took Nick's car from work at 4:30 (left early to get a jump start on it) and started working on the virtual VE table. I golf on a 9 hole golf league at Oak Marsh (about 5 miles from work) every Monday at 5:30 and drove the car there while data logging to make adjustments. I parked it in the financial lot across the street, to allow time to run it and restart after sitting. I finished golf at 7:00 and worked on the tune until 10:45 when I locked the car in my home security protected garage. The next morning I drove it to work about 7 more miles of data logging. After everything looked good and I was happy with the results I pulled my WB, called the customer, went over a list of items I would look into to prevent future damage and help performance. This is not an issue of quality, he is very happy with the way the car runs. I apologized for the miscommunication, I have always and will continue to drive customers cars home as it allows me to provide a better product at a lower cost to the customer.

Now some of you may not take the time to read this but it is important to me as I value customer satisfaction above all and want to make sure every customer that leaves is not just satisfied but feels the product that leaves is perfect:
1. The word JOYRIDE is a complete misuse, because I put miles on the car to tune a VE table (which nearly no tuners do) doesn't mean I am not working on the car continually. I do not do burnouts, race or in any way abuse customer cars. I do drive them at WOT and make those pulls in 2nd or 3rd gear to the limiter, push in the clutch and reflash. If anything were to happen to a car in my possession I would take care of it, no questions asked. Including your rim, if you feel it was my negligence we can discuss options.
2. The burnout marks are from a BW s476 powered 71 C10 that is owned by a guy from IA (I can post video if interested)
3. I golf, it is a good way to get together with my cousin and finance, I apologize for any inconvenience to get my clubs back
4. I did not hear any grinding other than the rubbing you informed me on during low speed near lock turning.
5. With our point of sale system when you start a work order and fill the mileage it auto fills the mileage out. To have technicians consistently tracking mileage out and properly documenting it would require more work than what it is worth. We have done it the same way with ever car (usually around 17/day) for over 30 years, I am not trying to hide anything, I do drive customer cars and take the utmost of car of them. If the car was not flat/matte I most likely would have washed it before you got it back to make sure it is cleaner than when it arrived.

If there are any issues please feel free to ask. I am an straight shooter that works my ass off to make sure everyone is happy. This is an unfortunate situation where I assumed you knew I would be driving the car outside of the normal 7:00-5:00 business hours. I apologize for misspeaking and stating the car would stay inside the shop when the car was dropped off. I would have much rather discussed this one on one and look forward to the opportunity to make sure you are satisfied!


From my perspective, the golfing was a bit much. I am bringing my truck to a tuner. I know he will drive it. I also trust that he will keep it under his control at all times.

Good on you for bringing it out though. I'd use you, with the agreement that it's in your hands or under lock and key.

[SSLance]

I guess it is because I own and run several businesses and know how hard I work everyday...that makes me completely understand Carl's explanation and have zero problem with the golf clubs in the trunk of Nick's car. Who else here posting in this thread continues to do their work on their way home, while at home...and on their way into work the next day? Every day...

Thanks for posting your side Carl, hopefully you and Nick can put this behind you amicably.

[gotyorgoat]

Who was responsible for the car while it was parked in the golf course lot? It should have been kept in the shop where your customer left it in your care. It really is the worst nightmare for any car owner who is forced to leave their car overnight. Totally unacceptable. I would give the clubs back so as not to complicate the situation and then tell your story on every possible website and never go there again.

[68Formula]

Sounds like a discrepency on the mileage. In any case, owner should be told up front, and paperwork should show actual in/out mileage.

[01midmetws6]

Since Carl has responded my only ? is did the owner of the car know you were taking the car home over night?

I assumed that he did and after talking to him he was under the impression that it he was not aware. That is what I apologized for and going forward it is something that will be crystal clear with all customers.


From my perspective, the golfing was a bit much. I am bringing my truck to a tuner. I know he will drive it. I also trust that he will keep it under his control at all times.

I understand your thoughts with that and everyone has there comfort level. In the summer I rarely drive my own cars, every time I run during the day or drive somewhere in the evening it is usually in a customers car. Some are for intermittent electrical/drive ability issues and they need to be driven with equipment for many, many miles before acting up. With that being said I do not have issues with misuse or improper treatment of vehicles and if ever there was an issue it would be rectified ASAP.

Good on you for bringing it out though. I'd use you, with the agreement that it's in your hands or under lock and key.


I guess it is because I own and run several businesses and know how hard I work everyday...that makes me completely understand Carl's explanation and have zero problem with the golf clubs in the trunk of Nick's car. Who else here posting in this thread continues to do their work on their way home, while at home...and on their way into work the next day? Every day...

Thanks for posting your side Carl, hopefully you and Nick can put this behind you amicably.

Thank you for being open minded, this time of year I am working an easy 60 hours a week and when you are backed up a month in tuning you have to make decisions like this to keep customers satisfied. Believe me when I say I would MUCH RATHER be doing this work during the day but time does not always allow.


Who was responsible for the car while it was parked in the golf course lot? It should have been kept in the shop where your customer left it in your care. It really is the worst nightmare for any car owner who is forced to leave their car overnight. Totally unacceptable. I would give the clubs back so as not to complicate the situation and then tell your story on every possible website and never go there again.

I am responsible for the car from the moment the vehicle was dropped off until the minute it leaves our lot. I understand it is challenging to leave your pride and joy with someone and try to make it as painless as possible which is why I had the car back a day earlier than we anticipated. Really don't understand the animosity with the final comment. I don't think a lot of people understand how quickly a mislabeled or misleading thread like this can damage something that someone has worked thousands of hours to build. I didn't state all the facts of this and will not get defensive. If something would have happened to the car while it was in my control it would have been taken care of, if Nick is dissatisfied I will make it right, it is that simple.

[01midmetws6]

Sounds like a discrepency on the mileage. In any case, owner should be told up front, and paperwork should show actual in/out mileage.

It is standard operating procedures to use just odometer in, that is VERY common practice by most repair shops in the state. Most that do use ODO out just document it as 1 mile over because there POS will not allow the same mileage.

Owner was informed up front that the vehicle was to be driven, I was not clear that it was going to be overnight. I am accepting of that and apologized for it. Different cars setup takes more or less time, on custom builds like this I often run into and repair many problems during the tuning service that take additional time and mileage to remedy. It is very challenging to estimate a mileage driven up front.

[TheJDMan]

Send that wheel back to Forgeline and they will replace the inner hoop.

[cactuss4]

As I have no dog in this fight, other than to be the first one to raise his hackles. I think the owner of the shop coming on, giving his name, and his shop name and explaining the situation speaks volumes, if he was trying to hide, all that information would not have been volunteered.

I do understand the need for more hours in the day, but honestly taking a customers car golfing and leaving it outside out of your control. I know you say you would make it right, but honestly your shop insurance would in most cases not cover it, and then you would be asking the customer to have his insurance cover it and you would make it right some way. I don't see a shop absorbing the cost if something major happened, some of these cars have over $100K+ in them, if that car walked, most shops would have to fold.

Just don't think you can be certain something won't happen and at least if it's under your immediate control and or on your property you can absorb thanks to insurance, but parked in a 3rd parties lot, while you are away from it for 2 hours (ack, so many things could happen that could cause a hard ship for you and the customer).

Bottom line I hope Nick is happy, I hope you guys fix this and he can use your services in the future.

i take back my comment about taking your clubs out for a test run using rocks :)

Tory

[DenRS]

Thanks for coming on to give your side of the story. It may be wise to come up with a document describing how you tune or what is involved. Explain that it is necessary to drive the car, make full throttle blast in 2nd etc. I would make them sign it as part of the repair order.

If it's late and you will be doing the work after hours explain to the customer that you will take the car home. You might lose a customer or two but you gain the trust of the rest of them by being up front and completely honest. The only downside is that I don't think most people will let you take their car golfing lol.

[01midmetws6]

As I have no dog in this fight, other than to be the first one to raise his hackles. I think the owner of the shop coming on, giving his name, and his shop name and explaining the situation speaks volumes, if he was trying to hide, all that information would not have been volunteered.

I do understand the need for more hours in the day, but honestly taking a customers car golfing and leaving it outside out of your control. I know you say you would make it right, but honestly your shop insurance would in most cases not cover it, and then you would be asking the customer to have his insurance cover it and you would make it right some way. I don't see a shop absorbing the cost if something major happened, some of these cars have over $100K+ in them, if that car walked, most shops would have to fold.

Just don't think you can be certain something won't happen and at least if it's under your immediate control and or on your property you can absorb thanks to insurance, but parked in a 3rd parties lot, while you are away from it for 2 hours (ack, so many things could happen that could cause a hard ship for you and the customer).

Bottom line I hope Nick is happy, I hope you guys fix this and he can use your services in the future.

i take back my comment about taking your clubs out for a test run using rocks :)

Tory

Tory, I understand the comment and this is something that I have discussed in detail with our insurance company. Due to the fact that I drive a lot of irreplaceable cars and the nature of my work is operation outside of a controlled environment we carry an insanely comprehensive insurance policy. To sum it up I could literally drive, ride or fly anything and be covered up to $1.5m. Additionally, no quality business exists without working capital (which we have) to take care of an issue if it were to arise without need to involve an insurance company.

Thanks for taking back the rock comments, hopefully all my old used Wilson Staff clubs are still relatively straight when I get them back.


Thanks for coming on to give your side of the story. It may be wise to come up with a document describing how you tune or what is involved. Explain that it is necessary to drive the car, make full throttle blast in 2nd etc. I would make them sign it as part of the repair order.

If it's late and you will be doing the work after hours explain to the customer that you will take the car home. You might lose a customer or two but you gain the trust of the rest of them by being up front and completely honest. The only downside is that I don't think most people will let you take their car golfing lol.

Here is what is on our work orders, it outlines that the vehicle will be operated to the extent of its mechanical limitations. I am usually very detailed with customers on how the process is done. Again I assumed that Nick had an understanding of how I operate and that is my responsibility. I just checked this morning and as of today I have tuned 384 cars over a 4 year period, this is the first time something like this has been brought up. I will make sure from a legality standpoint to have more info above the signature on how the vehicle is to be operated.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/05/b8b383f39c43473285f9e0fc725f4d33_zpsctsc-1.jpg (http://s257.photobucket.com/user/01midmetws6/media/b8b383f3-9c43-4732-85f9-e0fc725f4d33_zpsctscr736.jpg.html)

I think the line between right and wrong is very tough to define. This week I had a customer ask to weld an aluminum bung into a charge pipe on his TT viper I am tuning. I transported that pipe in the back of a 13 CTS-V to the dyno. After dynoing the car it sat outside for 3-4 hours in a parking lot that is not under my control while I tuned two other vehicles. If I leave that charge pipe in a car that was driven a further distance than Nicks are we having this discussion.

It is obvious I would not want to have something happen to the car while it is in my control and any risk I take is at my expense. I have to manage that risk in a way that allows the best outcome with the least exposure.

[Red67Mustang]

That the shop owner comes here to explain himself is a good sign of a responsible business. Add to that the insurance protection, etc... All seems above board.

However, I do not yet have the impression that the gentleman understands the reason so many in this community react this strongly to something like this is NOT just about the money.

He referenced the concern he feels about a thread like this destroying a reputation he's spent thousands of hours building.... That sort of concern is what needs to enter his mind when he's taking risks with a project car that others have sacrificed for, and spent their blood, sweat, tears and thousands of hours building. It's right to think of these cars as irreplaceable and sentimental.

Speaking for myself - I've put more of my time, treasure and passion into my car than I care to admit. I could not put a monetary sum on the value of my car (and the experiences / memories it represents to me...). It's not about the money.

I'd suggest it's more appropriate to think of these cars as their customer's children (or if that's too extreme - a beloved family pet), left in their care - versus simply being expensive possessions.

I'm glad to see this situation working out relatively well. Hopefully lessons are learned all around.

[01midmetws6]

That the shop owner comes here to explain himself is a good sign of a responsible business. Add to that the insurance protection, etc... All seems above board.

However, I do not yet have the impression that the gentleman understands the reason so many in this community react this strongly to something like this is NOT just about the money.

He referenced the concern he feels about a thread like this destroying a reputation he's spent thousands of hours building.... That sort of concern is what needs to enter his mind when he's taking risks with a project car that others have sacrificed for, and spent their blood, sweat, tears and thousands of hours building. It's right to think of these cars as irreplaceable and sentimental.

Speaking for myself - I've put more of my time, treasure and passion into my car than I care to admit. I could not put a monetary sum on the value of my car (and the experiences / memories it represents to me...). It's not about the money.

I'd suggest it's more appropriate to think of these cars as their customer's children (or if that's too extreme - a beloved family pet), left in their care - versus simply being expensive possessions.

I'm glad to see this situation working out relatively well. Hopefully lessons are learned all around.

Couldn't agree more, I am a builder myself and understand fully how much time and effort goes into a car. My responses have been directed to the questions that have been brought up as best as possible. Keep in mind I did take every precaution possible to make sure the car was parked as safe as it could be (not in the lot, parked next to a curb on one side and my fiancee's Legacy on the other). I understand the concern but in all honesty you are much more likely to end up with a door ding in the gas station parking lot than with it safely parked on the far end of a lot.

[01midmetws6]

One other thing, I saw many responses to dyno tuning over street tuning and can assure the quality of the tune is not affected by not having the car on the rollers. Quite the opposite really, driving a car in natural conditions is a much better way to assure proper driveability. This is a stock LS2 with a 233/239 camshaft. After I was complete fuel trims were within 1-2% (both SD and MAF), WOT afr's were 12.5:1 @ peak torque and 12.8:1 @ peak hp, WOT timing was 22* @ peak torque and 26* at peak hp. If/when the customer dynos the car it will likely make 5-7 more hp and lb/ft with another degree of timing but to keep everything safe it is not really worth adding that timing back in to allow some octane tolerance.

[minendrews68]

I agree with what others have said, coming on here to tell your side of the story means a lot. I do understand how the owner feels though Im sure he feels like at a point he was taken advantage of when in reality he might not have been.

[MonzaRacer]

Ok, as for the long drive, meh I drive cars sometimes 25 or more miles for diag purposes. Fact one, he owned up to the going golfing in your car. If it wasn't broken I think I would definitely do some dealing. But I would calmly let him know that I am not happy about the golf trip, possibly might get around his shop joy rides certain cars.
As for burn out, weeeellll that could be to see if it was taking off right after tuning.
Make me mad,,,,,annoyed, disappointed yeah . destructive to his clubs,,,, nah. Might give him couple of missed appointments to return them, claim emergency of some sort.
If no actual harm to car, take middle road not low road or high road. Your tires will show obvious issues from burn outs, and wheels wells can hide burnt rubber.
Good luck and nice car.

[427camaro]

Hey Guys, I meant to post last night but ended up not having the time. It's Mothers Day today and I gotta run soon so this will have to be quick as well, but I wanted to give everyone an update. I am trying to keep this simple and factual.

Carl and I met up yesterday over a cup of coffee and talked things out. We still have a few disagreements, but all in all I think we are both pretty much on the same page. My biggest concern was not being told up front that the car would be driven/tuned after hours to wherever he needed to be then home and back to the shop. I explained that the customer should decide whether or not they are comfortable with that. It's kinda like bringing your car in to get the brakes done and they tell you that you need an alignment. The mechanic should ask you if you want to proceed. Not, surprise! you owe me twice as much. Surprise! I took you car to the golf course and home. lol. Carl gets most of his tuning business by referral and assumed that info was passed along and that I knew that was how they do business and apologized for not being upfront about that. He said he was pretty busy when I came in that day and our time was rushed and felt that contributed to it not getting brought up, which he also apologized for. Carl said that going forward he is going to make sure customers are fully aware of how he does his tunes and let the customer know if their car will be driven after hours.

Carl did not like that I posted on this forum asking for input and thought I should have talked to him first. I disagreed. I could have gone on google and left a review with 1 star explaining my experience with his shop and never gone back. Instead I ask opinions from (how I put it to him) people that helped me build my car. I left the shop anonymous and simply wanted to know what someone would do in my shoes. Who better to get an opinion from than a bunch of guys that own cars just like mine and/or have more experience with tunes than I do that can tell me if they think it's out of line or if I should be upset or not. Forums are on the net for sharing insights and info. I think by the end of the conversation we both agreed that it was more so the post being poorly worded (which I apologized for). It was quickly written on my lunch break at work with anger, emotion and speculation. I edited the first post a little and kept it simple and factually just like I have with this follow up.

I still need to figure out my wheel. When I dropped the car off there was slight tire rub on the back inside of the drivers tire to subframe when turned lock to the left. Carl said he did hear a slight grinding when he turned the car lock to the right and little tire rubbing lock to the left. The wheel got chewed up when turning to the right - after the castle nut had worked it's way off. He said he tried not to turn lock to lock. I am going to figure out what a hoop will cost and see if Carl would be willing to split it with me since neither of us are really sure if it happened on his time or my way home from his shop or both.

In the end, I am happy with the tune Carl provided and would definitely be comfortable letting him tune my car in the future. I believe Carl is a pretty stand up guy and business owner.

MODERATOR, CAN YOU PLEASE CHANGE THE TITLE OF THIS POST TO:
Opinions - Tuner left clubs in car

[SSLance]

Thanks for posting the update. I'm glad to hear you all are working things out.

For what it's worth, If I was in the area and needed a tune, I'd hire Carl to do it.

[Justin@EntropyRad]

It is good to see two-way communication between the guys. Shops can be made or broken via the forums/social these days.

Things happen.

I'd still rather have a tune on the rollers, but understand that's not always feasible

[Barrrf]

Kudos to the shop owner for coming on. Everything has already been said that I wouldve said. I used to detail cars (LONG time ago during college) and the temptation was always there to maybe take a car to lunch or whatever - but there was no way I could afford a door ding or dented fender. I gotta say, even with the insurance coverage the shop owner has huge nuts to risk the potential backlash of vehicle damage. Either way, so long as both parties agree to the procedure then all is well. Good luck to both of you.


I still need new clubs tho...............

[Typhoon1015]

Nick,

Sorry to hear about this situation. I understand both sides of this as was in the same position as you with leaving a car with someone else. I have worked with Carl for 3-4 years now and he has done tuning on my chevelle and has helped me with pointers while I learn HPTuners for myself. I let him have the chevelle for a week the first go around and he did the alignment as well as the tuning. We did a street tune which dialed it in the best for drive-ability and then we worked out a time to take it to the dyno as well. He is one of the most standup guys I know and very professional. I would let him drive any of my cars at anytime.

I am sure this will get worked out and everyone will be happy in the end.

[gotyorgoat]

I don't like having things in the trunk because there is nothing to prevent things from sliding around and leaving a dent in the rear quarter. Especially during agressive driving. Was there consideration given to that?

I don't like leaving my car in a lot where it could get door dings. Was consideration given to that?

I don't like leaving my black car out in the hot sun. Consideration given to that?

I don't like the thought of not knowing where my car is parked overnight. Consideration given to that?

These are all conversations that nobody would ever think to have because why the hell would that ever be an issue?

[01midmetws6]

I don't like having things in the trunk because there is nothing to prevent things from sliding around and leaving a dent in the rear quarter. Especially during agressive driving. Was there consideration given to that?

Aggressive driving? It is aweful to assume the worse in people without discussing it with them. All 3-4 WOT pulls were made through a single gear to the limiter, push in the clutch, pull over, make change and do it again. That is the extent of the "abuse" I put a car through. The exact same driving conditions that are done with the car on the dyno.

I don't like leaving my car in a lot where it could get door dings. Was consideration given to that?

Parked between a curb and my GF's Legacy (stated in post above), seems unlikely but something I will continue to monitor.

I don't like leaving my black car out in the hot sun. Consideration given to that?

The same one that he said he painted flat black and washes with dishsoap so he doesn't have to worry about it. I will re-evaluate

I don't like the thought of not knowing where my car is parked overnight. Consideration given to that?

Absolutely fell short, I made an assumption and apologized (see previous posts)

These are all conversations that nobody would ever think to have because why the hell would that ever be an issue?

You are looking through something with partial information (very dangerous territory) If you take the time to actually talk to me, walk through our business and see how we operate I think your mind would change dramatically.

With responses to that I have to say this is starting to get a little insane. Of course consideration is given in all areas. They way the original post was written was in a way to direct negative feelings and support the poster in his anger. THIS IS NOT A "JOY RIDE" as stated in the original post. I am insanely consciousness of all vehicles that I tune and would have to say that given the fact I tune around 100 cars/year and have not had an issue is a testament to the care I provide in my possession. Look at the facts, the customer is happy with the services I provided, I offer anything for resolve and people still flame the fact that my constant working (including after hours) to get the customer in and done ASAP results in some construed misuse of the car!

[01midmetws6]

Nick,

Sorry to hear about this situation. I understand both sides of this as was in the same position as you with leaving a car with someone else. I have worked with Carl for 3-4 years now and he has done tuning on my chevelle and has helped me with pointers while I learn HPTuners for myself. I let him have the chevelle for a week the first go around and he did the alignment as well as the tuning. We did a street tune which dialed it in the best for drive-ability and then we worked out a time to take it to the dyno as well. He is one of the most standup guys I know and very professional. I would let him drive any of my cars at anytime.

I am sure this will get worked out and everyone will be happy in the end.

Thanks for the kind words Justin. I had a new customer referred in by your Dad a couple weeks ago that we were able to fix an ongoing driveline vibration. Please thank him for the referral. It looks like you got your Jeep running as well, don't hesitate to call/e-mail if you need any advise on the tune.

[andrewb70]

I think that about wraps it up. I see no benefit of us beating this dead horse anymore. It sounds like Nick and Carl are working this out.

Andrew