Noisy Power Steering and Hydratech System

[old66tiger]

Hey guys.

I have the LS3 with Corvette style accessories. I bled this thing several times and no matter what I do, it is noisy while idling and worse when moving towards either lock. The brakes seem to work fine, but when I pump them more than once, the booster makes a swooshing noise. Any ideas? Also, lots of tiny air bubbles in the reservoir. Sounds like air in the system but I have no idea.

[cactuss4]

not sure about the noise, but are you using a T or do you have individual returns? Heard stories when using a T.

Not sure if related, thought I would ask.

[RLJ676]

Try Lucas stop leak,helped quiet my crummy dorman reman box down, and smoothed it out a ton.

[cpd004]

oldtiger...I'm running the same exact thing as you and have the same noise. I am running a T. I was under the impression that it might be the cheap aftermarket pump.

[old66tiger]

Talked to hydratech and I have some homework to do. First...may take 50 to 60 miles to get rid of the air in the system. Second...the pump may be trying to flow more fluid than necessary causing air. Essentially churning the fluid. More than 0.140" orifice moves too much fluid and will cause problems. A restrictor is required. Third...reservoir needs to be 0.5 to 0.75 quarts. Fourth...should be a vented cap. Fifth...should be running a magnetic filter on return. Sixth...should be a minimum of 5/8 supply to pump and 3/8 return to reservoir.

[dragonfly jones]

Wow. I haven't installed my hydaboost yet , but you mention a lot of things I didn't see in the instructions.

[cpd004]

I have somewhere around 130 or so miles on my set up and it hasn't quieted down at all. I suppose the pump could be flowing too much, but how do you restrict flow to just the Hydratech system without restricting it to the gear box? IIRC it goes from the pump to the hydroboost and then to the gear box. The stock corvette reservoir doesn't look as if it can hold that much fluid, but I never measured. I was under the impression that all modern caps were vented. Can you post a link to the type of filter they're referring to?

Thanks for getting all this info.

[Hydratech®]

Here is some good reading that will help you understand these systems better:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=36999

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86332-Backpressure-issues-w-Hydratech

Excessive pump flow is the culprit 99% of the time. Concept One had a mutual customer complaining of system noise bring his pump directly in to them for some testing - they dyno'ed the pump to find it flowing about 3.5 GPM, running noisy. Upon our instruction, they replaced the PS pump output fitting with one that had a smaller orifice sizing to bring pump flow down to 2.0 - 2.2 GPM to find whisper quiet operations and a much cooler power steering system run temp...

[cpd004]

From what I'm told, the Corvette pump generally flows about 2.6 gpm. This is according to Turn One steering. Since I need a smaller pulley, should I have the flow reduced further down to 2.2 gpm? I am going to eliminate the T altogether and use the Russell fitting tapped into the side of the reservoir.

[old66tiger]

From what I'm told, the Corvette pump generally flows about 2.6 gpm. This is according to Turn One steering. Since I need a smaller pulley, should I have the flow reduced further down to 2.2 gpm? I am going to eliminate the T altogether and use the Russell fitting tapped into the side of the reservoir. I would love to eliminate the T myself. It just doesn't look good but I am loss for getting a fitting to seal in the plastic reservoir.

[cpd004]

I believe 670850 here is the one Hydratech is talking about.

Sorry....forgot the link:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-670850?seid=srese1&gclid=CIuMkbGFs8UCFRAwaQodDkQAUQ

[gmorris]

This is the reservoir I went to. I built a bracket to mount it directly above the pump so the suction line is about 4" long. It sticks up a bit but it has the dedicated 3rd inlet, a big capacity and the filter removes small air bubbles. Seems to be working well so far.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/pro-touring-p-s-remote-reservoir-w-filter-21330.html

[old66tiger]

Well, Pulled the pump and the output orifice is 0.128" So...that rules that out. What next? I really don't want to go to a massive reservoir. It will stick out too much.

[WallaceMFG]

What fluid are you using? I was told that Hydratech recommends Royal Purple power steering fluid, maybe that could help? My friend had the same problem as you, he switched the fluid and it helped, but his pump also was bad so it didn't completely cure it in his case.

[old66tiger]

Talked with GM tech and they are warranting the pump. I am switching to Royal Purple and I will also be getting a "short" reservoir to take the place of the corvette one. Not ideal, but I need this to work correctly.

[CarlC]

When first using the Hydraboost system it was difficult to get it completely bled. In the end, switching to the GM power steering fluid cured all of the air entrainment problems. The Camaro still uses the GM fluid even though the steering pump is different and the HB is no longer used. It just works, but a small cooler may be needed for higher speed applications.

[sam 74]

on my system i had to open up my fitting to increase flow, went to 5/32 i was having issues with loss of assist at idle and just off idle, so i had to increase my flow. when i had a T fitting i had all sorts of issues, i ordered a res from an vender on here with 2 returns, a -6 from the box outlet/cooler and a -8 from hydroboost, and a -10 to pump, that cured alot of the issues i was having. when the single return res was used i was also getting airation from the fluid returning churning up in the res with air and getting bubbles in it and that got sucked into the pump and caused some noise. the biggest problem with the T fitting was to much back pressure in the system and the brakes wouldn't disengage for a few seconds after i let off the pedal.

[old66tiger]

Ok....got the new pump and set to work putting things back together. First off, I installed the o-ring adaper in the pump and when I tried threading the AN fitting on the adapter, the pulley was too close. I ended up grinding a small amount of metal from the back side of the pulley and was able to get the fitting on. The old pump was close but it fit ok. I bench bled the pump before putting it on the car. There wasn't much air in the pump and it cleared up quickly. I put the pump on the car and started the bleeding process. The old 1966 Saginaw pump bled immediately. I have several hours into bleeding this setup with the type 2 pump. I cycled the steering back and fourth a million times, depressed the pedal several times, etc... I am using a clear hose on the return going into the top of the reservoir which is very handy when watching for bubbles. It is much quieter but I have no idea if this is it. Also...the new pump has an output orifice of about 0.128"

[cpd004]

I took a different approach than you. I sent my factory pump in to Turn One for a smaller pulley due to clearance issues and to adjust the flow to Hydratech's specs. I also eliminated the T and added a return directly to the factory reservoir above the fluid line for the hydroboost. I swapped to redline synthetic fluid (I'm not a fan of Royal Purple at all) and bled the system which seemed to take forever. I still have noise and it's barely quitter than when I started. I don't have a clear hose, but don't see bubbles forming either. I've only got about 30 or so miles on it since redoing it. I put a hose from my ear to the pump and the sound is definitely from within. It's not as quiet as it should be and seems to be the loudest noise under the hood.

[old66tiger]

I got everything together this weekend and took it for a few short trips. The pump is significantly quieter and the steering and brakes are reasonably responsive. You can still hear some noise coming from the pump under load. Does not appear to whine as bad while idling which is an improvement. Next step is a PSC reservoir. They are making a shorter version for us pro-touring guys. Would be nice if they could make something that mimics the corvette style reservoir...size and fit.

[Mkelcy]

Try: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-63788 I plumbed a separate return for the Hydroboost unit into the tank and solved all of my issues with the steering/braking hydraulics.

[cpd004]

I already did this and it didn't work for me.

[Hydratech®]

I had written a very long dissertation on the subject of PS noise to suffer the exceptional anguish of having it all disappear when I went to submit the post !@#$%$^%&**( Some sort of server time out or whatever, and it is ALL GONE. I have read up on this, and will save all extended forum posts to "Word" before suffering this again - oh, the humanity...

At ANY RATE, the Cliff's Notes was that we have come up with a cool new end user serviceable high pressure hydraulic filter that installs in the high pressure line (between the PS pump and the hydroboost unit) that also provides high frequency hydraulic noise suppression characteristics to help quell hydraulic system noise. Stay tuned. It is available right now by calling (beta testing stages, but available), though we are still looking at a variety of different methods of clamping this (inline unit) down appropriately (like a cool rubber insulated frame mounted fuel pump clamp / bracket).

[ModernMuseum]

After quite a bit of work I got my 69 Firebird (LS3) back on the road. One of the modifications I did while she was down was to try and fix this RIDICULOUSLY ANNOYING power steering whine cause by the hydraboost / pump setup. Using a factory LS3 reservoir, I did away with the T-fitting and plumbed a separate return back to the reservoir and installed a new vented cap just in case (after a few hours of running, it hasn't leaked yet). Unfortunately after spending over $100+ on basic hose (thanks Biden & Co.), $20 in fittings and $20 on a new cap, this had absolutely no effect. Since this thread appears to be one of the more comprehensive ones on the topic, I'm just posting this update here in hopes this will help someone. I also had a conversation with the Hydraboost guys a few months back, and am posting my notes below, as I don't really see them posting here anymore. At this point in time, I am still without a fix, but need to resolve this one as the whine is ATROCIOUS.

Notes from convo with Hydraboost - things to check if you have this issue. Note that these are just notes of my conversation - not necessarily solutions:
--If you have a remove reservoir, make sure your cap is vented. I believe most factory ones are. My old one appeared to not be, so I replaced it just in case.
--Some aftermarket pumps flow at 3 GPM, which churn/aerate the fluid and create pump noise.
----As mentioned herein, unscrew the pump outlet fitting on your pump and you'll see a hole in the venturi at the discharge of the pump, which regulates the outlet flow. Ideally the size of this hole should be between 1/8" and 9/64" OD (you can use a drill bit to check the size). If the reservoir is a 1/2 quart, the hole can be 1/8"; if it's a 3/4 quart, the hole can be as large as 9/64".
----You can procure a different fitting (I don't recall from where) if you feel you need to change the size.
--They recommend a synthetic fluid (red line, royal purple, valvoline).
--Temperatures - you can check the temp if you're inclined. The temp should roughly match the water temp.


FYI, after this convo, I measured the size of the hole in my fitting and it was 1/8".

I guess my next steps in order of cost are:
--Change to a synthetic fluid (as of right now I just have a hodge podge of Oreily's stuff in there from over the years). What's the easiest method to drain the fluid? Is there a drain on the gear box?
--Send the pump off to be modded with a different (smaller?) pulley. To me, this seems counter-intuitive relative to HydraBoost's comments, as a smaller pulley will result in a higher RPM = more flow. I have a lathe, so I might consider whipping up a new fitting if I think this would help. Larger hole would yield less flow (at higher pressure?).
--Install a larger reservoir.

Pic of modified reservoir for reference (apologies for size):
206521

[ModernMuseum]

I spent the better part of an hour or so following methods on YT to try and get the air out of the system. I think it actually ended up being LOUDER after doing that.

Anyway, I attempted to get the car aligned last weekend and they couldn't get it completed because they need to move the driver's side upper A-arm in a little which will impact the power steering pulley (it's about 1/4" or less away if i recall correctly). Looks like several problems are now converging.

Should I attempt to change/reduce the diameter of the pulley and keep trying the methods to get the air out of the system or just go ahead and engage the experts and try to put in a new pump altogether?

[ModernMuseum]

Hard to believe that this problem has been the bane of my existence for almost a year now. I've since started trying to pull a vacuum on it (running and non-running) to try and get their air out. This also has given me a good indication that I don't have any leaks. Has anyone ever tried this? I'm at my wit's end with the whining. I've already done the turn left and right process from the internet a number of times and it doesn't seem to help, so now trying the vacuum method.

[dhutton]

I have had good luck with AC Delco power steering fluid FWIW. Started using it on Carls recommendation.

Don

[dhutton]

With both of those return lines beside each other I’m not sure you will get the desired result. CVF Racing has a remote reservoir with separated returns.
https://www.c1pulleys.com/products/hydroboost-remote-power-steering-reservoir-two-return-fittings

[dontlifttoshift]

Just to clarify Dons post. The CVF Racing reservoir is a steaming pile of garbage. https://support.cvfracing.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049939454-Remote-Power-Steering-Reservoir?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwbitBhDIARIsABfFYILR6zNBrF-Ht4uyWTvAWfV-kui_1DwVy1occdxCbH4DkccCZPCj8ekaAu0ZEALw_wcB

The Concept 1 reservoir Don linked is a much better design, just be sure to use the lower return for the steering and the upper for the Hydroboost.

I have had good results with the Holley Reservoir and it is far better engineered than both but not as pretty as the concept 1.

I vacuum bleed every power steering system, hydroboost or not.

[dhutton]

Just to clarify Dons post. The CVF Racing reservoir is a steaming pile of garbage. https://support.cvfracing.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049939454-Remote-Power-Steering-Reservoir?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwbitBhDIARIsABfFYILR6zNBrF-Ht4uyWTvAWfV-kui_1DwVy1occdxCbH4DkccCZPCj8ekaAu0ZEALw_wcB

The Concept 1 reservoir Don linked is a much better design, just be sure to use the lower return for the steering and the upper for the Hydroboost.

I have had good results with the Holley Reservoir and it is far better engineered than both but not as pretty as the concept 1.

I vacuum bleed every power steering system, hydroboost or not.
Thanks for correcting my senior moment Donny. :D I have used the Concept 1 reservoir not the CVF Racing.

Don

[dontlifttoshift]

I really didn't CVF getting credit for anything remotely good. :)

[dhutton]

I really didn't CVF getting credit for anything remotely good. :)
Agreed. Not a fan!

[ModernMuseum]

With both of those return lines beside each other I’m not sure you will get the desired result. CVF Racing has a remote reservoir with separated returns.
https://www.c1pulleys.com/products/hydroboost-remote-power-steering-reservoir-two-return-fittings


I have had good luck with AC Delco power steering fluid FWIW. Started using it on Carls recommendation.

Thanks. I think I am using this but I'll have to check. I did a bunch of research when I did the flush.

Don


Just to clarify Dons post. The CVF Racing reservoir is a steaming pile of garbage. https://support.cvfracing.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049939454-Remote-Power-Steering-Reservoir?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwbitBhDIARIsABfFYILR6zNBrF-Ht4uyWTvAWfV-kui_1DwVy1occdxCbH4DkccCZPCj8ekaAu0ZEALw_wcB

The Concept 1 reservoir Don linked is a much better design, just be sure to use the lower return for the steering and the upper for the Hydroboost.

I have had good results with the Holley Reservoir and it is far better engineered than both but not as pretty as the concept 1.

I vacuum bleed every power steering system, hydroboost or not.

What is your process for vacuum bleeding? Does it usually take a few tries?
Could there be some sort of issue with coupling the Turn One pump with my factory steering box?

I may have to try and Concept 1 reservoir. What issues could there be with my current reservoir? The Concept 1 just looks like it has both returns in the same proximity with no baffling in between.

[dontlifttoshift]

Jack up front end and properly support so that tires are off the ground. Apply vacuum to reservoir, turn wheels back and forth, at the tire not the steering wheel.

[dhutton]

Jack up front end and properly support so that tires are off the ground. Apply vacuum to reservoir, turn wheels back and forth, at the tire not the steering wheel.
Another great tip! Thanks Donny.

Don

[ModernMuseum]

Jack up front end and properly support so that tires are off the ground. Apply vacuum to reservoir, turn wheels back and forth, at the tire not the steering wheel.

So you just turn the tire at the wheel instead of the steering wheel? What's the difference?

Is jacking up the front to help get the air to the highest point?

[dontlifttoshift]

Jacking it up is to make it easier to turn the wheels.

Doing it at the tire? I really can't explain it, old timer told to me do it that way and even gave an explanation that made zero sense. Tried it, it worked quite well, now I do them all that way. For me, I can feel the air in a system when I am doing it that way. Also, bonus points because the car doesn't have to run as running the pump just spreads the air all over the system.

[ModernMuseum]

Jacking it up is to make it easier to turn the wheels.

Doing it at the tire? I really can't explain it, old timer told to me do it that way and even gave an explanation that made zero sense. Tried it, it worked quite well, now I do them all that way. For me, I can feel the air in a system when I am doing it that way. Also, bonus points because the car doesn't have to run as running the pump just spreads the air all over the system.

Gotcha, I've done a million turns left-right with the car off and on, but may have to try turning it at the wheel. I assume you go L-R-L-R and then push the brakes 3 times?

[ProTouring442]

First things first: is it noisy when standing next to the car?

My dad swore his was noisy. Turns out, it's only noisy inside the car. The braided lines are stiff enough they carry the noise.

[ModernMuseum]

First things first: is it noisy when standing next to the car?

My dad swore his was noisy. Turns out, it's only noisy inside the car. The braided lines are stiff enough they carry the noise.

I can't comment on how noisy it is outside the car, but from the inside the car, let's just say it sounds like a 1990 Ford Tempo that's been run dry for the last 500 miles and is crying out to the heavens for a drop of oil.

[dontlifttoshift]

First things first: is it noisy when standing next to the car?

My dad swore his was noisy. Turns out, it's only noisy inside the car. The braided lines are stiff enough they carry the noise.

Along those lines, a lack of rag joint or vibration reducing u joint in the steering linkage will transfer totally normal power steering sounds from the rack/box up through the column as well.

[ModernMuseum]

Noted. I'll try and get a video soon and post it here in case I can't figure it out within the next few days.

[ProTouring442]

I can't comment on how noisy it is outside the car, but from the inside the car, let's just say it sounds like a 1990 Ford Tempo that's been run dry for the last 500 miles and is crying out to the heavens for a drop of oil.

Until we rerouted the lines, my dad's Impala sounded like that. It's still way louder than I'd like, but it's not so bad. As another poster pointed out, eliminating the rag joint can cause a lot of noise, too (we're not running a rag jint).

[Steve Chryssos]

I may have to try and Concept 1 reservoir. What issues could there be with my current reservoir? The Concept 1 just looks like it has both returns in the same proximity with no baffling in between.

The Concept One Hydroboost Reservoirs does have separate baffles for each -6 return port. Hard to see in the pic but they are 90 degrees apart and stacked on top of each other. They are loc-tited in place. You can also see the vented cap. The second pic shows that the -10 feed port on bottom. It's actually an integral part of the housing, so this thing started out as one solid billet chunk -- not a tube. It's solid.
-Steve

https://www.c1pulleys.com/collections/parts-new