C5 spindles on First-Gen F-Bodies. . .pro's/con's???

[atomicjoe23]

Since I don't have a set of C5 spindles in front of me I cannot compare them to the stock first-gen F-Body spindles. . .I am planning on buying a set of C5 spindles for my '67 Firebird 400 coupe, but thought I would double check the pro's/con's with you guys first. . .

C5 spindle advantages:

- a stronger spindle that is possibly lighter than the stock first-gen F-Body spindle

- wider variety of brake packages available

-I believe these have a sealed hub/bearing construction. . .I guess that could be an advantage and a disadvantage

C5 spindle disadvantages:

- I don't know???

Another thing I am unaware of is the geometry of the C5 spindles; I am aware of the lack of camber gain in compression that the first-gen F-Bodies have. . .wondering. . .

- is the C5 spindle is taller than the stock F-Body spindle-->improving the camber curve. If so, how much???

-what about the steering arm location; improvement for bumpsteer???

These are just the things I have thought of off the top of my head. . .could those of you who have had experience with these spindles please post up. If there is already a post dedicated to this subject you could just post up the link. . .I couldn't find one.

Thanks!

[andrewb70]

The stock C5 spindles are far from being a bolt in on a 1st gen f-body. If you want all the advantages of a C5 spindles and fitment for your car, look at SpeedTech AFX spindles.

Andrew

[killer69]

They DON'T work scratch that plan.

[atomicjoe23]

Killer69. . .would you care to expand on that???

Andrew b70. . .I'm looking at the Classic Performance Products C5 spindles; the catalog says they are a bolt-on for first-gen F-bodies so maybe they aren't completely stock. The catalog also says they work with either the factory F-body steering arms or C5 steering arms, and it mentions that they are the early version of the AFX spindles.

I appreciate the feedback. . .and I'm looking forward to the clarifications.

Gonna email/call CPP and see what they have to say. . .I can't afford the STP AFX spindles at nearly $1300 right now; I just want to get my Firebird on the road with some improved handling. . .it's been sitting in a garage for 15 years while I was traveling the world courtesy of the USN.

[Build-It-Break-It]

The cpp spindles aren't going to improve anything except CPP's bank account. If you want improved handling and a c5/c6 based spindle then speed tech is the only one that'll bolt up and do that. If you juat want your car on the road then use what you already have, save up and by quality parts once.

[atomicjoe23]

OK. . .good to know; I will save my money then. . .

. . .thanks for the input.

[pist0lpete]

The cpp spindles aren't going to improve anything except CPP's bank account. If you want improved handling and a c5/c6 based spindle then speed tech is the only one that'll bolt up and do that. If you juat want your car on the road then use what you already have, save up and by quality parts once.

I don't believe this is a fair statement. The cpp c5 spindle is essentially a ferrous version of the aluminum speedtech spindle. That said, the originality and origin differences are certainly up for discussion. Just want to get all the facts out there.

[atomicjoe23]

I'm going to call CPP and hear it from them. . .it specifically states early AFX spindle which implies that it should have improved geometry; I know enough about suspension geometry to know when something sounds fishy and I know the right questions to ask. If I had a set sitting in front of me I could figure it out for myself, but I don't so I can't.

. . .what about C6 spindles? I'm not asking about bolt-on, just asking about geometry. . .I know Art Morrison is using the C6 stuff. . .

I'm just trying to do a small update/improvement to my '67 Firebird 400 coupe's suspension while I have it apart and getting it road worthy. . .the plan is to run the local Auto-X events with the small, generally inexpensive improvements until my driving skills improve. Once my driving has improved enough I will be looking to upgrade to the DSE UCA/LCA's and spindle along with a 3-link/Watt's link in the rear and coilovers all around.

Right now I have an Energy Suspension Hyperflex polyurethane bushing kit, aluminum body mounts (I machined them myself from the bushings in the Energy Suspension kit), I'm picking up 17" Camaro SS wheels ('97-'02 style. . .like the ZR-1 wheels) with rubber tomorrow, and I will be ordering DSE leaf springs, DSE 650 lb coil springs, and DSE 1 1/8" front anti-sway bar. . .it would be nice to fix the front geometry a little too. I was gonna do the Guldstrand mod, but DSE recommends the factory mounting points for their UCA/LCA's so I'm not going to do that anymore.

[atomicjoe23]

With all of this hullaballoo. . .I'm about ready to just go out do an extremely good job of measuring the stock geometry (after I replace all the bushing so everything is nice and tight) and machine my own spindles out of 7075. . .

. . .GEESH!

You can't really get a straight answer about what things are. . .you know that the DSE and STP stuff is good; everything else is a he said/she said fiasco!!!

I could probably get the stuff measured, figure out roughly what I want, spend a couple of days on a suspension analyzer program, draw what I want/need, and machine them in almost the same amount of time that it would take to order a set and wait for them to get here. . .and cost a WHOLE LOT less than the ATS AFX spindles.

[srh3trinity]

The c5 and c6 use the same uprights and control arms. Look for products that are tested. SpeedTech, DSE, Ride Tech, TCI and others are out there beating on these cars every weekend. They have spent a lot of time and money on developing these things and you aren't the first to say you can do it for cheaper. You may be able to, depends on your skill set and how much your time is worth. Keep us posted if you build a set.

[atomicjoe23]

I'm a Tool & Die Maker by trade. . .I designed and built two off-road race buggies (including the entire front/rear suspension and steering system) and re-vamped the front suspension/steering on a third while I was in school for the SAE Baja Challenge so this wouldn't be my first rodeo. I did those without the benefit of a suspension analyzer program; so that was all moving stuff and taking measurements in either AutoCAD or SolidEdge/SolidWorks depending on which buggy it was. . .

. . .those all had 5" plus of compression travel and I had bumpsteer down to less than an 1/8 across the entire range of travel; with a suspension analyzer program it takes so much less time; I have access to CNC machines so once the spindle is designed I can machine one in less than a day.

Thinking I might go down this road. . .time to obsess about suspension geometry again; at least this time it won't be from scratch and some of the mounting points are already known. It will take so much less time to improve an existing suspension than to make one from scratch. Once I get some number and start making some designs I will start a thread.

My time is worth a lot, but this is what I enjoy so I don't count that. . .that being said I could never offer the spindles commercially at a cheaper rate than DSE or STP. I'm sure those are quite the deal when you think about the time and effort that went into developing them; the cost of material alone is fairly significant. . .and a forging will be stronger than a machined from billet piece. . .I don't have the time or access to equipment to forge some blanks and then machine them; that would be a short-coming of a set that I could make vs. what DSE or STP offer (assuming there spindles are forged prior to machining).

[dhutton]

This is for A bodies but it will give you an idea:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/113073-C5-spindles-on-a-70-Chevelle-A-Body?highlight=C5+spindle

Mark at SC&C will be happy to tell you why it won't work for F bodies.

Don

[csouth]

I think when Blake said that they don't work, he was under the impression that you are talking about GM C5 spindles. Stock GM pieces will not work.

The Speedtech AFX spindles are not a C5 Spindle, the are a revised geometry Spindle that uses a C5/C6 bearing. AME can use the C6 upright because they have control arms that are designed to work with the ball joint and geometry of a C6 upright.

You won't find much response here about about the CPP spindle based on fact because of course, they don't visit this forum and there hasn't been any data presented. You will find that you can find data on Speedtech, DSE and Ridtech spindles.

[BanditDarble]

I'm a Tool & Die Maker by trade. . .I designed and built two off-road race buggies (including the entire front/rear suspension and steering system) and re-vamped the front suspension/steering on a third while I was in school for the SAE Baja Challenge so this wouldn't be my first rodeo. I did those without the benefit of a suspension analyzer program; so that was all moving stuff and taking measurements in either AutoCAD or SolidEdge/SolidWorks depending on which buggy it was. . .

. . .those all had 5" plus of compression travel and I had bumpsteer down to less than an 1/8 across the entire range of travel; with a suspension analyzer program it takes so much less time; I have access to CNC machines so once the spindle is designed I can machine one in less than a day.

Thinking I might go down this road. . .time to obsess about suspension geometry again; at least this time it won't be from scratch and some of the mounting points are already known. It will take so much less time to improve an existing suspension than to make one from scratch. Once I get some number and start making some designs I will start a thread.

My time is worth a lot, but this is what I enjoy so I don't count that. . .that being said I could never offer the arms commercially at a cheaper rate than DSE or STP. I'm sure those are quite the deal when you think about the time and effort that went into developing them; the cost of material alone is fairly significant. . .and a forging will be stronger than a machined from billet piece. . .I don't have the time or access to equipment to forge some blanks and then machine them; that would be a short-coming of a set that I could make vs. what DSE or STP offer (assuming there spindles are forged prior to machining).

If you have access to the equipment I'd definitely suggest making your own. That way you can make you suspension exactly how you want it.

If one doesn't want to, or doesn't have the capability of, constructing their own you can have an outfit like Coleman build custom spindles to your design. The custom Colemans are far cheaper than the AFX spindles and you can get them made with the bearings you want versus the expensive Vette hubs.

[srh3trinity]

I'm a Tool & Die Maker by trade. . .I designed and built two off-road race buggies (including the entire front/rear suspension and steering system) and re-vamped the front suspension/steering on a third while I was in school for the SAE Baja Challenge so this wouldn't be my first rodeo. I did those without the benefit of a suspension analyzer program; so that was all moving stuff and taking measurements in either AutoCAD or SolidEdge/SolidWorks depending on which buggy it was. . .

. . .those all had 5" plus of compression travel and I had bumpsteer down to less than an 1/8 across the entire range of travel; with a suspension analyzer program it takes so much less time; I have access to CNC machines so once the spindle is designed I can machine one in less than a day.

Thinking I might go down this road. . .time to obsess about suspension geometry again; at least this time it won't be from scratch and some of the mounting points are already known. It will take so much less time to improve an existing suspension than to make one from scratch. Once I get some number and start making some designs I will start a thread.

My time is worth a lot, but this is what I enjoy so I don't count that. . .that being said I could never offer the arms commercially at a cheaper rate than DSE or STP. I'm sure those are quite the deal when you think about the time and effort that went into developing them; the cost of material alone is fairly significant. . .and a forging will be stronger than a machined from billet piece. . .I don't have the time or access to equipment to forge some blanks and then machine them; that would be a short-coming of a set that I could make vs. what DSE or STP offer (assuming there spindles are forged prior to machining).

Take pictures of the process then. I don't have the knowledge or skill set but I enjoy seeing what others are capable of.

[atomicjoe23]

Thanks for the link and the extra information. . .good read, good info, and good to know.

[atomicjoe23]

This is what the CPP catalog says about the spindles I'm talking about. . .

"The early AFX body tall spindle helps with improved geometry by giving a better camber change during suspension movement and also maintains the drum brake offset."

Can anyone clarify. . .it sounds to me like these are AFX spindles???

I'm not disregarding what you guys have posted/shared with me. . .I'm just trying to figure out what the story with these particular spindles are. Although slightly more expensive I could probably swing the RideTech spindles sooner rather than later. . .the only problem is the RideTech spindles are only compatible with aftermarket tubular control arms which is out of my short term price range while the AFX spindles are compatible with the factory control arms.

[dhutton]

This is what the CPP catalog says about the spindles I'm talking about. . .

"The early AFX body tall spindle helps with improved geometry by giving a better camber change during suspension movement and also maintains the drum brake offset."

Can anyone clarify. . .it sounds to me like these are AFX spindles???

I'm not disregarding what you guys have posted/shared with me. . .I'm just trying to figure out what the story with these particular spindles are. Although slightly more expensive I could probably swing the RideTech spindles sooner rather than later. . .the only problem is the RideTech spindles are only compatible with aftermarket tubular control arms which is out of my short term price range while the AFX spindles are compatible with the factory control arms.

They are referring to early A, F, X body cars, not the Speedtech AFX spindle. Not sure if they are intentionally being misleading or not....

Don

[killer69]

Killer69. . .would you care to expand on that???

Andrew b70. . .I'm looking at the Classic Performance Products C5 spindles; the catalog says they are a bolt-on for first-gen F-bodies so maybe they aren't completely stock. The catalog also says they work with either the factory F-body steering arms or C5 steering arms, and it mentions that they are the early version of the AFX spindles.

I appreciate the feedback. . .and I'm looking forward to the clarifications.

Gonna email/call CPP and see what they have to say. . .I can't afford the STP AFX spindles at nearly $1300 right now; I just want to get my Firebird on the road with some improved handling. . .it's been sitting in a garage for 15 years while I was traveling the world courtesy of the USN.


in your OP you asked about C5 Spindles??? that is what comes on a C5 Corvette. THOES ones DOn't and Cant work on a First gen sub. you didn't mention any after market spindle that uses a C5 hub??

[DJW32]

Joe,
Give cpp a call. Make sure that the spindle will bolt up to your firebird. Cpp version of the afx spindle is not made from aluminum. It will enable you to use many different brake systems. I imagine you will need new tie rods, bearings, brakes, and wheels to just name a few. If you search the site, you will find a long debate about whether or not cpp copied the ats spindle...the spindles to share a lot of comminality.

[atomicjoe23]

Thanks DJW32; I'll look the thread up. . .I emailed CPP this morning; after I get a response I will call to find out what else I would need.

Thanks Killer69. . .I should have been more specific; I didn't know exactly what I was looking at initially. I said C5 because that's what the CPP website called them.

I think I'm pretty well sorted out now. . .looks like I will be saving for either the ATS AFX spindle or the DSE spindle.

[killer69]

I don't think DSE makes a spindle for the First Gen???? Stock Sub frame ? they make one for their sub frame but it won't work on a stock sub

[another69]

If you can machine them yourself great, but otherwise the ATS spindle looks to be the best option out there short of going with an entire new subframe. I made the mistake of buying a decent brake kit for the stock spindles so now I need to upgrade my brakes again when I buy the ATS spindles (they take C5 brakes).

[atomicjoe23]

I was wondering about that. . .I see that they make a spindle, and it's in the catalog. I couldn't figure out why there wasn't a price. . .I thought it might be offered only as part of a packeage. I didn't realize that it was only offered/compatible with their front subframe which is WAY out of my price range at this point in time.

That makes the choice easy; the ATS AFX spindle if I buy.

Thanks for pointing that out another69!

[atomicjoe23]

I got the return email from CPP today; DHutton was correct they are referring to the A, F, X-body cars. . .

. . .I believe they are being intentionally misleading; the spindles look extremely similar to the ATS AFX spindles and the mention of a "tall spindle body" implies they are improving the geometry when in fact they are not changing anything.

[BanditDarble]

If the spindle is taller they are in fact improving geometry.

I have to say the love affair I see with brands in the PT community is fairly comical to me. It's no wonder outfits like DSE, Speedtech, etc don't list actual specs on their websites as people 1) don't care 2) don't understand what the numbers mean 3) can't take those numbers and compare them to other products and make an educated decision.

If the cast iron copy of the AFX spindle is the same in all dimensions, guess what. It helps the geometry just as much as the AFX does.

[rickpaw]

You can also use tall upper ball joints/tall lower tie rod ends for the stock control arms, and use Kore3 brake set up for the brakes. That will give you improvements over the stock stuff, and save/wait for the Speedtech spindles to go on sale. That will get you going, rather than having the car on jackstands.

[killer69]

I was wondering about that. . .I see that they make a spindle, and it's in the catalog. I couldn't figure out why there wasn't a price. . .I thought it might be offered only as part of a packeage. I didn't realize that it was only offered/compatible with their front subframe which is WAY out of my price range at this point in time.

That makes the choice easy; the ATS AFX spindle if I buy.

Thanks for pointing that out another69!

Not true, UNLESS your talking about the Second gen front kit. The Spindles ARE available separately the price is 1199.00 complete. with GM C7 hubs (same as the ZR1 without wheel speed sensor)

[atomicjoe23]

Not true, UNLESS your talking about the Second gen front kit. The Spindles ARE available separately the price is 1199.00 complete. with GM C7 hubs (same as the ZR1 without wheel speed sensor)

Blake, I was talking about the DSE spindles in that comment; I am planning on buying the ATS AFX spindles from you guys. Considering the fact that your AFX spindles come complete with the hubs and hardware they are an EXTREMELY good deal!!!

You have been extremely helpful and forth coming with information, not to mention patient with my many questions, over the last week.



You can also use tall upper ball joints/tall lower tie rod ends for the stock control arms, and use Kore3 brake set up for the brakes. That will give you improvements over the stock stuff, and save/wait for the Speedtech spindles to go on sale. That will get you going, rather than having the car on jackstands.

I thought about going that route, but the cost of the ball joints plus the taller studs ends up being fairly significant (about $500) and I would be spending that money, and then spending money again to buy the AFX spindles. . .I've decided to invest in the AFX spindles up front and not spend the money twice.


If the spindle is taller they are in fact improving geometry. If the cast iron copy of the AFX spindle is the same in all dimensions, guess what. It helps the geometry just as much as the AFX does.

The spindles are not taller. . .I emailed CPP and the spindles are all stock geometry; nothing has been moved. They are not a cast iron copy of the ATS AFX spindles; that is straight from CPP.


I have to say the love affair I see with brands in the PT community is fairly comical to me. It's no wonder outfits like DSE, Speedtech, etc don't list actual specs on their websites as people 1) don't care 2) don't understand what the numbers mean 3) can't take those numbers and compare them to other products and make an educated decision

I have been talking with SpeedTech Performance, DSE, and RideTech directly. . .they have all been happy to provide numbers, in fact RideTech has the camber curves and bump steer curves posted directly on their website (stock, RideTech package, and several other combinations). They also have diagrams of their spindles comparing their geometry to the stock geometry.

Maybe not everyone understands the numbers and can make a comparison between products, but there are a LOT of people who do understand the numbers, and who do know how to make a comparison. Information is so available now that if you are willing to do a little reading and then go out and make some changes on your car, drive it, and see what the difference is you can end up learning this stuff pretty fast.

[Blue66]

The spindles are not taller. . .I emailed CPP and the spindles are all stock geometry; nothing has been moved. They are not a cast iron copy of the ATS AFX spindles; that is straight from CPP.

Not sure who this guy talked to or what has changed since his post but this is simply NOT TRUE. How do I know? I was at Summit Racing yesterday with my stock spindle and a tape measure in hand. Just clearing the air for anyone who wants factual, real info. CPP part # 30013 is exactly 1" taller than a first gen spindle while maintaining factory ride height.

Ben