For those running SCCA Autocross...

[SRD art]

I've got 2 questions for the guys that run pro touring/ muscle cars in SCCA autocross events-

1.) I just attended an event with a region I haven't raced with before. They ranked all the cars fastest to slowest using a PAX time. What is a PAX time? I couldn't find a clear answer on the internet, just some dead links.

2.) My son and I are the only ones running CAM in the 2 closest SCCA regions. Mine is the faster car of the two and although it feels responsive and quick through the course, out of 40 cars at this last event I only beat 9 of them. Really the closest cars to compare to were some Corvettes and a couple new Mustangs. I was faster than one stock C5 corvette, but the 4 other Vettes that were modified beat me. The rest of the field that were faster were mostly all imports.
My car weighs about 3700 lbs with me, has about 325 hp at the flywheel, and runs on Nitto NT555 daily driver street tires. For comparison my best was a 69.7XX and the fastest car of the day (and always is the fastest) was a race prepped Lotus Elise on "DOT" slicks that ran a 56.XX. There was a 2015 Mustang Turbo that was 63.7XX in STU class but I didn't get to ask if it was modded at all or see what tires he had. A 2012 Boss 302 Mustang on "DOT" slicks ran 64.6. Only 4 cars broke into the 50s, the rest of the cars faster than me were in the 60s as well. The slowest of the day was my son at 76.XXX, also running a G body wagon with a fairly decent suspension but bone stock drivetrain. He drives fairly well, so I believe a big part of why he was slowest was because of lack of power more than anything.

My question is those of you that are running muscle cars at SCCA events, how do you compare? I've come to grips that I'll get my shorts handed to me by a lot of the cars, but what should I expect and be happy/ comfortable with as far as comparing to the little cars?

[rchaskin]

LOL....back of the pack blues.....
I feel this exact thing when I go to an SCCA event.

I typically run in the middle to top third at GG events.

This is what happens when you race with light cars that were engineered to be fast by hundreds of engineers and years of learning.

You are never going to beat an s2000 or evo on an autocross course....
A couple of years ago, at the "American Streeet Car" series race at Kershaw, an Evo won the dang thing.....

The pax is something came up with to try and make everyone equal, like a handicap...
http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2015.html

just keep having fun and forget about the competition.....

[Schubitzky]

I normally run mid pack out of all the cars in our region. Our fastest cars are BRZs, WRXs, CRXs, and a couple newer mustangs and f-bodies, unless Strano is there and he usually cleans up with his C6. Most of the fast cars come from ESP or STX. It's tough to compare to the cars on the DOT slicks because the tires make such a big difference. My goal is to be close with the ESP and CP guys because that's where I'd be w/o CAM, realizing that I'm on 340 street tires and they're on the 60 DOT slicks.

I agree to have fun, but it does suck finishing towards the back. I think my first one I only beat 10 or so other cars. You'll get better if you keep going.

[Nicks67GTO]

Just look at it a different way....you're taking a heavy 40 year old car that was designed to haul groceries, adding some bolt ons and running within 10% of a 2012 Boss Mustang on slicks. Not bad.

[SSLance]

You are never going to beat an s2000 or evo on an autocross course....




Uh, I beg to differ... ;)

42 1 cam 24 Lance Hamilton 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS 49.692
53 3 nbs 19 Dakota Fletcher 2002 Honda S2000 50.394

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event13_raw.htm

[TheJDMan]

A lot has to do with the skill of the driver. I suck compared to the veteran drivers but as long as I can improve then I am happy.

[SRD art]

Thanks for the insight so far guys! Takes a big man to admit that Steve, thanks, that makes me feel a little better.

Lance, the more I hear things like that the more I wanna take you down, lol! :enguard: When are those G body autocross nationals going to be?

[SRD art]

BTW, the reason I mention the lack of power is while watching cones I got to see the faster C5 Corvette run, it was loud and man that thing accelerated fast, and cornered fast too. It had 315 R compound Hoosiers with 2 tread lines and a "200" tread wear rating on all 4 corners. Even if my car stuck like his, with that kind of acceleration I wouldn't be able to touch him. I saw the same thing with some of the faster cars at the Hotchkis event last year too, with just the right stick, power, and driver capability that combo made for a fast car.

[WallaceMFG]

I've just accepted that no matter what I do to my Chevelle, I will never be able to outrun my friend in a Miata haha. I go for the fun, not to be in first place.

[Red67Mustang]

I've just accepted that no matter what I do to my Chevelle, I will never be able to outrun my friend in a Miata haha. I go for the fun, not to be in first place.

I agree 100%... Just have fun in the knowledge you are having blast in the bada$$, cool car you built - and that no matter how fast the other guy is; he's still driving a Miata (or insert virtually any other foreign car model here...)

[Tomswheels]

I've just accepted that no matter what I do to my Chevelle, I will never be able to outrun my friend in a Miata haha. I go for the fun, not to be in first place.

Fun is always the number one priority! However never give up, it takes a lot of careful planning to make a CAM car a well balanced Autocross car, but it certainly CAN BE DONE! One thing that will help a lot is good 200 treadwear tires. Strictly to try and inspire you, and a little tooting of my own horn, here are the results of our first San Diego SCCA event of the year, and as you can see from these results, the winning CAM car (a very low HP 1967 Valiant with a Hotchkis kit and big tires) ran a 56.6, which was faster than all the late model muscle cars, faster than five late model Vettes, faster than four S2000s, faster than 2 Evos, and faster than A total of 20 Miatas....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/p4865369992-1.jpg (http://lateapexphoto.com/p289424077/e1cfff727)

[SSLance]

Hell yeah Tom! Nice job, great list of kills there... :D Fantastic run!!

That should be motivation for everyone here!!

[Tomswheels]

Hell yeah Tom! Nice job, great list of kills there... :D Fantastic run!!

That should be motivation for everyone here!!

Thanks Lance, would love the chance to race you and the Monte someday!

[72BBSwinger]

Tom if you keep it up, they will outlaw torsion bars and leaf springs......

[Tomswheels]

Tom if you keep it up, they will outlaw torsion bars and leaf springs......

Haha! I never thought of that...

[SSLance]

Thanks Lance, would love the chance to race you and the Monte someday!

Yeah uh...I think I'm busy that weekend... :D lol...

So any video of your first run? Something fun must have happened on it right?

[Tomswheels]

Oh boy, I was hoping no one would notice, got lost, got frustrated, then spun... Twice... I usually strive to run a good easy clean lap first then pick it up, but that one went all sorts of bad...

[nokones]

A lot has to do with the skill of the driver. I suck compared to the veteran drivers but as long as I can improve then I am happy.

Even the veteran drivers and even the Hot Shoes sucked at the beginning. It takes a lot of seat time to get to the top. Just have patience and patience will reward you. If you don't exercise any patience, you will be beat by the lack of impatience and yourself.

[nokones]

BTW, the reason I mention the lack of power is while watching cones I got to see the faster C5 Corvette run, it was loud and man that thing accelerated fast, and cornered fast too. It had 315 R compound Hoosiers with 2 tread lines and a "200" tread wear rating on all 4 corners. Even if my car stuck like his, with that kind of acceleration I wouldn't be able to touch him. I saw the same thing with some of the faster cars at the Hotchkis event last year too, with just the right stick, power, and driver capability that combo made for a fast car.

Hoosier's tire wear rating is "40", not " 200". I'm not sure what their wet tires are but, they do not make a 200 tire. The tires you saw with the 2 lines were the A6 or R6 tire.

[SRD art]

At Tom- I saw you at the Hotchkis event in Fontana in October. I sure didn't expect your car to be that fast!! You got me by 2 seconds on our best runs. I noticed at that race most of the cars I saw had Falken 615s or Rivals, wish I had too, I might have had a little better chance against you faster guys. :)

At Kenny- Thanks for the supportive words. I must've seen the wrong number on those Hoosiers, I looked quick, didn't want anyone upset at me for being too close to the car. Maybe the 200 meant how many street miles you'd get out of 'em, lol!

[Tomswheels]

Ben, the big thing I've found is that HP doesn't matter, how you get the HP down matters. Tires at or under their traction limit are doing more good than tires that are sliding.... Are you coming into CA for any autocrosses this year?

[SRD art]

Tom- I agree, coming from a background of warehouse district street racing in the 90's, being able to get the car to hook often meant you won the race. The whole tire thing keeps haunting me. When I built the car initially I set it up for 315s out back. Because of the budget I had at the time I'm running 300 tread wear 275s on 17x9.5" wheels all around. So I'm saving for an extra set of some low priced 18" wheels and the plan at this point is I will go with 315 and 275 Falken 615s. Whew, there went $2500, that fast.

Before I do that though, my motor is approaching 100,000 hard miles and although it still runs great I can also see (after Fontana and watching a couple of those Corvettes last weekend) that I need more go go under the hood. My rear axle is the factory 7.5" weakling and a 2.41 geared one legger pegger. I still have my old drag motor that would put me at about 7.5 lbs per hp and a posi 9" Ford that needs to be narrowed, so I figured it's time to step up my straight part of the course acceleration. The motor's free, I only need a few parts to convert it to run in the wagon, and the axle will be fairly cheap doing it all at work.

Yes I want to come down to CA again this year. I'm really hoping to get the axle in and motor done in time to make it to the last Hotchkis/NMCA event this year. By next year I'd like to make it down for all of them pending travel expenses. Having gas drop off so much has been nice but I don't see that sticking around too long so we'll play it by ear. If I do come down, I'd like a ride along in the mighty Mopar!

[Tomswheels]

Ben, I will be at Fontana on the 29th this month. If you can work it in we would love to have you at a Qualcomm event, when we run the west lot some of the courses get big, and fun. Plus we CAM guys always have the BBQ going!

[72BBSwinger]

Tom your car makes a case in favor of an auto trans too IMO, not so on/off like a clutch car. Helps for un-dramatic transitions.

[Tomswheels]

I have an A833 OD in it now, Not that it matters much, cause I run every track in 2nd gear...

[72BBSwinger]

Ok your car used to make that case lol!

[cornfedbill]

Ben,

I think you need to calculate performance per person per run. So take your time, divide it by the number of seats, then multiply it by the number of seats in your competitors' cars.

So, if you run against an Evo, you would divide your time by 7 for the seats in your wagon and then multiply it by 4 to make it par with the 4-seat Evo.

Then your times will be correct.

[GrabberGT]

Ben,

I think you need to calculate performance per person per run. So take your time, divide it by the number of seats, then multiply it by the number of seats in your competitors' cars.

So, if you run against an Evo, you would divide your time by 7 for the seats in your wagon and then multiply it by 4 to make it par with the 4-seat Evo.

Then your times will be correct.

I think we found a replacement for PAX.

[SRD art]

Awesome response Bill!

Tom- can you get me more info on what you've got going on down there?

72BB- I run a TH350 auto in my car, and although as when the common "I have to have what everyone else has" disease started to set in when I first got into PT cars, at some point I decided to keep the auto instead of saving up for a T56. The auto works great, is easier to deal with, I can get consistent launches on the rare occasions I go drag racing, and I drive my car everyday so I have no problems sitting in traffic. I still down/up shift it for fast corners on the street and pretty much just leave it in 1st gear for most autocrosses. The next trans I build will have a manual valve body if I stick with the TH350. I haven't done much research yet but I think you can get a manual body for the 4LXX trans' too. My son is saving for a T56 for his wagon but honestly I don't envy him.

[badchry]

Ben, the best thing you can do is pick a couple of 'regulars' and/or a couple of 'pros' and compare times at each event. Try to get better at each event.

I ran the 4l60e with a MVB with 3.73 gears. It was a perfect setup for the Impala at autocross speeds. But if I were you, I would work on suspension setup and tires.

I never expected to win with the boat but I always had a blast going after them. And then finally I got my FTD...twice. Once at run thru the hills and another at a local event beating a couple of pros in a Miata and an M3. Those were good days ... :smoke:

[SSLance]

I much prefer a manual over an automatic on the autocross course. Having a direct connection between my right foot and the rear tires makes it easier for me to put just enough power down to maximize the grip without going over, it also is less of a power suck than the 200R4 was.

The slip of a torque converter causes a driver to adjust when they put the power down.

[PT Sportwagon]

In 89 when I autocross regularly I ran a lowered 2wd S-10 Blazer in H stock. And guess what I came in last every race. But I wound up placing 2nd in points for that season. It was all about having fun. FTD was always Woody Adams a retired USAF navigator who was in his 70s. He ran a highly modified Lotis super 7. He always showed us how to do it. but he was the nicest guy you ever met.
Last year at the Colorado Nationals GG Sunday autocross. A slightly modified Ford Focus ST got FTD. beating out big HP cars, vettes and 5gen camaros, to name a few. The owner is a regular at SCCA autocross and a law enforcement defensive driving instructor.

Tim