IFS Technology - No Limit Sniper IFS [Archive]

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 03:28 PM

As many of you are aware, we moved last year from So. Cal. to Dandridge Tn. (just outside of Knoxville) One large factor in the move was our desire to grow, beyond the choke hold of Ca. regulations and economics. And part of that growth will be aimed squarely at the 'Car' market. We've dominated the 'Truck' suspension market for many many years, and now that we have some extra room, we're going to start the push. As you would guess, our first offering will be for the Pro-Touring Icon, the First Gen Camaro.
While unknown to most, we have a lot of experience with the f-bodies. While in Ca. we worked on, installed, tuned, and repaired every IFS available for these cars, sorting them out, fixing geometry and fitment problems, and getting things to work, one by one. We gathered a lot of information, and took a lot of notes. We had built a few front subframes with our Wide-Ride IFS geometry, and while these were great drivers, and handled better than most, the 2.375" roll center is a bit high for a truly track worthy F-Body. (Great RC height for a C10, just ask Smitty) Shortly after our move last fall, a good friend and customer of ours fulfilled a dream of his and purchased the RideTech 'Velocity' Camaro. The car is gorgeous, and Keith's goal is to attend as many GoodGuys and USCA events as he can. We took the car to Scottsdale for the 2014 Shootout and I manages to qualify the car in , but was knocked out in the first round. The truth emerged, the eight year old car is still a looker, but not really competitive with today's crop of Pro-Touring muscle. After a few conversations, the fuel had hit the fire, and Kieth had convinced me that the First Gen Camaro should be our next development project.
What follows is a combination of 6 years of notes and sketches, over 300 hours of CAD work, an unknown amount of measuring, fitting and testing, and a lot of sleepless nights. The first thing we did was to talk to a lot of builders to see what problems the had with known subframes. Then we searched out an array of supporting components, so the the installs could be easily finished. Performance, safety and ride quality trumped all other concerns. Here was the Goal list:

1. Modern SuperCar performance and feel. To be worthy of the purchase and install, the new IFS must fundamentally change the driving experience of the car. The driver should feel confident and in control at all times.
2. A stronger platform. Todays builds can easily pass 600 hp with a crate motor. The suspension and subframe system must easily hold up to 1000 hp, AND add strength to the car as a whole.
3. Street manners, Track superiority. We must go to new ideas and technology to deliver a premium experience, worthy of a championship car and driver, yet comfortable on the Power Tour.
4. Safety First. With the trend of track days and racing events, Safety MUST be the top priority of design and component choice. At no time will a compromise of safety be allowed.
5. Component compatibility. Installers and users must be able to work with a variety of Off-the-shelf parts during the build. Headers, engine mounts, A/C and P/S pumps and brackets, oil pans,... At no time will we force a 'one item only' situation onto the user.
6. Braking solutions. We must design a system where in many aftermarket brake systems will bolt into place and perform, NOT forcing the user into a certain brand or size, but offering many solutions and options.
7. Value. We must deliver ALL of this in a package that fits within the current marketplace of F-Body suspension systems.

Sounds simple enough. And, I am happy to say, WE DID IT. If you been following our Facebook posts, you've seen the progress. We are now in production, and will be filling orders by the end of the month. Test driving and track testing has exceeded our goals, and we are very proud to introduce you to the No Limit Engineering "SNIPER IFS"

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 03:34 PM

Many long hours programming lead us a some new parts and design ideas. The result is the best suspension geometry we have ever built. The graphs are Bumpsteer, Side Scrub and Camber Gain.

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 03:39 PM

Bump Steer Graph. Yes, those are .000" values.

DJW32

03-09-2015, 04:02 PM

Rob,

When will you be releasing pics and price? Also, what kind of spindle is on the new sub?

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 04:13 PM

Camber Gain Graph. Smooth at first, and becomes very aggressive. Note that the camber gain is steep during compression, and much less during suspension droop.

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 04:41 PM

Here is the side scrub graph. I think it's important to note that the concept of "0" side scrub may not be ideal. Keeping the center of the tire's contact patch on the planned driving line is the goal. When the car is in a corner, the outside tire is pulled 'in' under the car, and the inside tire is pushed to 'out' from under the car. This amount of sidewall flex in the tire would be moving the contact patch away from it's intended patch. We can use Side Scrub, or Side Shift, to counter act the sidewall flex and keep the contact patch centered on it's path. - Side Shift is the second graph. Not sure why the Bump graph loaded again.

RobNoLimit

03-09-2015, 04:48 PM

Rob,

When will you be releasing pics and price? Also, what kind of spindle is on the new sub?

Yes, I'll be posting up picts and info for the next few days.

bmbrzmn101

03-09-2015, 06:28 PM

I have been following this on the fB page. That is some nice engineering and packaging. Definitely some outside the box thinking on it. Wishing I had my old firebird back.

Chris

RobNoLimit

03-10-2015, 06:11 AM

To change the driving impression, we had to think beyond the suspension geometry, shocks, springs, sway bars and such. We had to start at the beginning. The F-body design was penciled out in 1964, design and tooling was done through 1965, and production started in 1966. The forces in play on the car in those days were 300 hp, G-70-14 bias ply tires, and drum brakes. The engineers knew that the subframe would flex under these loads, so to save the rest of the unitized body from being torn apart, the sub was mounted in relatively soft rubber bushings. Through the years racers and builders added solid mounts, subframe connecters, cages, and front strut bars to help strengthen the platform of the car. While this helps, there is a down side. Most commonly we see solid subframe bushings and some type of bolt-in subframe connecter, and over time with today's forces of 500 hp, 200 TW tires and monster brakes the flex of the subframes slowly starts to tear the body of the car apart.
To deliver a premium experience that will last years and years, the subframe design itself must be stronger than the OE unit. The goal of reducing flex in the subframe and it's mounting points is now added to the list. Planning for a subframe connector and it's mounting is added, and a new design for the center section, A-arm, sway bar and rack mounts starts to take shape. Even the transmission crossmember is integrated into the design to help reduce flex.

Starting with the lower sub rails, the rear mount is sleeved and the mount eye is inset in 3/16" so that even solid mounts can't twist the rail. Thread inserts are welded to the inside of the sub rail for subframe connector mounting points. 'Through bolts' that pinch the subframe will loosen up over time and sleeving the sub rail would interfere with the body mount.

ace_xp2

03-10-2015, 10:59 AM

RobNoLimit

03-10-2015, 03:20 PM

So you've got scrub in on jounce? That means a below ground roll center though, how are you dealing with that? Or better question, how do you deal with the initial understeer provided by the roll axis you'll end up with on most solid axle equipped rears?

You'd have to see all of the geometry as a whole, not just one piece of the puzzle. The roll center at Ride Height is set at 1.120" (above ground) Ride height is spec at 4.750" to the bottom of the center crossmember. The lower arms are extremely long in comparison to other offerings, so roll center migration is very low. We have no problems with understeer, although, as you stated, the choice of rear suspension could have negative effects. Lowering the rear roll center into the range of 4" to 6" is common, at least for us. And with the understanding that for most of our style of track days and street driving, we are using tires with a 200+ TW rating, the lower RC is a big help. Glad to see that you thinking about the suspension in motion, as static views don't tell the whole story.

efs69

03-10-2015, 03:28 PM

RobNoLimit

03-10-2015, 03:47 PM

Rob,
That looks to be a really nice package. Looking at the FB page you can run 315's in the front. Is this with no mods to the inner fender well and outer fender? I
would imaginge clearance on a 69 camaro would be a bit better. Looking forward to seeing more info and package availability.

Yes, one of our build goals was to run a 315 tire with a stock fender. To be honest the inner fender has some clearance issues with the 315. The rear of the tire rubbs the lower edge of the inner at appx 28* of steering. The subframe is built to turn a full 32*. Also, depending on ride height, the inner edge of the tire will rub the top of the inner fender. We are working on a set of high clearance inner fenders to solve this and they should be available in glass or carbon in a few months. As for the Velocity Camaro, a few well placed strikes with a rubber mallet solved the problem. Total tread width was also a factor. As the front track becomes wider than the rear track, the car will naturally start to push (understeer). So while we were working out the details, we were trying to keep in mind matching this to a mini-tubbed car, which has a narrower track width (center tread to center tread) than an un-tubbed car.

ace_xp2

03-10-2015, 07:20 PM

RobNoLimit

03-11-2015, 05:16 AM

I didn't know there was any way to get side scrub to bring the tire in towards the vehicle without an IC (And so RC) height below ground, I mean you can change magnitude with arm length, but direction (scrubbing in or out) is dependent on IC position relative to the ground plane. Regardless, I like the dropped RC height, I'm really interested to see how that shakes out for people.

Sorry for the confusion. I must have mis-read the original comment. The side scrub is Positive (moving outward from the centerline of the car) during suspension compression, and Negative (moving inward to the centerline) during suspension droop.Here is the graph again, I tried to clean up the image so it is easier to see the scaling.

RobNoLimit

03-11-2015, 05:35 AM

As part of the rail construction, the physical fitment of other components is a key concern. The engine and trans are offset .750" to the passenger side. This was done to help with side to side weight balance, as well as steering clearance. The driver and passenger side rails are not 'mirror' images of each other. With the engine offset, portions of the passenger side rail had to be moved outboard to allow clearance for headers, and A/C compressors (in the low LS mount location). The nice thing about this level of advanced planning is that we know what Headers, A/C pumps and mounts, P/S pumps and mounts, Oil pans and such will fit in with no problems.

Inside the rails we incorporated tabbed spacers to help set the rail width and shape. These spacers, welded in to place also help to add rigidity to the rails, helping to reduce the flex of the subframe. The shape of the rail is also a deviation from the OE design. With no steering box, there is no need for the subframe to rise up just ahead of the firewall mount. The Sniper IFS rail makes a smooth rise up toward the suspension area. The smoother shape also adds strength, and saves weight. The rails are also pulled 'in' in the tire well area, allowing a 315 tire to fit in a stock fender, and still retain the 32* turn angle.

Rod

03-11-2015, 12:29 PM

excited about this one!!

RobNoLimit

03-11-2015, 02:37 PM

During the last few years we've done a fair amount of racing and Track days. It is key to remember that we are not building 'race' cars, many are drivin to and from the events, to shows and to get a burger. Street duty can be tougher on a car than a groomed track, and honestly, some of the tracks aren't that great. Lately, in the last few years, as speeds increase along with braking loads and tire technology, we've seen some parts fail. Spindle flex, brake fade and knock-back, spindle failure, bearing and ball joint failure....... Any of these can take the fun out of the weekend in a hurry. We also paid close attention to the amount of tinkering and tuning some guys want to try. - And some don't.

It was for these reasons that we made some of our component choices.

The ball joints are both Chrysler screw in type. #K727 lower and #K772 upper. The lower can be seen in the picture next to an OE 1rst Gen Camaro ball joint. These are a huge improvement in strength and service. The screw in ball joints can be changed without removing the A-arms. Also, the Racing Aftermarket has a wide selection of Taller, Low-friction, Adjustable, and Mono-Ball replacements. So you can tinker away to your hearts content.

The Bearing choice was really a spindle choice. As much as we have witnessed braking problems due to spindle flex, and seen some scary moments due to bearing failure, we went BIG. To get what we wanted in a total package took some doing. With a custom built modular spindle and a new designed billit hub we were able to package what we wanted, and use off-the-shelf consumables. The three bearings in the picture are A-3, large GM outer, it has an 1130 lb. load rate. Next is an A-6, GM inner, such as 2nd Gen Camaro, with a 2360 lb. load rate. On the right is the Timken 368A, with a load rate of 5930 lbs. This is the bearing we are using for both the inner and outer bearings. Yes, total bearing load rate of the front hub is 11,860 lbs. Properly maintained and adjusted, these will never fail.

RobNoLimit

03-11-2015, 03:06 PM

Ok, I know what your thinking. "what kind of spindle uses a giant bearing like that?" Well, a real race car spindle does. We worked with Coleman Racing to get a short snout version of their 5x5 spindle. These have 7 degrees of SAI (or KPI if you like that term) The steering arm was custom built to our spec with the rack we are using. These spindles weigh in at 7 lbs 3 oz. less than half the weight of a 1rst or 2nd gen spindle. total spindle height is set at 10.850", that's ball joint center to ball joint center, so it's easy to get this deep into the wheel with no clearance issues.

DJW32

03-11-2015, 03:10 PM

Rob,
This is very interesting. Keep the updates coming.

Nothingface5384

03-11-2015, 03:24 PM

looks awesome and very promising
are their plans down the line for a A body kit?

carbuff

03-11-2015, 06:48 PM

The engine and trans are offset .750" to the passenger side. This was done to help with side to side weight balance, as well as steering clearance.

Rob,

I'm curious how this affected transmission clearance to the tunnel? Or do you expect there to be some tunnel mods with this setup? I know 3/4" isn't much, but those T56 Magnums are a pretty tight fit in these old cars. :)

DJW32

03-12-2015, 04:32 AM

Rob,
What brakes is velocity running on the new sub?

RobNoLimit

03-12-2015, 05:05 AM

looks awesome and very promising
are their plans down the line for a A body kit?

We have looked into that. At the moment we are busy with 1rst and 2nd gen F-body subs. While the suspension geometry and components are adaptable to the A-body, the subframe design is not. This would require a new front sub assembly that would have to be installed onto the chassis. So there's the catch. How many A-body owners would be willing (and able) to cut off the front of their chassis, say just behind the OE steering box mount, and fit up and weld on a new front section? Now for reference, we make a front snout for 49-51 Mercs with our Wide-Ride IFS, and these guys don't think twice about getting out the sawzall. I also personally think that a clean 66/67 Chevelle with 315's on all corners, updated suspension and brakes, LSX and 6 speed would be a great Power Tour or One-Lap car. But the big question is, would enough guys do it?

RobNoLimit

03-12-2015, 05:10 AM

Rob,

I'm curious how this affected transmission clearance to the tunnel? Or do you expect there to be some tunnel mods with this setup? I know 3/4" isn't much, but those T56 Magnums are a pretty tight fit in these old cars. :)

Fair question. If I had it my way, without restrictions, I would have pushed it over another 1/2". But, then there would be fitment trouble. We really worked hard to make this a true bolt-in fit to the OE platform. The Driver and Passenger side sub rails are different shape to allow clearance for the A/C compressor and headers with the eng/trans offset. in the Picture is the underside of the Velocity Camaro, and it has a T56 6-speed. There are no fitment issues. There is at least 3/4" at the tightest spots.

RobNoLimit

03-12-2015, 05:22 AM

Rob,
What brakes is velocity running on the new sub?

We chose to re-use the 14" 6P Baer brakes that were on the OE spindles before. With the new spindle and hub design, it is very easy for us to match up a variety of rotors and calipers. We already have mount kits for Baer 14" 6P, Wilwood 13" 4P and 6P, and Brakeman 13" wave rotor with 4P. The rotor adapter is machined to interlock onto the hub so that the hardware isn't taking the brake load. One set of rotor adapters (your choice) is included with the IFS, the caliper mounts are additional, and range from $195 to $245 per pair (one pair per car) This makes the brake addition to the suspension a lot more affordable.

For example :
Wilwood 14" x 1.25 Spec 37 rotor #160-12341/2-bk $329 each
Wilwood Forged 6P Superlite, Radial mount #120-13236/5 $278 each
Wilwood E pads, 15E-6084K $109 set
No Limit caliper mount set $229

So for $1552 =/- you have 14" 6 piston brakes with good pads. That's a good deal compares to the $2200 upgrade price of most other subframe assemblies.

dhutton

03-12-2015, 06:46 AM

srh3trinity

03-12-2015, 09:58 AM

I like the fact that you essentially started from scratch on the design and that you planned ahead for brakes and headers, etc.

DJW32

03-12-2015, 01:12 PM

Rob,
Thanks for the brake info.

Are there any plans for sub frame connectors?

carbuff

03-12-2015, 07:27 PM

Fair question. If I had it my way, without restrictions, I would have pushed it over another 1/2". But, then there would be fitment trouble. We really worked hard to make this a true bolt-in fit to the OE platform. The Driver and Passenger side sub rails are different shape to allow clearance for the A/C compressor and headers with the eng/trans offset. in the Picture is the underside of the Velocity Camaro, and it has a T56 6-speed. There are no fitment issues. There is at least 3/4" at the tightest spots.

Sounds good to me. Have you already built/prototyped a second gen yet? I don't remember exactly, but I know the tunnel in my Firebird is a pretty tight fit as it is, and we also cut and raised it almost 2". The 1st gen has a more squared-off top to the tunnel as I recall while the second gen is more rounded. So I'll be curious to hear how well the motor shift works on the second gen.

I look forward to reading more info. Thanx!

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 05:12 AM

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 05:13 AM

I like the fact that you essentially started from scratch on the design and that you planned ahead for brakes and headers, etc.

Thanks Stephen. We even made room for the OE Camaro LS oil pan. No need to pay for a "swap" pan.

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 05:25 AM

Rob,
Thanks for the brake info.

Are there any plans for sub frame connectors?

The easy answer is yes. We did incorporate thread inserts to positively mount subframe connectors, so that part is done. Now, while we have built a few of these subs and been road testing and driving them, we have not yet finished our rear suspension packages. At the moment, we are leaning towards a weld-in subframe connector that will include a new front leaf pocket with a set of sleeved front eye mount sockets (no more removing the pocket to get the spring or link bolt out). Once welded in place these would use a small bolt in section to connect to the front subframe (with this approach the subframe connector can be used with most other front and rear suspensions) We are also planning in a set of outriggers to tie into the cage hoop area, and a fitted weld in cross support for seat belt/harness mounts and a driveshaft loop. While this may be more involved and require some cutting and welding (nothing more than a mini-tubb install) we believe this will be critical to delivering true a Supercar experience.

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 05:27 AM

Sounds good to me. Have you already built/prototyped a second gen yet? I don't remember exactly, but I know the tunnel in my Firebird is a pretty tight fit as it is, and we also cut and raised it almost 2". The 1st gen has a more squared-off top to the tunnel as I recall while the second gen is more rounded. So I'll be curious to hear how well the motor shift works on the second gen.

I look forward to reading more info. Thanx!

We are currently working on the final fittment for 2nd gen subs. Yes the tunnel is a bit tighter, and so it looks like a little reshaping will still be needed. - At least for the larger case transmissions.

Ron Sutton

03-13-2015, 06:29 AM

It's amazing to see these new F body subframes coming out. I thought this segment was pretty much done evolving several years ago. Interesting to see where they are heading and how and if the competition counters.

Don

Thanks Don. We're excited to see what the next level can do. I think it's cool that Blake (SpeedTech) and Ron Sutton are working together on a new sub/suspension design as well. Ron and I have had some great conversations over the years and when it comes to suspension performance we share many of the same ideas. It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how these new designs stack up against the current crop. I'm hoping Blake gets one underway and can possibly make the trip out to Columbus later this year, it would be cool to see the new designs together.

I agree Don. It did seem the front clip designs had become stagnant. Then Speedtech & No Limit commit the time, work & $$$ to take it to another level. It's pretty cool.

Rob! Congrats on the new project! You coming out West for any events this year? I will be coming out East for a few events ... Goodguys PPG Nationals, Ohio in July, the Holley LS Fest in Sept & the Goodguys Lone Star Nationals in October. We need to have a beer & catch up.

:cheers:

ccmc

03-13-2015, 06:57 AM

Has pricing been determined yet?

DJW32

03-13-2015, 07:32 AM

Has pricing been determined yet?

I agree. I'm curious.

Also, what rear suspension are you working on... Torque arm with watts link, 3 link??

Have you tested the tbm brakes? I've read plenty of info about them, but I have not seen feedback from any users.

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 08:25 AM

I agree Don. It did seem the front clip designs had become stagnant. Then Speedtech & No Limit commit the time, work & $$$ to take it to another level. It's pretty cool.

Rob! Congrats on the new project! You coming out West for any events this year? I will be coming out East for a few events ... Goodguys PPG Nationals, Ohio in July, the Holley LS Fest in Sept & the Goodguys Lone Star Nationals in October. We need to have a beer & catch up.

:cheers:

With the move and everything going on, I don't see a West Coast trip until SEMA. Will will be in Tx next weekend, and Keith and Velocity will be in Tx for the USCA the following weekend. He was planning on taking the car to Tx, But managed to get in on a last chance bid to the NCM event/school that same weekend. So, we'll be in Columbus and at the LS fest. See ya there.

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 08:28 AM

Has pricing been determined yet?

The final number is not yet set, as we are waiting on package pricing for hardware and a few odds and ends. I can tell you that it will be right in line with the other offerings out there, in the $7100 - $7200 range.

RobNoLimit

03-13-2015, 08:51 AM

I agree. I'm curious.

Also, what rear suspension are you working on... Torque arm with watts link, 3 link??

Have you tested the tbm brakes? I've read plenty of info about them, but I have not seen feedback from any users.

1. The rear suspension we are working on is a 3-link and panhard. The coil-overs and sway bar will be mounted in the trunk, and drivin via a pushrod and rocker assembly. The rear seat can go back in, but the base cushion needs a bit of re-working to fit. We know there will be some work involved to install this type of suspension system, but it takes no more skills than to install mini tubbs or replace a trunk pan. And, it will work!

2. TBM brakes. I have run their 4 piston caliper for two seasons now on the Hellboy C10, and I love them. We have used every aftermarket brake set that you can think of, and I think that the TBM caliper may be the most effecient. Over the years we have performed this simple test on brake sets. Pull of the wheel/tire. Screw in a brake pressure guage into the bleed port. Set a large (12") dial caliper over the center of the brake caliper (across the caliper inside to outside) and snug it up and note the width. Push on the brake pedal until you get 750 lbs of line pressure (or as high as you can get if it system won't get to 750). Then note the new measurement on the dial calipers and do the math to se how much the caliper flexed. We have measured some calipers to have as much as .100" flex!!! At this rate less than 50% of the pad is doing any work. We have tested the TBM calipers on the truck many times, and the most we could measure is .008" @ 1000psi.

The set we like from them is a 13" wave rotor at .810" thick. Gas slotted but not drilled. 4 Pistom caliper and a good set of pads. BP-30, E-pads, TBM-3S, or Hawk. This caliper uses the same pad as a Wilwood superlite 4P, which is the circle track racers favorite, so there are many many pads to choose from. This set up will run appx $1575.

Wes Drelleshack runs TBM on his Apache, and the guys at Dueces Wild in Filmore use them on everything they build. You can see them in Pomona this weekend at the Street Machine nats.

RobNoLimit

03-14-2015, 09:33 AM

A big part of our goal is drive quality, and there are many parts to that. Ground clearance and wheel clearance are big factors. Wheel and tire clearance can be unsettling to say the least. If you turn the wheel sharp on an Auto-x course and hear the tire rub, it's bound to throw you off, and next time around you won't enter the corner so hot. No matter if the car can handle it. We noticed that when most F-body's have enough caster to make them turn, the tire is in the back of the wheel opening. We used some pretty cool digital measuring equipment to model up the fender area in 3d, then put it in to 2d layers, and then set the position of the suspension components to accurately center the wheel at all times.

On the underside we paid close attention to the scrub line. If you looked over the pictures from the OUSCI last year, you would have seen a number of pictures (Rodney) showing 1rst and 2nd gen Camaros throwing sparks out from underneath. Usually that was Headers and Oil-pans. We shaped the subframe crossmembers so that the oil pans (stock depth) would be protected by the lower crossmember skid plate. For LS swaps, the OE camaro pan will fit. Then we tested headers to find some that didn't hang down as well. Bump stops were added to stop the subframe from ever dragging the pavement.

The headers in the picts are Dougs #d333. We also tested the StainlessWorks 2nd gen ls header. It looks like most headers built for a 2nd gen will fit.

RobNoLimit

03-15-2015, 09:59 AM

OK, lots of questions about how the car sits, tire size, backspace, ride height.....so here goes.
Of coarse, ride height is adjustable, but within a range. Then, tire height comes in to play.

We mounted up 315/30/18 Falken tires on 18 x 11 rims. Spec tire height is 25.4, but honestly, with 25 psi they measure at 24 7/8".
With this tire the spindle pin CL is 12.25".

For this suspension design, we want the spindle pin to be in a range of 7.25" to 8" above the bottom plate of the subframe. That's the sweet spot. Right now, Velocity is sitting at 7 3/8" from the spindle CL to the sub plate. So with a 315 tire, the bottom of the subframe is 4 7/8" off the ground. The range would be 4 1/4" to 5" at RH with this tire.

At the 4 7/8" sub plate height, the top of the wheel arch is 23 7/8", covering about 1" of the top of the tire. And the bottom of the rocker, behind the front wheel opening, is at 7 1/4".

** We are using a solid body mount kit that was on the car when we started, these measure out to be appx 3/8" shorter than the OE mounts. **

We had the car sitting about a 1/2" lower and it looked sweet, but until we get a set of inner fenders with more room, this RH is more reasonable.

Backspace on the wheel, 18 x 11 is 8 1/4". For narrower wheels, take the width off of the inside. As an example, an 18 x 9 wheel would need 6 1/4" backspace.

Nothingface5384

03-15-2015, 01:02 PM

We have looked into that. At the moment we are busy with 1rst and 2nd gen F-body subs. While the suspension geometry and components are adaptable to the A-body, the subframe design is not. This would require a new front sub assembly that would have to be installed onto the chassis. So there's the catch. How many A-body owners would be willing (and able) to cut off the front of their chassis, say just behind the OE steering box mount, and fit up and weld on a new front section? Now for reference, we make a front snout for 49-51 Mercs with our Wide-Ride IFS, and these guys don't think twice about getting out the sawzall. I also personally think that a clean 66/67 Chevelle with 315's on all corners, updated suspension and brakes, LSX and 6 speed would be a great Power Tour or One-Lap car. But the big question is, would enough guys do it?
if ots priced right, i dont think cutting and welding up a section of tje frame would be a big deal

RobNoLimit

03-18-2015, 05:30 AM

One of the keys to the packaging, allowing us to set the scrub radius in the desired range, was the Hub design. Due to the bearing and spindle snout they don't look like any other hub, with the outer bearing set 'inside' the hub face. The 2" I.D. bearings on the short snout spindle provide more than 400% more stability as compared to the common "A" or "F" body spindle and bearing. This huge reduction in spindle and hub flex/distortion leads to superior brake feel, reduced pad knock-back, lower rolling resistance, and improved driver feel.

From the hub to the rotor, we machined an interlocking step into the rotor adapter. This step put the brake load into the hub through the machined interlock rather than through the mounting bolts alone. The rotor adapter shown has two rotor mount patters, 12 x 8.75" (Wilwood) and 12 x 8.5" (Baer). We also have a rotor adapter available with an 8 x 7" (TBM and Wilwood) and 8 x 7.5" (Speedway)

The spindle nut is a "True-Lock" unit, with a threaded thrust washer and billit locking nut. This assembly allows precise load settings with the ability to be locked every 7.5 degrees of rotation of the spindle nut. As compared to every 60 degrees of the common castle nut and cotter pin.

On the back side, the hub is machined with only .001" interference fit for the grease seal. This fit provides a snug but easy press for the grease seal into the hub. A snap ring is then used to secure the grease seal. For bearing service, this allows you to remove the snap ring and push the seal out with the inner bearing. The you can service and re-pack the bearing and re-install the seal.

andrewb70

03-18-2015, 06:42 AM

I am digging what you're saying about the bigger bearings. There is a reason that Koenigsegg uses helicopter tail shaft rotor bearings on the front of their cars.

Andrew

DJW32

03-22-2015, 11:21 AM

Rob,
Will you be adding down bars to the existing cage/front sub? also, how much does the front sub weigh?

RobNoLimit

03-24-2015, 05:15 AM

Rob,
Will you be adding down bars to the existing cage/front sub? also, how much does the front sub weigh?

We will be adding a 3-bolt mounting ringon each front rail top to receive a down tube. We may offer bolt-in down tubes in the future.

I'm going to post up a build series of the sub, them the weights and specs. - some lighter, some heavier.

RobNoLimit

03-24-2015, 05:30 AM

Constructing the subframe to achieve all of the goals meant doing things different. Bent and sectioned rails wouldn't fit in, formed rails flex too much, so an integrated set of parts is needed. Four different material thicknesses are used in the subframe. 3/16" is used for the lower sub-plate, rack mount plate and LCA mounts. 8ga. (.164") is used for the outer rails, main cross ribs, rear inner rails, LCA bracing and UCA mounts. 10ga. (.135") is used on the forward inner rails, rail tops and cross rib bracing. 11ga (.120") is used on the rail bottoms and sub caps and covers.

The set of parts here is for one subframe, and a few parts are not shown. It takes 87 different pieces to build one subframe.

The built table is laid out with locating holes, and using milled spacers the rear rails and sub plate are bolted to the table. The LCA mounts and rack mount plate are set in place on a different fixture. Every piece fits together with locating tabs and sockets. The clearance for each tab/socket is .005". This type of construction helps to keep the assembly accurate.

RobNoLimit

03-24-2015, 05:37 AM

The big pieces go on next. The cross ribs which include the upper coil over mounts and the engine mount locators drop into the sub plate with indexed tabs. Then its the outer and inner rail sections. The rails are spaced using blockers, which are tabbed in to the outer and inner rails, and to the cross ribs. The interlocking assembly helps to force the components into the correct alignment. Machined cross spacers help to hold the rail width. All of the internal blockers and spacers will be welded from the inside and stay in the subframe. These parts are essential an reducing subframe flex.
The larger cross tube, the furthest forward, is temporary. It is in place of the sway bar, and is set in place to keep the sway bar mount locations true. Different material will be used here in the final assembly.

RobNoLimit

03-24-2015, 05:49 AM

The rail tops including the front sub mount are installed next, and more welding starts. Then the front inner rails, mid mounts, and the bracing for the rear LCA mounts. Welding is kept to specific areas to limit distortion. At this point there are 18 locators holding the subframe in place. - not to mention all of the interlocking parts of the sub itself.

RobNoLimit

03-24-2015, 01:00 PM

At this point with some of the welding done we move back to the front side of the sub. A formed brace is added between the front LCA mounts, and then trussed out to the rails. The tubing that was in place to center the Sway bar pivots is removed, and short pieces of DOM are inserted. The tubes will be T.I.G. welded and sanded flush. The secondary front rib is put in next. It may not look like much, but this rib added a ton of rigidity to the sub.

Kenova

03-24-2015, 06:09 PM

Will you be offering a "weld it yourself" kit?
:lmao::lmao:

Ken

nicks67camaro

03-25-2015, 05:27 AM

Wow looks awesome. Hard choices ahead for which aftermarket sub to use.

RobNoLimit

03-25-2015, 06:28 AM

Will you be offering a "weld it yourself" kit?

Ha, the table might be more than the crossmember.

Wow looks awesome. Hard choices ahead for which aftermarket sub to use.

Thanks nick

RobNoLimit

03-25-2015, 06:32 AM

The UCA mount integrate with the cross ribs and the rail tops. That makes the placement easy. A small notch marks the assembly center line. The interlock with the cross ribs sets the width. Once the UCA mount is in place the ends are gusseted to the rail top. Internal gussets are added to the cross ribs in the motor mount area and to close out the upper shock mount. Then the welding starts.

RobNoLimit

03-27-2015, 05:05 AM

Finally, a fixture is used to set the motor mount tubes. From the OE position they are the same elevation, 1" back and 3/4" to the passenger side. The trans mount is also offset to the passenger side. Driveline angle is set at 3 degrees. This mount set will accept LSX, SBC, and BBC. "Stock Position" adapter plates are needed for LSX installations. The trans crossmember and slide plate mounts will adjust enough for TH-350 on the short end to T-56 on the long side. Then the cart is rolled over to a T.I.G. station and the rail blocks, spacers and sway bar mount tubes are welded in place. After it cools off overnight, the sub is pulled from the surface plate and the bottom side of the rails will be capped.

dhutton

03-27-2015, 05:28 AM

RobNoLimit

03-27-2015, 08:42 AM

I had a chance to take these today, so I thought I would share this with you. This is a 69 Camaro with a stock sub (modified) and the usual aftermarket upgrades. With the current geometry and wheel and tire combo there is appx 3 1/4" of scrub radius. So how does that affect the suspension? Well, take a look. As the wheel turns in or out, the contact patch of the tire is being pushed forward, or pulled back. First, this action is at a different rate than the tire is rolling and forces the tire to 'drag' against the pavement, and makes the contact patch "un-happy" - loss of traction. Second, from the pictures it is easy to see that the wheelbase is changing. The outside tire is moving forward, making the wheelbase longer. On the inside of the car, the wheelbase is getting shorter. This changing of the wheelbase takes mechanical load off of the outside front tire and allows the tire to 'skip' on the pavement. or, "Push".

Looking at these pictures helps to understand why Scrub Radius is so important to a true performance suspension design.

RobNoLimit

03-27-2015, 08:43 AM

What accessory drive options is this being designed for? Will it be limited to a few aftermarket versions and exclude any factory versions? Factory LSA might be one to consider since aftermarket versions are limited to Concept1 as far as I know. Factory LS9 is another one for the Stielow wannabe's.... :>)

Don

Don, i'm working on a complete list (or as complete as I can make it) of compatable drives. We did get most of the OE assemblies to fit.

lxss350

03-27-2015, 09:21 AM

What steering rack are you using with this subframe?

Rod

03-27-2015, 09:40 AM

RobNoLimit

03-30-2015, 12:37 PM

We do a flex test on all chassis and subframe designs. This allows us to compare our chassis and subs with the OE units and with others in the marketplace. Our test is pretty simple, and we use this as a standard, so it's always done the same way.

When you think about the subframe it really does three jobs. 1.- It locates all of the front suspension and steering components as well as transfers all suspension travel and brake forces to the rest of the car. 2.- It holds the motor and trans in place, and transfers the torque forces from the drive train to the rest of the car. and 3.- The subframe holds the front of the car in place with the rest of the car. If the subframe is flexing, it can change many factors in the car. Some of these are, effective spring rate, total roll stiffness, sway bar rate, steering position, Engine torque response..... These are all performance related. Sub flex can also change the alignment of the front sheet metal, hood, and front sheet metal. This flexing of the sheet metal can also relate to the driver experience as it can produce noise and rattles. The OE (Chevrolet) new that the sub would flex, so they mounted it with rubber bushings. Now, we like to use harder urethane or solid mounts to eliminate the flex, but over a long period (not too long really) these harder mounts will put more force into the uni-body mount pads, and start to destroy them. - I have repaired many. As part of the subframe design plan, we wanted to reduce the flex. More performance, better driver feel and road manners, and a car that won't self destruct. We cant stop the flex, but we can reduce it.

As I said our test is simple. We hold the sub at three points, and then apply a load. The load is in two steps. First is a 10 ft section of 2" x 3" .120 wall tubing (the arm). This alone weighs 40 lbs and will put appx 200 lbs of force on the sub to twist. Then we hang 100lbs. (bucket full of steel scrap) on the end of the arm. This is appx 1000 lbs of load force. (I know, this is not the true number through the centerline. No reason to write in. This is for comparison only. We're not NASA)

RobNoLimit

03-30-2015, 12:53 PM

When we do this, we measure in three sets, both in degrees and in 'fall' in inches. The first is to check the sub itself, in degrees, swapping the support post from side to side. (this shows sub flex alone) Then when the arm is on, we check in degrees and inches. Lastly, with the 100 lb weight, we check in degrees and inches on 'fall'.

Results
O.E. Sub
Sub flex empty L/R = 0.90 degrees (neutral @ .50 degrees)
With arm only = 1.10 degrees Bar end = 48.5"
With 100lbs. = 4.50 degrees Bar end = 38.25" (10.25" of fall)

Sniper Sub
Sub Flex empty L/R = .060 degrees (neutral @ .30 degrees)
With arm only = .70 degrees Bar end = 49.25"
With 100lbs. = 2.80 degrees Bar end = 43.5" (5.75" of fall)

While we have tested others, it's not for us say the results. You can try these out on any sub and duplicate the test procedure for yourself. This flex may not bother a drag racer, where the weight is a bigger factor, but for a Pro-Touring track ready driver, it may make all the difference.

RobNoLimit

03-30-2015, 01:56 PM

We have been asked about the weight. While there are some factors in comparing, like brake steering and shock choice, here is a basic rundown. The O.E. components we weighed were from a stock 68 with disc brakes. I have also make some notes as to sprung-or-unsprung weight, and rotating weight.

O.E.
Subframe with motor mounts and trans crossmember ....... 125 ....... sprung
Steering box, pitman arm and center link ....... 34 ....... sprung
Sway bar 3/4" ....... 13 ....... 3/4 sprung
Tie rods ....... 7 lbs each ....... 14 ....... 1/2 spung
UCA ....... 9.4 lbs each ....... 18.8 ....... 1/2 sprung
LCA ....... 13.5 each ....... 27 ....... 1/2 sprung
Spring ....... 14 each ....... 28 ....... 1/2 sprung
shock ....... 2.2 each ....... 4.4 ....... 1/2 sprung
Spindle with steering arm ....... 16.6 each ....... 33.2 ....... un-sprung
Brake assembly ....... 23 each ....... 46 ....... unsprung-rotating
Total wt = 343.4 lbs, with 128.55lbs of un-sprung wt, 46 lbs of rotating wt.

Sniper IFS
Subframe with motor mounts and trans crossmember ....... 152 ....... sprung
Rack and pinion ....... 14 ....... sprung
Sway bar ....... 1 1/4" splined w/steel arm ....... 18.5 ....... 3/4 sprung
Tie rods ....... 1.2 lbs each ....... 2.4 ....... 1/2 sprung
UCA ....... 7.1 lbs each ....... 14.2 ....... 1/2 sprung
LCA ....... 10.5 each ....... 21 ....... 1/2 sprung
Coil-over ....... 6.1 each ....... 12.2....... 1/2 sprung
Spindle with steering arm ....... 9.3 each ....... 18.6 ....... un-sprung
Hub and brake assembly - Baer 14" 6p ....... 18.1 each ....... 36.2 ....... un-sprung, rotating
Total wt = 288.9. Unsprung wt = 84.3 with 36.2 lbs rotating.

While the subframe itself is heavier, the total assembly is lighter. More importantly is the reduction of unsprung weight and rotating weight. Yes, the percentage of unsprung and rotating weight is not perfect. The UCA and LCA are heavier to the 'sprung' side due to the cross shaft and bushings. The coil-overs are mounted 'can-up' to reduce unsprung wt as well. Also the caliper should be sorted out of the 'rotating' wt number. But you get the idea. Dare to compare!

eric1967

03-30-2015, 04:17 PM

Looks good Rob. I like those long lower arms. This should be a killer setup.

another69

03-30-2015, 04:18 PM

RobNoLimit

03-31-2015, 06:11 AM

I am very excited about another subframe in the market and especially the direction that this one is headed. I always assumed that the subframe was the strongest part of 1st gens but it sounds like it is actually weaker (or at least less stiff) than the unibody?

I like the idea of a wider track width. How much wider than stock is this one?

I'm not sure it's weaker, but the flex can be damaging. OE track was 58.7" (this is the hub face to hub face, or WMS/WMS) Our IFS is 60". 1.3" wider, or .65" per side.

RobNoLimit

03-31-2015, 06:36 AM

At last weekend's USCA event in Texas, Keith (Velocity's owner) was there to compete in the car for the first time. The weather was good and they all got plenty of runs and lap time. This car has been sitting for about six years, and we addressed mostly suspension upgrades so far. Here is a run down to give you an idea about the car.
This car was built to showcase RideTech Shockwaves and air suspension. We removed the Air components and replaced them with RideTech coil-overs. The rear suspension is a RideTech 4-bar. 9" Ford with Baer brakes. - Not sure of the gear ratio or posi unit type. Front suspension is our new Sniper IFS with RideTech coil-overs. We re-used the Baer rotors and calipers. The LS makes good power (est. 450hp) and it had a t-56 trans. - clutch unknown. Wheels are currently mis-matched (working on that) and we put on a set of used Falken 615 tires. 315/30/18 on all four corners. We had little time to test/tune and decided to leave a base alignment in the car so that it would be easier for Keith to get used to. Camber = -.5, Caster = +7.5, toe is 'in' 1/16". The IFS has 7 degree spindles. Street manners are great, one finger on the freeway, or no hands, rolls smooth and straight. For a track day, I would normally set the alignment as follows: Camber = -.8, Caster = +8.5, and toe 'out' 3/16". These subtle changes can make a big difference, but we didn't want to get ahead of ourselves.

Keith reports having a great time. The field was full with 76 entries. 18 in the GTV class. he placed well for the first time out.
Auto-X.................8th with a 46.702 lap....................27th over all
Speed Stop..........9th with a 11.167 run....................40th over all
Hot Lap ..............6th with a 44.934 lap ...................31rst over all
Design.................4th with 20.533 points
Overall GTV finish was 6th place.
Not bad out of 18 in the GTV class.
The biggest complaint was the brakes. Inconsistent feel and a low and soft pedal. We do not know what pads are on the car. The calipers use C5 front pads, my guess is these are the OE pads from the build. They will be going. Also, the master may be done. No big deal there either.
- If your headed to Raliegh N.C. for the GoodGuys event, come and check it out. Keith will be there, and hopefully we'll have V a bit more sorted.

RobNoLimit

03-31-2015, 12:29 PM

Here is a finished subframe, powder-coated and ready to install. We will be starting the install in a few days. During the install we will show detailed picts and info on each component, and the install procedure. We are also starting a build thread on our house car, a fair-to-rough 68 that we acquired. The car has been nick-named "the Roach". Sad, but it is what it is, at least it will be a lot of fun.

Notice from the side view pict that the upper control arm mount has a pretty good rake. 10.6 degrees. One reason for the splayed lower arm is to get the motion of the lower ball joint to track the upper ball joint, so that we can minimize the caster gain, and still keep a big Anti-Dive angle. The Anti-Dive helps to keep the front suspension from compressing under hard braking. Keeping more brake load on the rear, and allowing the front shock compression to be tuned more for corner entry, and less for brake dive control.

DJW32

03-31-2015, 12:54 PM

Rob,

Again, this looks great. Have you test fit a 4L80E in the new sub? If so, is there any cleared everything issues?

cwylie

03-31-2015, 01:01 PM

I want one!

RobNoLimit

04-01-2015, 04:59 AM

Rob,

Again, this looks great. Have you test fit a 4L80E in the new sub? If so, is there any cleared everything issues?

As far as clearing the sub, no problem. The trans mount will move enough to got from a 'Glide out to L480E, even 6L90E and T-56. The OE tunnel, well that's another story. Expect to do some sheet metal manipulation for the big gear boxes.

RobNoLimit

04-03-2015, 07:56 AM

On the quest for a superior driving experience, and cutting edge performance, the Rack and Pinion choice was a big deal. Standard racks in use today (Mustang II, T-Bird, 'Vette) have an inner pivot width of 22" to 25", for our purposes, this is way too wide. We were looking for something in the 18" range. We worked with both Coleman Racing and Sweet Manufacturing to get exactly what we wanted. There was a lot to learn about these style of rack and pinions.

The ratios are set in "inches of travel" per one rotation of the steering wheel. These racks are available from 1 1/2" to 3" per rotation. The rack shaft on the Coleman racks are "Square" shafts, and the rack body's are machined with a square bed for the rack to travel in. This has a big advantage over a round shaft rack, round shaft racks can rotate slightly, and change the steering position, where as the square shaft racks do not.

Next is the power input servo. These control the amount of power assist, and how quickly in adds in the 'turn-in'. The servo's are controlled with an internal torsion bar. Torsion bar rates range from .185" dia. (lots of initial assist) to .280" (minimal initial assist).

Last is the slave cylinder. These are available from 1" dia. up to 1 1/2" dia. The larger the diameter, the more assist across the entire steering range.

It took a lot of math, and then a lot of trail and error to get the right combo. To easily steer a car with a 315 front tire in a parking lot, Navigate the tight U-Turns of a Goodguys coarse, and have a smooth controlled feel at high speed. All of this is achievable without using a specialized aftermarket pump. The normal GM Type-II pump is just fine. The larger piston volumes mean lower operating pressure, so cavitating, frothing, and over-heating is not a problem either. With the rack sitting in place in the subframe, the reason for the shape of the lower crossmember is clear.

RobNoLimit

04-03-2015, 08:02 AM

test

RobNoLimit

04-09-2015, 05:08 AM

We have had a lot of questions about brake choice and sizes. One of our goals is to provide the answers needed to help the builder finish the project. There are a ton of un-answered questions when doing a swap like this, and any one of them can stall the project. Being able to supply the needed information will help get the car done and on the road.

The Sniper spindle and hub are vastly different from anything else, and so it is up to us to provide some assistance in mounting brakes. We currently have matched up parts from Wilwood and TBM (we have done a Baer swap but don't have all of the part # information ready yet) The IFS comes with the Hub and we provide the rotor adapter, but we need to know which rotor mount pattern to provide. There are three common patterns. 8 x 7", 12 x 8.5", and 12 x 8.75". Here is the information we have currently to help with brake choice.

RobNoLimit

04-13-2015, 09:05 AM

From a design/tuning standpoint the method of aligning the suspension will determined the type of upper control arm. So, there are a few choices.

1. Fixed Arm. This is the most common, and cost effective. These align with shims, cams or sliders. With this type of an arm, the length does not change. But, when the alignment is changed, the location of the pivot points of the upper arm also change. So, the rate of camber gain stays constant, but the steering relationships (bumpsteer) changes. Remember that in changing the alignment, the goal is to change the angle of the spindle.

2. Adjustable arm. Not as common. While this type may be more expensive, it can be repaired and maintained very easily. When aligning this type, the length of the arm changes, but the location of the inner pivot points does not. This has less effect on the steering relationships.

We made the choice to go with an adjustable arm to lessen any changes to steering geometry during alignments. Also, track side adjustments are very easy, loosen the jam nuts, rotate the adjuster sleeve, tighten the jam nuts. Make notes of how many "flats" you turn, and you can easily turn it back. Working with SPC on these was very enjoyable, as they were willing (without too much extra cost) to build us exactly what we wanted. The inner pivots are Delron lined and have grease zerks for smooth and quiet operation. The ball joint cups are set at 11 degrees 'in' and 3 degrees 'back' This keeps the ball joint pivot dead center in it's travel range at ride height, allowing maximum tuning and motion range. These use the K772 Chrysler screw in ball joints. These are a favorite of oval track and road racers. While we use the Moog ball joint in production, there are many versions available, such as the Howe precision Low Friction ball joints. They are also much stronger than the A and F body 4-bolt style ball joint.

**** Before you ask, we are not fond of using the lower A-arm as an alignment point, as doing so has drastic effects on the 'low' mounted steering on these types of suspension designs. ****

carbuff

04-13-2015, 11:55 AM

Quick question Rob... On the ball joint plate, why is one end bolted while the other is welded? Are both arms adjustable? I'm wondering if it's due to arc-angles as you adjust, but I would think you'd want both to have some swivel in that case.

Really just curious. I like the approach and really appreciate the information you are sharing in explaining your design choices!

RobNoLimit

04-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Think about the arm as a triangle, where the three points (corners) are where the three bolts are located. Geometrically, on these arms, the ball joint plate becomes a part of one of the 'legs' of the triangle. The welded stem on the ball joint plate also helps keep the plate and ball joint solidly located. As to the info sharing, your welcome, and thanks. We may not have first in the subframe market, but remember, it's the second mouse that gets the cheese. We're just trying to fill in a small segment of builders and enthusiasts looking for that next level of driving experience.

cornfedbill

04-13-2015, 01:31 PM

Rob,

This is definitely out of the normal box. I like it. It shows that you put a lot of thought into the design.

I am looking forward to see how it performs.

Are you planning to bring something with this set-up to the Loveland Good Guys in the fall?

RobNoLimit

04-14-2015, 05:03 AM

I'm not sure I'll make Loveland, but Keith might. He is the new owner of the Velocity Camaro, which now has a Sniper IFS. I know that his goal is to qualify the car for the GoodGuys Scottsdale Shootout, and the OUSCI. So if he needs the points, he'll be there. We are going to Raleigh this weekend for the GoodGuys show and the car will be there. Our current set back may be tires. We got a used set of Falkens in the winter when we put the new suspension in and have been testing and racing on them, and they're pretty worn out. - No new tires available at the moment, so Raleigh and Kissimmee we be on used hides. I bet she still makes the board.

cornfedbill

04-14-2015, 05:23 AM

RobNoLimit

04-20-2015, 05:15 AM

Just back from the 1rst GoodGuys North Carolina Nationals. If you missed this one, you missed a great show! We got 12+ runs Friday and Saturday, and another 6+ Sunday morning. This was an All Years event, so the Street Machine class had late models as well. Lots of C5 and C6 'Vettes. The track was small and tight with a lot of elements, and right from the start I knew I would have trouble in the truck (too wide) Keith, driving Velocity, ran a few 43's and then 42's. I ran a few 42's and then 41's. I thought that 39's were possible. They were, but not from us. Kyle Tucker in his '70 Camaro ran a 39.6xx and Mike Johnson ran a few 39.6xx in his 'Vette. Low 40's seemed to be the fast kids. Smitty ran a 40.3xx in the 48 Hour 'Vette, I ran a 40.4xx in the HellBoy, and Bret Voelkel ran a 40.5xx in the Mustang. Keith's best lap of 41.6xx put him in 5th in the Pro class. I drove Velocity for one run (my first time driving it on an auto-x track) and ran a high 42. And then, totally understood Keith's difficulties. It's just plain uncomfortable on the track. Not the whole car, but the drivers compartment sure is. The pedals are crowded, the steering wheel is too small and too close to the dash, and the seat doesn't hold you in. Really, it looks like a bucket, and it's comfortable to sit in, but in a corner, you may as well be on a bench seat. It takes all of you focus not to fall over. We changer to a 15" dished wheel from the swap meet on Saturday at lunch, and that helped, but the message was clear. Driver Ergonomics is a big problem. By the way, this does not show up when driving down the street. The car feels nice.

My thoughts, after driving, is that these ergo problems were worth at least a full second, putting the car in range of a mid to low 40 sec. run. So, this week we will be changing the drivers seat and harnesses, and reworking the column, wheel, and pedals.

As for the suspension, we did a bit of tuning, and it was doing everything we asked. One rotation of toe out (appx 1/4") for the tight coarse, and another 1/2 degree neg camber on the right front and the turn in was quick and on line. No push. the rear was slightly loose but very controllable. We think a larger front bar may be in order. Tire temps were even, and tire wear was good. The used Falkens held up well, but new skins are definitely in order. Some new rubber could be worth a second as well. Florida GoodGuys is not looking so good next weekend, but "Cruisin the Smokies" is in two weeks, and we should be ready for that.

bret

04-20-2015, 06:55 AM

Rob makes a great point...driver "comfort" is a big deal! When we built this Velocity in 2008, we were using tires that had MUCH less grip. Now that they have the far stickier Falkens on it, brake knockback has raised its ugly head. The seats were cool looking and quite adequate back then...there is better stuff available now. Pedal and steering wheel placement is subjective and must be arranged for the individual driver.
One thing that has not become outdated...that car still looks bitchin! We all went to dinner Thursday nite in Raleigh...to see Velocity roll thru the mall parking lot, pull into a parking spot, and unload three people like a minivan brought yet another smile to my face!
Congratulations to Rob McGreagor and Keith Corrigan for continuing the concept in which Velocity was born...very proud to continue to be a part of it!

RobNoLimit

04-20-2015, 12:24 PM

Hell yes, the car IS bitchin! By no means am I implying that it wasn't built well. As we work on the car, I am continually impressed with some of things that Snaps did. It really is built well. But it was built over eight years ago, things have evolved, and we learned things since then. Look at the difference between my old truck, the Silver Bullit F-100 and the HellBoy C10. And those two builds are only 4 years apart. If your not learning new things on a regular basis, your just steeling oxygen from those of us who need it. I've talked to about a hundred people in the last month or so about the pedals in a first gen, and everyone just says "that's how they are" What? Drum brakes is "how they are" too. Time to evolve this platform a little more. It'll just take a few tweeks. Trust me, or ask Smitty, he drove it. It's fast, it turns and it's predictable. You can trust it going in to a corner. So, first GoodGuys event with the new suspension and Keith makes the board in a tough and fast crowd, Yeah, it's bitchin.

DJW32

04-20-2015, 07:47 PM

Is Velocity running the ridetech rear suspension?

RobNoLimit

04-21-2015, 04:49 AM

Is Velocity running the ridetech rear suspension?

yes. We did change from the urethane bushed ends to rod ends, to free up the rear motion. We didn't notice any change in ride quality. So, some more info on the car. We are using the 1/2" drop solid subframe bushings. - Don't know who's, they were on the car. It has a bolt-in RideTech "Tiger Cage", and we added a crossbar for the seat backs. There are no subframe connectors. The car has been 'mini' tubbed, with DSE tubbs. Everything is steel. Fenders, hood, inner fenders, valences, everything. No Diet plan here. Full interior, stereo, A/C,.... It's an honest "Pro-Touring" car.

bret

04-21-2015, 01:04 PM

I think it's cool that many of us arrive at mostly the same points...tire size...suspension geometry...drive ergonomics...brakes...these things all add up to tenths of a second. When the top 5 of many events are separated by maybe 2/10ths...these little things are important.
The other cool thing is that none of these refinements are a compromise to the drivability and organic enjoyment of the car...in fact they enhance it. The short story is that we are all building better cars these days!

DJW32

04-21-2015, 10:00 PM

Quick question:
What seats are in Velocity and hellboy?

RobNoLimit

04-22-2015, 07:01 AM

The HellBoy has some E-Bay seats from a place called "Sick-Speed" These are 'tuner' seats, and kind of flimsy at first. I cut the headrest down for looks, and once the seat was mounted and the back braced to the cage, they are very solid. The covers are showing some wear after three years, but i do like the way they fit around you. They are non-adjustable. I think the seats in Velocity are Recarro, but not sure, they have custom covers and no logo. They are adjustable, and nice seats, but lack the 'holding' support we're after. We are now fitting V with a Kirkey seat for the driver. This will be non adjustable and set up to remove quickly, so that the seats can be swapped for normal driving to track days.

RobNoLimit

04-22-2015, 07:22 AM

I have been asked about this, and to lay it out in one format. Also, to put the brakes into packages, and to allow for shock choices. The Sniper Sub-frame assembly will start without brakes or coil-overs. You can chose those items from us, or not. Shocks and brakes are a big part of the performance ability, so we are not offering any package that will not live up to the performance level of the suspension design. As for recommendations, I am a loyal RideTech soldier, and will stay with them. Some have asked for JRI and with JJ's help we can supply these if you choose. I sell a lot of Wilwood product and it is proven. Personally I fell that the TBM package has the edge. All brake packages include Wilwood "E" pads, others are available.
What would my recommended package be?

Sniper sub-frame IFS package $6550
RideTech TQ shocks $1650
Tuner pack of springs $200
TBM 13" x 4 piston brakes $1797
Tuner pack of sway bars $225
SGB powder coat $300
Brake hoses $85
Steering kit $95
Yes, that's a big hit, at $10,902, but you get everything, and its all matched, and it works! We are in production of our first run, and are offering a discount for the first 15 orders. Please PM for details. (6 already sold, 9 are left)

carbuff

04-22-2015, 11:35 AM

Rob,

What is your plan and timeline for the second generation F-Body platform?

RobNoLimit

04-22-2015, 01:26 PM

Rob,

What is your plan and timeline for the second generation F-Body platform?

Right now we are getting up speed with the first gens. Second gens are on deck. Right now I'd say that we are looking at mid June to July before we have second gen Camaro in the works, and another month or two to be ready for sale. The subframe is only slightly different, and all of the suspension components are the same, so this should be a lot easier than the first one.

cornfedbill

04-22-2015, 04:06 PM

Rob,

It looks like you have a winning subframe. Every car has do be dialed in, as you know.

I am looking forward to some fast times from Velocity.

bret

04-22-2015, 10:50 PM

Current seats in Velocity are Cerullo...nice seats, comfortable, state of the art in 2008, but not supportive enough for the cornering capabilities of todays equipment.

RobNoLimit

04-27-2015, 05:49 AM

A few updates on the Velocity Camaro. Last week we make a few changes to the car. We swapped in a Kirkey seat, pulled the column back 1 1/2" and changed to a 15" wheel (a 14" is really the answer I think). On the Sniper IFS, we changed the assist slave on the rack from a 1 3/8" to a 1 1/2". The steering was good, but in tight low speed corner with low engine RPM it was a bit too firm. This change will be updated on all Sniper IFS units.
On Sunday we went out to the local SCCA Auto-X and had some fun. With the differences in track layouts we can judge the car in two ways. 1-simply by the butt dyno. Seat of the pants driver feel. 2-comparisons with 'known cars'. We compared with "Jim" and his A/C Cobra on slicks, in the Pro class, and "Dale"in a C7 Vette in the Pro class. The coarse at Pellisippe State is close to the same each time, but with minor changes, run time is appx 60 sec. for the fast group. The last few times out Keith ran 6 sec slower than Jim, and 4 sec slower than Dale, this seems to be the norm. Yesterday he ran 2 sec slower than Jim, and even with Dale. So the comparisons say 4 seconds improvement, and the butt dyno says "Oh Yeah!" The car and driver are happy all the way around the coarse. Still on wasted tires, but a huge step. The ergonomics was the last piece of the puzzle. Now it's tuning and driving. Can't wait for CTS and Nashville!

dontlifttoshift

04-27-2015, 06:56 AM

. I sell a lot of Wilwood product and it is proven. Personally I fell that the TBM package has the edge. )

Please expand. What do you like about the TBM brakes? I already have a set, just curious about your feedback.

DJW32

04-27-2015, 07:12 AM

Seat looks good. Which kirkley seat is that?

RobNoLimit

04-27-2015, 08:35 AM

Please expand. What do you like about the TBM brakes? I already have a set, just curious about your feedback.

OK Donny. Here is something I've done for about 20 yrs. A performance car comes in with some brake issues of XYZ..... one of the first things I do is pull the pads out and measure them. Thickness, in six places, the four corners, about 1/2" from the corner, and then the 'middle top' and 'middle bottom' of the pad. I started to notice a pattern of wear that indicates that the caliper is "opening" up, like a clamshell. The pads are worn most at the the top two corners, and least in the 'bottom middle'. Then, I put the pads on the mill and use an old (as in dull, and I don't like it any more) fly cutter and surface cut the pads. I have had pads that needed as much as .050" cut to get them square again. With just that, most of the 'pad fade', 'brake fade', knock back' problems are gone. What that tells me is that caliper flex is a big deal. Also, if the pads have the same pressure on a smaller contact (due to an en-even wear) area, they will run much hotter. The system will require more pedal travel, and the brakes may also exhibit some drag. SO, I started to put a set of dial calipers (to measure) over the brake calipers on new installs, across the brake caliper from inside to outside, and then push on the pedal to build 700 psi (brake pressure gauge screwed into the caliper) and measure the flex of the brake caliper. Over the years, the TBM calipers flex the least. So, if you believe that this makes a difference, it may sway your opinion. Have you run the TBM brakes? how do you like them?

RobNoLimit

04-27-2015, 08:38 AM

Seat looks good. Which kirkley seat is that?

Not sure, keith picked it up. I'll see if I can find out for you.

dontlifttoshift

04-27-2015, 09:03 AM

Rob, I don't have any experience with them yet, just have a set on the car I'm building. They are supposed to magical, that's why I bought them. You are the only person I have heard any feedback from that wasn't trying to sell them to me.......so naturally I was curious. Good that you were able to match E pads to them, I figured I could, just haven't tried yet.

Thanks!

RobNoLimit

05-04-2015, 05:39 AM

First of all, Thanks to Bill Howell, Brian Finch and their crew that ran the Auto-X on Friday. There were 83 cars in four classes and they ran out over 1000 laps! The BFG "Share the Ride" was in full swing and gave over 100 rides.

As for Keith and Velocity, had a blast, but somewhat cautiously. Last weekend the clutch showed us it's death rattle, so this weekend it was all about not pushing the clutch too far. We got a new Centerforce Diad in on Thursday, but not enough time to change it out. Also, the used scrub tires that we put on initially are done, almost slicks. Again, a new set arrived on Thursday, but no time to change. Because of the cars current limitations, we decided to do a "No Tuning" day. No shock, sway bar, or spring tuning, just air pressure and driver adjustments. Keith was still very happy with the car, made some solid laps getting used to the seat and steering wheel, and even had two laps with an EVO driving school instructor. By days end he was running fast and smooth lines, and even won his class with a 39.971 (Vintage Class was '89 and older). What is most impressive to me is how he would have stacked up in the Pro Class.

Pro Class Times:
Brian Finch 70 Camaro 38.584
Rob MacGregor 70 C10 38.856
Bret Voelkel 70 Mustang 39.002
Chris Smith 69 Vette 39.432 (Chris broke mid day friday)
** Kieth Corrigan 68 Camaro 39.971 **
Tyler Powel 67 Vette 40.191
Tim McGilton 71 Camaro 40.313

This is only the fourth event out for this car with the new Sniper IFS, and Keith has less than 50 Auto-X laps in the car. Add to that, the car has changed every time it's been out. Yeah, we're happy with the results. Next up, Clutch and Tires, then it's on to Nashville.

rchaskin

05-04-2015, 06:47 AM

RobNoLimit

05-05-2015, 05:05 AM

I got to see a complete frame on the stand at your trailer.

I have to say it is a very nice piece.
Totally out of the box, and all of the parts look very heavy duty. Especially hub/spindle/balljoints.

Thanks Randy. The guys work really hard to turn out the best IFS available. We're proud of the Hub/Spindle assembly, it turned out better than expected, strong and light.

RobNoLimit

05-05-2015, 05:16 AM

Here is a look at the lower control arms, and their relationship in the Sub-Frame. The bushings are wide, 3" x 1.75" with a .875" x .120" inner sleeve. Both bushings are fitted with grease ports. The main tubing is 1.125" x .188" DOM custom machined ball joint sockets with a wide lower band. These use the large Chrysler screw in ball joints #K727. Nice choice for strength and easy service. Also, these are available in Mono-Ball, Low Friction, Tall, and Adjustable styles from the racing aftermarket. I set the can in for size reference. (If you're stopping by for a visit, these are always welcome, or the other silver cans) The kick down in the leading tube is for steering clearance. The next two picts show the A-arms in the Sub-Frame so that you can see the relationship to one another and the vehicle center line.

Yelcamino

05-05-2015, 07:37 AM

I got to see a complete frame on the stand at your trailer.

I have to say it is a very nice piece.
Totally out of the box, and all of the parts look very heavy duty. Especially hub/spindle/balljoints.

I was looking at it too and thought the same things! Very nice!

Kenova

05-05-2015, 06:35 PM

Those arms are looooong. They look like something you would see on a desert racer.

Ken

DJW32

05-05-2015, 08:48 PM

Congratulations to Keith on the win.

The front sub looks great! Everything is really well thought out.

DJW32

05-19-2015, 10:09 PM

Quick bump.

Rob,
Do you have a pic of velocity with the motor and sub installed? If you do, would you please post it when you get a a chance.

Kcorrigan2

05-20-2015, 04:13 AM

113059

DJW32

05-20-2015, 07:06 AM

Keith,

Thanks for the pic. Do you have a picture with the hood open? I'm curious about the room in the engine bay? Also, what does the air intake look like?

RobNoLimit

05-20-2015, 08:32 AM

Ill get you some

Keith,

Thanks for the pic. Do you have a picture with the hood open? I'm curious about the room in the engine bay? Also, what does the air intake look like?

RobNoLimit

05-20-2015, 08:53 AM

With the weather a bit iffy, we held out for the final decision to go until Wednesday evening, things were looking a little better, so we decided yes. The Camaro was ready (truck also) and we headed to NashVegas. Friday morning was a bit of a mess, between traffic and the LP Field traffic Nazi's, we were too late in to walk the coarse. - even missed the first run. As you've heard, the coarse was tight and narrow, and we found it tough to find a rhythm. The Pro class was filled with more than 20 cars, and all of them fast. Neither Keith nor myself got a clean lap in on Friday, and Saturday was rained out. The fastest recorded lap for Keith was a 52.708, for 9th place. (for comparison, I recorded a 52.529, for 8th place) Kieth's time includes one cone penalty (51.708 +1). From my notes I have him with a fastest run lap of 51.273 + 2 cones. We spent most of the day playing around with steering wheels and shock valving. For the most part we are very happy with the cars performance. It does everything you ask it to do. The best part may be the street manners, as it is a pleasure to drive around town or on the highway. Next USCA Kentucky. See ya there

TheJDMan

05-20-2015, 09:52 PM

Rob,
With the 3/4" engine offset to the passenger side how does that effect the drive shaft working angle? Is the pinion offset as well?

RobNoLimit

05-21-2015, 04:56 AM

Rob,
With the 3/4" engine offset to the passenger side how does that effect the drive shaft working angle? Is the pinion offset as well?

We keep the pinion centered. Having the engine offset is no problem, as long as the engine/trans centerline is still parallel to the vehicle centerline. So, if you move the front of the engine over 3/4", you have to move the trans mount pad over the same 3/4". Really i was shooting for 1", but that put some clearances too close, and yes, that last 1/4" makes a difference. Remember that the drive shaft and U-joints can move side-to-side just as they move up-and-down.

Smittys

05-21-2015, 12:53 PM

I must say there is a new player in the game now. I have drove this car several times.... And it doesn't suck.

COPO-RAT

05-22-2015, 10:31 AM

Rob,
How much shorter is the snout on the Sniper spindle as opposed to a standard Wide Five spindle? I'm having trouble with track width on the front of my Chevelle Wide Five project......

rustomatic

05-22-2015, 05:47 PM

Hey Rob,

You're doing a great job here--it's good for all of us that you're taking a Ron Sutton-level approach to educating the motorhead public while producing what will undoubtedly be a suspension/chassis setup that will make everyone else stand up and worry. I didn't have much understanding of scrub radius before this thread, so thank you for the knowledge you're dropping with the product rollout.

If you wouldn't mind, might you share the length of that lower control arm, and maybe the space between the mounting points? Since you moved east, some of us just might have to wait a bit too long to run into you at an event any time soon (with our cameras and dirty knees), and those of us without Camaros might have a bit of trouble trying to find sufficient perspective to determine scale in the pictures.

Again, thanks for the free education!

Kcorrigan2

06-03-2015, 06:35 AM

For any of you who might be interested I will have Velocity out at NCM Raceway Park this weekend for the USCA event there. You can check out the Sniper IFS up close and in-person as we go head to head with some of the best rides in the country!!

patrickk1

06-04-2015, 04:18 AM

Are there any plans on re-designing the c10 wide-ride using Some of these components?

RobNoLimit

06-04-2015, 05:05 AM

Are there any plans on re-designing the c10 wide-ride using Some of these components?

I doubt it. There really isn't the gains to be had there. If you look at the C10 Wide Ride IFS, it already has great geometry, fits a 345 tire up front, low scrub radius, great ackerman, and fits well in the C10 marketplace. (bolt-on, affordable price point) and many available options. Add to that the success of Chris Smith and Wes Drelleshak, both of their trucks have Wide-Ride IFS's, and No Limit rear suspensions, and for the most part, no other trucks have out run them. So, you can see that there isn't much reason to fit a Sniper IFS for a C10 chassis.

- BUT, I'm not sayin that there won't be a Sniper IFS fitted with a unique rail system that could easily be fitted to say, an 'A' body, and that such an IFS could be integrated into a truck chassis. No, I wouldn't bet against that.

RobNoLimit

06-11-2015, 08:34 AM

We have had several questions about brakes, we have all of the designs/components for Bear and Wilwood, and now TBM. The TBM package makes the most sense to us as far a performance goes, but other factors, such as matching the rear, using existing components, style.... may come into play. Here is an assembly of the TBM components.

BTW, we are currently working on the rotor floater ring and caliper mounts to run the Z06 carbon brakes. Stay tuned

RobNoLimit

06-11-2015, 08:42 AM

TBM Scalloped rotors save weight and aid in cooling. Also the TBM caliper design has proved to show less flex than others we have tested. 1. Don't forget to screw in the wheel studs first. We use and ARP screw in stud. The rotor adapter ring is machined to lock in place onto the hub. the fit is tight. Start all of the bolts and tighten in a star pattern to seat the ring. Torque to 40 ft.lbs., then remove the bolts, add locktite, and re-install. Torque to 45 lbs.

RobNoLimit

06-11-2015, 08:49 AM

The TBM rotor has an 8 x 7" pattern, a bit smaller than the Baer and Wilwood 12 bolt patterns. Also, TBM rotors are not available in 14". We use standard grade 8 hardware to attach the rotor to the ring. Then following normal procedures, the hub and rotor is mounted onto the spindle, and the caliper is bolted on. The TBM calipers use the same "Supelight" pads as many Wilwood and Baer calipers. This is the common 'race' caliper design for many Oval and Road Racing classes, so there are a lot of pad choices available.

TLWiltman

06-12-2015, 02:51 PM

I noticed the TBM setup is with a .81 wide rotor. How hard would it be to go with a 1.25 rotor?

RobNoLimit

06-15-2015, 05:21 AM

I noticed the TBM setup is with a .81 wide rotor. How hard would it be to go with a 1.25 rotor?

Changing to a 1.25" thick rotor is simple. The rotor is a direct bolt-on replacement, all that's required is a caliper mount block that moves the caliper .218" inboard. Some would do this with a spacer, but we have a dedicated machined mount for the 1.25" rotor.

There is a small weight difference between a .812" and a 1.25" rotor, but remember, this is "un-sprung" and "rotating" weight. So, we try to cut this down as much as possible, as this is the worst weight you could have in the car. - This is why the car isn't getting 14" x 1.25" rotors, and, it won't need them to stop. Heat created by the type of intended driving is also a factor. The 1.25" will shed a bit more heat, about 12% faster after full heat soak. Now look at what we do. Aggressive street, Auto-X, drags, and track days. Even on a USCA event, the Road Coarse sections are limited to 12 to 15 minutes, so 10 to 12 laps. You may feel the brakes fully heat soaked by then, but the 200 TW tires are already gone, so it's not a huge concern. Properly venting the brakes is a better answer.

Peter Mc Mahon

06-15-2015, 07:26 AM

What is the total weight difference between the 2 Rob?

RobNoLimit

06-15-2015, 09:00 AM

I got the numbers from the source, TBM, and it's 1.1 lbs per rotor. Not a whole lot, doesn't seam like much. But, here's my thoughts. Lets say it's only worth .01 seconds on the brake 'in' in the corner, maybe .005 seconds rolling 'through' the corner, and again .01 seconds on the corner 'exit'. Remember, we're using the same brake on the rear, so a little weight savings there too which helps acceleration. It's not much, only .025 seconds faster in a corner. Now, from all my notes, the average Auto-x turns per run are like this, SCCA = 23 turns, GoodGuys = 14 turns, USCA = 16 turns (these are averages from the ones we've been to. yes, we keep notes on this stuff) But, if you do gain .025 sec per turn, that equates to SCCA = .575 seconds, GoodGuys = .350 seconds, USCA = .400 seconds. On a road coarse, due to increased acceleration times and the length of braking zones, they may be worth more, provided you don't overheat the brakes. Take a look at some of the top ten times at a recent event and see what .400 seconds would do for someones time/ranking.

Peter Mc Mahon

06-15-2015, 09:43 AM

This is good stuff Rob, I cant' speak for anyone else but this is the stuff that ,by default, makes me consider it over another product. Good reasoning and facts to back it up. You are an asset to this forum, thanks.

TLWiltman

06-15-2015, 08:46 PM

Good info! Thank you. I can see the heavier rotors being good for road course on slicks and the like. Thinner for street tire.

RobNoLimit

06-16-2015, 08:40 AM

Thanks for the positive responses. To help with spring rate choices we have decided to include this chart with all Sniper IFS kits. Starting with a given Spring Rate (the pounds of force needed to compress the spring 1") we can calculate the true Wheel Rate (the pounds of force needed to move the tire up 1"). And from there, we can calculate the Suspension Frequency (think of this as the suspensions reaction time, where a higher number is a faster reaction. Like cycles/second, or miles/hour). Part of the calculation for Suspension Frequency includes the value of Sprung weight per corner. We have worked this out for two weights. A 3350 lb camaro will have appx 750 lbs of sprung weight per corner, where as a lighter 3200 lb car (check USCA rules here) will have appx 700 lbs of sprung weight per corner.

Where do you need to be on the chart? Well, that depends on what you want to do, and how sticky your tires are. With 200 TW street tires, the range is as follow (generally)
1.65 to 1.75 = smooth yet sporty street ride, good handling
1.75 to 1.85 = sporty ride, needs good shocks, great short coarse trainer.
1.85 to 1.95 = firm ride, needs dialed in shocks and sway-bars. Track day weapon.
2.00 and up = This is race car territory. Skill and slicks required. You can go there, but use caution, this may react quicker than you.

Note: If your going to tune and set-up using Suspension Frequency, the rear needs to match. Sort of. It needs to be balanced. If the car's weight balance is 52/48, the rear is 8% lighter than the front, I would start with 8% lower Spring Frequency in the rear than the front. Example, For Velocity, at 3400 lbs, if we use a 600 lb front spring to yield a 1.918 S.F. in front, we would start the rear with a 1.765 S.F. in the rear. This will have a slight push in corner entry, so we will then add to the total roll stiffness in the rear to balance the car. How do you calculate the S.F. in the rear? Sign up for one of Ron Sutton's Seminars, or just buy his new book. :)

RobNoLimit

06-17-2015, 05:27 AM

As they say, "It's the little things.." yes, they sometimes make all the difference. We got in a batch of production sway bay bushings today (this is nice for us, because we don't have to cut them on the lathe our selves now). We couldn't find exactly what we wanted so we had these custom made. 1) We wanted a wide shoulder for the sway bar arm to ride against, this helps eliminate the tendency for the arm to 'tip' during hard cornering and eventually 'walk off' the end of the sway bar. 2) We wanted the the I.D. to have a slight taper on the cut from both sides. The bore of the new bushings has .01 degree lead in cut from each side, leaving a .280" band inside with a 1.260" I.D.

Why do this? Try as we do, the two mounts for the sway bar are not "Perfectly" aligned. Our build process is to weld in a full length of DOM across the subframe, and later cut the center out leaving the two separate mounts, one on each rail. I'm sure we are closer to "Perfect" than anyone else - without using a bearing (rattles). A standard style bushing with a wide and straight I.D. bore would cause a slight bind in the sway bar. Our new tapered I.D has plenty of load strength for the forces involved, and has very 'free' rotation of the bar. Remember that any 'drag' in the suspension motion can 'add' dampening and make suspension tuning a fight to figure out.

Will you notice the difference? maybe, maybe not. In comparison, a certain set of plug wires may give you 2 hp @ 6000+ rpm. That's a .33% gain (600 hp motor) and only above 6000. Do we run them, Hell yes. This bushing change will clean up the suspension movement at ALL speeds and driving conditions. So, is it worth it? I'll watch and see in the future if other suspension companies start using/advertising "Tapered seat" or "low resistance" bushings. - They'll have to to keep up.

k7king

06-17-2015, 06:31 AM

what's the o.d. Rob. Just made a sway mount for my vette and wondered if they'd fit...1.500?

RobNoLimit

06-17-2015, 08:47 AM

they are 1.505". I could sell the separate for $15 each. They fit a 1.250 bar

frojoe

06-17-2015, 10:43 AM

What blend of Nylon is that? I'd also be interested in a pair as I'm about to embark on making my own swaybar and will be designing around a 1.25" bar..!

k7king

06-17-2015, 04:51 PM

Rob
I'll take 4. Is it best to call or email? my email is [email protected]

RobNoLimit

06-18-2015, 05:04 AM

What blend of Nylon is that? I'd also be interested in a pair as I'm about to embark on making my own swaybar and will be designing around a 1.25" bar..!

Hmm, No. I will tell you this. In the materials category that would include Phenolic, Nylon, Teflon and Delrin, there is a sub group of UHMWPE materials. It is in this last group that we can find specialized materials suitable for space travel, and Hot Rodding.

RobNoLimit

06-18-2015, 05:05 AM

Rob
I'll take 4. Is it best to call or email? my email is [email protected]

Jessi will contact you today. Thanks Mike.

rchaskin

06-18-2015, 07:09 AM

.....suitable for space travel, and Hot Rodding......

LOL!! For the Win!!

RobNoLimit

07-08-2015, 08:23 AM

We'll be in Columbus this weekend for the GoodGuys PPG Nationals. Stop by the Auto-X pits and check the suspension out in person. Heck, you can even go for a ride!

RobNoLimit

07-29-2015, 08:55 AM

Quick Performance update. Last weekend we were in Charlotte for the UCSA event. Had a great time, yes, it was HOT, but still fun. As usual, racing will find the weak links. Keith's starter (on Velocity) broke an ear off of the body by the outer mounting bolt - not all that un-common, so we push started it to get to DSE for the road rally. The kind folks at DSE let us use a lift, an old starter, some tools and their mechanic! Got it fixed. Pam (Keith's wife) was losing brakes after the Auto-cross in the morning. We got a new master from the Wilwood display trailer and swapped it during lunch and bled the brakes with a cut up water bottle and two little hoses, but they work better than ever. I had my own troubles with the HellBoy, that I thought were ignition woes, and I tried swapping plugs, wires and coils.... but no luck, so I sat out most of the road coarse runs (just limped through a few to get a time) It turned out to be a failing O2 sensor, better luck next time.
As for the Camaro's (and Keith's) performance, they both did great. We have been taking a break from tuning on the car to let Keith get used to it and gain seat time (in the same car every time) so its only air pressure and a few shock adjustments. The car was solid and predictable all weekend. Keith finished with a 7th over-all in the GTV class of 29 entries. With the first three spots being filled with Kyle Tucker, Brian Hobaugh and Mike Maier, I kind of look at this as a 4th place finish in a 'like' group of cars/competitors. Tire temps were even all around, and the car looked smooth. Mostly we're down to seat time and fine tuning. In reality, Keith has owned the car for 9 months now. The Sniper IFS has been in for four months, and this is the sixth driving event with the car. Keith ran his very first Auto-cross in March of 2014 in Pam's T-Bird. For anyone to be this competitive this fast is amazing. in a few weeks we will co-drive the car at a local SCCA event and do some actual tuning. We are all very impressed with the performance level, and the confidence that the suspension delivers.

rchaskin

07-29-2015, 09:42 AM

I wondered what happened to the truck on Sunday....
Dang parts...I spent most of the week before Charlotte UCSA getting a trans out / fixed / back in.

I did take some time to look at the front end of the Camaro when it was on the lift at DSE.
I'll go ahead and say again, it is a nice package for sure....Would love to have one under my car. Maybe one day!!

RobNoLimit

08-13-2015, 08:48 AM

Here are some picts of a production Sniper about to ship. This is shown with 13" 4 piston TBM brake set up. Also shown in the overview is our Sniper Side Rail support.

andrewb70

08-13-2015, 08:53 AM

Looks amazing!

Andrew

RobNoLimit

08-13-2015, 08:56 AM

A while back we mentioned that we were working on using the C6 Carbon brakes. We are making some good progress and should have these avail soon. Step one is the rotor adapter. We are using our standard Sniper Hub, and machined an interlocking rotor adapter to fit the hub spars. The rotor adapter was designed to use the OE C6 mounting hardware, including the floater guides and spring clips. This will duplicate GM's design path for the floating rotor. Next up is the caliper mount, but this is a big step forward.

jonesbs9

08-17-2015, 10:21 AM

looking good

RobNoLimit

09-15-2015, 11:42 AM

The BIG brake upfit is done. Very cool and very BIG. 15.25" carbon ZO6 rotor and 6 piston caliper mounted with the factory floating hardware. One thing we are really happy about is the rotor adapter ring. This is machined to lock on to the back of the hub so that the hub spars take the brake load, not the mounting bolts. Next to the monster is a 13" TBM wave rotor on the same hub for comparison. - Note, you must run a 19" wheel minimum.

RobNoLimit

11-13-2015, 10:19 AM

Although the two generations of Camaro/Firebird subframes are very close in many ways, they are not that close when it comes to a production item. There are two different locations of 2nd gen rear subframe mounts, depending on the year, and the firewall mount and core support mounts are also not the same as 1rst Gen's. - Way back in the early '90's I put an '80 subframe under a '67 Camaro that I had. It wasn't all that much fab work, and the car did drive way better, and as I remember, the biggest headache was with the steering box location. This swap gives us some good knowledge, but thankfully the days of those kind of swaps are over. -

The center rib section and the IFS geometry are exactly the same as the 1rst Gen Sniper, only the rails and mounts are different. This is. like the OE subframe, a direct bolt in, and can use urethane or solid body mounts. We have installed one with the 'short' mounts and it fit fine with one exception. The subframe hit the floor just behind the firewall mount, there are two or three layers of sheetmetal coming together in that area. A little persuasion with a ball peen hammer was all that was needed to eliminate the contact, and any subsequent rattle or rubbing.

With Sniper IFS units shipping out on a regular basis, we expect to see a bunch of them out and about next year. Look for the Sniper logo's at all of the cool events. - they'll be on the fast cars.

Kenova

11-13-2015, 07:04 PM

....... Way back in the early '90's I put an '80 subframe under a '67 Camaro that I had. It wasn't all that much fab work, and the car did drive way better, and as I remember, the biggest headache was with the steering box location.......

WOW! The Unicorn does exist!
For more than a few years I have been looking for info on this swap from someone who has actually
done it. Untill now the closest I have ever gotten was " my brother-in-law's cousin's best friend's
sister's boy friend did it".
Having done the swap so many years ago I doubt you would remember many of the finer details?
Obviously buying a Sniper sub would be the best way to go but it would take too many pension
cheques to pay for it, especially with the Canuck-buck tanking. In all honesty I'll never have the
skill and fortitude to use one to it's fullest potential.
Hey! Maybe you could market a conversion kit to put a second gen. frame in a first gen.!:naughty:

Ken