Why do people install modern motors in the muscle cars

[keith4909]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?

[Nicks67GTO]

Lol.....Wow this could get good

.....And here we have Yosemite Sean making his way into the PT.com bar

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/novaguy73/media/meme/hqdefault_zpspf38reyb.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/novaguy73/media/meme/images%204_zpsdo3dgxdw.jpg.html)

[TonyHuntimer]

Sean,
Sounds like we know what engine you like.

I'm not the least bit surprised at the amount of people using LS engines. They've really proven to be strong, reliable, lightweight, energy efficient, and powerful.

Personally, the small block and big block Chevy is still a great solution, but if you're "building" one, you can easily spend your allotted 6-8k. Why not build an engine with a lighter block?

:)
Tony Huntimer
TestCarDatabase.com

[Jameson]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?

LOL how are the big 3 motors and components crap? In the LS world stock 4.8 junkyard motors have made 1200+hp on a stock unopened motor on boost, run to 300k+ miles with minimal issues on all LS platforms, are cheap to be had and respond very strongly to aftermarket parts.

And the Toyota V8 I haven't seen any real life HP numbers when they start to go pop and the capabilities of the block.

What engines are you comparing this to? 70's to 90's SBC's? A little more info would make this easier to explain.

[LS7 Z/28]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?
Are you truly uneducated on the subject and have been living under a rock the past decade or do you just enjoy stirring things up to create turmoil? If you had been paying attention then you would know how unfounded your comments are. Posts like these are the reason I spend so little time on forums.

[Schwartz Performance]

You asked why people put modern engines in, but then suggest putting a Toyota V8 in...? Contradicting.

This guy is just trying to stir us all up..
Reminds me of the hot pockets meme.. Somebody post that picture please, lol.

-Dale

[andrewb70]

I smell a troll...but please continue...lol

Andrew

[rickpaw]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?

Not a V8, but been done with an I-6.

http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/hrdp-0904-1967-toyota-powered-chevrolet-camaro/

So how much will it take for you to build up a Pontiac V8? Cost me $6000 for a basic rebuild with a long block. At the end it did not have the reliability and power of modern engines.

Based on your comment, I'd take your daily driver has a 40 year old engine with a carb?

Different strokes for different folks.

[rickierockit92]

one word. TURBO

[cornfedbill]

I worked on the production LS motors for several years. I've been a small block Chevy fan for nearly 40 years. The LS motors make more power for less money than any of the vintage small blocks. The heads breathe so much better right out of the box. Not to mention that they are much lighter.

I have not seen under any circumstances that the new motors are "crap" or that they are more expensive to build than the older motors.

You may want to do more research before you make statements like that.

[Josh@Ridetech]

I'm a Ford guy, without a doubt....but I can appreciate the LS and it's capabilities.


I don't see why someone wouldn't want to put the LS engines in the old muscle cars. They make great power, cheap, weight is saved, and still get 20+ mpg (depending on the driver). I've got plans to build a 2nd gen, when that day gets here, you can bet that it'll have an LS in it.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

This is why....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/stupid-1.gif






















































https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/bcga-1.gif

[vintageracer]

Why put a modern motor in an old car?

Why do so many people feel the need to name their car?

The world may never know!

[Matman3]

Think he might drive a Prius?????

109529

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

109530

I'd ask this, but really, the trolling is so bad on this one.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

Why do so many people feel the need to name their car?



same reason they name their dogs... why not just call the dog... dog.

if your 67 Camaro is stock.. call it 67 Camaro right?

but if your car has been personalized(like we do) I would say it gets life breathed into it.. to the point that it somewhat has a soul..

I think it slightly legitimatizes a name for the build.. in such as a boat is named when it is built..


I christen thee.. defined question.


but what homeboy is talking about above.. that one I just dont think is an assessment from experience in one of these oldschools with an LS, New Hemi, Coyote, etc... at ALL.

because if he did.. might think very different..

[Matman3]

At the risk of being labeled a newbie, what is trolling?

[sccacuda]

Why do so many people feel the need to name their car?



Let's do this one next.

[Interceptor5588]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?

No leaks. Better fuel economy. Not afraid to drive it across the country. If you do, you can get parts if it breaks. Better power-weight ratio if it has an aluminum block.

The only reason I MIGHT stay with old Pontiac power in the future is just to be different -- getting pretty tired of seeing the LS swaps in EVERYTHING. Nothing innovative about it anymore.

[Dave B]

I'm a Ford guy, without a doubt....but I can appreciate the LS and it's capabilities.


I don't see why someone wouldn't want to put the LS engines in the old muscle cars. They make great power, cheap, weight is saved, and still get 20+ mpg (depending on the driver)
That's exactly how I feel, I'm a Ford guy all the way, but you can't not realize the potential of the LS engine.


Let's do this one next.
I name mine, the Green one, the Black one, and the White one.

[Matman3]

You Ford guys can't tell me swapping in a Terminator, Aluminator or Coyote does sound appealling!

[raustinss]

OMG the level of stupidity makes my head hurt...this di*K farmer is just trying to get a reaction. Ok so here is mine...............(crickets)

[andrewb70]

At the risk of being labeled a newbie, what is trolling?

Getting the natives all rilled up by making statements they know the majority of people might disagree with...LOL

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Let's do this one next.

That's my all time favorite h.a.m.b. thread.

[ragz]

The reason I love this forum... PASSION.. no one can say car guys don't have an opinion.

[hotrodalex]

This thread has inspired me to build a first gen Camaro with a Prius engine swap. I'll call her Priscilla.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I've never understood why you guys install 17" or bigger wheels. The original 14" steel wheels were more than adequate, and I just don't see why anyone would spend more than $2000 on a new set of modern wheels. Same thing for stereos. The original AM radios were fine for people back then, I don't get the hype. Same with base coat/clear coat finishes, original lacquer was just fine on these old cars, and I don't see why anyone would change it to BC/CC.

[WallaceMFG]

If he's worried about modern motors then lets go back in time and put steam engines into our cars!

[Josh@Ridetech]

You Ford guys can't tell me swapping in a Terminator, Aluminator or Coyote does sound appealling!

Well yeah, I'd be all over any of those lol. I hate to admit it but I thought about pulling my Mach 1 apart and putting the engine in my fox!

[dontlifttoshift]

Since this thread is already stupid, let me fix that for you.


You Ford guys can't tell me swapping in a LS3, LSA, or LS9 does sound appealling!

[andrewb70]

Since this thread is already stupid, let me fix that for you.

Nice...LOL

Andrew

[parsonsj]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but the OP's deeply researched post really resonated with me. I've got all my cars up for sale now, and I'm installing a hitching post out front for my stable of horses.

[raustinss]

Anybody have that new fandangled plumbing stuff.don't trust it myself digging a hole in the back 40 is more than enough for me. Plus it's free fertilizer

[cornfedbill]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but the OP's deeply researched post really resonated with me. I've got all my cars up for sale now, and I'm installing a hitching post out front for my stable of horses.

Won't pass emission tests - too much methane.

If you do convert to HORSE power, you will need to install cats on the exhaust...

[Richard454]

I realize it's not a Toyota....but it does have 4 more cylinders than a LS- and not really that modern as it's from the late eighties....

In an originally equipped big block 71 Corvette-

Because I can-

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/14774058563_656662aaa7_h-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ovwUTD)DSCN4455 (https://flic.kr/p/ovwUTD) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/15453838765_93a9bc410e_h-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pxAXRX)DSCN4811 (https://flic.kr/p/pxAXRX) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/14823537505_60858ca9b2_h-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ozUvfR)DSCN4590 (https://flic.kr/p/ozUvfR) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

[Nicks67GTO]

What is that??? ^^^

[ace_xp2]

Twelve cylinders of what,exactly? It kind of looks bmw, and I hadn't thought they did a lot of good in the twelve realm back then. On the other hand, power or no a twelve can be tuned to one hell of a sound!

[andrewb70]

Twelve cylinders of what,exactly? It kind of looks bmw, and I hadn't thought they did a lot of good in the twelve realm back then. On the other hand, power or no a twelve can be tuned to one hell of a sound!

I think it is a BMW engine...but hopefully the poster and clear it up...

Andrew

[Kenova]

I realize it's not a Toyota....but it does have 4 more cylinders than a LS- and not really that modern as it's from the late eighties....

In an originally equipped big block 71 Corvette-

Because I can-

You naughty, naughty boy!:naughty:
I'm guessing Mercedes. (WRONG!!) That last picture looks real familiar.
As for the troll's question, I've owned GM trucks with the 4.8 since '04 and they have been better than any SBC I've ever owned.

Ken

[mmosley]

Maybe the OP wants to put a RB26 twin turbo in a 1967 Mustang Fastback. That way he can aggravate the Nissan guys and the Ford guys at the same time.


Oh... wait, I think they did that in a movie already.

[srh3trinity]

Anybody want a stroker LS3? After reading this I may stick with the 2 barrel 350 Poncho stocker.

[mmosley]

but if your car has been personalized(like we do) I would say it gets life breathed into it.. to the point that it somewhat has a soul..

I never had a compulsion to name any of my cars. My family has been calling my car "the fish" for about 27 years now. Not sure I can change that moniker at this point. A few people I know do refer to it as the 'Cuda.

Some friends called it "Pro Patina" for a while, until last year it had mostly original paint with some sun bleached areas and a black primer fender but since I painted it no one goes there anymore.

Lately a couple of people have referred to it as "Top Notch", funny part of that is that they were not familiar with the 2nd generation Barracuda and did not know that we often refer to the Coupe as a "Notch" aka "Notchback", so "Top Notch" actually sounds kind of cool, but the non Mopar crowd for the most part would not understand the joke.

I'll probably just keep referring to it as the fish.

[keith4909]

I'm not knocking anyone's personal preferences. I was really curious about people thought process. The beauty and the complexity of doing such conversion deserves merit. I think the swaps are sexy because it shows pure skill and experience. Maybe I should have clarified about crap. Crap was also too harsh of a word. Most people adore the old way of things for there simplicity. When getting into modern day technology its no long only checking for fuel and spark. You have dozens of sensors that can go belly up any time. I want to be able to drive and fix my car when it breaks and swapping to a modern engine that may require special diagnostic equipment may inhibit that. These old motors/cars are really the only reason we don't have to smog these beasts. I do have one confession though. I love watching how it's made dream cars and if money were no issue I could see myself putting in a v10/v12 from an exotic. My 1967 gto is far from stock. Doing a full color change,18"s , monster motor, and monster brakes. Like I said I wanted to hear people's reason. I wasn't bored or trying to stir up things just want to hear all the expert opinions.

[Richard454]

It's a BMW-all aluminum SOHC 5.4l - or rather 328ci. It weighs in around 500lbs fully dressed. Stock w/ cats net 326 HP but 360ft/lb flat line from 1800 to 5300RPM. Originally propelled a 4400lb luxo barge w/ 5 speed slushbox to 60MPH in the mid 6's and the 1/4 mile in under 14 sec- top speed- governor limited at 155 MPH. Came out of a 97 BMW 750IL- have the original window sticker of just shy $98K!!! Engine is a combo an earlier V12 (1989 M70) and from the donor wrecked 97.

I have dry sumped it w/ a 3 stage set-up. Custom made intakes for the Jenvey 40mm ITB's. It's running GM LS truck coils (12 of them) and using a Megasquirt MS3Pro to control the fuel and spark. Custom bellhousing set up w/ a Muncie bolt pattern- BMW flywheel drilled and pinned for a Chevy pressureplate and flywheel.

AND I painted it Chevy orange...


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16039802853_811f90c006_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qrobz4)DSCN0762 (https://flic.kr/p/qrobz4) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16473554519_9b4e1c7d17_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r6HgQ4)DSCN0661 (https://flic.kr/p/r6HgQ4) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16452407117_07fcbe00d6_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTrF)DSCN1246 (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTrF) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16452407877_5e4c0907a5_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTEM)DSCN1972 (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTEM) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16472133368_a81bf28566_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r6zZns)DSCN2833_zps7c94068b.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/r6zZns) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16633763886_84e695bf8a_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rkSouw)P1010256.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/rkSouw) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16037399914_7faa4d77eb_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qraSg5)P1010447.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/qraSg5) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16039804213_d6e6014db7_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qrobYv)P1010454.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/qrobYv) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qok8r_etjgU

First start-open exhaust- initial tune- several years of work to get here....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcfCJkH6nbs

[Richard454]

I'm not knocking anyone's personal preferences. I was really curious about people thought process. The beauty and the complexity of doing such conversion deserves merit. I think the swaps are sexy because it shows pure skill and experience. Maybe I should have clarified about crap. Crap was also too harsh of a word. Most people adore the old way of things for there simplicity. When getting into modern day technology its no long only checking for fuel and spark. You have dozens of sensors that can go belly up any time. I want to be able to drive and fix my car when it breaks and swapping to a modern engine that may require special diagnostic equipment may inhibit that. These old motors/cars are really the only reason we don't have to smog these beasts. I do have one confession though. I love watching how it's made dream cars and if money were no issue I could see myself putting in a v10/v12 from an exotic. My 1967 gto is far from stock. Doing a full color change,18"s , monster motor, and monster brakes. Like I said I wanted to hear people's reason. I wasn't bored or trying to stir up things just want to hear all the expert opinions.

Ummm- it's still checking for fuel and spark. To set-up mine, I disconnected a plug wire -put in a spare plug -went to the laptop told it to fire plug one- it sparked- move on to the next one. Did the same w/ the injectors - plug in a spare injector and the laptop would fire it. I went w/ OEM sensors that are good for an easy 100k miles. Mine looks exotic- but I can get my parts at just about any auto parts store...

After I made my harness- I was able to set it on the bench w/ a laptop and check everything-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mMfNyZrfFM

[jbeezy53]

I'm not knocking anyone's personal preferences. I was really curious about people thought process. The beauty and the complexity of doing such conversion deserves merit. I think the swaps are sexy because it shows pure skill and experience............

I'm assuming there's an age/generation gap you aren't taking into consideration. I'm 30 years old now and started out messing with tbi motors as a teenager and quickly moved onto 86-93 foxbody mustangs. As you learned cars with carbs, I learned on FI vehicles. Even my motorcycles have all been FI. When in my teens most of my friends car's were 80s or 90s crap that we had to learn to fix if we wanted to be mobile. I started swapping FI 5.0s into older Fords and later moved onto LSx motors. Once you understand how all the electronics work it's really quite simple to modify a stock harness and have the FI motor running. A FI 5.0 motor is easier than a LSx motor though mostly due to the need to flash the GM computer. I've even stroked my 2002 Jeep GC and a foxbody mustang. Thanks to the adjustability, due to the senors and computer, I had those cars running "safely enough" with just an injector change or adjusting fuel pressure. To me that's almost as simple as a jet or carb change.

As for the cost yeah some LSx motors have a high price tag but that's for people who choose to go that route. They usually have the extra means to do so or don't know of other ways to go about it. I've done a 5.3/4L60e swap for less than $1200 total to have a complete running vehicle. Granted not the prettiest setup but decent power, good drive-ability and much more efficient. Once swapped over it's easy to drop in a more powerful LSx.

Johnnie

[BigVin]

It's a BMW-all aluminum SOHC 5.4l - or rather 328ci. It weighs in around 500lbs fully dressed. Stock w/ cats net 326 HP but 360ft/lb flat line from 1800 to 5300RPM. Originally propelled a 4400lb luxo barge w/ 5 speed slushbox to 60MPH in the mid 6's and the 1/4 mile in under 14 sec- top speed- governor limited at 155 MPH. Came out of a 97 BMW 750IL- have the original window sticker of just shy $98K!!! Engine is a combo an earlier V12 (1989 M70) and from the donor wrecked 97.

I have dry sumped it w/ a 3 stage set-up. Custom made intakes for the Jenvey 40mm ITB's. It's running GM LS truck coils (12 of them) and using a Megasquirt MS3Pro to control the fuel and spark. Custom bellhousing set up w/ a Muncie bolt pattern- BMW flywheel drilled and pinned for a Chevy pressureplate and flywheel.

AND I painted it Chevy orange...


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16039802853_811f90c006_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qrobz4)DSCN0762 (https://flic.kr/p/qrobz4) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16473554519_9b4e1c7d17_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r6HgQ4)DSCN0661 (https://flic.kr/p/r6HgQ4) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16452407117_07fcbe00d6_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTrF)DSCN1246 (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTrF) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16452407877_5e4c0907a5_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTEM)DSCN1972 (https://flic.kr/p/r4QTEM) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16472133368_a81bf28566_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r6zZns)DSCN2833_zps7c94068b.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/r6zZns) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16633763886_84e695bf8a_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rkSouw)P1010256.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/rkSouw) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16037399914_7faa4d77eb_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qraSg5)P1010447.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/qraSg5) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/16039804213_d6e6014db7_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qrobYv)P1010454.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/qrobYv) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qok8r_etjgU

First start-open exhaust- initial tune- several years of work to get here....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcfCJkH6nbs

Now thats hotrodding

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

damn dude youre in Atlanta?.. might have to come out and hang with us man.

[cornfedbill]

Maybe the OP wants to put a RB26 twin turbo in a 1967 Mustang Fastback. That way he can aggravate the Nissan guys and the Ford guys at the same time.


Oh... wait, I think they did that in a movie already.

As the story goes from an old Ford fan friend of mine, the Nissan motor was not enough to drift the Mustang. The actual car that performed the stunts was V8 Ford powered. I am not sure how true it is, but it makes a cool story...

[cornfedbill]

Anybody want a stroker LS3? After reading this I may stick with the 2 barrel 350 Poncho stocker.

Good call. Who would want more power and reliability with less fuel consumption anyway?

[cornfedbill]

I'm not knocking anyone's personal preferences. I was really curious about people thought process. The beauty and the complexity of doing such conversion deserves merit. I think the swaps are sexy because it shows pure skill and experience. Maybe I should have clarified about crap. Crap was also too harsh of a word. Most people adore the old way of things for there simplicity. When getting into modern day technology its no long only checking for fuel and spark. You have dozens of sensors that can go belly up any time. I want to be able to drive and fix my car when it breaks and swapping to a modern engine that may require special diagnostic equipment may inhibit that. These old motors/cars are really the only reason we don't have to smog these beasts. I do have one confession though. I love watching how it's made dream cars and if money were no issue I could see myself putting in a v10/v12 from an exotic. My 1967 gto is far from stock. Doing a full color change,18"s , monster motor, and monster brakes. Like I said I wanted to hear people's reason. I wasn't bored or trying to stir up things just want to hear all the expert opinions.

I worked at GMC Truck in the zone office during the transition from carbureted to throttle body injected engines. The number and complexity of parts actually went down. That is not as true when you consider a motor from the '60's or early '70's before emission controls.

I have been an engineer in the automotive industry for many years. The work I did with the LS motors helped me to understand that they are much simpler than people think. They are way easier to tune than a Rochester Q-jet, and point type ignition.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

The LS series engine are just outstanding in all ways, reliability, power, and cost is getting reasonable too. My 98 Trans Am made 432 reliable RWHP and I drove it daily for several years. The only issue I had were valvesprings hammering the cam, but that's an issue with any high lift cam, it's something I should have kept a better eye on. I returned it to stock after that, but I put on 60k miles with that cam, then another 30k stock, ultimately ending up at 209k miles with an engine that I literally did not have to touch at all aside from that cam. I never had a sensor go bad, never lost a tune, coils were original.

Tell me again about how LS engines are pieces of junk?

I'm going to build up my 71 Firebird with the 455 because I can't have a fleet of LSxs, especially in my Pontiacs. But I know I'll struggle to make even 400 hp to the wheels at twice, or three times the cost of an LS engine.

[Richard454]

Now thats hotrodding
THANKS.....


damn dude youre in Atlanta?.. might have to come out and hang with us man.

I saw your Camaro at Dandy Doughnuts a while back- liked the dry sump setup....Right now I'm trying to get it drivable-my other ride is a stock 73 vette AKA Plan B. Not far from Brookrun- my son is there all the time skatebording-I'll have to check it out.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/4323769847_7dc3a25630_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/7A5s8Z)




I have been an engineer in the automotive industry for many years. The work I did with the LS motors helped me to understand that they are much simpler than people think. They are way easier to tune than a Rochester Q-jet, and point type ignition.

SOOOO true...



A couple members asked who's tuner program I was running. It's from EFI Analytics- Tuner Studio- about $60.

And the ECU is a Megasquirt MS3Pro- a great piece!!!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/ms3pro-1.jpg

[69LSX]

Because I have the money, and I can. Next !

[jaybee]

Well Sean, thanks for coming back and rephrasing your question. Here's the deal as I see it;

Hot rodding has always been about increasing the performance of your vehicle...doesn't get much more basic than that. That was true when they slipped '32 chassis under Model A bodies. It was true when they started slipping Cad and Olds V8s in place of Flatheads. It's true in other areas of the cars, too...replacing mechanical brakes with early juice brakes, then finned Buick drums, then Mustang disks.

Part of this is about stuffing big engines into small cars along with bigger brakes, stronger suspension, tougher transmissions, and the rest. We're not restorers. Notice, though, the trend through all this hot rod history recognizes that the trend has been consistently toward getting better from newer/better technology. In '65 everyone wanted the 327hp 327 Chevy. It was a peaky, low mpg beast that needed constant tuning to stay sharp...and that 327hp was gross...that's 10-15% higher than the net figure the industry switched to around 1970.

So, correct gross to net and your great-sounding muscle car sbc has LESS hp, LESS mpg, LESS torque than the stock 5.3L in a new pickup truck...which will run over 200,000mi, tow a trailer, and you can get it repaired at any GM dealer.

Given an empty engine bay or the money to make a swap just for kicks...why wouldn't you?

[andrewb70]

I'm not knocking anyone's personal preferences. I was really curious about people thought process. The beauty and the complexity of doing such conversion deserves merit. I think the swaps are sexy because it shows pure skill and experience. Maybe I should have clarified about crap. Crap was also too harsh of a word. Most people adore the old way of things for there simplicity. When getting into modern day technology its no long only checking for fuel and spark. You have dozens of sensors that can go belly up any time. I want to be able to drive and fix my car when it breaks and swapping to a modern engine that may require special diagnostic equipment may inhibit that. These old motors/cars are really the only reason we don't have to smog these beasts. I do have one confession though. I love watching how it's made dream cars and if money were no issue I could see myself putting in a v10/v12 from an exotic. My 1967 gto is far from stock. Doing a full color change,18"s , monster motor, and monster brakes. Like I said I wanted to hear people's reason. I wasn't bored or trying to stir up things just want to hear all the expert opinions.

Sean,

I'll take you at your word that you weren't trying to troll...

Those sensors that "can go belly up any time" just don't go belly up. Modern cars are built to standards that are unthinkable in the 1960s. The LS engines were designed to go 100K miles without changing the spark plugs!

I can take my GTO to the car wash, hose the engine down and drive away. Try that with your old Pontiac engine. Trust me, don't, I have done it and have spent an hour drying the distributor to get it to fire up again.

Once you understand (if you care to learn) the basics of a modern engine, it is just as easy to diagnose as "old, simple engines."

If you want to be nostalgic and drive an old car with a crappy old engine, good for you. I prefer a modern engine that I can start in -30 degree weather or drive over the continental divide with modern, crappy gas.

I drove my GTO in rain like this:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo77.jpg

With a hole in my hood ( you can see the hole in the picture).

I also drove it up mountain passes that looks like this:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo167.jpg

And crested almost 12,000 feet...

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo168.jpg

Go try that with your carburated Pontiac engine and report back.

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

Sean,

I'll take you at your word that you weren't trying to troll...

Those sensors that "can go belly up any time" just don't go belly up. Modern cars are built to standards that are unthinkable in the 1960s. The LS engines were designed to go 100K miles without changing the spark plugs!

I can take my GTO to the car wash, hose the engine down and drive away. Try that with your old Pontiac engine. Trust me, don't, I have done it and have spent an hour drying the distributor to get it to fire up again.

Once you understand (if you care to learn) the basics of a modern engine, it is just as easy to diagnose as "old, simple engines."

If you want to be nostalgic and drive an old car with a crappy old engine, good for you. I prefer a modern engine that I can start in -30 degree weather or drive over the continental divide with modern, crappy gas.

I drove my GTO in rain like this:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo77.jpg

With a hole in my hood ( you can see the hole in the picture).

I also drove it up mountain passes that looks like this:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo167.jpg

And crested almost 12,000 feet...

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo168.jpg

Go try that with your carburated Pontiac engine and report back.

Andrew

Plastic bags are your friend come power wash time! How do you think that old Pontiac would do with some self learning Holley Terminator EFI on it?....I gotta be honest I'm really leaning this direction.

[Gratefuldiver]

I guess an argument can made about reliability or parts availability. Although I think any old engine can be built to be just as reliable. Or it could be an easy way to get drop in performance vs taking the engine to the machine shop like you did in the old days. As long as its a Chevy in a Chevy or Mopar in a Mopar I don't really care . What I hate is when I see a Chevy in a Pontiac. It may take a little extra money but a Pontiac can be built to be just as reliable and bad ass as any LS and will have a **** load of more torque.


Edit

I see a few good arguments in this thread after reading it but not enough to change my stubborn view. Ive washed my engine and never had issues starting it back up, but I don't run a stock distributer. I can add EFI and drive through and mountains like a modern LS engine or stop and make jet changes. I can get an aluminum block to match the weight of a LS block. Again I don't care either way what people do, an LS engine in a Pontiac is just not my thing. A Chevy, hell ya.

Let the bashing begin lol

[nokones]

I agree, I am not a LS fan either. I have nothing against the LS and they are great motors for the late models not the early models. I have three cars with LS motors and they are great motors. I am kind of an old school guy. My engine builder tried to get me to drop in a LS into my 89 Corvette and I said no. I didn't want to go through the conversion and spend money on non-horsepower parts just to do the conversion so I bought a Brodix block for the engine build. It is my opinion that the Brodix block will handle a lot more horsepower than a LS block. It may weigh a couple pounds more than the LS but, I can find other areas to save the weight in the same general area.

The parts for an old school SBC are still plentiful.

[andrewb70]

I guess an argument can made about reliability or parts availability. Although I think any old engine can be built to be just as reliable. Or it could be an easy way to get drop in performance vs taking the engine to the machine shop like you did in the old days. As long as its a Chevy in a Chevy or Mopar in a Mopar I don't really care . What I hate is when I see a Chevy in a Pontiac. It may take a little extra money but a Pontiac can be built to be just as reliable and bad ass as any LS and will have a **** load of more torque.


Edit

I see a few good arguments in this thread after reading it but not enough to change my stubborn view. Ive washed my engine and never had issues starting it back up, but I don't run a stock distributer. I can add EFI and drive through and mountains like a modern LS engine or stop and make jet changes. I can get an aluminum block to match the weight of a LS block. Again I don't care either way what people do, an LS engine in a Pontiac is just not my thing. A Chevy, hell ya.

Let the bashing begin lol

So people that own a Buick, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile just have to suck it up and use 60 year old technology?

I see many fans of older engine say "well, you can build a Pontiac engine to be just as reliable and as (fill in the blank) as a LS engine." I actually want to see this mythical engine. Has anyone actually done it? I have talked to a couple of very smart people that have attempted to do it, but in the end they were left unsatisfied and are now doing a LS swap.

I promise I am not trying to be a smart ass. I really would like to see someone that has put together a 500HP Pontiac engine that has EFI, doesn't leak oil, and is as reliable as a LS. Please post a link to a build thread, on any forum, where someone has done this.

Andrew

[srh3trinity]

I guess an argument can made about reliability or parts availability. Although I think any old engine can be built to be just as reliable. Or it could be an easy way to get drop in performance vs taking the engine to the machine shop like you did in the old days. As long as its a Chevy in a Chevy or Mopar in a Mopar I don't really care . What I hate is when I see a Chevy in a Pontiac. It may take a little extra money but a Pontiac can be built to be just as reliable and bad ass as any LS and will have a **** load of more torque.


Edit

I see a few good arguments in this thread after reading it but not enough to change my stubborn view. Ive washed my engine and never had issues starting it back up, but I don't run a stock distributer. I can add EFI and drive through and mountains like a modern LS engine or stop and make jet changes. I can get an aluminum block to match the weight of a LS block. Again I don't care either way what people do, an LS engine in a Pontiac is just not my thing. A Chevy, hell ya.

Let the bashing begin lol

So, the way I see it is, Pontiac fans have at least 4 LSx engine options available to them. LS1 from a 98-02 Formula or Trans Am or the 2004 GTO. LS2 from the later GTO's. L76 from the G8 GT and the LS3 from the G8 GXP. I chose the LS3 for mine. Pure Poncho power in my Firebird. Now the Buick and Olds guys can't make that same argument.

[71maroesteban]

Ls is life!

[Nicks67GTO]

So people that own a Buick, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile just have to suck it up and use 60 year old technology?

I see many fans of older engine say "well, you can build a Pontiac engine to be just as reliable and as (fill in the blank) as a LS engine." I actually want to see this mythical engine. Has anyone actually done it? I have talked to a couple of very smart people that have attempted to do it, but in the end they were left unsatisfied and are now doing a LS swap.

I promise I am not trying to be a smart ass. I really would like to see someone that has put together a 500HP Pontiac engine that has EFI, doesn't leak oil, and is as reliable as a LS. Please post a link to a build thread, on any forum, where someone has done this.

Andrew

Posted this exact question on PY a few minutes ago looking.

On that note my POS $800 dollar 455/6x4/performer/Q jet/HEI has been pretty reliable. I wouldn't hesitate to jump in it and drive 500 miles. I'm guessing iv'e probably put 5-8K miles on it over the last 3 years and its never had any real issues. Iv'e set the valves once, changed the oil in the spring. That's it. I thought I had an oil leak but it ended up being the tranny. When I put it in I used the Viton 2 piece BOP rear main seal and 1 piece pan gasket. That seemed to work well. Its pretty darn reliable but again its nothing too fast maybe 375 hp and 450 ft lbs at a guess? I must confess though....I did have my aftermarket starter break internally and it ended up shearing teeth off my flywheel.....that sucked but it wasn't the engine that was the issue.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/02/4323769847_7dc3a25630_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/7A5s8Z)






which on is your son?.. the one doing the air looks like the homie Ben (whom I skated with last night) that recently had a motorcycle crash.

or the other guy with a great pose.. lol!

[LS7 Z/28]

It may take a little extra money but a Pontiac can be built to be just as reliable and bad ass as any LS and will have a **** load of more torque.

Dude spend some more time talking to Engine builders who build LS engines and people who own one, you will change your opinion. Most LS engines built by a reputable builder will have an incredible amount of torque throughout the RPM range that your old Pontiac will never touch. LS engines are able to get away with running higher compression, can make more power and flow better than your old engine ever will. You will spend 3 times as much trying to accomplish anything close with your old engine running on equal fuel.

When your old engine fires on command, idles smoothly at 900 RPM, gets 20+ MPG, Runs 11.5:1 Compression on 91 Octane, has incredible throttle response, and has a power curve like a Tennessee mountain; well then you've really got something. There's no need to be stubborn, GM is GM. It's a great day to be into hotrodding with all of the choices available.

[Richard454]

which on is your son?.. the one doing the air looks like the homie Ben (whom I skated with last night) that recently had a motorcycle crash.

or the other guy with a great pose.. lol!

My son- in the air!!! Yep that's Ben. Small world!!!





There's no need to be stubborn, GM is GM. It's a great day to be into hotrodding with all of the choices available.

You are RIGHT!!!

BTW- the alternator is off a Geo Storm..... Throttle linkage from a Mercedes Benz...Cupholder - out of a Lexus....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/16476900467_31736a80c0_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/r71qsP)DSCN2523.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/r71qsP) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/16683167802_8b66d23074_b-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rqeAyb)DSCN2514-1.jpg~original (https://flic.kr/p/rqeAyb) by richardhayes454 (https://www.flickr.com/people/123721740@N04/), on Flickr

[Nicks67GTO]

Dude spend some more time talking to Engine builders who build LS engines and people who own one, you will change your opinion. Most LS engines built by a reputable builder will have an incredible amount of torque throughout the RPM range that your old Pontiac will never touch. LS engines are able to get away with running higher compression, can make more power and flow better than your old engine ever will. You will spend 3 times as much trying to accomplish anything close with your old engine running on equal fuel.

When your old engine fires on command, idles smoothly at 900 RPM, gets 20+ MPG, Runs 11.5:1 Compression on 91 Octane, has incredible throttle response, and has a power curve like a Tennessee mountain; well then you've really got something. There's no need to be stubborn, GM is GM. It's a great day to be into hotrodding with all of the choices available.

Now to be fair what you just described is typical of the basic recipe for an aluminum headed, hydro roller, 4.25" stroke 400 build. They routinely put out 550+hp and 600+ ft lbs of tq under 5,800 RPM. The cam specs are reasonable, 11:1 compression, 91 octane, Kauffman heads. The LS is always going to win on MPG but the Pontiac TQ curve looks like a table top on these combos and they idle at 850 RPM with a carb.

[raustinss]

Nick
Yes BOP motors build crazy torque but, call a spade a spade if those motors were so great they would still be around. On average you will not beat the weight,performance,fuel economy etc etc etc of a ls motor. Wonderful you have gobs of torque but you will not get the vechicle dynamics that you would with a ls motor. Even with a little less torque don't tell me the idea of better braking,acceleration and, handling don't sound appealing. Let alone being able to plug it in and diagnose any issues. The fuel economy long term reliably, higher rpm range,availability of parts

For a real quick comparison take a 403 hp 6.2 liter form a Denali try and tell me that a stock 455 is a all round better motor then a stock Denali motor. I don't think so. That is before any mods your motor would need ported heads a cam and some oil system upgrades just to start. The Denali motor will outperform it with a simple cam swap..525-550 hp and probably around 540 torque

[Nicks67GTO]

Nick
Yes BOP motors build crazy torque but, call a spade a spade if those motors were so great they would still be around. On average you will not beat the weight,performance,fuel economy etc etc etc of a ls motor. Wonderful you have gobs of torque but you will not get the vechicle dynamics that you would with a ls motor. Even with a little less torque don't tell me the idea of better braking,acceleration and, handling don't sound appealing. Let alone being able to plug it in and diagnose any issues. The fuel economy long term reliably, higher rpm range,availability of parts

For a real quick comparison take a 403 hp 6.2 liter form a Denali try and tell me that a stock 455 is a all round better motor then a stock Denali motor. I don't think so. That is before any mods your motor would need ported heads a cam and some oil system upgrades just to start. The Denali motor will outperform it with a simple cam swap..525-550 hp and probably around 540 torque

I was only trying to point out that you can build a pretty sweet Poncho engine these days. Its not like it was 20 years ago. The aftermarket is thriving with new stuff. Most folks who aren't BOP guys have 0 clue that you can make killer streetable power with stroked stock block 400 engines.

Comparing a new Denali engine and a smogger 455 isn't even a comparison. 50 years brings a lot of tech and advances and I think we all know what the superior engine is in reliability and mileage. I think the LS is obviously a great choice for a lot of guys and I 100% understand why even die hard Pontiac guys stick them in their cars. But if we are going to call a spade a spade....lets all be honest and say its not like this is some cure all, wonder swap that costs close to nothing and has 0 headaches. We are 20 years into swapping these engines into cars and they still have issues like driveshaft angles, oil pan clearance etc and its not a cheap weekend endeavor for most guys. I asked in another thread what it would cost for me to properly stuff an LSA into my 67' GTO. The answer was 7-10K. I can build an entire forged stroker assembly, aluminum headed, hydraulic roller, Pontiac, carb to pan for that much. Of course, if I wanted an LSA I would still have to buy the engine on top of it all. Everyone keeps saying the LS thing is cheap. I don't see anything cheap about it. Maybe im missing something.

[andrewb70]

Nick,

LS swaps can be as cheap or as expensive as you want to make them. I did my whole swap for about $10k, including a zero mile engine, upgraded cam, springs, titanium retainers, and pushrods. That was going from an EFI BBC to a, what is now basically a LS3.

The LSA adds more complexity because of the need for a head exchanger and pump, etc...

Andrew

[raustinss]

I've bought a LS7 from a Z06 cost me 4500$ . A fresh rebuild and rework the heads...estimate of about 6000$ . There is no way I could build a BB Chevy get at least 625$ hp and have the trouble free piece of mind for that kind of money. For the record that's a fully dressed engine too..pan to intake

[raustinss]

I've bought a LS7 from a Z06 cost me 4500$ . A fresh rebuild and rework the heads...estimate of about 6000$ . There is no way I could build a BB Chevy get at least 625$ hp and have the trouble free piece of mind for that kind of money. For the record that's a fully dressed engine too..pan to intake

Now as for oil pan issues over drive shift issues. That has nothing to do with the motor it has to do with a lack of planning by the person doing the swap. There are many companies which produce oil pans which will work it certain cars with certain sub frames. With how the aftermarket is I would say it's damn near impossible to make a "universal" oil pan. There are too many models,makes,years of cars then start tossing aftermarket sub frames or full frames...
If you want a cheap ls swap look for a first gen ls...they can be had quite cheap...or look at truck engines....tons of them out there

[MonzaRacer]

I never understood the idea. I understand the cool factor but price to reward just isn't there. I see 500hp ls2 for 6-8k. Not to mention the huge cost/time to install. People also forget that these modern day motors by the big three are crap. The external components are crap too. Tons of reliability problems. Why not install a Toyota v8 or the similar?

So you nev4er understood about swapping in newer engines We now dont take this wrong, but while agree in certain ways with your argument, your reasoning is off.
LSx DO make good power, hold up well under abuse they do take more money to install. While I personally have no want to use an LSx namely cause I dont have a lot of parts, and the cost, especially specifics that fit body styles.
My usual projects are not really mainstream.
Now me I watch lots guys with perfectly good sbc/bbc dump them for LSx, more power to them but I also see these guys dump perfectly good engines/drivelines JUST to switch.
See my reasoning for not changing is needing custom parts, and/or having to have better work area to fab my own parts.
For more mainstream cars going LSx had better be for a good reason other wise your just spending cash for flash.
I have built many engines, made good power from most combos with good luck.
As for saying "these modern day engines by the big three are carp" well your so full it on that.
LSx, Mods, Hemis, Magnums are all well designed packages that do take well to tuning and mods.
And actually most NEWER engine designs are making more power stock than older engines did.
Now for the bad part, those packages take more complex controllers, ignitions, headers, newer trans that also require controllers.
MY biggest issue is all the car owners dumping running drivelines just to "upgrade'.
My Monza is gonna be patterned after "The Grenade" from over on theturboforums.com except my short block is 54 yrs old, the heads are atleast 50 yrs old(double humps set up with 202/160, screw in studs and guide plates and cut for big springs).
Now while I will use LT1 FI intake and DIS from a Northstar V8. Probably gonna run Megasquirt.
Unless I find a 700R4 or 2004R right I probably will run my TCI TH350.
Estimated power will be in the 550-650 range at full boost.
All going in 77 Monza.
As for what external components being crap, what reliability problems. As a tech probably most issues \i see are water pumps which fail from system neglect, and alternators maybe. but I have yet to see major failures in parts.
And most engines and trannys are so far not having large issues.

As for your commenting on using a Toyota V8, well let me tell you those ARE failure prone POS engines. I interviewed for a dealership job of doing engine swaps in Toyota trucks. The only thing in Nissan Titans have more failures than even Toyotas.

[Bonehead]

This still makes me giggle.

[Removed user as requested]

Since the topic was pointless and the writer irrelevant...

I wanted to ask something that HAS a point.

Since LSx engines are so great that the OP had to invent something against it...

What would someone do with a Mopar? I would never buy an LSx engine for Mopar... but what Mopar engine is good if you do not go the 426+ ci Hemi's for straight out power? Do they have anything reliable, comparable to that of the LSx?

[rickpaw]

....
I promise I am not trying to be a smart ass. I really would like to see someone that has put together a 500HP Pontiac engine that has EFI, doesn't leak oil, and is as reliable as a LS. Please post a link to a build thread, on any forum, where someone has done this.

Andrew

Andrew, you forgot to add "at the same cost as an LS".




Comparing a new Denali engine and a smogger 455 isn't even a comparison. 50 years brings a lot of tech and advances and I think we all know what the superior engine is in reliability and mileage.

Nicks67GTO, you just answered the OP's question in this sentence. Modern engines are just better in everything.

Someone mentioned going with alu. block for a Pontiac, in order to keep the weight comparable to an LS engine. Last I checked (1hr ago) an al MR-1 block cost close to $5k. A crate LS3 long block can be had for $7k.

I spent $6k rebuilding my Pontiac 400. At the end of the day, it still did not run any better than my junk yard 5.3. Grant the torque was there, but it ran out of steam by 4k rpm.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/03/YYDvV96l-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/03/9QcDEqMl-1.jpg

guess whats in it... lol!

see how hes enjoying life?... LOL!

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I don't think anyone on here is saying the old Poncho's are in any way superior than LS engines. I can see both sides, and will be doing so with my 71 F-body siblings. The Firebird is staying a 455 because I just grew up with Pontiac Blue, and something about it being under the hood just looks right. Plus I want to use the Formula Ram Air setup. Sometimes it's not about the easy way out anymore, and it seems to stand out in Pro-Touring anymore you need to run something other than an LS, like a BOP engine. I'll be doing what I can on my 455, it won't be cheap, but it's not that hard to build a fun fuel injected classic engine. I figure my Firebird is too nose heavy to be a serious contender anyways, I'll build it how I want. My 71 Camaro however, that will be getting an LS of some sort, being my more serious car.

[rickpaw]

^^^ this. After all, it's your car/your money. Do whatever that makes YOU happy. My friend is sticking an LS into his Mustang (with me doing the work). We discussed going the Coyote route, but it cost a way more than an LS would cost. After all, it's his car/money, I'm just helping him spend.

At a car show one time, one guy gave me grief because I did an LS swap in my Firebird. My response was: last I checked, it's my car.

[andrewb70]

Andrew, you forgot to add "at the same cost as an LS".


I'll even settle for + %25 cost. I've just heard talked to a few people that I consider competent that have gone down this road and in the end they were not happy with the results. This was with EFI, etc...

Andrew

[mmosley]

Since the topic was pointless and the writer irrelevant...

I wanted to ask something that HAS a point.

Since LSx engines are so great that the OP had to invent something against it...

What would someone do with a Mopar? I would never buy an LSx engine for Mopar... but what Mopar engine is good if you do not go the 426+ ci Hemi's for straight out power? Do they have anything reliable, comparable to that of the LSx?

Lot of people are doing 6.1L Gen III Hemi swaps.

I am going w/ something more "old school". A 440 with a super stock 6 pack intake. But it will be EFI and has a T56 Magnum 6 speed.

109726

[mmosley]

guess whats in it... lol!

see how hes enjoying life?... LOL!

It has an LS, of course, and the Corvette suspension and brakes. It fits the formula everyone expects for Pro Touring. Cool, yes. My cup of tea, no - I think it looses some of its flavor. I wouldn't mind driving it around the track a little!

Back to the OP. Simple - why do we put more modern engines / components in our cars? Same thing we have been doing since the first guy dropped a flathead Ford in a T bucket and took the fenders off. It is called Hot Rodding plain and simple. Take something better / new / cool / old and different and put it all together. Might as well ask why someone would put a blown Hemi in an Anglia. Why the hell not!

Each of us has our preferences and taste. I am putting an old school Mopar 440 in mine w/ new aluminum heads and a tunnel ram. But - I am going with EFI, computer controlled ignition, T56 six speed, traction control, keyless ignition, 18" wheels and tires (may go 19" rear...), 4 wheel disc brakes, power steering, AC, a nice stereo w/ Bluetooth, and some significant chassis and suspension upgrades. When I am done it will be one thing for sure - my car.

[vintageracer]

What would someone do with a Mopar? Do they have anything reliable, comparable to that of the LSx?

NO!

Mopar always has been slow to technology, behind the times and still is!

Maybe the Hellcat is sign of change!

[sccacuda]

Since the topic was pointless and the writer irrelevant...

I wanted to ask something that HAS a point.

Since LSx engines are so great that the OP had to invent something against it...

What would someone do with a Mopar? I would never buy an LSx engine for Mopar... but what Mopar engine is good if you do not go the 426+ ci Hemi's for straight out power? Do they have anything reliable, comparable to that of the LSx?

The GEN III Hemi engine architecture actually has more power potential than the LS platform, but Mopar's suffer from lack of aftermarket support. That is changing now, and the performance parts are more readily available, albeit more expensive than a comparable LS. With Holley's new EFI control for GEN III Hemi's, this should pave the way for more engine swaps and more performance potential.

And to your comment on the old school GEN II 426, a comparable Gen III stroked to 426 will out perform the old elephant, with less weight and a smaller package. Technology driven efficiency is a wonderful thing for modern engines.

[raustinss]

The GEN III Hemi engine architecture actually has more power potential than the LS platform, but Mopar's suffer from lack of aftermarket support. That is changing now, and the performance parts are more readily available, albeit more expensive than a comparable LS. With Holley's new EFI control for GEN III Hemi's, this should pave the way for more engine swaps and more performance potential.

And to your comment on the old school GEN II 426, a comparable Gen III stroked to 426 will out perform the old elephant, with less weight and a smaller package. Technology driven efficiency is a wonderful thing for modern engines.

How is the architecture of the Hemi make it have more power potential..

[raustinss]

The GEN III Hemi engine architecture actually has more power potential than the LS platform, but Mopar's suffer from lack of aftermarket support. That is changing now, and the performance parts are more readily available, albeit more expensive than a comparable LS. With Holley's new EFI control for GEN III Hemi's, this should pave the way for more engine swaps and more performance potential.

And to your comment on the old school GEN II 426, a comparable Gen III stroked to 426 will out perform the old elephant, with less weight and a smaller package. Technology driven efficiency is a wonderful thing for modern engines.

How is the architecture of the Hemi make it have more power potential..

[sccacuda]

How is the architecture of the Hemi make it have more power potential..

Simple, its a splayed valve head. The port design can be optimized for maximum flow and velocity without restrictions. The LS Wedge will always be an inline valve config with limitations. A ported factory Eagle head will flow the same as the best aftermarket LS head. Their is one aftermarket Hemi head being made and it flows in the 450 CFM range ported at .700. The raised cam tunnel is also a huge advantage over the LS.

[andrewb70]

The modern Hemi engines always seem to do very well in the Engine Master Challenge competition. I know that Holley is working hard to add a lot of functionality to there EFI systems in order to work seamlessly with both modern Hemi and Ford engines.

Andrew

[Removed user as requested]

I was always under the impression that the 'new' Hemi is not "Really" a Hemi. As in, the way they are designed internally, they are not really a HEMI-spherical design chamber or something like the old ones were. I don't know why I thought that, but I guess 5+ years ago I heard it from a lot of mopar people how a real hemi is the 426/427/528/540/572ci, while the Modern Hemi is not 'really' a Hemi and I wondered why.

Can someone clarify that?

If the goal was to buy say a 528ci Hemi with 700 Horsepower. Alloy Heads, Alloy Block, Alloy everything... What modern Hemi can compare to all that torque and flat power curve of a 528ci? Guess im asking what kind of people are the modern Hemi's for and what kind of guys would be better off with the big beasts? (application here)

[sccacuda]

I was always under the impression that the 'new' Hemi is not "Really" a Hemi. As in, the way they are designed internally, they are not really a HEMI-spherical design chamber or something like the old ones were. I don't know why I thought that, but I guess 5+ years ago I heard it from a lot of mopar people how a real hemi is the 426/427/528/540/572ci, while the Modern Hemi is not 'really' a Hemi and I wondered why.

Can someone clarify that?

Actually the first Chrysler Hemi's were used in WWII. The first Gen in automobiles was in the 50's (325-392) and the second Gen in the 60's (426). The third Gen being the modern Hemi from 2003-up. The combustion chamber is hemispherical with the sides closed off, so it's often referred to as a semi-hemi. This was done to reduce combustion chamber volume. The old 426 with it's true hemispherical chamber is huge and takes a domed piston to get a decent compression ratio. Engineers have figured out since the 426 dinosaur (okay, elephant) was designed, that having a big chunk of piston in the flame front and crowding the chamber is not real good for efficiency (okay, call it emissions, same thing).


If the goal was to buy say a 528ci Hemi with 700 Horsepower. Alloy Heads, Alloy Block, Alloy everything... What modern Hemi can compare to all that torque and flat power curve of a 528ci? Guess im asking what kind of people are the modern Hemi's for and what kind of guys would be better off with the big beasts? (application here)

A Gen III with 100 less cubes will do that same power and have the drivability and mileage of a new car....that's what for. Ease of maintenance, 100k mileage, awesome power and drivability. Big breast optional.

[sccacuda]

Just snapped a pic for you of an engine in the shop. This is the combustion chamber:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/IMG_2156_zpsarcdr5np-1.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_2156_zpsarcdr5np.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/IMG_2154_zps2l48m4r7-1.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_2154_zps2l48m4r7.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/IMG_2161_zpszcuwroiq-1.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_2161_zpszcuwroiq.jpg.html)

And what happens when you boost a STOCK 5.7 (that's 348 cubes) engine to 800 HP on a regular basis....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/IMG_0043_3_zpsr0tapdtb-1.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_0043_3_zpsr0tapdtb.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/03/IMG_0042_2_zpsrblfl6px-1.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/340cuda/media/IMG_0042_2_zpsrblfl6px.jpg.html)

That chip from the skirt is where the counterweight was hitting. This engine still ran, just knocked from the aforementioned contact and was down a cylinder on power.

Modern engines....

[High Plains Mopars]

guess whats in it... lol!

see how hes enjoying life?... LOL!

Glad he can still smile after putting three different LSs in it. Shoulda stuck with the Hemi.

[raustinss]

I was always under the impression that the 'new' Hemi is not "Really" a Hemi. As in, the way they are designed internally, they are not really a HEMI-spherical design chamber or something like the old ones were. I don't know why I thought that, but I guess 5+ years ago I heard it from a lot of mopar people how a real hemi is the 426/427/528/540/572ci, while the Modern Hemi is not 'really' a Hemi and I wondered why.

Can someone clarify that?

If the goal was to buy say a 528ci Hemi with 700 Horsepower. Alloy Heads, Alloy Block, Alloy everything... What modern Hemi can compare to all that torque and flat power curve of a 528ci? Guess im asking what kind of people are the modern Hemi's for and what kind of guys would be better off with the big beasts? (application here)

Your and I both thought that hence my question. I also thought the statement about engine architecture was more about the block then the heads

[Removed user as requested]

So what am I supposed to get out of that...

New Hemi was designed to be more emission efficient and that it is not really a Hemi designed engine either.

So wheres that leave things? A hemi or LS or Ford, what is the difference? What made Mopar different and feared was the fact they had the Hemi. Now they have nothing different to anyone else?

In old cars emissions dont matter here... so putting that aside... isn't the emission factor a compromise on actual power/torque/curve output?

[High Plains Mopars]

Oh, its still a Hemi. It is not a full dome like the Gen 2 426. It is more shallow and the sides pinch in to create quench pads to accelerate the burn, but it still has opposed valves and a dome like any other Hemi out there. Even though that dome is more shallow than previous Mopar Hemis, it is still more of a dome than what is in the LS or Coyote. Don't get sucked into the classic Mopar mantra that it isn't a Hemi because it doesn't have pistons that weight a 1000 grams each to accomodate the huge dome required for high compression in a Gen 2.

Don't loose sight of the fact that horsepower, as well as emissions reduction, are all about efficiency. The more efficiently you use the thermal energy of the fuel, the more power it will produce and the less waste (emissions) you create as a by product of the combustion efficiency. This is how modern engines are able to produce power numbers out of 5.3 to 6 liters that used to take 7.5 liters of classic big block to produce. Efficiency. Now they are moving into a lot of other changes and improvements with variable vale timing, dual cam timing, etc that are further improving efficiencies based on engine load, but that isn't a core discussion of what happens to a lot of cars on this board.

FWIW, the LS in my wife's Suburban doesn't have nearly the fun factor of nailing the throttle as the Hemi in my Ram. Length and weight wise, both vehicles aren't that far apart, but one out accelerates the other by a pretty fair margin.

[Removed user as requested]

Oh, its still a Hemi. It is not a full dome like the Gen 2 426. It is more shallow and the sides pinch in to create quench pads to accelerate the burn, but it still has opposed valves and a dome like any other Hemi out there. Even though that dome is more shallow than previous Mopar Hemis, it is still more of a dome than what is in the LS or Coyote. Don't get sucked into the classic Mopar mantra that it isn't a Hemi because it doesn't have pistons that weight a 1000 grams each to accomodate the huge dome required for high compression in a Gen 2.

Don't loose sight of the fact that horsepower, as well as emissions reduction, are all about efficiency. The more efficiently you use the thermal energy of the fuel, the more power it will produce and the less waste (emissions) you create as a by product of the combustion efficiency. This is how modern engines are able to produce power numbers out of 5.3 to 6 liters that used to take 7.5 liters of classic big block to produce. Efficiency. Now they are moving into a lot of other changes and improvements with variable vale timing, dual cam timing, etc that are further improving efficiencies based on engine load, but that isn't a core discussion of what happens to a lot of cars on this board.

FWIW, the LS in my wife's Suburban doesn't have nearly the fun factor of nailing the throttle as the Hemi in my Ram. Length and weight wise, both vehicles aren't that far apart, but one out accelerates the other by a pretty fair margin.

so how come 2000+ horsepowered engines are the old style Hemi if the new ones are much more efficient at making power? Wouldn't they also be 2000+ horsepower?

I mean I see it this way. I can buy a 572ci hemi (old style), alloy block heads etc, which is a fair bit lighter than the cast iron version. It will easily make 900 Horsepower, without any power adders on regular 92 (or here, 98 octane) petrol.

So instead, we buy a Gen 3 Hemi (I read there is a gen 4?) - How on earth will I get 900 horsepower, pump fuel, idle all day long like that 572?

We are talking a street engine here... the lower the power the better and the more friendly on the road.. the 572 will be sweet to drive and have all the power on tap as needed. The gen3/4 however? How would it work out?

What about sound? Do the modern ones sound like the old ones? I mean Chrysler have a unique type of rumble that I have not seen in any other car... will it still have that or will it start sounding like a chev.

[LemonTwisted]

so how come 2000+ horsepowered engines are the old style Hemi if the new ones are much more efficient at making power? Wouldn't they also be 2000+ horsepower?

I mean I see it this way. I can buy a 572ci hemi (old style), alloy block heads etc, which is a fair bit lighter than the cast iron version. It will easily make 900 Horsepower, without any power adders on regular 92 (or here, 98 octane) petrol.

So instead, we buy a Gen 3 Hemi (I read there is a gen 4?) - How on earth will I get 900 horsepower, pump fuel, idle all day long like that 572?

We are talking a street engine here... the lower the power the better and the more friendly on the road.. the 572 will be sweet to drive and have all the power on tap as needed. The gen3/4 however? How would it work out?

What about sound? Do the modern ones sound like the old ones? I mean Chrysler have a unique type of rumble that I have not seen in any other car... will it still have that or will it start sounding like a chev.

You're not gonna idle around all day with 900 HP naturally aspirated gen 2 Hemi unless its running on alcohol. The top fuel nitromethane motors are all purpose built pieces that have evolved over the last 50 years to be able to support 5000+ estimated horsepower and are nothing like a factory Chrysler gen 2 Hemi. You could build a nice gen 3/4 Hemi with a turbo setup that would produce 900 HP and idle all day for far less than a 900 HP gen 2 Hemi.

[mmosley]

Uhmm... yes, it is a Hemi. Valves are on opposite sides of the head and all that. So let me get this right. It is kind of like an LS but has much better flowing heads, a raised cam, and shaft mounted rockers? Now that I said that, where is the popcorn? I think this thread just took a turn a few posts back... not sure if it was for the better.

[Nicks67GTO]

I guess I kind of look at it like this. We have gotten to a point where hp/tq is so easy to make that 1000 hp builds aren't that uncommon. Honestly though, unless you are drag racing with a dedicated chassis..... who cares. It's a smoke show. Like the NRE engines. They are super cool but I have no use for a car that will constantly break lose at 45+ mph. So that brings me back to my point.....new Hemi....LS....LT?.....Ford Mod....who gives a **** they are all so good anymore that with a simple cam swap and tune you're almost to the limit of actual useable street hp for most guys......

[vanzuuk1]

At the risk of being labeled a newbie, what is trolling?




Trolling is when someone posts to start an argument, like that family member that cant attend thanksgiving without starting an argument instead of just eating the damn turkey.


Sometimes the walk around car shows and ask if numbers match or tell their wife the car they had in high school would blow yours away.

[xavier296]

Sometimes the walk around car shows and ask if numbers match or tell their wife the car they had in high school would blow yours away.

Man, I hate that. There is a guy in my mustang club who says things like "You could have made a lot more hp if you....blah blah blah." I ask what he drives, and he responds, "2006 V6 Mustang."

[BanditDarble]

So people that own a Buick, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile just have to suck it up and use 60 year old technology?

I see many fans of older engine say "well, you can build a Pontiac engine to be just as reliable and as (fill in the blank) as a LS engine." I actually want to see this mythical engine. Has anyone actually done it? I have talked to a couple of very smart people that have attempted to do it, but in the end they were left unsatisfied and are now doing a LS swap.

I promise I am not trying to be a smart ass. I really would like to see someone that has put together a 500HP Pontiac engine that has EFI, doesn't leak oil, and is as reliable as a LS. Please post a link to a build thread, on any forum, where someone has done this.

Andrew

I don't know Poncho's well, but if you are throwing Holley EFI in the ring it wouldn't be difficult to have that power with a Olds 455. I have one with a carb that's as in the ballpark of 500HP, drives out very well, idles at 850 RPM, runs the factory AC, and it doesn't leak a drop of oil. It doesn't use "60 year old" cam technology however. Cam specs look more like a LS6 (LS style, not old school 454) with a lot more lift.

A Poncho would be easier with all the aftermarket parts available.

Saying that, a LS is generally easier, cheaper and will get vastly better mileage than the old school engines. No arguing that. But to say you can't get power AND reliabillity out of the old stuff is ridiculous.

[raustinss]

I don't know Poncho's well, but if you are throwing Holley EFI in the ring it wouldn't be difficult to have that power with a Olds 455. I have one with a carb that's as in the ballpark of 500HP, drives out very well, idles at 850 RPM, runs the factory AC, and it doesn't leak a drop of oil. It doesn't use "60 year old" cam technology however. Cam specs look more like a LS6 (LS style, not old school 454) with a lot more lift.

A Poncho would be easier with all the aftermarket parts available.

Saying that, a LS is generally easier, cheaper and will get vastly better mileage than the old school engines. No arguing that. But to say you can't get power AND reliabillity out of the old stuff is ridiculous.


No it is not ridiculous, a ls engine will easily put out more power and be more efficient when it has 200,000 miles on it then any BOP engine with 200,000 miles. If that engine is still together at that point.

[BanditDarble]

No it is not ridiculous, a ls engine will easily put out more power and be more efficient when it has 200,000 miles on it then any BOP engine with 200,000 miles. If that engine is still together at that point.

Loads of PT rides out there with 200K miles on them...ie;Specious argument

btw-I have seen, firsthand and right here on these boards, plenty of grenaded LS engines. For high horsepower track duty they are not much, if at all, more reliable than a properly prepared old school engine. Physics don't care what name you put on a design.

Do I want a built old school engine in my daily driver? Nope. The LS pulls my truck around just fine.

Am I against a LS in a 69 Camaro or some other ride? Not at all. All I am saying is the old engines are not as bad as some make them out to be if they are assembled correctly.

[MonzaRacer]

Really doesn't matter if its old pinch or new LSx, they all need built for set use. Just much cheaper to build many older engine. Namely drop in hei and decent carb. Off shelf headers. Certain body styles with LSx will need expensive custom headers. Plus ignition fuel system etc.
Many people can build cars but many are catalog builders, not scroungers and adapters.

[jaybee]

I think it's fair to say that if you build an old motor with modern internals, up to date cam specs, and current-tech machining techniques and tolerances, you'll get a better old-school engine than they ever anticipated at the time.

It still won't match the state of the art ports and combustion chamber of a current generation engine...but it'll be a darned good motor.

[raustinss]

I think it's fair to say that if you build an old motor with modern internals, up to date cam specs, and current-tech machining techniques and tolerances, you'll get a better old-school engine than they ever anticipated at the time.

It still won't match the state of the art ports and combustion chamber of a current generation engine...but it'll be a darned good motor.

I agree, what I was referring to was stock old school vs stock ls, and then taking the two and building them up. I still don't think the old school motor would last nearly as long, efficient, power levels etc

[jaybee]

While they very in power potential the old engines don't have the superior heads of an ls, both in terms of good flow with high port velocity and in terms of being almost dead even from cylinder to cylinder. As a result they're much more "on the edge" at similar power levels. Not only that but things like the crank and rods are built for those lower power levels too, so longevity suffers as you build them up. As an extreme example you'll need to spend serious coin to get a Ford Flathead over 250hp, and you'll do it often.

[Nicks67GTO]

No it is not ridiculous, a ls engine will easily put out more power and be more efficient when it has 200,000 miles on it then any BOP engine with 200,000 miles. If that engine is still together at that point.

Ok let's be serious. I'm willing to bet that 99% of all the guys who participate in the pro touring/restomod stuff will never put anywhere remotely near 200k miles on their hotrod so that point is fairly moot. If you want to argue reliability you should probably argue it under 50k miles. I doubt most guys will put more than 50k miles on their car without a refresh of some kind. Not saying there aren't a few but come on.....

[hotrodalex]

Ok let's be serious. I'm willing to bet that 99% of all the guys who participate in the pro touring/restomod stuff will never put anywhere remotely near 200k miles on their hotrod so that point is fairly moot. If you want to argue reliability you should probably argue it under 50k miles. I doubt most guys will put more than 50k miles on their car without a refresh of some kind. Not saying there aren't a few but come on.....

My car is built to be a daily driver and I still don't expect to go over 50k without a refresh.

[MonzaRacer]

Seriously, rebuild at 50k?
Geez guys I watched Marty over on theturboforums.com beat a 150k worn out 357sbc, cast crank, cast pistons, stock rods. 9.75 in 1/4 with 991 1.74 sized intake valve truck heads, comp 268h can out of trash can, recycled 85/86 gn turbos, freightliner intercooler on a tuned port fi setup.
With 487s, te44 turbos it pushed to 9.37.
All on stock, workout junk and never folded a rod, or spun a bearing.
And never blew up per se.
I have watched LSx pushed much less, abused much less and scatter so bad nothing was salvageable. And still cost more to adapt, more to build/ tune than older engines.
I have watched SBC,BBC, sbf, Pontiac,Olds, etc all built.
And many make ludicrous power. And I have guys pushing SBC, with modified hei dist, old school heads, headers,Intakes from 25 or more years older, older carbs and such. They are running low 5 second times and on what most call junk.
Now we also have guys running new engines. Going just as fast. I'll bet LSx sdoesnt live over 50 years with minimal changes such as SBC.
Run what ya bring, and hope ya brung enough.
Me I'll keep pushing my junk maybe later I'll be lucky enough to score some cheap LSx parts.

[slantin_77]

I've thought long and hard about swapping out my 225 slant six in my '77 Dodge D100 and installing a 2JZ/5-speed from a Lexus IS300 that a friend of mine has...now THAT would piss off a bunch of Mopar heads (I am a HUGE Mopar guy but a modern I6 would be cool as hell IMO). Problem is, I think I'd be sacrificing reliability (C'mon, a slant six? You can't kill those things) and parts are not cheap. That is why I'm going to rebuild the 225 for boost and slap a Garrett T04 from an '87 Grand National on it and call it a day...but make it look extremely pretty for the car shows :)

[67RSRAG]

I still don't think the old school motor would last nearly as long, efficient, power levels etc

I have both. My 350 sbc was built in 89 I have 120 000 km's on it. It doesn't burn oil. it has seen 4000 rpm for most of it's life as I have a 3.90 gear and 4 speed with a 1:1. so at 65mph I am running 3500 - 4000 rpm. It still puts down 340 rwhp in it's tired state. It has been dragged and raced multiple times. Besides regular maintenance like plugs, oil, etc valve spring changes and valve adjustments (solid cam). It has never hiccuped. While my LS 2 has more power and does get better gas mileage If budget was a concern you still can't beat a 1st gen motor. There is no way my LS will last that long guaranteed!! My LS 2 spends most of it's life at 2 000 rpm if I drove it at 4 000 rpm on the highway for hours it would be in the bone yard in no time. Saying all that when my SBC dies, if ever it will get an LS for sure.

[PT Sportwagon]

While I am a purest. I do see the point of swapping in an LS. My 04 Denali has the LQ4 6.0LS in it still running great with over 200K. doesn't even leak a drop or use oil. I look at the cost for a LS swap plus the motor cost is out of the question for me now. For me I enjoy a challenge that is why I plan on building the Buick 350 in my wagon. will I get the power I could out of a LS no but I don't care.

Tim

[72BBSwinger]

This is a stupid topic....

[dhutton]

This is a stupid topic....

X2

Don

[raustinss]

Yeah I gave up awhile ago....think some people didn't see the point I was trying to make...others didn't care. Either way I'm going to go make love to a chainsaw

[andrewb70]

I guess that about wraps it up.

Andrew