running all new brake system???

[bbcmonte]

I have the body off the frame and I plan to run all new brake system. I am going to buy it part buy part due to my budget. I want to add hydoboost to my car. I plan to add a adjustable all in one proportion valve. My question is what all do I need to to update my brake system? I am going to run all new brake lines.

[130fe]

What brakes do you currently have (stock)? What are your plans for the car (street, track, combination of both)?

[bbcmonte]

I have stock disc up front and drums out back, but I am pulling all the stock parts off and going bigger disc all around

[andrewb70]

Helps to know what kind of car you have.

Andrew

[bbcmonte]

Sorry. 1970 Monte carlo

[bbcmonte]

Bump

[Hydratech®]

There are SO MANY PEOPLE that do not understand the basics... Let's go over them real fast in a way that you can understand easily. When you push on the brake pedal, you are actuating the brakes at the wheels - right? Of course... In a manual brake system, you build pressure in your master cylinder / brake lines / calipers and wheel cylinders to exert force upon your friction materials at the wheels = braking, right? The harder you press = the harder they should 'bite' - right? If you are "good" so far in your basic understanding, then we can continue further from this point (please say yes). Now having that very basic system operation in your head, let's move on to adding a further simple notion to the mix. A brake booster, whether it be a vacuum booster OR hydraulic booster does exactly that - boosts whatever your pedal effort / input may be with your foot to a higher level at the simple point of basic actuation (the brake master cylinder). Have you ever added an "amp" to your car stereo? It has it's pro's and con's, though usually adds to your enjoyment of your audio experience unless your speakers just can't handle it.

Are you following me so far? (PLEASE SAY YES) (lol?)

Sooooo, if we run with the audio comparison, nothing is better than having a bitchin' set of speakers installed that take what your head unit (radio) is capable of producing and blowing your mind with an exceptional audio experience (right?). Let me draw a direct comparison to braking here by stating that this is exactly what a manual brake actuated scenario *should* provide.

Moving forward in the discussion, most people know that they TYPICALLY need to install some high power "amps" and also at least a multichannel equalizer into their sound system to optimize overall (sound) system performance. It seems like even "Joe Sixpack" somehow knows that, right? Sooooo.... If your speakers SUCK, it doesn't matter how much power you blaze them with, as they are just going to fry - right? By contrast, if your speakers CAN handle way more power, then adding an amp / equalizer will bring a whole new level of performance into the real time levels that you experience. Are you following me so far? The same actually does apply to brakes, which is what I'm trying to bring you to understand (forgive me if I am not making my point appropriately).

I suppose I'm getting too far into a SIMPLE discussion, so let's draw it to a summary for now. Do what you intend to do - install your upscale brakes at the wheels, run your brake lines as you would with most any conventional brake installation. Now where we deviate from "stock" is that any and all modifications from factory stock should NOT be run by a non adjustable brake proportioning arrangement. A factory block style "prop valve" will essentially work, but would you want a carburetor or ignition system that was not adjustable? Um, nooooo... So why in the world would you settle for a brake system that is not adjustable?

Read this web page over: http://www.hydratechbraking.com/braketech2.html

Simple: Run full power to your front brakes at all times. Run as much power to your rear brakes as you can depending upon your suspension / tires (traction) / rear brake response will allow. With an adjustable brake proportioning arrangement, you can quickly and easily adjust your braking to maximize performance just like adjusting an amp / equalizer in a sound system (so why in the world would you NOT set your custom built performance car braking system up to also be adjustable) !? Everybody seems to know what adjusting the front to rear speaker balance (fader) adjustment brings to the table, but can't draw the direct comparison to performance vehicle braking (essentially the same basics apply!).

If your braking is to your liking in manual brake mode = great! That is like having a head unit / stereo / speaker combo that thrills you without the need for any amps or equalizers. If you need more power in your braking system, well, add an amp! Vacuum boosters are limited to their power output based upon the power source feeding them (inches of vacuum as provided by the engine). Most high performance engines do not produce good engine vacuum, so the power source to the vacuum booster (the amp in this discussion) will not do much. A hydraulic brake assist unit - aka hydroboost - is a very powerful (amp) that does not "care" about engine vacuum / engine or vehicle speed (providing your existing power steering system is in proper operating condition).

Make sense? Please say yes LOL

:hammer:

[bbcmonte]

Thanks, I was thinking that I need a adjustable proportion valve. Can I just a add one, or should I invest in a all in one?

[Hydratech®]

Now that the very basics are covered, let's move into further specifics. A '70 Monte with an updated 4 wheel disc conversion, hydroboost, adjustable proportioning brings this to the discussion:

* Do your proposed 4 wheel disc conversion at the wheels as planned, though do please note that doing a rear disc brake swap in place of your drum brakes MUST include appropriately dealing with removing excessive rear axle shaft end play (in a stock C-clip retained GM rear axle) to maintain a consistent brake pedal (due to caliper / pad knockback prevalent in rear disc brake conversions) due to excessive axle shaft inward / outward movement. This will require carefully clearancing the internals of your rear axle to eliminate axle shaft end play to .020" maximum. This IS tricky and can get expensive. This does NOT apply IF you have installed a C-clip eliminator kit or a completely different rear axle design such as a popular Ford 9" with pressed on axleshaft bearings (that eliminates rear axle shaft inward / outward movement). Full floating calipers installed in the rear will help, but you do need to acknowledge that axleshaft end play is always a factor in providing consistent braking actions.

* We recommend that you "Live line" your brakes to eliminate the factory non adjustable style brake proportioning valve entirely. This essentially means a custom brake line scenario, in that you will have your front brakes run straight out of the master cylinder with one brake line, then "T-eed" off to the right / left front brakes (typically near the driver's side upper control arm). The rear brakes will also take the other line coming out of the master cylinder, connected to a knob or lever style of inline adjustable proportioning valve anywhere between the master cylinder and the rear axle, then running the rest of the length of the vehicle to the rear axle flex hose, where it will then split right / left to the calipers at the wheels. The knob or lever style inline proportioning valve installed into the rear brake line is comparable to the "fader" effect in a sound system, in that it can turn up or turn down the power level (brake line pressures) available to your rear brakes. 100% max to a reduction of 50% is what these inline prop valves bring to the table.

* The hydroboost is often misunderstood... It is nothing more than a very powerful "amp" between your foot and the master cylinder. It is an item that many believe can be at fault for everything from "soup to nuts" in a brake system. The reality is that it is simply a (much more so powerful) booster that runs off of power steering instead of engine vacuum. Treat is as such - do not believe it to be anything more than a (simple) amp installed into a sound system.

* Brake lines? Yes... You will either (preferably) custom fabricate all of your needs to suit your build OR enlist the services of a professional to help make it more so of a bolt in. The only true bolt in that exists is a dead stock replacement system, and even then you still have to tweak the brake lines around to make everything fit just right. Hydratech systems are different than stock vacuum boosters in that we change the installed master cylinder angle from the ridiculous factory "shoot for the moon" 17 degree upward master cylinder angle to a much more sensible 6 degree upward master cylinder installed angle. When converting a factory vacuum booster system to one of our Hydratech systems, this only means that the master cylinder will be moving downward approximately 1" or so, so coaxing factory style brake lines into a MC position about an inch lower is a breeze...

All said and done? We have sent many customers to www.finelinesinc.com with proper success for their custom builds, as they have worked with our Hydratech systems before with great success for customers we have sent their way. Tell them what you want to do, where you would like your knob adjustable inline rear brake proportioning valve to exist, and they will make it happen for you. Or? Be ready to take some time to custom build your own brake lines exactly how and where you want them to be. Remember, you can put the rear brake adjustable proportioning valve anywhere you like between the master cylinder and the rear axle to suit your tastes. This means that it can be underhood, mounted next to your driver's seat for on the fly adjustments while driving, just under the driver's door where you can reach quickly - essentially anywhere you want to suit your personal tastes. I will say that 99% of people essentially "set it and forget it" except for multipurpose road racers that need to re-adjust all of the time to suit their current pads / track conditions...

BTW / FYI - Never just add an inline style of brake proportioning valve to any vehicle without removing or fully disabling a factory style of brake proportioning valve. Why? They can actually fight each other under certain circumstances resulting in dangerously unpredictable braking...

[bbcmonte]

Do I need a all in one adjustable proportion valve? I do plan to use hydoboost.