PT compared to modern sports car - looking for feedback

[junkyard]

Hi all. I'm new to this site and am interested in gathering some input about how a PT car can compare in terms of braking, handling, ride quality, durability, etc to a modern sports car. I've owned a modified Nissan GTR, a stock early 2000's Z06, a Porsche Cayman S. I've become interested in a more 'analog', classic car. I've always loved older mustangs and have recently been looking into buying a 1966 that seems like a well built PT car - Schwartz chassis, 14" Baer 6 piston brakes, Ridetech single adjustable coilers, splined sway bars, Tiger cage, supercharged EFI Terminator 4.6, 285/30 and 255/35 rubber.

I'm curious to hear from guys who have experience in these totally different types of cars (modern sports vs PT). Can an old mustang turned PT car as described above keep up around a road course with a modern Vette? Am I gonna need to do a ton of "tweaking" to get the car to hookup? Is the ride quality brutal in the PT car? Would it be tolerable on a few hundred mile road trip? Anything else worth thinking about? Ultimately, I'd like to be able to do the occasional high speed road course event, occasional autocross event, and be able to just generally drive the hell out of the car.

Thanks in advance for helping shed light on this potential investment!

[TheJDMan]

This is probably the best comparison I have seen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-Y2Hvnfrg

[Cobra 498]

A modern Corvette will kill a Protouring car on a road course with equal drivers as will a GTR and many other modern cars. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, aerodynamics, electronic controls etc etc are all against even the best of the Protouring cars.
You are comparing a complete system designed and tested by literally hundreds of engineers, designers and technicians with budgets approaching 1 billion to a creation involving a few individuals who probably won't have the resources or capability to design a total package.

[Decline]

With the amount of $ I just spent on my pro touring build I could have just bought a 996 911 turbo like my buddy at work. It's AWD 505hp (x-50 with intake/exhaust/tune) will wipe the floor with most cars on the road. But my Camaro is way cooler and more fun to drive on the streets. The 911 needs to be way over the speed limit to get any real thrill.
My Camaro also has way more curb appeal. I drive thru SoCal all the time with bimmers Porsches Mercedes etc and when we come to the stop light nobody sees their car and everybody looks at mine. Unless it's super exotic the Camaro always wins. My other friends red NSX gets more looks but that's cuz non car people prbly think its a Ferrari.
Anyway, point is drive what you like. There will always be something faster or more expensive.
I personally like being a young guy driving some classic American muscle, keeping the torch burning so to speak.

[Build-It-Break-It]

There's no point in trying to compare the two They're two different animals.

[sheck44]

Ive had or driven Vipers, GT3 RS porsche's, 600hp ROUSH, 600+ hp vette etc

Unless you simply want a track car ...
Here you go ... PT car:
Looks way cooler... check
Gets waaaaay more attention ... check
Sounds way better ... check
More fun to drive ... check
No silly driving aids ... check
Holds value ... check

To me driving is all about the experience, the look, the feel, the sound ... the engagement. Like the video, I absolutely love the raw, thrilling driving experience that you get from our PT cars. Now dont get me wrong, I'd LOVE to get my hands on the new Z06 but I wonder if I'd get bored after a few months like I did with some of the above cars.

Steve

[Schwartz Performance]

Hi there, welcome to the forum.

The GTR isn't much of a comparison because of its AWD. You will not get any rwd car to launch like those do.
The Corvettes I believe are a comparison. However, Corvettes have a lower center of gravity, much lower than PT cars. As far as ride quality, they aren't that far off. A lot of other things need to be considered though.. Such as the engineering as others pointed out, and of course sound deadening will make a difference mentally. A loud stiff car seems stiffer than a quiet stuff car :)
Our chassis ride really well. I drove a 69 vert we just finished with an Edelbrock supercharged Coyote with a 6 speed recently.
As others also pointed out, the experience is what gets you really hooked. They're so much fun to drive, and no you won't break your back driving them. We do offer ABS systems if you're concerned about braking, too. But the 14" Baer brakes are great.
Search YouTube for Schwartz 1965 Tempest. That's one of our shop cars that does battle newer Corvettes- granted they're a closer to stock than say Danny Popps built up C5 and 6 he races.
If you're not convinced, I urge you to come to our shop in the spring and drive one of our cars for yourself.
Let me know if you have any questions on our chassis. Not sure if I have already!

-Dale

[junkyard]

Really helpful input thus far! Much appreciated. I'm definitely interested in a more raw, visceral, driving experience (the GTR was dull outside of launch or tripling the speed limit).

(Dale, that Tempest is bad ass - man that's some rubber you squeezed in there)

[DarkBuddha]

One other thought that occured to me in thinking about this is the serviceability of the cars and parts replacement/reconstruction/upgrade. Up to a certain point, I thin a classic p-t car has an edge here. Replacing a quarter or hood or fender on a '66 Mustang is pennies on the dollar compared to a 911 or GTR. Same for engine and suspension builds... Again, up to a point. Besides, I think whatever you lose in comparable performance is more than made up in driving and ownership experience.

[PT Sportwagon]

I think it is ultimately up to you. If you can take Dale up on his offer. Drive some go to an event see what the PT cars are doing then make your decision. From what you described the mustang sounds like a well built car. but for the cool factor a vintage PT car is it.

From me while my Focus ST out handles and out performs my wagon. but I do get way more looks with the wagon, and it is three different colors.

Tim

[Bonehead]

You can definitely upgrade those things on an old muscle car that will make the car handle and drive way, way better than it was from the factory. The issue you'll face are the things already mentioned. Having all the additional computer controlled things that control the brakes, suspension are the difficult systems to incorporate. One of the engineers at Art Morrison put a anti-lock brake set up on a first gen Camaro. Its an amazing use of new technology into an older car, but its far from being practical. I'd say we can do a tremendous amount of work to make these older, analog cars and trucks so much better and fun to drive.

[gmbdabest]

A pro touring older car is still no contest for modern cars....performance, handling wise. I had a 2006 procharged mustang gt, 613hp, 40k miles, drove it 6 hours home when I bought it, no problems, cold ac, leather, all options handled great paid $13,000 for it. I have over triple that in my 73 Camaro and it wouldn't be a contest even after all the upgrades ive made. The difference is when I took the mustang out it got noticed when it was running, the camshafts and supercharger whine, sitting still people walked right by it. The Camaro different story running or sitting still people stop, look, want to talk, old cars just have style. Now if money is no object like the cuda that was built on dream car garage, you can run with anything, but they spent over $500 thousand to build it!

[High Plains Mopars]

I always find the Stielow/ZL1 comparison interesting because there is a classic that runs with a modern supercar. However, Stielow has admitted it would take over $250k to duplicate his red Camaro. That is a lot of freakin coin for a visceral ride that performs on par with a modern $65k set of wheels.

I also think Ron Sutton has built some classics that will run on par with a modern car, but they are far from stock underneath their skin.

Which is the limitation of owning a PT car. If you are looking at even highly modified stock based suspension and braking systems, you will never be able to go toe to toe with a new car in a rules regulated racing environment. However, that is the great divergence there is with these cars in that I have yet to actually see anyone run a dedicated track car in any nationally sanctioned, rule regulated racing organization utilizing a classic body style, SCCA CAM excepted because it is still so new that no one is dominating it to a point of people crying foul...yet.

So that means for all their fire and anger, 99.9% of all pro touring cars are only racing in limited rule, high $$ psuedo-showdowns or non competitive track days. In this case, the nut behind the wheel is a much greater factor than the car its self and in that case, can more than hold their own against any number of high dollar sports or touring cars during hot laps at a NASA HPDE day.

[vintageracer]

It all boils down to this:

"They sure don't make cars like they did in the past"

I for one am VERY HAPPY they don't!

[BMR Sales]

A modern Corvette will kill a Protouring car on a road course with equal drivers as will a GTR and many other modern cars. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, aerodynamics, electronic controls etc etc are all against even the best of the Protouring cars.
You are comparing a complete system designed and tested by literally hundreds of engineers, designers and technicians with budgets approaching 1 billion to a creation involving a few individuals who probably won't have the resources or capability to design a total package.

Not only that, but the Build Quality of a PT Car will vary depending on who built it

[howehot]

I have a 84 Monte Carlo SS with a Schwartz Performance chassis and after 2.5 years, numerous events with a few wins, and 12,000 miles, I absolutely love it. In 2011 I choose building this car vs a new Camaro SS. Ride quality is very good with the Ridetech shocks softened up and with the sound deadner, stereo and AC we drive it often as a family cruiser. I get way more looks and have 2 magazine features and several event photo appear in magazines. Pretty sure a Camaro would not receive all the attention. I like Schwartz's product so much I'm building an El Camino with another chassis under it.

That said, I don't have abs, traction control, or stability control to help overcome my driving. As said before, a home built car can't compete with GM and all it's engineers.

[andrewb70]

If you want to go fast, just buy a new Z28. If you want a unique ride, then build a classic car of your choosing.

Andrew

[parsonsj]

How fast are we talking about? It's a myth that you can just buy a late-model sports car and go straight to the track. Most (maybe the new Z28 is the exception, but we'l see) need upgrades for brakes, tires, cooling, shocks, sway bars, restraints, and seats. Add about $30K to the cost of that new Z28, Z06, 911, or GTR to make them truly track-worthy.

Now the cost comparison gets a little more interesting since you can build your PT car with all that stuff and pay for it once, rather than twice.

[MonzaRacer]

I have watched old cars rebuilt, literally refurbished, and on some counts quotes of $100k ish back in last 20 yrs and those cars WILL run with off the showroom floor Corvettes, maybe not AWD stuff, but watched a guy with a turboed GTO(late model) take on a Porsche, God only knows what the Asian fella had in it, he brought with from East.
German car got SPANKED by a plain old LS powered GTO, no major mods, and when they slowed down to get off 37, the GTO was up Porsche tail pipe as the Asian fella was scared of the off ramp.
I ahve also seen Steilow and others build cars and then drive them, and see others go hit dealership, and go race.
I can still tell you while new cars have certain possibilities the actual performance and creativity on older cars still prove to me that old cars STILL rule.
Take ANY of these new $50k+ performance cars, beat them, drive them neglect them much as old Camaros, Chevelles, Mustangs etc have been in last 40-50 yrs (YES Virginia that 65 Mustang is 50 years old!) and being able to rebuild them. Build them and drive them.
Sorry, I dont see the newer cars being better in longevity part, cool part fades fast as nostalgia and such just lives so well.
But as stated apples and oranges. Really.

[tazzz25906112]

To me new cars =

Positives------
-latest trend
-modern technology (which is awesome)
-Millions in engineering

Negatives
-How long is that trend (we know what our PT cars are all about)
-Modern tech = lots of computers (great,, but when the warranty is over and your still thrashing,, how much is the true cost of that puppy)


PT cars----
Positives
-Classic design that has stood the test of time (especially with subtle trends you can create)
-Guttural driving experience.. I mean you really feel the car under you.
-Creativity is off the hook in many of these builds

Negatives
-Less likely to have computers and traction control systems
-Can't lease them (at here in Canada... there goes the drive it/rent it basically for three years and walk away)
-up front layout in cash for a good car (built already or that you have built)
-Market is more limited for a base line immediate sale (with the caveat that given time to market well built PT cars,, they sell for substantially more money than original rare collector cars.. The old rule of modify doesn't get the money back is long out the window with well done PT cars eclipsing original car values more often than the old school collectors what to admit... Hell you can't blame them though as admitting this would directly and negatively impact the collects values)

In a nutshell,,, it's all about your passion.... Personally I Dam near fell asleep in a buddies Murcielago years ago when they came out... The car was refined, stunning and all that good stuff but it felt like it was driving,,, not me... That was enough to send me off on my journey into pro-touring builds... You have to decide what moves you. I always felt with very rare exception that new cars are like cookie cutters,,, change the color and sit at a light with a dozen more... A well built Pro-touring car should (in my opinion) make you feel like your wearing a great tailored suit,,, it's made for you specifically for you.. It's comfortable and reflects your own taste and most important it should make you feel real good...

[gscherer78ta]

That said, I don't have abs, traction control, or stability control to help overcome my driving. As said before, a home built car can't compete with GM and all it's engineers.


When you go to the track for a day of racing is it only the fastest time of the day you are looking for? This is a general question and I only quote you becuase you brought it up. I have a mostly stock '78 TA with all the original geometry and some stiffer spring rates and stickier tires- no computers no traction control... I love it. I also just started autocrossing and am on a steep learning curve and am not terribly competitive so, being the fast time isn't my goal. Having fun with my car and seeing what I can do in it and to it is my goal. I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong in how they feel, just bringing up different points....