PT Race Car Builds On The Way Out???

[vintageracer]

Spent a week + in Scottsdale at the January foolishness fun of buying and sellin!

Naturally there was a lot of talk about PT cars in the bunch I run with and people I know. The scuttlebut talk was about the trend the last 2 years about building dedicated PT autocross/race cars. Many of the builds have certainly been over the top, kool to look at, fast with a TON ON MONEY spent on them and an ole C3 Corvette STILL BEATS EM ALL! The consensus among everybody I spoke is that the trend of building these over top type of race PT cars/trucks is heading out the door and the builds in the future will still be nice and go back to reflect overall PT theme of modifying an old car into a modern car but move BACK to more driveable, street friendly, useful and family friendly builds.


Whatta Ya Think????

[cornfedbill]

I have always been a fan of street driven PT style cars. I don't get as excited about trailer queens and purpose built cars.

The most impressive cars drive to work during the week and compete in autocross and track events on the weekends.

My plan is to have a full interior and to drive to work on days when the roads are not covered in white stuff...

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I do think that all out purpose built PT cars won't command high dollars, much like spending big dollars on a drag car won't net you big money. Both cars are purpose built race cars, and not necessarily fun to drive off the road coarse. There are many of those purpose built cars on here that won't bid up to record dollars, but then again, these cars aren't built for revenue, they're built to race. The high dollar PT cars at Barrett are more street based with nicer plush interiors, good stereos, A/C, etc. I don't know if the over the top PT race type builds are headed out the door, since I don't know if they've ever been the "in" thing at auctions like this. What works at the race events, and what sells at auctions are two very different breeds IMO.

[chocthunder]

Most over the top PT cars are built by venders to showcase their products or by shops to showcase their skills. These cars are bought by people that want a turn key car.
I feel safe in saying, that is not the roots of the PT world. I enjoy improving my car a little at a time and seeing the results. I want my car to reflect my vision whether the work is done by a shop or myself. IMO, that is the true roots of the PT world.

[SSLance]

I rode in this car on an autocross course, the owner entered it in a Solo School I taught in.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-CUSTOM-TWIN-TURBO-180018

While a very beautiful car that sold for a pretty premium dollar, it wasn't anywhere near ready to be fast on an autocross course. It might have had a lot of the right parts on it, and obviously had a lot of power...but it was basically undriveable in anything other than a straight line. The owner and the builder were both shocked when they went for a ride in my little old car and neither one of them have been back to race with us since.

To me anyway, PT cars can be both show cars and go cars...but the difference between them is huge.

[will69camaro]

I think I'm building a car to be what I want. But then again, i'm not building mine to ever sell...

[Arrowhead]

Timely post. I'm in the very early stages of a truck build. I looked for over a year to find the truck I wanted and grabbed it and a second one just in case. I kind of want to push the envelope and develop some of more fab skills with this one. So since it's going to be a while till I can actually start work on it, I've been going back and forth between a PT and a track truck. I want to build something over the top, but have to ask what am I really going to do with it and what serves that purpose best. Is there such a thing as being purpose built for Goodguys? HaHa. I really don't see me trailering it to a real track and doing 130 MPH, but driving 12 hours to Columbus Goodguys and running the autocross would be the goal (and driving home again).

[Gratefuldiver]

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like these over the top cars are built for customers but those very cars sit in the showrooms of the shop that built them. That GTO that Kindig It Design build for example. OCC was the same way. Maybe it's just TV purposes.

[groho]

been to B/J a couple of times now, and what I see are two separate groups, the ones looking for an investment, museum quality, #001 builds, etc, or the resellers. The resellers are the ones that buy early weds, thurs, fri morning, will drive the car for a couple of years and dump it for a profit. The individual buyers for the personal long term are not that frequent (JMO). The specialty cars like PT builds and purpose builds definitely don't see a good return on the investment. Theres a big difference between restomods that are lowered with big wheels and lots of chrome, and a PT build that demands high dollars for suspension and drivetrain (+/- $80-100K). The PT C2's and C3's with modern drive trains are collecting respectable dollars but still don't see it at the level where you would break even. So personally, I don't think the buyers at B/J or Mecum appreciate the level of detail and quality in a PT build. Sticking with a drivable street friendly build is focused on keeping the investment cost down: restomod. I personally believe the cost of a PT build will prevent it from taking off at these auctions.

[ModernMuseum]

Most over the top PT cars are built by vendors to showcase their products or by shops to showcase their skills. These cars are bought by people that want a turn key car.
I feel safe in saying, that is not the roots of the PT world. I enjoy improving my car a little at a time and seeing the results. I want my car to reflect my vision whether the work is done by a shop or myself. IMO, that is the true roots of the PT world.

This.

To me, the PT world is divided up into three categories, more or less, with no distinct delineation between them:


Ring Brothers style - over the top, incredible fabrication, mega $$, impeccable craftsmanship, innovative fabrication, will hardly be driven or raced
Weekend warrior types with a project or two. Probably won't race them, but build a slick PT car with new guts
Racing crowd, which can be an all-out streetfighter style with no frills or some combo of the above


I see the second two as being the fruit of the PT world, with no preference either way. Both have their place. All three categories are incredibly awesome though. I'll never have a super high end car or an all-out brawler race car, but I'll for sure take some ideas from all three categories and implement them onto my ride(s), pending funds of course.

[1965gp]

Those guys that bought Tues during the day and Wed had some deals to choose from! I was shocked to see what $15-25k could buy there.

On the high end cars I was surprised at a few-

This car had an amazing amount of fab work. LT-5 twin turbo (yes, LT-5!) and it sold for 110k. This car had over 100k in parts, let alone the work to build it. True, it may have been dated but certainly not out of style.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1967-CHEVROLET-CHEVELLE-CUSTOM-TWIN-TURBO-178488

[Bill Howell]

I have been saying it for a year now Mike. The over the top builds have moved on from Pro TOURING and moved into the race car segment. It isn't pro TOURING if it never TOURS!
Nothing wrong with doing what you like with your car, just call it what it is, that is all.
My current build is being purposely built as a driver, no racing for this one at all. I see and hear from people all the time that are doing the same thing. The hobby is fine and the segment is great, just need to be sure we call all builds what they really are and intended for. :)

[icemanrd19]

to me i want a stock looking but modified car, new suspension and modern touches. To me my car is the perfect balance. Interior will look stock with vintage looking recaros and 3 point seatbealts, suspension dse, modern drivetrain, modern but stock brakes etc

My car is a stock 67 camaro not a 67 camaro stock parts car if that makes sense.

Stock engine from a car
Stock brakes from a car
Stock E-brake assembly
Stock interior

[bergers59]

I am much more of a fan of autocross/race oriented pro touring vehicles with street being thrown in as an afterthought than their show/street driven counterparts. I personally think that its boring to have a first gen camaro or mustang that handles and brakes "just like a new car" with a/c and adjustable bmw seats. If you want that get a new car, 19 or 20 inch wheels included! :hammer:

[Schwartz Performance]

Hey not all vendors have over the top racecar builds.
I keep thinking of Josh Leisinger in his "C2" carbon fiber body Vette. That one is over the top and isn't too practical on say the Hotrod Power Tour.
Our 65 Pontiac Tempest has always been a tough competitor, and it looks like a racecar but isn't, besides the fact it doesn't have AC and not much of an interior.

I don't think the pro touring race cars are on their way out... Most of us are men and that means competitive in nature. Heck I suppose that can be said for women too :)
However, more people want to get involved in the sport, so I think there is a larger group that doesn't have the money to build an over the top car; but there are still going to be guys pushing the envelope and have money to do so.

-Dale

[WallaceMFG]

In my opinion, there is a point when it's no longer a pro touring car and becomes a race car. For example, one time at a good guys show I saw a first gen Camaro that was in progress out running the autocross. It was a nice looking convertible, and I was impressed until it pulled into the pits. He was building a giant metal cover that covered the entire interior except for the drivers seat. Many people would consider this a pro touring car based on its looks and parts, but in my book it's a race car. Also, if it can't comfortably go over a speed bump that pretty much makes it a race car to me. Just my thoughts

[jeff s]

Every car I saw with an aftermarket chassis and efi engine sold for more money than those without.
I was happy with this:
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1981-PONTIAC-TRANS-AM-CUSTOM-TWIN-TURBO-180304

[72BBSwinger]

My car has a cage, 8 point, and full interior and modern engine and 6 speed. Still on leaf springs and torsion bars. I want see just how competitive a stock suspension Mopar can be. Dont care what cliche it fits in. I want a car that can do it all very good with a 1972 skin and looks.

[Interceptor5588]

Tell you what, when it comes time to hit the track I'm much more comfortable out there with my $10,000 track mule than I would be with a $50k GTO build. Who really wants to push their pride and joy and years of blood sweat and tears to the limits with concrete barriers inches from your mirrors? I think we all put so much into our builds that they are better enjoyed on the open road anyways. My point is, PT builds have become so overbuilt in most cases that at the end most guys are afraid to hit the track with them . . . so they just Tour.

[NOT A TA]

Who really wants to push their pride and joy and years of blood sweat and tears to the limits with concrete barriers inches from your mirrors?

Me. I'm looking forward to having my drivers side mirror literally inches from the wall in turn one at Sebring as soon as I get my car back on track.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

To me it's all about how do you define pro touring. I see pt as a corvette, comfortable fast, you can race it and drive to work. If it's dedicated, it's not pro touring. Either way I think they are all cool. So if the trend of over the top dedicated race type pt machines is on its way out, for me they never were pt machines to begin with. Peter

[GreeneHoosier]

I have been a member here a long time and rarely if ever post. I had a 1966 Mustang that was supposed to be my PT car but the more I added it all up I knew I was not going to be happy. I would either spend too much and be pretty happy or not spend enough and not be happy with the result. I want my cars to be spirited drivers. Kind of like my Alfa Romeos but with more power. I then sold the Mustang to a restorer (low mileage Cali car!) and bought a 1990 Nissan 300zx Twin-turbo. I knew this car could be everything I wanted in a touring car with less money spent. It came with IRS, EFI and twin-turbos. The chassis is good for 160mph from the factory. Now, I did not get the classic body style I wanted but I do love the looks of these cars. This car is a good PT style car that I can drive and hit some cones if I want. Race car style build are just not what I wanted anymore. Maybe PT is maturing in the same way. Not better, not worse, just different.

[Bill Howell]

I love the last two posts and think both are spot on. If you look on ebay, "protour" means anything from TT2 and cut springs to full on racecars with tags. It is a trendy name now, and even as I watched Barrett Jackson this passed weekend, I noticed the BUZZ word of the week was finally protouring instead of retromod. Names really mean nothing without some real basis for enthusiast to gravitate to when they hear it and want to be part of it. This forum has had a definition we worked on and out several years ago and still, IMO defines true Pro-Touring. I think as things have ebbed and flowed, we saw the brand move more toward racing, but I also am fully aware that there is a large segment of the PT nitch that felt PT was getting too much like racing and too expensive for most, with other obligations like kids, family and life in general. It is wrong to divide an already small segment of anything, including or little part of the automotive hobby.
As to the OP here, I do see the trend back to a more moderate, drivable, streetable car and I think that is a healthy thing for our hobby. Not everyone needs to think they have to build a full bore racecar with a tag to fit in here. While PT cars that raced are certainly a benchmark for everyone and certainly are the best way to know exactly what are absolutely the "best of the best" parts to have, IMO good daily drivers will ultimately drive the segment and bring much more recognition to our brand.
My signature has been about trailers and what they are designed to haul. Whether you use a trailer to haul your show car or because you haul it incase you break it at the track, IMO, and understand, it is just MO, you are not TOURING your Protouring car. :)
Just my .02 on the subject.

[Stg1Regal]

Amen ..... Brother Bill!!!

At the last Buick GS Nationals Auto-X event quite a few rides were driven to our event , a couple of them over 6 hours away one way , and then beaten on then driven home.

I myself don't currently have a PT ride just yet , but plan to change that soon .... but plan on driving it as much as I can , and running it in road courses and road challenges and Auto-xs , as much as I can ....... but driven to and from.

My ride I lost to the fire , was driven to Bill's Run To The Hills events , and driven home , except one time had to take a trailer ride home , 6 hours ..... No I didn't beat on it in completion , but did break trying to keep up with the Big Boys while on the Tail of the Dragon.

I know I will never outrun or beat a Ring Bros Ride , a DSE or Ridetech purpose built equipped ride , in a Auto-x course or road course , and probably will never make it to a Optima Battery challenge , but I don't care ... just want my ride to be fun and comfortable to drive , most of all safe to drive because of upgrades to it and the upgrades to myself as driver because then I know my limitations as a driver and knowing my limits of my ride.....

Pro-touring is not a bolt on and go trend , it's a learning curve of learning yourself as a driver , and learning your car as tool or extension of yourself.
Just like in Drag Racing the more you raced that first stock car , you got it faster with just tweaking on it and no bolt ons , then you added parts and tested .... same way goes in Pro-Touring or Auto-X rides even restomods , big plus factor is you get to drive em when you done.!!

[Chev Korbin]

Its seems to me a that the term pro-touring has been over generalized and vastly over marketed. I feel Pro-touring has gone from, modernizing a classic car and turing it into a daily driver to the hyped up over the top show cars that many of us drool over and dream about in our sleep. But to say that those over the top builds define what pro-touring is, is just false advertising. The industry has defined pro-touring in terms of money spent. I think that pro-touring is a more refined version of the "restomod", incorporating higher performance characteristics though the suspension as well as the engine and drivetrain. I am an advocate for incorporating the daily driver amenities such as AC and windshield wipers:hand:. I am always disappointed when people omit the little creature comforts that take away from them being a daily driver. That being said, I definitely think that a pro-touring build should be done so with track time in mind, whether it's an auto cross or road course. I have to agree with Peter Mc Mahon, if its dedicated its not pro-touring and I say if the "over the top" build trend is on its way out good riddance.

[hotrodalex]

Any work I've done on my car has been focused towards making it a better daily driver, with faster auto-x times just a nice benefit.

[Poorhousenext]

Its seems to me a that the term pro-touring has been over generalized and vastly over marketed. I feel Pro-touring has gone from, modernizing a classic car and turing it into a daily driver to the hyped up over the top show cars that many of us drool over and dream about in our sleep. But to say that those over the top builds define what pro-touring is, is just false advertising. The industry has defined pro-touring in terms of money spent. I think that pro-touring is a more refined version of the "restomod", incorporating higher performance characteristics though the suspension as well as the engine and drivetrain. I am an advocate for incorporating the daily driver amenities such as AC and windshield wipers:hand:. I am always disappointed when people omit the little creature comforts that take away from them being a daily driver. That being said, I definitely think that a pro-touring build should be done so with track time in mind, whether it's an auto cross or road course. I have to agree with Peter Mc Mahon, if its dedicated its not pro-touring and I say if the "over the top" build trend is on its way out good riddance.

Only difference in PT car and a Restomod to me a PT car is supposed to have a wider track than stock to improve handling more. Most of the car builds here are for more Restomod than Pro Touring, and some are really more Pro Street with wide tires stuck under a stock body.

I call my car a Pro Touring Restomod. It has wider front and rear tract, but it was purpose built to be a lively driver. Don't know how it would do on autocross course, but for a 3559 LBs (48% Frt/52% rear) with me and 4 gallons are less fuel car with 360 RWHP that can't even spin tires 300 TW tires on a prepped 1/4 track it's not to shabby even with 1.997-2.18 60" times 11.997 @117 MPH/11.999 @ 120 MPH ...LOL I don't have a trailer or a truck to pull it, so it's driven where ever it goes.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/2014lsfestdrags11999finishtline_zpsc8dfe-1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/jere-64/media/2014lsfestdrags11999finishtline_zpsc8dfe682.jpg.ht ml)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/DSC0063XL-1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/jere-64/media/DSC0063-XL.jpg.html)

PS: I'm a Corvette owner. It's my belief they are Sport Cars, not real Pro Touring cars, they were never a Touring class car. They have been wideing these cars ever since 1963 to race them in sports car classes. They should compete in a different class than PT Pony Cars, Muscle Cars, ect. But what do I know, I started out Young and Dumb and I've only progressed to being Old and Stupid...LOL

The base design for my car are the old C2 race cars, just with tire coverage on front and rear of wheel wells.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/vemp_0911_04_z12_hours_of_sebringstartin-1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/jere-64/media/vemp_0911_04_z12_hours_of_sebringstarting_line.jpg .html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/1widefenderracecarconceptforcars-1.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/jere-64/media/1widefenderracecarconceptforcars.jpg.html)

[BuddyP]

Well, I have trailered mine to a track event "in case it breaks" but also have driven it over 2 hrs one way to work. It's even used as a grocery getter at times..... literally! I do think the term "touring" is a big part of it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[PT Sportwagon]

While the over the top PT build can be cool. it is not me. Since its good-guys MC of the year appearance has anyone seen the Ring Brothers Mustang at an event running? an example of a high $$$ purpose built car that is never driven.
As for me a PT car is a car that has up graded suspension, brakes, engine from a std version. That is why I call my Focus ST a factory pro-Touring car. It has upgraded brakes, much better handling, more power than a Std Focus. all from the factory.

Tim

[hotrodalex]

Well, I have trailered mine to a track event "in case it breaks" but also have driven it over 2 hrs one way to work. It's even used as a grocery getter at times..... literally! I do think the term "touring" is a big part of it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I'd end up with splattered groceries all over the trunk if I drove that to the store!

[72BBSwinger]

I built my car with the intention of having a car that can do it all really well. I probably lose points for no a/c, oh well.

[1989GTA]

"As for me a PT car is a car that has up graded suspension, brakes, engine from a std version. That is why I call my Focus ST a factory pro-Touring car. It has upgraded brakes, much better handling, more power than a Std Focus. all from the factory.

Tim"

That is what I am doing with my build which is not hard to do on my 65 Skylark that came with a V6. Upgraded to 4 wheel disc brakes, lots of suspension upgrades and big power train changes. I added A/C and I am in the process of installing 2004 GTO front power bucket seats for added ride comfort.

[GrabberGT]

I'd end up with splattered groceries all over the trunk if I drove that to the store!

That much water, battery in the trunk and me driving is not a very good recipe. LOL

[jerome]

Well, I have trailered mine to a track event "in case it breaks" but also have driven it over 2 hrs one way to work. It's even used as a grocery getter at times..... literally! I do think the term "touring" is a big part of it.

Buddy P - You might want to put terminal covers on those battery terminals. That's a fire waiting to happen

[PT Sportwagon]

That much water, battery in the trunk and me driving is not a very good recipe. LOL

Yeah, what a mess it would be to clean up.

[Bill Howell]

While the over the top PT build can be cool. it is not me. Since its good-guys MC of the year appearance has anyone seen the **** at an event running? an example of a high $$$ purpose built car that is never driven.




I am going to try to answer that question in general, not necessarily the particular car you mentioned in your post.
Remember, most owners, building a car worthy of GG MCOTY are not building a car to put in the track and probably not looking for the Protouring title either. These builds are done with ONE goal in mine, the MCOTY crown. While they may put all the cool parts and pieces that we all know, but usually the cost of the build and other restraints keep them in a garage and not on the track or even sometimes the street. Usually it is the second owner that sees if it really will do what it was perceived to be able to do. The reason being buying them finished is usually 1/2 or 1/3 the cost of building them.

[wiedemab]

I'm building my car to be a race car that can also be driven on the street. I haven't read through everything in this thread, but here is my personal take on it. If I'm going to go all out on a track (I know, all out for me will probably still be slow compared to the big boys/girls), then I want every bit of safety that I can have. My car will have a full 4130 cage with proper padding, race seats, 5 point harness, fire suppression, minimal interior (less flammable) - essentially every thing that is feasibly available to me to make the car safe. I will use it on the track and as a fair weather "rip around on the street" car.

I will also be keeping my 1972 Suburban, which at some point will get modern LS power to go along with the already modded suspension/steering etc.. This will be my touring vehicle.

So - - - I will have one "Pro" and one "Touring" - - ;)

At some point, I'll probably build a mix of the two in the form of a convertible of some sort for my wife!

[mikes2nd]

Pro Touring is dead...

Money killed it. Things turn from fun to a business, just a normal progression.

Seriously you see sponsor show up with 10 cars, 3 of them are gutted interior full on race cars.

They had to split it up into 3 classes... with I am sure more on the way, there will be 6 and then 8...

Awd low weight, AWD race class, AWD whatever... fwd... rwd... under 2500 lbs. over 3500 lbs..

Its just part of racing, you have to have rules because the guy with more money will spend it to be a winner :)

So it just comes down to money and how much you want to spend, you try to negate that will classes and rules or you watch the same rich guy win every week... yawn..

This happens with everything, but it doesn't work so you end up a mess like normal. Rules upon rules, classes upon classes.

I would probably rather see "one set" of rules. The minute you let guys show up with huge racing slicks, stripped race cars, 2500 lb 800-1200 hp cars its over. But I also get that the guy who shows up with the winning car will keep showing up until he gets bored beating the poorer slobs, trophies are cool I understand.

I would rather see a "you win once, that car is out and in the finals or whatever, can't run until finals or next year"... next idea. omg no points and this "series" crud either... wow that gets painful. Or start a "winner class" or something

and maybe two classes, the under 50k(fun!) and unlimited money class.(class is by participant votes finalized by judges, no actual receipt bs).

None of this stripped interior crud either, seriously pro-'Touring'? hah to that touring part. make a set of rules close to street cars if your going to mentions street cars, stick to it. I laugh at pro "street" drag racing also... that a rules game also and then they get bored and go "okay guys we can run giant slicks to get those numbers down and makes street sound cool with an 8 second car!"... We will drive to the mall car show 20 minutes and back so we can say they "ran" on the street.

[Bill Howell]

Pro Touring is dead...

Money killed it. Things turn from fun to a business, just a normal progression.

Seriously you see sponsor show up with 10 cars, 3 of them are gutted interior full on race cars.

They had to split it up into 3 classes... with I am sure more on the way, there will be 6 and then 8...

Awd low weight, AWD race class, AWD whatever... fwd... rwd... under 2500 lbs. over 3500 lbs..

Its just part of racing, you have to have rules because the guy with more money will spend it to be a winner :)

So it just comes down to money and how much you want to spend, you try to negate that will classes and rules or you watch the same rich guy win every week... yawn..

This happens with everything, but it doesn't work so you end up a mess like normal. Rules upon rules, classes upon classes.

I would probably rather see "one set" of rules. The minute you let guys show up with huge racing slicks, stripped race cars, 2500 lb 800-1200 hp cars its over. But I also get that the guy who shows up with the winning car will keep showing up until he gets bored beating the poorer slobs, trophies are cool I understand.

I would rather see a "you win once, that car is out and in the finals or whatever, can't run until finals or next year"... next idea. omg no points and this "series" crud either... wow that gets painful. Or start a "winner class" or something

and maybe two classes, the under 50k(fun!) and unlimited money class.(class is by participant votes finalized by judges, no actual receipt bs).

None of this stripped interior crud either, seriously pro-'Touring'? hah to that touring part. make a set of rules close to street cars if your going to mentions street cars, stick to it. I laugh at pro "street" drag racing also... that a rules game also and then they get bored and go "okay guys we can run giant slicks to get those numbers down and makes street sound cool with an 8 second car!"... We will drive to the mall car show 20 minutes and back so we can say they "ran" on the street.

No argument from me on this, except the first sentence. I think you are seeing a separation between Protouring and race oriented cars. Protouring didn't start out to be another race series, it just happened. Now there is a movement to separate the two and that is great. Here's why, at least IMO. The two should NEVER have been mixed to start with, and yes, I will take some of the heat for this happening. Rethinking my plan, I realized that the two can not live together in reality due to safety constrains. If it is safe for street use, in the purest form, then it cann't have a rollbar, cage, etc. It can't have 5 point harnesses, as they clearly state on them "not for street use". You want a ticket in certain areas, get stopped wearing a 5 point harness and call it a seat belt...ha. If it is void of the afore mentioned items, no way it is safe, at speed on a race track. I know there are arguments contrary to this, however, I wouldn't want to use them in a court of law, or face a widow whose husband didn't really think he really needed a cage, at speed, on a track.......
So, to separate the two, IMO is a great thing, as speeds and competition gets faster and better.

[gmbdabest]

I've been a fan of Pro Touring from the beginning, but I never had the budget to build a car like the Red Witch or The Twister Camaro, those were beautiful STREET cars that could still go to the track. I started building a 69 Camaro and life happened, had to sell it. Now years later, new wife, new home, new job, more grey hair.....when I came back to Pro Touring I saw cars that were extremely high dollar, built to win the ridler award and road course races....I thought why even bother if I don't buy the best of the best parts and spend a fortune, my car will already be an afterthought. Finally I bought a 73 RS Z28, put coil over suspension on it, sequential port fuel injection, 4 wheel discs, a/c, more comfortable interior and will do my first autocross this year....ill probably be the slowest one out there LOL , but I don't know my car yet, don't have mega buck parts on it and honestly....I don't care! I just want to have fun and enjoy the car, after all that's why we build these things...to enjoy them, competition is great, be it show or race, but ultimately getting together with fellow car enthusiasts and admiring their visions, talking cars, having fun is more important to me.

[72BBSwinger]

I've said it before and ill say it again, put everyone on the SAME tire. They do in every other form of racing. If everybody was on a 275 Rival,zII,rs-3 whatever, the winner would be the guy with the best driving and setup. Not the guy with $5k in wheels and $2k in 315's or 335's at all 4 comers because he CAN. My car looks badass with 335's on the back but I could swap them easy for as set 275's all the way around in a heartbeat if everybody was on them at an event.

[72BBSwinger]

Call it the 275 class and awd rwd and the weight classes just like now. Then have unlimited class also. Everyone still buying 200tw tires just with a 275/35/18,275/40/17 etc in a class by themselves. Then have a shootout with all class winners.

[mikes2nd]

Not possible actually, our setups are so diverse and weird you may not be able to fit 275's on my rims. Then what?

That's too narrow for a rule(no pun intended) but its a start.

But I mean most people want to be competitive, and we all have what resources we have. Some people are running business and want to win one to make a name or its a sponsor car, some people just want to see their hard work win. I think that side is great don't get me wrong.

Any sports that start out fun and turn commercial have this issue. Heck even the Lemons racing series faced it.

[72BBSwinger]

So your saying its not possible because your current rims are to wide so that makes it a bad idea? 275's can fit on probably the widest selection of makes and body styles there is, THAT is the point. I would get a second set of wheels and tires to run in a 275 class if it existed.

[SSLance]

I tried real hard to get the SCCA to go with a tire width rule for the CAM classes... No dice there either.

[mikes70]

I love this genre. I am a car-guy. I go to car shows from time to time, but would much rather be driving (read "touring") them. I'm kinda in the midst of going ape-sh$t crazy on my 2nd gen. Recaros, LS, DSE, Forgelines, you get the pic. But the bottom line is i'm building it my way. I love the car, love driving the car, autocrossing the car and tracking it too (hence the roll bar and 4pts). I still see these fetching more coin than some of the stock builds, part of something inside of us just screams performance...dunno.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s1170.photobucket.com/albums/r530/mikearmienti/?action=view&current=TexasRoadTrip2014somemisc157.jpg)

Me and "Mayhem" and the GG Texas Road Trip in '14, drove it 4200 miles round trip....

[TheJDMan]

Are we talking about racecars or Pro-Touring cars? Or are we talking about a convergence of the two? It seems to me that the PT parts manufacturers have gotten so good with their product development that it is blurring the lines between the two. The fact that many PT cars are being driven in competition events is merely a testament to how good Pro-Touring mods have become. The increasing popularity of Pro-Touring is reflected in the growing number if venues designed to encourage the PT style. I see all of this as a maturing process. But at the same time, it is a mistake to assume that every PT build has to be a racecar. I am growing weary of these comments about the "Touring in Pro-Touring" or somehow a car is less PT if it is not autocrossed or taken to a track day. No one (except maybe my wife) has any right to tell me how I drive my car! If I choose to enter competitive events or not it is my decision. On the street or on a track my car handles and brakes orders of magnitude better today than it ever did with the stock suspension. That, to me, is what Pro-Touring is really all about. Regardless of how I use my car, it is safer to drive today than it was 40+ years ago. I cannot control how much money someone else spends on their build or what plans they ultimately have for their car, nor would I want to. Everyone here is free to build what they want and spend any sort of budget that works for them. I see the PT Racecar builds as more of the extreme expression of the style but that does not mean every PT build is a racecar. The bottom line is, build what YOU want, drive it as YOU see fit and have fun.

[72BBSwinger]

OK, if it has a backseat, its Pro-Touring, if it doesn't, its a racecar lol!

[hotrodalex]

OK, if it has a backseat, its Pro-Touring, if it doesn't, its a racecar lol!

I have the slowest racecar on the forum then. LOL

[tazzz25906112]

The term and events called pro-touring has morphed over the last few years to say the least.... I remember actively being involved the run to SEMA and founding the RatPack,, and also the years with the American Street car series running and morphing... Then came the Ultimate Street car series, Orange cone, and now SCCA with a series...

Bottom line, the only constant is change... I take my hat off to all that built it, I have heavily supported this corner of the hobby we call Pro-touring both financially and physically doing my best to bring friends with common car interests together. The umbrella "pro-touring" is alive well and constantly changing.. This is an excellent sign that it will survive as change brings creativity & development that we all benefit from.. So take your car, improve it, enjoy it, enjoy and support the people that bring these events to us....

If I could be critical of any one area of the the term "Pro-touring" it would be this point.... Everyone has a opinion about what the term means and yet I rarely see the term "Friends, fraternity, social mindset " used in describing Pro-touring as a term... It's generally reference to defining as a mechanical object which is sad... I'd cast aside all my cars for the friends and extended family I call ""Pro-touring"",,, and I'm twice as happy I don't have to do that all things said LOL.. Seriously though gang,, lets worry less about defining it and more about getting together with the common interests we share..

My good friends there are so many of you I miss seeing... I have had some health issues and some setbacks,, but I'm still here and look forward to see you all,,, so lets worry about making memories together,, not making definitions... Lets build """More""",,, more friends,, more cars,, more lasting memories and spend less time playing keyboard warriors debating definitions that don't bring anything good to the community.... So lets drink, lets eat , lets make enjoyable memories because in the end that's investing in ""Pro-touring"" at it's best....

[vintageracer]

Hey Albert!

Let's EAT!!!!!

[DesertFox]

Seriously though gang,, lets worry less about defining it and more about getting together with the common interests we share..

My good friends there are so many of you I miss seeing... I have had some health issues and some setbacks,, but I'm still here and look forward to see you all,,, so lets worry about making memories together,, not making definitions... Lets build """More""",,, more friends,, more cars,, more lasting memories and spend less time playing keyboard warriors debating definitions that don't bring anything good to the community.... So lets drink, lets eat , lets make enjoyable memories because in the end that's investing in ""Pro-touring"" at it's best....
Preach on northern brother ;)
Hope to see you this spring..

[James OLC]

Who really wants to push their pride and joy and years of blood sweat and tears to the limits with concrete barriers inches from your mirrors?

:drive1:

Maybe

:)

[79-TA]

This thread started out talking about the monetary value of "PT race" cars at auctions etc. The basic problem of a PT car is that it is a modified car. Cars are rarely worth the sum of their parts, especially aftermarket or replacement parts. Modification, unfortunately, creates uncertainty about the quality of the parts installed, the compatibility of parts installed, the quality of the installation, and the treatment of the car that necessitated the replacement in the first place all while making the car less original and authentic for collectors and preservationists.

The base platform of a PT car has value that will suffer less depreciation (or enjoy more appreciation) than a typical modern car, but I generally view PT cars as a fun way to spend money, not invest it.



As for the "what is pro-touring vs racing vs not racing" conversations, just build cool cars that you can drive, enjoy, and compete a bit with. The pro-touring segment aspires for cars to excel at all aspects, despite conflicting demands of speed, comfort, and reliability . . . while being built on tired old outdated platforms. When someone succeeds, they're blamed for spending too much money. When someone has success, but doesn't spend all the money, they're criticized for compromising some aspect of the car or not having a support convoy to allow them to drive cross-country or whatever. No one has the exact same circumstances, vision, or level of commitment, so don't worry when someone leaves off one of the items on your checklist, especially if they're not claiming a particular label. (I myself struggle with this when I get frustrated with people who build performance cars and never enter them in even the safest of autocrosses.)

I'd love to see the CAM class continue to be an antithesis to the pedantic rule-writing tendencies of the SCCA. The USCA has a pretty good structure for servicing the OUSCI.

[vintageracer]

This thread started out talking about the monetary value of "PT race" cars at auctions etc.

No it didn't.

It started with ME talking about the discussion I had with other PT enthusiasts while at the BJ Auction and asking everyone about trend of building "Dedicated PT Race Car Build's" and is that trend already on the way out.

Several other's have also posted about the value of PT cars at auction however that was not the original intent of my original post. It just so happened that all of us were at the BJ Auction when the subject of dedicated PT autocross/open track race cars came up.

[tazzz25906112]

Hey Albert!

Let's EAT!!!!!

Mike, may the BBQ be full and our stomachs as well,,, I'll look forward to it my friend....

[Poorhousenext]

OK, You guys have started sounding like the guys over on the Corvette Forums have been doing for years, "The Sky is Falling", show me the "Money", Where is the "Money".

Why in the "Hell" are you worried about prices/value/builds and what "Show cars with term PT attached to them, are if PT race car builds are on "The way out"?

Some of you must just sit at home, because for the last 3 years, I've seen more and more purpose built competion PT cars. These builds cover a wide spectrum from non Show to Show type builds with a lot of money spent on making car go fast and look Great too. I'm also seeing the Guys with their "TOURING" builds too.

Just enjoy, and be PROUD of what you have built to TOUR or Compete and TOUR. Quit worring about the state of the HOBBY, it's "FIND". Worry about the Worriers more. Maybe like old Drag Cars, you'll see intrest in collecting OLD PT builds some day.

I'm so confused about what to do, Hell, I'm trying to build a Street Legal Touring PT car that is NHRA legal 10's in 1/4 mile car with under 400 RWHP with 200 TW street tires, so it's a PT Competition Legal car, that has a flair for Show Look too...LOL. Any of those classes along is a MONEY losers, much less trying to build a car that want do any of them really well, but maybe one of them will still be "IN" next year or so.....:hammer:

[High Plains Mopars]

This.

To me, the PT world is divided up into three categories, more or less, with no distinct delineation between them:


Ring Brothers style - over the top, incredible fabrication, mega $$, impeccable craftsmanship, innovative fabrication, will hardly be driven or raced
Weekend warrior types with a project or two. Probably won't race them, but build a slick PT car with new guts
Racing crowd, which can be an all-out streetfighter style with no frills or some combo of the above




You forgot the most basic entry that is laying claiming to the title as well; any restored muscle car with lowering springs and 17"+ wheels. IMO, this is the most broadly seen interpretation of the genre among the masses, and also the segment most likely to allow profit in a build for resale scenario.

[andrewb70]

Hey Albert!

Let's EAT!!!!!

And enjoy a few adult beverages!

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

No one is worried he just asked the question. And yes we will build what we want to build and be proud of them.

The term PT now should be reserved for a 60-70's muscle car with full interior(custom or stock), a engine swap/custom engine and suspension/brake upgrades. Less and less of those are showing up to PT events :) and "PT" events are now turning into SCAA events.

But then again the rest of the world simply calls them "customs"...

So there you go, next time your at BJ, use the correct term when selling the car, your selling a "custom" car.

You'll probably get more for a custom than a PT car :)

[SRD art]

I rode in this car on an autocross course, the owner entered it in a Solo School I taught in.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-CUSTOM-TWIN-TURBO-180018

The owner and the builder were both shocked when they went for a ride in my little old car and neither one of them have been back to race with us since.



That's funny. One would like to say more dollars than sense, but as you said, maybe it wasn't built with winning an autocross in mind, or if it was, they didn't do any homework. Some cars look great, some go fast, I enjoy watching both, but my thoughts are the coolest ones do both.

Lots of good opinions here. I think pro touring will last a long while, but it's gonna get a little crazy at times what people call a pro touring car. Just like the "marketing" trend I saw for a while and quickly grew sick of was any car that someone was selling on ebay etc. that had rust or faded paint, falling apart garbage to just needing a little TLC, was called a rat rod so it would sell for a higher price. What a joke, and it ruined the market for getting an old project car at a low price. Being in marketing I can't believe how enamored people seem to get over labels, and how people will buy into something without using their brains. At the grocery store you see this in full bloom, the normal shelf tag says $1.00 and the sale tag on top of it says "special! 4 for $4.00!" It's amazing how many people will buy 4 instead of the 1 that they need.

This off an a slight tangent, but something that REALLY bugs me, (and I'm not sure why because it's just a label anyway) and annoys me to no end is when people call a new car pro touring. It's not. It's a modern car, and if it drives like a sports car it's a modern sports car. I'm under the impression pro touring evolved from, or rather was the next step after, the name pro street, it was the natural progression of the car trend. Pro street was a term used to describe a car that looked like a drag car but was driven on the street, from a pansy 300 hp 350 in a Camaro that won car shows to full blown race cars with headlights and a license plate. Primarily the pro street cars, with a few exceptions, were older cars, and a new form of customizing an old car. Pro touring cars generally look like Trans Am style road race cars, but with modern technology can now drive like a modern touring cars. Therefore the Pro Touring term. A Cobalt SS isn't a a pro touring car, nor is a new SS, or Ford Focus painted like Ken Block's car, or even arguably a new Camaro or Mustang, the latter two realistically being modern Pony or modern muscle cars. They have nothing to do with the Pro Touring term, they're not old cars with modern upgrades, they're modern cars with standard equipment. I enjoy calling my old grandpa car a pro touring car. I've spent all the time researching what makes it handle better, the money buying the right parts, and the effort to build it. I get cheated of the satisfaction in my being able to own and drive the true spirit of pro touring when a guy with a new Camaro with aftermarket wheels and carbon fiber dash inserts parks next to me at a cruise night and calls his car pro touring. Realistically it sounds a little stupid doesn't it? Me getting in a bunch over a label?

I guess my point and thoughts to add is why are we worried about whether a Pro Touring car is considered driving basically a new high end BMW with a 69 Camaro body wrap or if it's an ex Trans Am car with headlights? Why will I get points off because I removed the broken a/c system that was on my car when I bought it and because of my tight budget spent the money it would have cost to fix it on suspension parts instead? Why would we give a guy that builds a pretty $150K cruiser a hard time because he chooses not to race it? Weren't some Pro Street cars surely pretty but entirely useless at the track and some ran 9's at the track with aluminum interiors that rattled as they drove down the road back in the day? We live in a world today of entitlement. If you watch the news or movies or TV shows it's portrayed that everybody seems to feel that they are entitled to expect everyone to cater to them and entitled to expect everyone to agree with their opinion. I say who cares. I drive a pro touring car somewhere between a sweet driver and a race car, I drive it daily, I've driven it across country twice, I don't mind driving it 6-10 hours to events, and I autocross as much as I can. I say what you do to your car and call it is up to you and that's cool, who am I to say otherwise? Now we can both enjoy them and not have to worry about fitting into a specific niche or label and do what we like with our cars.