Disc brakes for 15” wheels.

[PT Goat]

I’m looking to install 4-wheel power disc brakes on my ’65 GTO, which currently has manual brakes and drums all around. I have done some mild-PT work to the suspension (BMR rear arms, rebuilt frontend, swaybars, Eibach springs) and it’s time to address the brakes. I plan on keeping the car looking relatively stock, so I’m using either 15” Rally IIs, or 15” steel wheels with poverty caps. It is important that my discs fit in these wheels, I don’t want to got to 16” or bigger. Since I won’t be showing off the brakes behind my wheels, visual impact isn’t that important. I’ve read a lot about systems from Wilwood, Baer, and SSBC, and I’ve read about stock spindles, drop spindles, tall spindles, disc brake spindles. It is very important to me that the system be designed to work together…I really don’t want to be buying parts from 5 different vendors and hoping they will all bolt up and work. I’d like to buy everything I need (including a full line set) from one place. Suggestions?

[Woody]

How about the Baer Serious Street sytem. They will fit most 15" wheels. They actually fit in my 14" rallye wheels.

http://baer.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/00611.3.2836615192100013304

[PT Goat]

Just what I needed to know. I was leaning towards Baer. Did their system include the master/booster and lines? Actually, what was included in their package? Thanks.

[Woody]

The system included the master cylinder, rotors, new wheel bearings & dust caps, calipers, pads, mounting brackets & hardware, and braided steel hoses. The vacuum booster is not included. If your car has operational drum brakes, the kit has everything in it to convert to operational disc brakes. The rear kits may require some machine work on your axles.

[nancejd]

Just to throw something in to the ring, but are you going to be able to find good tires to fit a 15" rim? Without a good tire, the brakes won't do much for you.

[kman67rsss]

Ive got the BAER SS kit on my 67 camaro. i have the car set up for drag racing as opposed to P-touring, but they are great brakes. i am running them manually though, no booster. the kit came with everything as woody said, the only problem was that they didnt clear my original 14" ralleys like i was told. picked up a set of 15's though with center caps and trim rings for 175 not 5 miles from my house.

nancejd, what do you consider good tires. i mean from the sounds of it he isnt going to be running it hard on the track. my car will never see a track other then a drag strip and im running BFG comp TA's or radial ta's and for the street they are probally fine.

[BonzoHansen]

Just to throw something in to the ring, but are you going to be able to find good tires to fit a 15" rim? Without a good tire, the brakes won't do much for you.

I am in the same boat, so I look forward to more responses. I know I could get even more braking with bigger wheels/tires. But I want to keep the 15" wheels on my 77Z28 (at least for now). My thought is: how can I improve the brakes with all else being the same? I would like to improve on what I have.

I was looking at the SSBC stuff, but a number of people at nastyz28 didn’t think they were worth the money over stock brakes (or a 12" upgrade).

[ProStreet R/T]

Do you want a bolt on kit or are you looking to build something truely awesome?

Few of the mopar guys have adapted viper calipers onto 12.5" rotors and they fit great under 15" wheels. Depending on the rotor surface area, pad/caliper profile, and so forth something similar could work out very well.

Check ebay for some Alcon, AP, or Wilwood nascar/arca calipers and you can easily piece the required parts together. Just have to mill a bracket from 4340 and your good to go.

[Woody]

I am in the same boat, so I look forward to more responses. I know I could get even more braking with bigger wheels/tires. But I want to keep the 15" wheels on my 77Z28 (at least for now). My thought is: how can I improve the brakes with all else being the same? I would like to improve on what I have.

Have you considered hydroboost? I orignally had drums all the way around on my '68 Camaro. I installed front discs and noticed a pretty good improvement in braking and then I installed rear discs which was a small improvement. Then I went with a Hydroboost kit and the improvement is amazing. I am afraid to step on the brakes too hard now. You would not believe the difference the Hydroboost makes.

[nancejd]

I was thinking along the lines of something like an R1 to be honest. Tire choices are pretty limited for a 15" rim, there aren't even a huge range of 16" tires anymore, most of the high performance tire development seems to be in the 17" and 18" sizes.

Maybe it doesn't matter, just something to think about before you buy a system.

[BonzoHansen]

I don’t disagree with the tire thing at all, but that isn’t in the cards right now. This car has to be done in stages, and wheels & tires may be years off (they will likely come with paint). So I am trying to fix things as I go, picking & choosing where my $$ goes. For instance, I will end up doing the front end this winter. The c/a bushings are beat. I will likely do TCAs up top and just del-a-lums for the bottoms. I am not changing springs right now, as the rear suspension is not on the immediate docket. So I am not touching the front springs either. Plus the stock tires (225/70/15) don’t allow for too much lowering. Springs are a weekend event anyway, so no real loss of time there.

Will the tires be the limiting factor? Absolutely. I can live with that for now. But I would love to tighten everything else up as good as I can. Even changing from the 225/70 to 245/60/15s will increase contact patch and decrease sidewall height, so that might help a bit.

I find the idea of hydroboost real interesting. However, I fear it would be overkill for what I have going now. Those “I’m afraid to nail the brakes…for fear of lockup” comments I’ve read a few times spook me a bit. If I were upsizing all the brakes, adding rear discs, etc., I would seriously consider it. But it doesn’t sound worth it right now.

To be honest, my brake plans at the moment (and of course I reserve the right to modify this plan at anytime) are not complicated. New hardware in the rear, SS hoses all around, along with solid SFB & SFC. I am starting to read about performance shoes & pads; they might help over the generic replacement crap in there now. I may come back with pad related questions (composition, brands, etc.).

So it is the front calipers (& rotors) I am still at a loss for anything other than upgraded pads. The viper setup mentioned above sounds intriguing, but the comment “Just have to mill a bracket from 4340 and your good to go” knocks me out of that race. :) I am considering the so-called 12” swap, but I hear pros & cons about it and need to do more research, will it work with the TCA, impact on camber/caster, etc.

Hey, isn’t it more challenging when there are odd restraints!

[PT Goat]

Just to throw something in to the ring, but are you going to be able to find good tires to fit a 15" rim? Without a good tire, the brakes won't do much for you.

Good point - I'm going for a bit of a sleeper look, so I am going with redlines from Diamondback on 15x7 steel wheels with poverty caps. I was quoted $175 for a 225/60/15 BFG G-Force TA, which is about all I'm going to be able to fit once lowered. Front fender clearance is going to be an issue, so I'm not ordering tires until I'm all setup and can take some measurements. Right now I'm running a 215/65/15 Diamondback redline which is a Dayton tire.

I went ahead and ordered the complete Baer Serious Street kit, and I upgraded to Eradispeed rotors. Got an unbelieveable price from Tbyrne. Now I just need to decide who I'm ordering my lines from, leaning towards Right Stuff Detailing or Inline Tube.

Should I go with a disc/disc proportioning valve, or the Baer inline adjustable? I think I'd feel safer avoiding the adjustable.

[nancejd]

Are you going with Baer's kit all around or just the fronts? I would probably go with whatever they recommended.

[PT Goat]

I ordered front and rear. They sell the adjustable for the rear, but I don't know that it's all they'd recommend. I tried their tech, and he's out until next week. I have plenty of time to wait with Baer's production backup.

[1977nova]

is there much benifit from using the baer brakes? Forgive my ignorance but I dont know much about them. The rotor size is the same as stock.

[PT Goat]

I'm by no means an expert, but when comparing Baer to other conversion kits, I saw several advantages, despite the stock rotor size. Braided stainless lines and two piston calipers, along with cross-drilled/slotted rotors are all upgrades over other more stock appearing conversions. The best part for me was that it bolts up to just about any spindle, including the stock drum spindle. For me, that makes the install much simpler. On top of all of that, the price I got from Tbyrne was right in line with most stock-appearing conversions with standard rotors, single-piston calipers, and NO lines included.

[1977nova]

would you say it would be better than a 12" conversion with ws6 rears? I dont really want slotted rotors or anything fancy looking. I was thinking about using willwood aluminum calipers for weight savings. If they are better than this setup I would have to consider baer.

[CFster]

I just installed an SSBC kit on a 67 with 14" rims - nice kit. Comes with everything, calipers, pads, rotors, knuckles, hoses, lines, clips, master, power booster and brake pushrod. It all looks like GM stuff to me.

[79TransAm]

SSBC makes kits for my 79 T/A that fits 15" wheels. Dual piston alum calipers for the front single piston alum calipers for the rear and vented rotors 11" front and back.

[79T/Aman]

BONZO, what pros and cons did you hear about the 12" swap? , is it for your 77 or 67 camaro?

[Analog-kid]

I'am going for the same thing as Bonzo. I'm rebuilding the suspension on my 80 Camaro, due to budget I will be running refreshed drums and looking for a slight upgrade to the fronts with minimal changes for now. I was looking at Baer's serious street kit but see no listing for 78-81 Camaros. SSBC offers a caliper upgrade that fits the stock system. Anyone have experience with these? Us second gen guys seem to get the shaft alot when it comes to kits like these unless you go with their higher end kits..

[BonzoHansen]

BONZO, what pros and cons did you hear about the 12" swap? , is it for your 77 or 67 camaro?
The 1977 Z28. This is, for now, a driver I am not spending big $$ on. After the 67 is done (likely more of a cruiser than a corner carver), then I plan to return to this car for full body off & paint and making it really turn & stop. Thus the need to stay with 15”s for now; and I understand my steel 5-spokes have clearance issues. I think the SSBC stuff is too much $$ if I plan to ditch it in a few years. The front calipers are $400, and the rear setups are $850.

Right now, I think I am staying simple. Steel hoses, ceramic pads, resurface my rotors (they are thick & I’m not sold on how much performance slotted rotors will buy me). I am seriously looking at late 70s TA rear brake setups. I transplanted those style calipers in the back of my 82 years ago, so I am familiar with them. I think that should outperform the car new.

79T/Aman, I’d have to go back and research, but as I remember it is uncomfortable ball joint angles, that and getting the right parts (I guess the ball joint design varies). And I don’t have time to junkyard pick any day soon. If I trip on the info I read again, I will be sure to get it to you. Now that I think about it, I may have read it at a vendor site, so maybe there was a skew. I have since learned that the 12” swap won’t work with the steel 5-spoke Z wheels, so that kills it either way. But I wasn’t ready to jump into it.

BTW, I will likely be heading your way for SFC. :)

[79T/Aman]

hey bonzo the info you have about issues with the 12" 1LE swap is on the first gen cars, it's a bolt on to your 77 it will have to be re aligned as the toe will be way off, the ball joints are unaffected, I'm not sure on the fit with the steel 15" Z wheels but it seems to me they should fit I ran 1LE brakes on my T/A for years with stock 15" aluminium wheels.

[LTorres]

I'am going for the same thing as Bonzo. I'm rebuilding the suspension on my 80 Camaro, due to budget I will be running refreshed drums and looking for a slight upgrade to the fronts with minimal changes for now. I was looking at Baer's serious street kit but see no listing for 78-81 Camaros. SSBC offers a caliper upgrade that fits the stock system. Anyone have experience with these? Us second gen guys seem to get the shaft alot when it comes to kits like these unless you go with their higher end kits..

We've heard the Stage 1 kits with SS flex lines (front/rear) Porterfield Carbon-kevlar R4S Pads/front and R4s shoes/rear, with Slotted front rotors are the way to go on the second gen. Much more affordable than going with a "higher end kit".

[BonzoHansen]

hey bonzo the info you have about issues with the 12" 1LE swap is on the first gen cars, it's a bolt on to your 77 it will have to be re aligned as the toe will be way off, the ball joints are unaffected, I'm not sure on the fit with the steel 15" Z wheels but it seems to me they should fit I ran 1LE brakes on my T/A for years with stock 15" aluminum wheels.You may very well be right on my confusion. I keep reading articles about each gen. Your stock TA 15" wheels, were they 15x8?


We've heard the Stage 1 kits with SS flex lines (front/rear) Porterfield Carbon-kevlar R4S Pads/front and R4s shoes/rear, with Slotted front rotors are the way to go on the second gen. Much more affordable than going with a "higher end kit".So you are saying the stock SSBC calipers (Direct bolt-on Force 10 SuperTwin (http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/products/detail/3829/?make=Chevrolet&model=Camaro&year=1977)) are probably an improvement over the stock setup? Do you really feel slotted rotors make much of a difference?

[LTorres]

So you are saying the stock SSBC calipers (Direct bolt-on Force 10 SuperTwin (http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/products/detail/3829/?make=Chevrolet&model=Camaro&year=1977)) are probably an improvement over the stock setup? Do you really feel slotted rotors make much of a difference?[/QUOTE]

No...not SSBC our stage 1 kits. I do not feel that slotted rotors alone would make a whole lot of difference. Nor do I feel the same about just changing Pads or just changing the rubber flex hoses. It is the combined difference in all parts that are chosen in a Stage 1 kit or full blown kit that you should be looking into. Slotted rotors are only 1 piece of the puzzle. Furthermore, I'd like to add that I am not indicating that any of these (pads, ss flex, or slotted rotors) hold any more relevance than the other. In other words the more you want to spend, the bettter improvements you will see. PM me and I'll give you our price on the stage 1 kit for your second gen. I would venture to say it is in the neighborhood of $275-375 (for 2 OE size slotted only rotors, SS Flex lines (3 total) and 1 front set of R4s and then optionally 1 rear set of R4S shoes for the rear.

[Analog-kid]

Ltorres, PM sent.

[79T/Aman]

Bonzo, yes they were the 15X8 snowflake wheels.

[BonzoHansen]

Ltorres, PM sent.
What the Rush fan said!