82-92 Camaro Suspension - Custom or Bolt on?

[mitch_04]

Finally found my "high school car"! While not the exact one, it's what I wanted... a rust-free t-top 1984 Camaro shell. While I don't have the funds to build it immediately, I do have the funds to plan it!

I've had it in my head that I'd cut out the floor pan and build a frame with C5/6 components in front and a 3-link solid axle rear with C5/6 wheel bearings. However, I'm curious how competitive the third gens are with all the bolt on parts and a solid drivetrain.

Thoughts?

[rchaskin]

Detroit Speed and Ridetech both have parts in process for these cars......

[mitch_04]

You just got me excited!!!

Still curious, would a well designed bolt on system lose much over a well designed full frame build?

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I'll be listening, just paid for an 82 Z28 I want to get pretty serious on (it's not yet home, pending space!).

[woodside783]

That is the best news I have herd in a long time!!!!!!!!!!!

[Project92rs]

With just bolt ons, we've consistently finished mid pack at all the Pro Touring events we've been to. All the fabrication skills and bolt on parts won't help nearly as much as just getting out there with the car and driving the tires off it though.

[Schwartz Performance]

We'll be coming out with products soon as well.

Here's one of our test cars

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/14887399735_7a2822d062_z-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/15387456603_d20f69e5d3_z-1.jpg

Just be patient!!! You'll have more options soon!!!

-Dale

[CA B4C]

The factory suspension architecture is not bad. Common mods like stiffer springs, good shocks, and suspension bushings will get you decent results . Availability of contemporary shock technology has been the weak link lately. With new products on the horizon from Ridetech and DSE for these cars, add a decent motor, and these cars should be able to run in the top 10% of most events.

[BADNBLK]

I'm really excited to see the new parts that some of use third gen guys have been waiting decades for. Makes me want to hold off on buying any suspension upgrades until I have a better idea on what is coming.

OP start a thread man. I'll follow it!

[BADNBLK]

Finally found my "high school car"! While not the exact one, it's what I wanted... a rust-free t-top 1984 Camaro shell. While I don't have the funds to build it immediately, I do have the funds to plan it!


You gotta post up pics of your HS car man!

[NWFreerider]

My '91 Z28 is almost done. I have installed mostly UMI suspension aside from the shocks and springs which are Koni and Eibach. The subframe connectors are being installed tomorrow and I hope to notice a difference. Everyone on Thirdgen.org has said they make a world of difference for stiffening up the unit body. I just got the car in October of '14 so I haven't driven it much but it was a night and day difference with the new suspension over stock and the car only has 34,000 miles on it. To me it handles like a slot car but it is my first car project and I'm used to driving my truck and Jeep. Just got my BFG Rivals mounted on 18" Boze Pro Touring wheels that took 2.5 months to get but were worth the wait. They look amazing and mounted on 275/35-18s weigh 1lb more than the stock 16" wheel/tire setup. I will post pics when I get the car back on Friday if it isn't dark or raining. Since I am new to the car thing, I think my car handles great and am looking forward to some autox and road course track days this summer. I'm sure the companies that are coming out with more modern suspension will be able to make these cars handle like a modern performance car but the money it will take will the factor as to how many people can afford to go that route.

[DesertFox]

(Not so) quietly waiting for the new offerings..
HURRY UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!

[mitch_04]

I should scan some pics of it. It wasn't much, just a hardtop v6. I painted it black with silver metal flake and super dark blue & purple flames, air bag suspension. Wasn't great by any means, but I learned a lot working on it. I still need to get pics of the "new" one. It doesn't look like much, but you have to have starting pics!

I've emailed most every vendor and they all aren't very far in on the part development yet. I asked if it was going to be stronger replacement parts or all new design (Like 3/4 link in the rear or C5/6 in the front) and everyone said they didn't know yet. I've got a deployment coming up, hopefully after that the parts will be ready and I'll have the money!

[87camaroZ28]

I have been waiting a long time to see what everyone comes out with. I asked this very question years ago, Detroit Speed and Schwartz Performance advised that the platform can be made to perform very well and be competitive with bolt-on parts. A fabricated chassis could be done but the cost versus benefit ratio may not be the best. If you have the money anything can be built and tuned to perform better than the stock geometry. I decided to go with bolt-ons. I'm pretty sure the driver will need far more work to be competitive than the combination of parts on my car.



Greg

[wendell]

Get on the ASedan forum and learn all you'll ever want to know about making a 3rd gen fast. The real fast. Might not all come in a box with free stickers but with a little ingenuity (think "hot rodding") you'll have a hell of a ride. SCCA sedan racing might not be what it used to be but the 3rd gen fbody has been a competitive chassis for 20 years.

[BADNBLK]

(Not so) quietly waiting for the new offerings..
HURRY UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!

HAHA! I see to be more pushy on FB about it lol!


I agree with what most have said that the cars handle well out of the box and minor improvements can make these cars contenders, as their track record in many racing circuits out there have proven. I'm excited to see what new technology and designs will come up with to take my car to the next level.

[LS1-IROC]

I'm excited to see some new stuff, my savings account, not so much. I just hope these companies deliver. I've been around the 3rd gen game for over 20 years and I have heard alot of promises in the past about "new parts coming".

[rchaskin]

I'm excited to see some new stuff, my savings account, not so much. I just hope these companies deliver. I've been around the 3rd gen game for over 20 years and I have heard alot of promises in the past about "new parts coming".

Go ahead and start saving.......I have personally saw a stripped 3rd gen shell inside DSE.........:fingersx:
They did not say about the style of any of the parts, but DSE always goes above and beyond in my book.

[Project92rs]

Go ahead and start saving.......I have personally saw a stripped 3rd gen shell inside DSE.........:fingersx:
They did not say about the style of any of the parts, but DSE always goes above and beyond in my book.

But some of us heard that news from DSE over a year ago and we're still waiting....

[LS1-IROC]

But some of us heard that news from DSE over a year ago and we're still waiting....

LOL, that'a my point. Talk is cheap. Few companies have delivered so far. I think with the popularity of these cars increasing every year it's only a matter of time before companies will take notice.

[rchaskin]

But some of us heard that news from DSE over a year ago and we're still waiting....


LOL, that'a my point. Talk is cheap. Few companies have delivered so far. I think with the popularity of these cars increasing every year it's only a matter of time before companies will take notice.

LOL.....I'm on your side guys.....Just telling you what I saw......I was there in like the middle of December.

[mitch_04]

DSE was in the "drawing board" stage when I emailed them (a couple days ago). They had no time estimate. Other companies that I've emailed seemed to be in the 3-6 month range, so expect a year?

[BADNBLK]

Well I'm kinda glad I'm working on an engine swap instead of trying to buy suspension goodies. Next year could be a GOOD year!

[DesertFox]

LOL, that'a my point. Talk is cheap. Few companies have delivered so far. I think with the popularity of these cars increasing every year and enthusiasts willing to spend money for quality parts it's only a matter of time before companies will take notice.
fixed it for ya ;)
Sadly I think part of the 3rd gen's issues are some of the people who wander TGO in search of used spark plugs. Companies don't want to sink funds into R & D on parts they're not sure will sell. it's too much of a risk...

[mitch_04]

I think the market for 3rd gens is a few years from peaking, seems like the 2nd gens are on the rise currently. However, it'd be smart for the aftermarket manufacturers to be ready for that influx. I will agree, I've seen a lot of cheapies on TGO.

[87camaroZ28]

“Be Patient” OK, so many of us are waiting with crossed fingers that some cool parts are about to come our way from reputable companies with awesome engineering capabilities. A couple years ago while inquiring about parts several companies told me that there simply isn’t a big demand for 3rd generation Camaro parts so development of parts for that platform it wasn’t high on their list of priorities. Most already had parts in development for more collectable muscle cars that would ultimately be more lucrative for them (They gotta make money to stay in business). There was a consensus that 3rd gen enthusiasts can’t or won’t spend a lot of money on their cars. I couldn’t even get anyone to tell me what products they might try to develop.
I’m hoping that whatever comes to market is worth the wait. In fact they should bring something that addresses some of the real weakness of our cars and be revolutionary. Fancy brand names on parts that are already available from many other sources aren’t going to cut it. If I’m going to spend premium money then the parts should offer a significantly measurable performance advantage over the bolt-ons already on the car. I wouldn’t mind seeing suspension kits that includes custom offset control arms and deep tubs for modern size rubber front and rear. How about a coilover kit that uses those new JRI coilovers with air adjustable ride height or a transmission cross member kit that has new tunnel sheet metal and will allow fitment of a T56 magnum. Tremec supposedly has an early style T56 with Magnum internals, anyone seen that yet? How about a bolt in fuel tank with a Vapor Works module already fitted, a modular shock tower brace…I could go on and on about what parts would be cool but I’m really just sitting here with my fingers crossed hoping to see genuine interest from manufacturers to develop truly awesome parts for our beloved 3rd gen Camaros.



Greg

[87camaroZ28]

Of everyone that I talked to Dale at Schwartz Performance seemed the most interested and genuine. He previously advised that they experimented with a bolt in chassis for the 3rd gen. However, it was a lot of work to make the conversion and not many people were willing to spend that much on their 3rd gen. It's been about two years since those conversations so I have high hopes that he has been able to bring the 3rd gen chassis adjustability and performance to a comparable level as their chassis systems for other cars. Dale, do you need another development mule?



Greg

[LS1-IROC]

A "bolt-in" whole front new clip would be awesome. Something that would correct some of the goofy geometry going on up there.
A vintage air unit to fit under the dash would be awesome too. Get rid of all that bulk in the engine compartment.

[mitch_04]

Well...since it's along the lines of this thread...

What is the biggest downfalls of the 3rd gen's suspension design?

[a67]

Well...since it's along the lines of this thread...

What is the biggest downfalls of the 3rd gen's suspension design?

Some of them...

The weak front frame rails were they flex & crack around the steering box

The torque arm that creates rear wheel hop on heavy braking

The lack of decent brakes (unless factory 1LE brakes are on the car)

The goofy Ackerman angles on high steering angles

No anti-dive in the front when braking

The upper strut mounts that flex a lot

The rear panhard bar that causes jacking under hard right turns

The rear roll center that is too high

The rear upper shock mounts that crack and pull out of the body

Lack of camber gain on front suspension compression

There are others but off the top of my head these are what I came up with. No matter, I'll still give many other cars on the road a run for their money with my '92. But then again, it isn't factory stock either...

Bob.

[Schwartz Performance]

Nah we've got 3 third gens in the family, unless you want to pay a "little bit" to have us build you a chassis ;)

-Dale

[Interceptor5588]

Many of the suspension shortcomings can be fixed, with enough time, effort and/or money. Out of the the box they handle much better than any of the factory muscle we usually start with on PT.com. The roof of my 92 Formula is a full 4" below the roof of my old Buick Regal T-Type, both lowered about 2", so the CG is that much lower for starters. It weighed about 300 lbs less as well. Probably the thirdgen's biggest downside is the 52/48 weight distribution and that's difficult to correct. You can drive around it most of the time but there are some places on the track where it's just so obvious.

Many of the issues listed above are the result of the lightweight design, and the fixes for them ultimately add some of the weight back in. There are now "roadrace" designed front K-members that should pull about 50 lbs off the nose but the jury is still out on whether they are truly up to the punishment of road racing . . . and who really wants to be the guinea pig for that?

Significant gains can be had with bolt-on parts for all of the above issues, but thirdgens have similar limitations on tire size to the ones all of our cars face, and there's probably no cheap fix for that.

[87camaroZ28]

Four years ago that was an easy sale! Three years ago you talked me out of it! Now I have one in college, one sending out applications and I just got a new hip...LOL! Well, with three already in the family I'd like to think that my faith in you to eventually market some great parts for us isn't misplaced.


Greg

[LS1-IROC]

I'd love a properly engineered bolt in K member. The current manufacturers all tap dance around the question when you ask about how much engineering they put into their designs. When you mention things like torsional rigidity, fatigue strength and FEA analysis, they all go quiet.

[rchaskin]

........OK

Now everyone check the DSE catalog.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/DSE_Catalog-15/Detroit-Speed-Catalog-15.html

8 Pages of 3rd gen parts.

[Project92rs]

........OK

Now everyone check the DSE catalog.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/DSE_Catalog-15/Detroit-Speed-Catalog-15.html

8 Pages of 3rd gen parts.


The quadralink looks interesting but the rest is largely items that have been marketed by others with a DSE twist to the design. The new JRI shock options are interesting but I just don't see that many $3000 sets of front struts selling. All goes back to how cheap most third gen owners tend to be. But I'll definitely be having a discussion with them the next event I see them at which will probably be GoodGuys Del Mar.

[rchaskin]

LOL...I never said it was cheap!

The only thing I get from them that is cheap, is BBQ dinner at their open house.......

[Project92rs]

LOL...I never said it was cheap!
.


True. So very true when you get into serious performance parts. But aside from the rear setup and the new shock options, most of what they have is stuff I can already get from other sources. Weight jacks have been available for years. Sway bars, steering shaft, caster camber plates, panhard, etc have all been around. The unique bits are the rear Quadralink and the new shock / strut options. I'll still look at all of their stuff and see if the mfg quality makes it worth swapping onto the car though.