Wilwood " Super Pedal "

[langleylad]

I've been thinking about the brake master cylinder / booster combo and which way I should go on my LS powered 68 Cougar project . I stumbled across this option , what are your thoughts ?
http://www.fabquest.com/search-by-car-make-model/ford-mustang-and-cougar-64-70/wilwood-super-pedal-dual-master-brake-pedal-assembly.html

[LS7 Z/28]

I've been thinking about the brake master cylinder / booster combo and which way I should go on my LS powered 68 Cougar project . I stumbled across this option , what are your thoughts ?
http://www.fabquest.com/search-by-car-make-model/ford-mustang-and-cougar-64-70/wilwood-super-pedal-dual-master-brake-pedal-assembly.html

There are a lot of guys running Wilwood pedals with great success. They are a great product and I've used them for many years in racecars.

You can get the same set up for cheaper here:

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4958

I'm assuming you are running an automatic trans since you are only looking at the brake pedal?

If not here is the double pedal setup:

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4983

[langleylad]

There are a lot of guys running Wilwood pedals with great success. They are a great product and I've used them for many years in racecars.

You can get the same set up for cheaper here:

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4958

I'm assuming you are running an automatic trans since you are only looking at the brake pedal?

If not here is the double pedal setup:

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4983

Thanks for the heads up on the cheaper price , it all adds up . Yes , I'm running a 4L65E trans behind the LQ9 6.0 .

[bonebuster29]

those pedals look really small on the double system, seems like anyone with bigger shoe size would be hitting the clutch and brake at the same time... Anybody have experience using the double pedal?

[latoracing]

This is a little ironic as the FedUP guy showed up with this the other day...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/latoracing/media/IMG_20150119_165205_zpsklivn9o0.jpg.html)

The pedal area isn't huge, but is defiantly larger than some econo boxes I have driven. The spacing is wide enough that using the clutch will not get my size 12 1/2's close to the brake pedal. A little fab work, and this ought to be a fairly straight forward upgrade. We'll find out...

[ADiCarlo]

I have the double pedal piece mounted in my car but haven't driven it yet. Speedway sells a support plate that makes mounting easier.

[no go nova]

I want these style pedals but that will work in stock mouting location.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I have the double pedal piece mounted in my car but haven't driven it yet. Speedway sells a support plate that makes mounting easier.

Do you have a part number for that plate?
Thanks.

[langleylad]

Do you have a part number for that plate?
Thanks.

Part # 91641025

[Spork82]

I made mine from 3/8 aluminum and boxed in my firewall area with 18ga. Made it work in a 68 Mustang

[langleylad]

So is this set up as good as the conventional pairing of booster/master cylinder ? and is this a track only piece or will it live very happily in a Pro-Touring vehicle ?

[Spork82]

When paired with the right set of master cylinders for your brakes it will be as powerful as a boosted system with better feel.

Street or track use. Mine is a street car with wilwood 6 piston and 4 piston brakes.

Your keeping the car auto or thinking of going manual? I think wilwood has a single pedal dual master system.

[langleylad]

When paired with the right set of master cylinders for your brakes it will be as powerful as a boosted system with better feel.

Street or track use. Mine is a street car with wilwood 6 piston and 4 piston brakes.

Your keeping the car auto or thinking of going manual? I think wilwood has a single pedal dual master system.

Automatic , yes they do offer a single pedal/dual master system . There is a link in my first post .

[Peter Mc Mahon]

This is looking like the right product for me. I am a little sketchy on if I have room in the engine compartment for it [coyote motors are huge!] so I see they have a interior model. Not sure about when you have to fill the master cylinder, but thats another story.

[bovey]

I'm in need of changing my pedal set-up too. As you can imagine the stock set-up on a early 70s C10 is not exactly a heal-toe kinda thing. The timing of this thread is fantastic.

Bovey

[LS7 Z/28]

This is looking like the right product for me. I am a little sketchy on if I have room in the engine compartment for it [coyote motors are huge!] so I see they have a interior model. Not sure about when you have to fill the master cylinder, but thats another story.

You should most definitely have the room. You're going to want to mock everything up so you can position the pedals to your liking anyway. You can also use this setup in the link below, which allows you to move the pedal pad right or left which helps if you have to move the whole setup towards the driver's side.

Part # PRP11295W

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4983

Don't use the reverse mount setup. Those are solely intended for racing and they suck. Even with an access door to get at the Master cylinders, they are a pain to fill up and brake fluid eats paint like crazy when you spill. It would also not be cool if you have carpet in your car.


those pedals look really small on the double system, seems like anyone with bigger shoe size would be hitting the clutch and brake at the same time... Anybody have experience using the double pedal?

If you are serious about using these pedals the setup I linked above would be a better option since you can adjust the spacing. Also, these are race pedals and are intended to be used with racing shoes which are thin, so if you you are using this setup on the street or track or wherever it would be a good idea to wear some running shoes or something that has a narrow sole just to be safe. Steel Toe Boots or Basketball shoes aren't as easy with man sized feet.

[parsonsj]

The real difficulty with these pedals is packaging them with an ordinary steering column. Good car ergonomics puts the brake pedal directly underneath the column.

I wrote about this a while ago:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/interior/sucp-1108-drivers-seat-ergonomics-unfair-takes-a-seat/

[Spork82]

Another thing to consider is mounting, Mine are bolted to the firewall and then I made a bracket to bolt the top of the pedal assembly to my steering column mount under the dash. There is no flex at all now, very rigid. There are some members that have done the reverse mount pedals and relocated the bowls to the center of the dash and made a cover over the speaker hole too fill up.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

[QUOTE=LS7 Z/28;1113307]You should most definitely have the room. You're going to want to mock everything up so you can position the pedals to your liking anyway. You can also use this setup in the link below, which allows you to move the pedal pad right or left which helps if you have to move the whole setup towards the driver's side.

Motor and steering column are already in, just from where I want the gas pedal to the column is not much room. Plenty of room for a brake lever, but on the motor side of the compartment, not a lot of room for a master cylinder. Also, how is there side to side adjustability? the pad can adjust on the pedal?

No carpet in my truck so I am not too worried about getting brake fluid on the floor.

Part # PRP11295W

http://www.performancebodies.com/Product-Detail.aspx?parentCatId=5&subcatid=13&categoryName=Brake%20&pid=4983

Don't use the reverse mount setup. Those are solely intended for racing and they suck. Even with an access door to get at the Master cylinders, they are a pain to fill up and brake fluid eats paint like crazy when you spill. It would also not be cool if you have carpet in your car.

[LS7 Z/28]

Also, how is there side to side adjustability? the pad can adjust on the pedal?


Part # PRP11295W Has aluminum pads that adjust side to side. It works great. The other styles do not adjust and just have grip tape.

[jaybee]

Recently I was playing in a brake design spreadsheet and discovered just how difficult it is to get everything working optimally when you mix and match parts. Then I found the Wilwood Super Pedal and found that the differently sized m/c's and balance bar can fix issues that proportioning valves only mask.

I'd like to confirm my thinking about the design, however. As I think this through the secret to reasonable pedal pressure has to be the 7:1 pedal ratio. Is it fair to say you couldn't get away with that with a conventional m/c due to excessive pedal travel?

Also, as you add up the cost of pedal assembly, m/c, proportioning valve, and booster the price is very competitive. I did a track drive in a stock car with just this pedal setup and it felt fantastic (although I'm sure the calipers had a lot to do with that too...it's a system after all). Unless I've overlooked something it seems like a fantastic option even for a street car.

[David Pozzi]

Custom Works sells a CNC dual MC conversion that uses the stock pedals. It's a bolt on setup. We put one on Mary's 73 Camaro when we couldn't get enough rear brake using a single MC and prop valve. An easier way to go for an already running car.
http://www.customworksperformance.net/brakes.html
108545

[carbuff]

David,

I've seen that unit before but have never seen anyone who has actually used it. Glad to hear that you chose it. Any pictures of the installed setup by chance?

[David Pozzi]

108565

[carbuff]

Thanx for the picture. I can't exactly tell from the picture, but how do you make the adjustment? Is the bar threaded between the 2 pushrods, and if so, how do you go about turning it?

[jaybee]

That's a really nice unit. Looks like you have a cable for adjustment from inside the car?

[David Pozzi]

We had a remote cable adjuster on the proportioning valve, I transferred it to the balance bar & it works fine. The factory MC mounting studs have to be removed, the dual assy has studs & nuts go on them inside the car. If you grab the studs with vise grips & wiggle them, the spot welds will break & they come out.

[68EFIvert]

I have a new Wilwood dual master cylinder pedal Ashly sitting in my garage. I could not get it to work with my Volvo project. It was used to mock up but was never bolted in. My master cylinders would have been under the front fender. LOL! PM me if you are interested in making me an offer on it. It is part number 340-1287.

[David Pozzi]

Thanx for the picture. I can't exactly tell from the picture, but how do you make the adjustment? Is the bar threaded between the 2 pushrods, and if so, how do you go about turning it?

The rod ends are threaded internally. It came with jam nuts on the rod but I removed them & installed the adjuster cable. Without the cable, you would loosen the jam nuts and turn the rod. I don't recall if the rod had an allen socket in one end but if it didn't you could put two nuts on the end and turn that if more than hand pressure was needed. Mine was a little tight and I double nutted the rod and ran it back and forth a bunch of times with an air ratchet to loosen it up. What you are adjusting is the spherical bearing position inside the silver tube, moving it left/right.

[David Pozzi]

Here's a closer shot of the balance bar.

108586

[langleylad]

Why was this thread moved ?

[Nothingface5384]

Its looks like two ebrake pedals lol

[Ron Sutton]

I'm glad David shared these CNC assemblies. I also recommend these when you're running the factory pedal, as they are a better route than using a proportioning valve. I have them listed in all the common master cylinder combinations I offer HERE (http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=752085&c=7250).

:cheers:

[langleylad]

I'm glad David shared these CNC assemblies. I also recommend these when you're running the factory pedal, as they are a better route than using a proportioning valve. I have them listed in all the common master cylinder combinations I offer HERE (http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=752085&c=7250).

:cheers:



Nice pieces , unfortunately my Ford has a Ford pedal

[Ron Sutton]

Nice pieces , unfortunately my Ford has a Ford pedal

Sorry about that. HERE (http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=752163&c=7250)are the versions that bolt up to Fords.

:cheers:

[David LaBuda]

Does anyone with this pedal setup have pictures of how they mounted it?

[Ron Sutton]

Does anyone with this pedal setup have pictures of how they mounted it?

Hi David,

If you're asking about the side-by-side dual master cylinder set-up ... it simply replaces your single or tandem master cylinder set-up & attaches to your pedal the same way it does now. You do need to remove the factory studs as David Pozzi said.


The factory MC mounting studs have to be removed, the dual assy has studs & nuts go on them inside the car. If you grab the studs with vise grips & wiggle them, the spot welds will break & they come out.

:cheers:


.

[David LaBuda]

Hi David,

If you're asking about the side-by-side dual master cylinder set-up ... it simply replaces your single or tandem master cylinder set-up & attaches to your pedal the same way it does now. You do need to remove the factory studs as David Pozzi said.

.

Sorry Ron, I was talking about the Wilwood pedal assembly. I'm just wondering how tight the fitment will be with a factory style steering column.

[Nothingface5384]

This is the first time i seen these not bolted to a hydratech unit
would you say just this, no power booster would supply enough vacumm psi for a turbo motor?

Id also imagine the GM one would work for AMC cars?

[a67]

Then I found the Wilwood Super Pedal and found that the differently sized m/c's and balance bar can fix issues that proportioning valves only mask.


I also recommend these when you're running the factory pedal, as they are a better route than using a proportioning valve.

I've quoted and trimmed to quoting the proportioning valve versus dual M/C's and a balance bar. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I just want to be sure that there is an understanding in the proper use of each.

A proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the rear brakes, then at a 'knee point' this pressure reduction is increased. That is, as the front brake line pressure continues to increase, the rear brake pressure does not further increase in a linear fashion.

On a typical street car the reason for this is that under heavy braking there is a large shift of weight off the rear of the vehicle onto the front. In this case a proportioning valve works best as it prevents the rear brakes from locking up with the resultant swapping of the front and rear of the car.

Now take a race car or a highly modified street car, where under heavy braking there is little weight shift from the rear of the car to the front. Anti-dive geometry and high rate suspension springs help in this regard.

Now a proportioning valve doesn't work as well, as under heavy braking it is reducing the rear brake capacity when it doesn't need to. This is where a dual M/C and balance bar set up works best. As the rear brake line pressure will be linear to the front brake line pressure.

So for those that are going with the dual M/C setups, be sure that that suspension is correctly set up to reduce this rear to front weight shift under heavy braking.

Bob.

[jaybee]

Now take a race car or a highly modified street car, where under heavy braking there is little weight shift from the rear of the car to the front. Anti-dive geometry and high rate suspension springs help in this regard
Bob.

I'll be interested to see someone with more technical expertise me put in a comment...because I DON'T have the expertise to say for sure. My level of understanding leads me to believe the proportioning valve is a good tool for minor tuning, and the factories use them as a cost-effective way to put a "knee point" in the force curve to keep the rear brakes from locking first. They have the advantage of (normally) same-size tires front and rear and the ability to make the front and rear pistons and disk diameters work harmoniously with a single m/c diameter. They don't have a lot of need for differently-sized m/cs for front and rear brakes, nor a need to apply different hydraulic pressure to front and rear brakes...nor to tune for track conditions, for that matter.

Or I'm wrong...which is certainly possible based on all I've already learned about brakes here.

[CTX-SLPR]

Anyone ever used one of those Custom Works tandem setups on a GM Astro style Hydroboost?

[Ron Sutton]

I've quoted and trimmed to quoting the proportioning valve versus dual M/C's and a balance bar. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I just want to be sure that there is an understanding in the proper use of each.

A proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the rear brakes, then at a 'knee point' this pressure reduction is increased. That is, as the front brake line pressure continues to increase, the rear brake pressure does not further increase in a linear fashion.

On a typical street car the reason for this is that under heavy braking there is a large shift of weight off the rear of the vehicle onto the front. In this case a proportioning valve works best as it prevents the rear brakes from locking up with the resultant swapping of the front and rear of the car.

Now take a race car or a highly modified street car, where under heavy braking there is little weight shift from the rear of the car to the front. Anti-dive geometry and high rate suspension springs help in this regard.

Now a proportioning valve doesn't work as well, as under heavy braking it is reducing the rear brake capacity when it doesn't need to. This is where a dual M/C and balance bar set up works best. As the rear brake line pressure will be linear to the front brake line pressure.

So for those that are going with the dual M/C setups, be sure that that suspension is correctly set up to reduce this rear to front weight shift under heavy braking.

Bob.



I'll be interested to see someone with more technical expertise me put in a comment...because I DON'T have the expertise to say for sure. My level of understanding leads me to believe the proportioning valve is a good tool for minor tuning, and the factories use them as a cost-effective way to put a "knee point" in the force curve to keep the rear brakes from locking first. They have the advantage of (normally) same-size tires front and rear and the ability to make the front and rear pistons and disk diameters work harmoniously with a single m/c diameter. They don't have a lot of need for differently-sized m/cs for front and rear brakes, nor a need to apply different hydraulic pressure to front and rear brakes...nor to tune for track conditions, for that matter.

Or I'm wrong...which is certainly possible based on all I've already learned about brakes here.

Hey Guys,

A lot of what Bob said is correct ... and the final assumptions are close ... but not 100% accurate. With race cars, track cars and ProTouring cars built to perform ... the suspension strategy and brake strategy definitely need to work together. Race/Track Cars with conventional suspension set-ups of stiff front springs can run more rear brake bias. Race/Track Cars with modern high travel suspension set-ups of soft front springs can run more front brake bias.

How we get there ... proportioning valves or an adjustable brake bias pedal or M/C set up ... is a choice of what side effects you want. As we already covered:

Proportioning valves ... in the rear brake line ... reduce brake line pressure to the rear brakes, have a knee point, but overall reduce the total braking force.
Adjustable brake bias through the pedal or M/C set up ... allows the optimum bias to be achieved without reducing the total braking force.


In racing, regardless of suspension set-up ... race teams run adjustable brake bias ... so we're not losing total braking force to balance the brake bias.

:cheers: