Thinking about an LS3....

[bmbrzmn101]

My 14 year old son and I came to an agreement about the engine we will be putting in his 1951 Chevy truck. I was building a 383 stroker to put in my 67 elky and he kept eyeballing it and asking about it. So we decided he will get it(depending on grades) and I will eventually step into what I have been wanting for my elky since the beging, an LS engine. So here is where a few questions come in.

I have read about various LS platorms through the years, but really seem to drool over the LS3/T56 combo. I will be putting this into a 1967 El Camino that will be running 335/30x18 tires in the rear. I am modifying many things on this car to smooth things out and decrease weight and try to improve weight distribution some in the process. I am shooting for approx. 450-500 HP, non turbo or supercharged and good low to mid range range torque.

I would like to ask those of you with LS experience what combo's you like and why, and maybe some combo's to avoid. Yes money is always a concern but will be built over a couple of years so that will help in paying or it. Lol. The vehicle will be a driver, with hopefully some track time when I get her completed. But will be a road car primarily.

So question number

1. Would you purchase a crate engine and just try to tune it?

2. Purchase a pull out and tear down and rebuild with specific parts. ie....heads, cam, stroker, etc?

3. Combo of above choices?

4. Or a crate/rebuilt stroker LS platform?

I want this engine to remain fuel injected for driveabilty. I have never built one of these so I have a steep learning curve ahead of me and just trying to ask you that have been running these engines what mods are useful to the platform I described above.

I have googled and searched the forums the last couple of years and got a few ideas. Just looking for some real world feedback on parts or combo's before I start shelling out alot of money.

I appreciate your input.

Thanks, Chris

[Schwartz Performance]

What Trans are you planning on?

I would go with the crate LS3, probably the 480hp version. There's no reason to build up one from nothing unless you do it yourself, when there is a crate motor out there that suits your needs.
We sell a lot of the LS3 480's and a bit of the 525hp too.. The 525 moves the torque and power to higher RPM so I wouldn't recommend it for you.
If you'd like any pricing on GM Performance parts feel free to PM me or email at [email protected]

Thanks
-Dale

[andrewb70]

Chris,

The crate engines are a pretty good value and the GMPP harness kits make the whole deal plug-n-play. There is no need for tuning because there is a separate system available for the different crate engines. As Dale suggested, if you get the 480HP LS3, there is an ECU and harness kit for that engine.

Andrew

[bmbrzmn101]

Dale, I will be using a close ratio T56 2.66 first gear. I don't guess I had paid any attention to the 480 hp version, but had seen the 525. I will look into the 480 version.

Thanks again, I will have a more questions as I go along, so be patient. Lol. Once I narrow down the engine, I will be looking at accessory systems and headers.

Just trying to not waste my money and go with the best choices or compromises.

Thanks guys. Chris

[Schwartz Performance]

Dale, I will be using a close ratio T56 2.66 first gear. I don't guess I had paid any attention to the 480 hp version, but had seen the 525. I will look into the 480 version.

Thanks again, I will have a more questions as I go along, so be patient. Lol. Once I narrow down the engine, I will be looking at accessory systems and headers.

Just trying to not waste my money and go with the best choices or compromises.

Thanks guys. Chris

No problem. We can help you out with most of that stuff. Billet drives are a little expensive but usually worth it. Otherwise you can go with something like what Holley offers- which is factory-look bracketry, with factory components (AC comp, PS pump, alternator). It's like $1200 for that, versus $2300+ for a billet drive.

Hooker LS conversion kits are usually what I recommend.. they're nicely engineered.

-Dale

[bmbrzmn101]

I am looking at some of the expensive acc set ups because of looks or function. Mostly looks though. Not fond of the factory look. It it to utilitarian for my taste. Also the theme and overall look that I am going for will look better with an aftermarket setup like March or Vintage Air types.

I have looked at a Holley conversion kit, will check out the Hooker kit also. If you don't mind saying what is it about the Hooker setup you prefer over the others? Engineering, clearances?

Chris

[Bonehead]

I would agree keeping it simple. Its far easier to tune a non-boosted LS than it is to tune a boosted one. Even if you have someone else tune it for you, the daily drivability is much more simple when you aren't adjusting for the additional power adders. I didn't tune my first LS. I had someone else do it who was nice enough to explain a little of what they were doing to it. Then I bought HP tuners and started learning. Its been 5 years since I started and I've invested far more time in it than I have money. Thinking of doing the tuning school at some point and keep expanding. All that said, you wont need to do it if you don't want. Knowing what I know now? I'd buy a 500hp(ish) crate engine, throw on some headers and build a cold side and learn to tune it. I think my learning curve would have gone much faster.

Nice Elk, btw. I'm building one now also!

[bmbrzmn101]

Thanks Bonehead,

I have had this one since my dad bought it when I was 5. I learned to drive in it also. So this time when I redo it I want to do it right the first time and not go down regret lane like I did when I finished the 1st rebuild. I wanted more than I could afford back then but built what I could afford. So since my son will put this 383 to good use(smh that that even sounds logical), I decided to go with what I want. Hence the LS. I considered power adders, but for some of the reasons you mentioned and others I chose not to. After all, I realize she will spend more time street cruising than auto crossing. I have some wonderful roads and hills around here to drive through so the PT build theme won't go to waste.

I appreciate everyones input, so any others are welcome.

Chris

[Schwartz Performance]

Hooker is owned by Holley, so were talking about the same kit. It's branded by hooker, that's all.
March drives look good, I don't care for them though.. They use the stock balancer and don't come with a belt, which can be annoying.
Wegner, Vintage Air, or Billet Specialties is what you should be looking at. Concept One looks cool too.

-Dale

[bmbrzmn101]

Thanks Dale.
Useful info. I was looking into the Vintage Air and Restomod setup last night. Will look into Billet Specialties later. VA black finish is the look I am going for. I am sick of chrome and polished aluminum. Too much cleaning. My wife had a 39 Ford street rod with all the polished aluminum stuff a few years back and I don't care to spend the winter polishing everything. Lol

Thanks Chris

[Schwartz Performance]

Lol I agree with too much cleaning.

We like the Wegner drives too, they're very high quality & we've tested to 1400hp with no problems. They're only $2395 black anodized, shipped.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/16050616575_960dfd9364_z-1.jpg

[bmbrzmn101]

That's a nice clean routing of belts. I will look into that also and check on what my options will be. Still such a long way to go. Building it paper before hand helps. Have you had any experience with the ISIS wiring kits and LS platforms. I am assuming after looking over the ISIS wiring it should be straight forward with the ECM to controller connections.

[BP Automotive]

Lol I agree with too much cleaning.

We like the Wegner drives too, they're very high quality & we've tested to 1400hp with no problems. They're only $2395 black anodized, shipped.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2015/01/16050616575_960dfd9364_z-1.jpg

That is a very good looking front drive. Def. One of my favorites!


That's a nice clean routing of belts. I will look into that also and check on what my options will be. Still such a long way to go. Building it paper before hand helps. Have you had any experience with the ISIS wiring kits and LS platforms. I am assuming after looking over the ISIS wiring it should be straight forward with the ECM to controller connections.

The ISIS works just fine with LS swaps. One of my shop customers uses ISIS on everything he does, and he swears by it. We even put some of the connectors for the ISIS on the harnesses we built for him.

Bill

[Schwartz Performance]

We hadn't done the LS and ISIS but have done it with other EFI systems.. No problem like Bill said though. Takes a little extra thought to integrate the ISIS in, but if you like wiring it's pretty fun. Lots of capabilities, including things you don't need like opening the door and having your radio turn on... Or hit the brakes and have your horn beep for 1 second. Yup, anything can be programmed like that , lol.

-Dale

[Trevor @ Texas Speed]

The LS3 platform is incredibly popular, a close second the the 427 and 454 LSx turn-key engines that we sell. Pairing it up with a T56 in your El Camino will be an awesome setup! As mentioned, there are quite a few options. The GMPP crate engines are pretty popular, as are the harness and ECM kits. The one downside I will warn you about with the GMPP controllers is the time you'll spend cleaning up the harness. They build all of them with lots of extra length, so you can spend a week cleaning the harness up and making it look pretty. Ask me how I know! My '69 Camaro coupe has one. It was the first and last GMPP harness I used. We supply custom-built Speartech harnesses with all of our TSP turn-key engines. We have the harness built specific for your application, so if you did decide to run an electronically-controlled automatic we would have the harness built to control it. Since you're going the route of a T56, no need for you! All of our turn-key engines are built using a factory mass air flow sensor, MAP sensor, etc. We believe in allowing the engine to control itself and drive like it would in a late-model Corvette! We do have quite a few options on the front drive systems, too. The most popular ones we sell are the GMPP kits and Billet Specialties. The Billet Specialties kits are offered in polished and black anodized, so you can complete the look under the hood whichever way you choose! You can see our selection of LS3 turn-key engines in the link below:

http://www.texas-speed.com/c-2211-ls3-turn-key-engine-packages.aspx

Both the 376 CID 540 HP and 565 HP engines are targeted more torwards the customers looking at a GMPP crate engine. These two engines will use a factory GM crankshaft, connecting rods, and pistons, as well as stock, unported LS3 cylinder heads. Both engines will have a custom TSP camshaft with the lower HP package providing you with a smooth idle. The higher HP package will have a lopey idle for the customers wanting a little more sound and power out of their setup. These two packages will include the GMPP controller kit. Again, we tailored these two packages towards customers that would normally be purchasing the GMPP crate engines. However, our engines are hand-built in-house and are not generic crate builds. You can read more on our engine machining facility in the link below:

http://www.texas-speed.com/t-Enginebuildinfo.aspx

With the exception of the two engines mentioned above, all of our turn-key engines will use forged internals. The only exception would be any of the stock stroke applications that use a new GM crank. None of our engines are rebuild or reman parts! All of the parts, including the block, are new GM items. Every setup includes the custom Speartech harness, as well as a tuned ECM.

Feel free to give us a call if you have any questions or concerns. Any of our salesmen will be glad to discuss all of your options with you!

Thanks!

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

[mikidymac]

I am/was in the exact same boat as you and it has been a challenge to say the least to keep up with all of this LS stuff and what works and what doesn't. Lots of comparability issues. I have had my Chevelle since before I was born when my dad bought it new.

I was going to build a 383 then refresh a used 6.0 then decided for $1,500 more I could buy a GM crate LS3 so that is what I did. I figured the car only had 175 HP new and it would never be raced so I saved some money and went with the 430HP and with headers and a good exhaust should be close to 450 HP so I think that will be plenty. You will need to match headres with engine mounts aso for maximum ground clearance I went with the BRP mounts and their mid-length headers. I also hear the dirty Dingo adjustable mounts are good but might not clear all headers because they can hit the larger factory mounts. For accessories the cheapest way to go ant fit on the chevelle/el camino's is the GM Corvette accessory kit without A/C for $550 and it will work with the balancer and waterpump that comes on the LS3 crate. To add A/C buy the holley high mount bracket and adapter for $150 and $22 then a $200 Sanden 508 compressor that will work with any A/C system including Vintage Air, Stock and others. The cast aluminum brackets are the most rigid way to go so just have them powder coated in a color you like.

For a controller I used the GM one to match the engine. For oil pans on the chevelle the MAST motorsports, Holley 302-1 and 302-2 should work just fine and are about $350-$399 each. Don't waste your time with any of the GM made ones. For my 73' Holley said to use the 302-1 but I have not tried it yet.

For radiators the easiest and most cost effective is the R&D Fabrication one from here on the forum and he will give you a discount if you are a member.

[bmbrzmn101]

Thanks Trevor and mikidymac.

So much to sort thru. Glad I have the time to build it on paper before it goes in. Still comparing options

Chris

[BP Automotive]

Thanks Trevor and mikidymac.

So much to sort thru. Glad I have the time to build it on paper before it goes in. Still comparing options

Chris

There are so MANY options out there for an LS Swap. Especially when it comes to a harness. It is a very common thing to see posts about the GMPP Controller setup being pretty bulky and needing to be trimmed and worked on. Then there are a LOT of companies and individuals that build harnesses that are of very poor quality. In the link below is our Commitment to Excellence page detailing a harness that was sent in by a member of LS1 tech. The harness was sent because it did not work and he could not get the manufacturer of the harness to fix or replace it. The page goes into detail about what it takes to make a Quality harness. Now dont take this as me saying that any of the manufacturers mentioned in this thread make a poor harness. GMPP and Speartech both make a quality harness. I have bookoos of respect for John and he manufactures a very nice harness.

http://www.bp-automotive.com/Commitment_to_Excellence.html

We also offer complete Controller setups for the LS3 Crate Engines that you are looking at. We do offer custom tuning just in case you have decided on a more custom setup. We are a sponsor here, LS1tech and some other forum sites, and have sold many of these kits.

For your application all of this would be included

E38 ECM
Custom Engine Harness
LS3 MAF Assembly
O2 Sensors
O2 Bungs
Accelerator Pedal

The awesome thing about purchasing a harness from us is not only the attention to detail you will see in the link above, but we also offer options. Our fuseblock assembly can be made to fit many different needs. We can provide the bare essentials with just ignition power and fuel pump with the needed fusing, we can add dual single speed electric fan relays, dual TWO speed fan relays, and even an A/C relay with needed wiring if you want!

Whats even better is our fuseblock assembly is detachable, which makes routing the harness a breeze!

For your application the pricing would depend on what harness options you chose, but for an entire package the pricing starts at $1200. You can customize the package if you would like also!

[bmbrzmn101]

Trevor you have given me a lot to look into, and thanks again. After some reading I will be back with some questions. But for now it is time to sleep between night shifts.

Chris

[bmbrzmn101]

BP, thanks ffor the link and info. This is what I was hoping for on helping me make decisions.

Again I appreciate it all , Chris

[Bonehead]

I can tell you the holley 302-1 pan DOES NOT FIT the 64-67s. The tie rods smack the sides of that pan big time. You really have to raise the engine up quite a bit to clear it. They updated that pan and came out with a 302-2, but I have not heard (or seen any pictures of) someone who has successfully used this pan on the early a-bodys. The GM "muscle car pan" doesn't fit either. Same clearance issues as the 302-1. I finally struck gold with the Canton 15-274 pan. It cleared everything. Tie rods, cross member no problems. Used small block frame mounts, Energy Suspension engine mounts and Dirty Dingo sliders. Fits brilliantly. It also clears a stroked LS, which I have.

107493

107494

107495

[bmbrzmn101]

Thanks Bonehead for that and the pix. I was looking into that same Holley pan. The dirty dingos I have read good and bad. Only consistent con to them seem to be around the header clearances. We shall see.

Thanks, Chris

[Bonehead]

I have zero experience with headers on an LS. All my stuff is turbocharged and I use the factory manifolds! There have been quite a few Chevelle specific discussions at Team Chevelle in the LSX Engine forum. I know there are a few guys working with the DD sliders and headers right now. Though I think its been troublesome for them.

[mikidymac]

I am not sure about the iron block LS's but I have been told from many different sources and a good friend that is actually an engine builder for a living that at least on the aluminum LS's the oil pan is a structural member and to never use the stamped steel pans on them. I am no expert on the issue but I would look into it before you buy one. I know for limited clearance on the early chevelles the MAST Motorsports pan gets good reviews.