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Damn True
10-09-2005, 07:19 PM
Saw these guys advertisement in this months Hot Rod www.massfloefi.com (http://www.massfloefi.com/) . They make some pretty bold claims. Such as:




THE WORLDS ONLY TRUE PLUG AND PLAY FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM!

NO TUNING, NO PROGRAMMING, NO HASSLES!


Mass Air EFI does not need tuning, or programming, or dyno time... IT JUST WORKS!

We routinely hear of MPG figures in the area of 21 to 25 MPG on engines making well over 500 horsepower!

Mass-Flo works great with any camshaft.

If you make future improvements, chances are you will not need to make a single (http://get-access.com/?go=single) change to our system. If you plan to make large gains in horse power, and you need to upgrade your injectors, just send the air meter back, and we will re-calibrate it. That's it! You will never need to program our system!



I know very little about EFI systems, but this kinda sounds like one of those too good to be true things. Can it be this easy?

Apparently they have an LSx system and are working on a system for other GM platforms. http://www.mass-floefi.com/MF_chevy.html

Have a look and let me know if this sounds kosher or not.

JLM
10-10-2005, 04:52 AM
I've seen these guys as well. The state they can make a Mass air style EFI kit for any engine so long as it has a single plain manifold available to use.

The theory is sound because the system isn't going on pollution and otherwise computer controlled vehicles. The Mass air sensor reads the volume of incoming air and adjust fuel based on this. That is however in theory. practical application may be different. I know that I'm going to look a little more at these guys though.

camcojb
10-10-2005, 06:59 AM
It's the "no tuning" part that makes me leery. I've tuned mass air systems before, and you still have to tune the maf transfer to make the wanted a/f match the airflow the maf reads. Any EFI system that says it tunes itself makes me go :eek:

Jody

Damn True
10-10-2005, 07:36 AM
..and what of the ignition curve? I mean in theroy, you could I suppose, have a piece of software sophisticated enough to read parameters and make appropriate adjustments but if such a thing existed you'd think the big-3 or the euros would already be using it.

bigblockcapri
10-10-2005, 04:48 PM
it looks like the timing is not controlled
by a computer

Blown353
10-10-2005, 05:13 PM
This system is basically a Ford EEC-IV computer, a GM MAF sensor that fits on top the throttle body, and a translator box to drive and translate the GM MAF signals to be compatible with the Ford computer (I believe the GM MAF gives a frequency output and the EEC-IV needs a voltage input, so the tranlator box fixes that; I may be backwards on whihc component needs the frequency/voltage but that's why the translator box is there.)

The EEC-IV still uses a MAP sensor, but uses it strictly as a barometric pressure sensor.

A MAF system is somewhat self-adapting and inherently more accurate which is why OEM's prefer them (more accurate = better emissions control), but since the EEC-IV was an 83-93 part (89-93 were the MAF years if I remember) they're OBD-I and therefore narrowband O2 only. Being narrowband, the O2 sensor inputs are only valid around 14.7:1 and therefore the O2 only tweaks the mixture during low load / cruise portions-- not WOT areas since that's outside the realm of the sensor.

It will still need tweaking based on your injector size and the MAF transfer function will often need tweaking too depending on the application; you need to program what A/F ratios you want at a given gram/second airflow measurement (obviously, richer as the volume of air and therefore engine load increases.) That's why they make programmers for the EEC-IV's. The EEC-IV also has timing control, so you'll need to program that for your application-- unless they have the system setup to run without the timing control (i.e. use standard mechanical/vacuum advance only); that would seem pretty silly to me, having the ECU control the timing is definately preferred!

Offering a retrofit kit to use an OEM computer is definately a good move; most OEM computers are far more advanced than aftermarket EFI computers. However, where the aftermarket systems excel is in ease of programming and support and the fact they were designed from the ground up to be a universal system, whereas the OEM computers were designed for one specific application and typically don't have "Friendly" software out to tune them and adapt them to other applications. In fact, OEM's usually go to great lengths to make it rather difficult to "hack" their ECU's.

Troy

Damn True
10-11-2005, 09:06 AM
I formed your post into a series of questions and sent it to them via email. I'll let ya'all know what they say.....well, that was fast. Their answers in bold:

Your questions could more accurately be addressed over the phone, so I'll keep this short, and if you want clarification, please call.

I am under the understanding that your system, by virtue of being a MAF system is somewhat self-adapting and inherently more accurate which is why OEM's prefer them (more accurate = better emissions control), but since the EEC-IV was an 83-93 part (89-93 were the MAF years if I remember) they're OBD-I and therefore narrowband O2 only. Being narrowband, the O2 sensor inputs are only valid around 14.7:1 and therefore the O2 only tweaks the mixture during low load / cruise portions-- not WOT areas since that's outside the realm of the sensor.

How does your system address this?

--- Actually, if you truly understood how this all works, you'd realize that you have already answered your own question. It simply does not reference the O2 sensors under heavy load. The O2 sensors are only there to confirm that the computer is getting the results its looking for, and only at cruise and light throttle. Under load, it goes to an open loop table and simply runs on signals from the mass air meter, TPS, and distributor (engine speed). The O2 sensors are only being used at cruise, which is the only time we are looking for an A/F ratio of 14.7/1. Truth is, we really don't need the O2 sensors at all, but they help to fine tune at cruise. They are there for emissions purposes only. Wide band O2 sensors are for tuning. Once you have your system dialed in, you don't need them for anything other than just verifying that your speed density system is still working properly. Since our mass air system is all set, there is no need for a wideband.

Wont your system still need tweaking based on injector size and wont the MAF transfer function often need tweaking too depending on the application?

--- In certain cases, yes it will. 99% of customers will be all set with the stock tune. We go over every application before the system is sold. If they need something different, we can burn and install a chip before the system is sent out. The customer NEVER needs to tune our system.
Would one not need to program what A/F ratios you want at a given gram/second airflow measurement (obviously, richer as the volume of air and therefore engine load increases.)?

Isn't that the entire justification for programmers for the EEC-IV's?

--- You've spoken to too many chip tuners.

That said, the EEC-IV also has timing control, so wouldn't I need to program that for my application-- unless you have the system setup to runwithout the timing control (i.e. use standard mechanical/vacuum advance only); that would seem disadvantageous to me, having the ECU control the timing is definitely preferred is it not?

---- Base timing is set by adjusting the distributor. The computer controls the advance. The stock curve works well in all but very few applications. Again, the tune can be adjusted here before the system is shipped in those cases.

One other thing. If you're one of those people who just has to get in there and fiddle around, any piggy back system or chip that works on the stock Mustang stuff will work here. It has been our experience that these things are a waste of time and money, and yield little if any benefit AS FAR AS OUR SYSTEM IS CONCERNED. We realize that chip tuning definitely has it's place on just about everything else out there.



Thanks,
Chris Richards
Mass-Flo EFI, Inc.
(508) 867-6733

bnickel
10-11-2005, 09:34 AM
i've had some questions about that system as well, specifically i would like to use a TBI style system instead of MPI system so i can hide it under the stock aircleaner. i have emailed these guys and they said it wasn't possible but i know ford made an EEC-IV TBI system at one point so i don't really understand why they would say that.

anyway i have come up with a different way attacking that problem i think. my idea would be to use a 4bbl throttle body and time the firing of the injectors so that they would use 4 injectors instead of 8 and fire each injector twice.the only problem i have is what would be the effect of the injectors doing double duty? would the duty cycle of the injectors stand up to that kind of use? anyone have any ideas on this? i think it's possible to make it work just not real sure how. if i could make this work it would be about the ideal setup for me.

camcojb
10-11-2005, 11:44 AM
I've been tuning a Ford Maf system on my Lightning for almost 2 years. What they're going to give you is a custom tune in the computer according to what they think you'll need according to your mods, injector size, etc.

Will it run? Absolutely unless they really screw up.

Will it be tuned the best it can be? Absolutely NOT! There is no way any tuner can get the perfect tune on a car without having the car in front of them, datalogging, driving, dyno time, etc. Custom tunes like he offers work fine, as many people should not be doing their own tuning. But to say it'll be perfect 99% of the time is simply false. Two identical vehicles with identical mods will not necessarily run the same! If this system comes with the software and hardware for you to be able to tune it completely then that's not a bad way to go. Otherwise I'd pass.

Jody

JLM
10-12-2005, 05:08 AM
If this system truly is simply an EEC-IV computer controlling a few componants than I would think this might actually be the way to go. Any autologic, diablo or superchip retailer with a dyno can custom tune this thing not to mention if you are running basic setups a single off the shelf chip from any of these manufacturers would likely yeild very good results as far as economy, drivability and overall power is concerned.

TPI Monte SS
10-12-2005, 05:30 AM
What they're going to give you is a custom tune in the computer according to what they think you'll need according to your mods, injector size, etc.

Will it run? Absolutely unless they really screw up.

Will it be tuned the best it can be? Absolutely NOT! There is no way any tuner can get the perfect tune on a car without having the car in front of them, datalogging, driving, dyno time, etc.
Jody

Agreed! All this company is doing is saving the end user the "hassle" of tuning. Bah. Like Jody says, it'll run, it'll be close, but the only way to really get a tune right is with driving time, datalogging, and WOT runs.

My TPI'd Monte SS ran OK on a stock chip. It passed emissions (when it needed to go) and got great highway fuel mileage (almost 22 mpg). But, dyno time showed the stock chip to be very lean (ranging from 15:1 to a high of 13.4:1). Obviously, that's killing some power! So, I had a friend come by and we did some datalogging (normal cruising and WOT blasts) for about an hour. He spent a lot of time fixing the MAF tables and making a few other minor adjustments. I have yet to dyno my car since the new chip was burned, but it definitely runs better and stronger than ever. There is no substitute for seat time when improving your tune.

JLM
10-13-2005, 09:40 AM
I think the point here though is that the system truly is a plug and play. They can get the tune pretty close. Close enough to the point that you'll have good driveability with decent economy and performance.

If however you want to extract 110% from the system you will need to do some custom tuning. However that's not really a problem because all of the equipment needed to do that is readily available through the late model mustang market.

Also a good tune can make a very good mail order tune. Up until this spring I owned a 2003 Cobra. It had the normal cold air intake, mid-pipe, catback and a 2.8 blower pulley. The tune I had on teh car was a Superchip Custom Tune mail ordered from Modular Depot. When I put the car on the dyno to verify the A/F curves etc I found a near flawless tune. The car made 3 back to back dyno runs with no cool down time and did not drop any more than .4hp and lost .8tq on the last run. The AF was a constant flat line with no spikes at 11.8:1. Tip in was quick and leveled immediately. The car was never tuned on a dyno, datalogged etc. and it's state of tune was better than teh stock calibration. I got about 8mpg more at 460rwhp than I did bone stock with 390 crank hp. So mail order tunes can be nearly spot on.

Fuelie Fan
10-13-2005, 11:59 AM
I won't entirely disagree, BUT...

#1) Most "tuners" simply reach into their bag of calibrations, tweak the base fuel or MAF transfer a little, and send the user on their way minus $1000.

#2) That's all they really have to do. After you've done 15 or so small block chevys with MPI, L98 heads, a 268 cam, and edelbrock performer rpm intake, it becomes painfully obvious that acceleration enrichment, cold warmup, power enrichment, spark timing, etc need little if ANY adjustment. Furthermore, to do so would be for diminishing returns. Could you potentially squeeze out 5 more hp? sure, but it'll cost you in dyno time.

Jody is correct to be custom tuning his customers' vehicles, but they all sound pretty custom/unique/radical. I expect that most of MASS-FLO's customers are building very similar, much more mild engines. I know those ecus are not smart enough to adapt to ANY combination, but i think it could potentially handle the most common combinations to a very satisfactory level.

Side note: I don't see the correlation between OBD I and narrowband. The vast majority of OBD II systems also use narrowband exclusively. Many are now using narrowband even during wide open throttle. Only a few vehicles are using widebands in production.

Fuelie Fan
10-13-2005, 12:02 PM
JLM beat me to it.

On the other hand, my Howell mail-order calibration that i bought 5 years ago was horrible. So, there is a little bit of an unknown there, but I think all the companies are much better now than they were 5 years ago.

EFI69Cam
10-14-2005, 01:45 PM
Why do all the fast Mustangs run aftermarket ECUs?

Also the guy seems like a jerk
"--- Actually, if you truly understood how this all works, you'd realize that you have already answered your own question. It simply does not reference the O2 sensors under heavy load. The O2 sensors are only there to confirm that the computer is getting the results its looking for, and only at cruise and light throttle. Under load, it goes to an open loop table and simply runs on signals from the mass air meter, TPS, and distributor (engine speed). The O2 sensors are only being used at cruise, which is the only time we are looking for an A/F ratio of 14.7/1. Truth is, we really don't need the O2 sensors at all, but they help to fine tune at cruise. They are there for emissions purposes only. Wide band O2 sensors are for tuning. Once you have your system dialed in, you don't need them for anything other than just verifying that your speed density system is still working properly. Since our mass air system is all set, there is no need for a wideband."

A monkey can understand how EFI works, but people who know how to properly tune carburetors are rare, and good EFI tuners are rarer still.

There are tuners out there who have tuned a bunch of engines with similar combinations and can get you a chip for the GM TPI 90-92 f-car ECM (vastly superior to the EEC-IV) that will run an EFI engine at 95% of a perfect tune. In fact if you dig around on the internet, you can find .bins that folks generously share. The MEFI Ecms are basically the TPI ecms with flash calibration.

dhardison
10-14-2005, 04:12 PM
Also the guy seems like a jerk

That's the first impression I got after reading his reply as well. I thought the questions were well thought out and presented in a respectible manner, so IMHO there was no need for him to be so demeaning in his reply.

I sent him an email asking some questions of my own, and here was his reply to me.

"Yup. Call for details"

"Yup?" Now there's a professional outfit for ya........................

Dan

Damn True
10-21-2005, 11:35 AM
Yeah, the guy did put off a wierd vibe didn't he?

ProStreet R/T
10-21-2005, 01:17 PM
Wow you can add that thing to the list of parts that will never be anywhere near my vehicle. What are they asking for it $$$$ wise?

IMO if someone is dedicated enought to jump on a standalone pcm setup then learning to tune it shouldn't be a big deal. They have a fairly steep learning curve and once you get the hang of it is really not that bad.

As for the open/closed loop operation that can be good and bad. I have mine setup to read the wideband and make O2 corrections under light load up to 2600rpm. This is the common cruising rpm on the fwy and gives me decent fuel mileage. Can get over 20mpg with 3.92 gears and 29.3" tire in my heavy truck. Anything over that rpm the fuel curve is controlled by a table which you have to manually alter to add or subtract fuel. It takes some time with the datalogger to get everything dialed but once it is your good to go. It's also much safer this way, if by chance something happens and it burns some oil or one injector sticks open it won't lean the motor out and blow it up.

Mine is setup sequential with a 1bar map, 42# low-imp injectors, 1200cfm t/b.

fiream400
11-21-2006, 11:17 AM
I talked with the guy and got a weird vibe from him to.
This is an old thread, but I found out some info:secret: for people who might run this system. What they say about no tuning is very true, (within + or - 100 hp from your current application). They will burn a chip and send the correct injectors for you. If you have 300 hp, you could only go to 400 hp befor you would have to have a new chip and maybe injectors. I don't know how much it costs for a chip, but it can't be much. They make it sound like it can adjust from a 180 hp 350 to a 500 hp 383, that's not going to happen. If they would advertise this fact, I think a lot more people would buy their system