A few GM A-body questions

[wrayturbo]

Hello fellas,
I'm new to the classic car modification scene as I've only raced and modified my little awd 4 cylinder for 10 years now. I had a few questions about my Dad's 65 GTO that I recently inherited.
My goals for this car are simple. I want the drive ability, handling, and reliability of say a modern Honda Accord nothing crazy. It won't see the track only some long road trips with my family. Here is what I've been thinking about and I would like to hear what your opinions are.
-lm4 motor swap with oem lsx heads and cam
-modern trans not sure if a t56 would be necessary or not?
-Suspension that would achieve negative roll and stiffen it up but I don't want another track car (whats the simplest route here?)
-I have a power brake set up (still on the garage shelf) and OEM front discs already but will I need more for highway safety?
Thanks for you time,
-Dave
Currently I have my wheels and a temporary drop with just spindles and oem air shock in the rear, plus 50 year old sagging suspension!

[jaybee]

Great car. Some others will respond soon with specifics, but you have a great start by describing specifically what you want to do with the car. For street fun and confident handling this will be easier than you imagine. Others will be along shortly with specifics but here's where you'll want to go;
--Shocks are no place to skimp. Not to say you need the most expensive shock on the shelf to do what you want but the parts store shocks aren't going to get you there.
--Sway bars front and rear that compliment each other.
--Performance tires...again, these are all over the spectrum from tires that are very competent in anything short of snow to street legal track tires which will give you white knuckles if it spits a little rain.
--What are the specifics of your brake kit?
--A good wheel alignment suited to more to modern radials than red stripe F70s.
--Once you have that you'll notice the chassis is pretty flexy, and there are fixes for that, too.

Btw, I applaud your approach. Old performance cars that have to drive 5-10mph below the speed limit just because they can't pull off an avoidance maneuver in modern traffic are no fun. Insurance on muscle cars got expensive back in the day for a reason, and it wasn't really because they were so fast. It's because they were fast in a straight line and in deep trouble if they had to stop or corner at that same level. Want proof? Cars that are as fast as those muscle cars on their factory Polyglas tires in a straight line are easy to find now, and don't carry an insurance premium.

[andrewb70]

First off, welcome. Second, that is my favorite year GTO. Third, you will have about as many opinions on this as we have members, but the bottom line is that you are on the right track. Any flavor LSx engine will be very reliable and fun to drive. There are numerous suspension options and we have many great vendors that have excellent products. Also, don't forget the importance of proper driveline angles. When these cars get lowered ugly things happen, and doing a LSx swap makes the problem worse. There are no easy or inexpensive solutions for this.

Andrew

[Schwartz Performance]

Hi Dave,

There are a lot of options out there for your suspension. We offer a complete chassis system that stiffens the car, gives it modern suspension parts and geometry, big brakes, and shaves weight.. All in one package. Search Schwartz 65 Tempest on google and YouTube and see what ours does.. It doesn't have anything special or prototype on it, just our chassis with a little aggressive alignment.

Let me know of you have any questions... Also visit www.gmachinechassis.com

[wrayturbo]

That tempest is amazing!
Budget dictates many choices on this build for sure and unfortunately I'd like to go all out but now is not the time for many reasons. I'm going for a GTO that drives like a Honda Accord and nothing more.
My current brakes are GM oem from a 69 with 11 front discs and a brake booster kit. This may need upgraded as well for just safety reasons.
My thoughts,
-QA-1 offers affordable coil over kits. If i select a lower spring rate could i get modern handling and comfort? or is a spring and strut the only way to go here?
- Are tubular control arms my only choice for negative roll and if so are they all negative roll for example the matching QA-1 pieces for an A body?
- I'd was also looking at the hotchkis sways to tie it together.
- I'm also looking at 3 point seat belt mounting if anyone has any tips. I really would like to avoid a roof mounting since I lack a B pillar and keep imagining a belt slapping in the wind and annoying the crap out of me.
- I also was looking at doing front and rear poly bushings as that helped my Mitsubishi tremendously, although does sacrifice a little comfort.
-Another thought is a bell housing adapter for the 4 speed istead of a t56. Thoughts on that idea?
I was unaware of drive line angle issues with lowering and ls swaps. Could someone explain more please?

[andrewb70]

....
-Another thought is a bell housing adapter for the 4 speed istead of a t56. Thoughts on that idea?
I was unaware of drive line angle issues with lowering and ls swaps. Could someone explain more please?

Not sure what you are asking about the bellhousing adapter?

When a-bodies are lowered, the position of the pinion gear centerline rides higher up in the frame. This causes the front u-joint operating angle to increase. Som that that can be fixed by raising the back of the transmission, but eventually the floor will get in the way. The problem is made worse with LS swaps because generally the engines sit a little higher than the engines that were replaced.

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

you will get a lot of opinions here but here's mine....

How does the 389 or current engine run? Is it fast enough for you?

If I was going to go with a reasonable budget I would first get an HEI, some plug wires and a carb kit and get that Poncho running nice and forget about it until later. Do that last unless its complete junk and blowing smoke. People daily drove that engine family for years 40 years. Spend the money on a nice handling, reasonably priced chassis kit, the Jeep Grand Cherokee 12.7 junkyard PS box swap, some pro forged front end rebuild pieces and a C6 brake swap, and a nice 5 speed. Honestly I drive my mild 455 powered GTO all the time. {Iv'e got about $1K in the entire engine} I have 0 worry about taking it out of town.

-Keep the current engine for a while if it runs well
-LGT700 5 speed tranny falls right in to your tunnel, no cutting needed and is good for 700hp
-Jeep Grand cherokee steering box swap {$100 bucks, bolt in, 12.7 steering}
-C6 brake swap if they'll fit your wheels. Kore3 sells nice kits
-Take your pick on the suspension. You really cant go wrong with any of the vendors here it seems. Find whatever suits your budget. Call a lot of them and ask questions. Iv'e personally had great customer service from SC&C, Ridetech and UMI for my suspension stuff and Kore3 for my brakes, though i'm sure others will provide good service as well. Good luck. I just got done doing all of this stuff to my '67 GTO suspension/brakes which is the same as yours. I did mine in stages as I drove so feel free to ask questions or PM me if you want.

[BMR Sales]

Welcome - good looking Goat!

I have a few kits - probably our Stage 1 would work for you. Shocks, Springs & SwayBars.

T.C.

[wrayturbo]

Some good suggestions here. The 400 in the car was rebuilt by me a few years ago and is plenty fast enough. It always has something going bad and I hate trusting it for long trips. Either its a new oil leak or the carb acting up and I get disgusted with it. Maybe I shouldn't give up on it quite yet though. What was this lgt700 trans out of? This sounds like a great option and I'm interested to see if I could find one.

[andrewb70]

The LGT700 is a custom transmission.

http://bowlertransmissions.com/m/28/legend-5-speed-transmissions

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

Some good suggestions here. The 400 in the car was rebuilt by me a few years ago and is plenty fast enough. It always has something going bad and I hate trusting it for long trips. Either its a new oil leak or the carb acting up and I get disgusted with it. Maybe I shouldn't give up on it quite yet though. What was this lgt700 trans out of? This sounds like a great option and I'm interested to see if I could find one.

I'm sure it wouldn't take much to make that 400 purrrrr if you wanted it to. There might have been some common mistakes made when building it that could be easily corrected. There are also 1 piece pan gaskets and 1 piece rear main seals available for these engines now that seal them up well. What are the details on the 400? Cam specs? Carb? Intake?

I know one guy that went from a TKO600 to an LGT700 and he seems pretty happy about it. Another "budget" option is to find a used Richmond 5 or 6 speed. They also fall in the tunnel without cutting but are older designs and don't shift as nice as the modern tranny's. Iv'e got an older Richmond 1:1 streeet 5 speed. Only mod necessary was to cut and drop the mounting pad on the tranny crossmember 1/2" and move the hole in the removable floor hump back 4". This would be a good option if you have a numerically low gear in the car like a 2.73, 3.08, or 3.23 since that's what they are designed to run with.

[Nothingface5384]

My opinion just keep current driveline for a bit
Get spc lowering springs
Fox style shocks via ridetech q series or hotchkis hps 1.5
Upper lower tubular arms either spc, ridetech, or umi fully adjustable.

Rear umi rotojoint arms or DSE rear arms
Lee box with matching pump
Hotchkis steering rebuild

[Gratefuldiver]

You can run the Pontiac engine and trans with it being just as reliable as a Chevy engine. Then save all that money for suspension, brake, tire upgrades.

[jaybee]

Plus you'll get props from a lot of people just for running the Pontiac.

[sodak65]

Hey great car i'm a 65 A body guy too! Could you tell me the specs on your wheel/tire combo? what size wheels and whats the backspace front and rear, what size tires?

[Reckn8]

What a awesome looking car to start with! Going the LS route will be a great way to go. Andrew is a wealth of information. He's been there done that and you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[wrayturbo]

So I'm almost convinced with some love and tuning this motor will be fine. It is only 3 years old on the rebuild. Specs are stock rods with forged speedpro pistons, #16 post heads freshly rebuilt, flat tappet cam Duration 284/284, Lift .480/.480, solid roller rockers, HEI distributor, and a 600cfm holly. Also munci 4-speed with 383 posi rear end. rear end needs changed for sure to be able to cruise at highway speeds.
How are the QA-1 A arms?

[gmorris]

I'd take a hard look at a full ridetech package. I've been through 2 other suspension setups on my chevelle and the ridetech is by far the best. I came from a full SC&C stage 2+ package and I like the adjustability and comfort/handling combo with the ridetech. I went air but for simplicity you could do the coilover setup too.

[Nicks67GTO]

So I'm almost convinced with some love and tuning this motor will be fine. It is only 3 years old on the rebuild. Specs are stock rods with forged speedpro pistons, #16 post heads freshly rebuilt, flat tappet cam Duration 284/284, Lift .480/.480, solid roller rockers, HEI distributor, and a 600cfm holly. Also munci 4-speed with 383 posi rear end. rear end needs changed for sure to be able to cruise at highway speeds.
How are the QA-1 A arms?

If the engine is fresh and has no mechanical issues I would just work on the tune. Its a heck of a lot cheaper than LS'ing it for now leaving funds available for everything else. Head over to performanceyears.com and get on the forum to make that happen. Its by far the best Pontiac resource available. Post up engine questions in the street section. Just out of curiosity what kid of issues are you having with making it run right? I might be able to help out on some of the typical stuff.

Since it doesn't sound like you're familiar with older flat tappet engines, make sure when you're changing oil, that you're using oil with {Zinc} ZDDP additive or at least adding it to the oil change. Its a flat tappet cam thing. New oils don't have ZDDP in them. This isnt an issue with roller cam engines but it can cause nasty flat tappet cam wear problems. It's not hard to find a good oil though. Just be aware of that.

I'm guessing that its a 3.73 gear? If that's the case your rear end gearing is probably perfect for a 400 with a bigger cam like that 284/230/.480 cam. I had one years ago in a 400 and it had a rough idle and needed some gear but it hauled the mail. If you order up an overdrive tranny like a LGT700 that has a .64 OD it will make for a nice highway cruising experience. What rear axle does it have under it? Chevy 12 bolt? BOP 10 bolt??

[mikidymac]

They are expensive but some of the new carb based EFI systems will cure your carb tuning issues. The FAST EFI systems seem to get good results.

[1965gp]

If it is a real GTO I would definitely try to keep a Pontiac V8 in it if only for resale (of course I am biased)!

I would follow what others have said about the suspension, add an aftermarket throttle body set up and vintage air. Make for a great cruiser- especially with the overdrive Trans.

[nekkidhillbilly]

how cheap do you want to build it. do you want it a stick or auto? if you want to bare bones it but make it handle good ....ebay control arms, jeep steering box, ws6 front sway bar, and a used rear aftermarket bar. you just spent less than a grand. need some good shocks and springs to add to that though. keep that poncho engine throw a overdrive behind it you could find a nice used t5 or something similar that wouldnt cost a fortune and be fine for a driver.

[nekkidhillbilly]

also if you want a cheap tbi you can take a stock chevy tbi with alot tuning and some fab make it work and run that bbp. it might not be as fast as it is with the carb but it would be cheap. personally the new 4bb units you can buy are so much better units and make just as good of power as a the carb would. you can also build you own system using a megasquirt but its a challenge and idk if you would save that much money.

[MonzaRacer]

Heck, ridetech.com.
Bolt it on and drive. As for Pontiacs, I love Poncho power. A solid 350 or 400 Pontiac add on a single 4bbl throttle body, use Megasquirt to run it. Use simple HEI with 5 or 7 pin module.
Add in simple built 200/4/r.
Use Kore3 or Wilwood brakes.
If its stock ac car do a conversion to a C.C.O.T. system. Simplest thing for ac and with a automatic adjusting orifice tube it should blow ice cubes.
If you want a stick slap in a t56.
Or simply swap in a SBC/xxx trans. Similar suspension ideas.
Heck an rq or HQ coil overs or better ride use shockwaves.
You don't need an airpod, switches, a tank and compressor. The work fine. My truck has been on air since 04 with paddle switches.