LS Swap Vs. Procharged SBC

[DannyBoy]

Alright all, I know this has been done before... Many times... But I'm curious as to what you all think I should do in my particular situation.

I've been pricing out an LS3/T56 swap and, as we all know, it ain't cheap! All said and done, I'm around $21-22k with a new 480 horse LS3 and T56 Magnum, and that's with a lot of shopping around (install labor included).

The other option I've been considering is throwing an intercooled P1SC on my existing 383, at around 6psi, and putting a TKO 600 behind it. Power output would be roughly the same as the LS swap and the cost would be closer to $12-13k. Hence, the temptation to go this route, even though I love the idea of running an LS in my car.

My Camaro is not a daily driver, by any means, nor will it ever be. However, for the few months a year I'll drive it (maybe 3-4k miles) I do want to be able to start it up, beat on it a bit at the track (auto-x and drag strip), as well as drive it wherever the hell I want without issues. I also want it to have that "Wow" factor when I pop the hood at shows, which I believe either would provide.

Bottom line, if money were absolutely no issue, I'd go the LS route... However, that's not the case. While I live fairly comfortably, by no means am I rich. However, as a respected and well-to-do friend of mine once said to me, and it resonated, "you only live once and should do what makes you happy - you can always make more money." Still, I find myself going back and forth with this decision... First world problems, right?!

Anyways... Help! What do you think I should do? I can't make up my mind; help me choose a path so I can move forward with one or the other. :hammer:

[andrewb70]

Get a ride in a LS3 car and you won't be asking these questions.

Andrew

[pro67coupe]

if you can make the same power for half the price thats a nobrainer for me. even though there is more complexity with the procharged set up

[DannyBoy]

Get a ride in a LS3 car and you won't be asking these questions.

Andrew

That good, huh?

[Josue]

Subbing to follow the suggestions!

This sounds like word for word, the exact same struggle that runs through my head....minus the expensive LS3/T56 combo. lol I'd be looking more towards used LS's and a TKO500 to keep it cheap, or procharging a carb'ed Pontiac motor. Ideally I'd like EFI on it too, but for all that, the LS would be the clear winner.

[Mkelcy]

LS3/T56 in a '68 Camaro in front of a 4.11 rear end. Stupid fast (no time slips), 440 RWHP on a Mustang dyno, gets 23 to 24 MPG in freeway type driving, turn the key it starts right up every time.

How long are you going to have your car?

[DannyBoy]

LS3/T56 in a '68 Camaro in front of a 4.11 rear end. Stupid fast (no time slips), 440 RWHP on a Mustang dyno, gets 23 to 24 MPG in freeway type driving, turn the key it starts right up every time.

How long are you going to have your car?

Damn, that sounds exactly like what I'm shooting for... Don't care much about the gas mileage, but it's definitely nice that it does that well! From where did you source your engine? Did you get a used one or new GM crate?

I'll never get rid of this car.

[Y-TRY]

IMO- If you think this will be the very last version of your car you'll build then the 383 would be fine. But if you're like many if us, your car is probably in some sort if constant evolution.

That being said, if you have the chance to move to an LS platform then do it. It's like finally ditching your beloved flip-phone for a smart phone.

[DannyBoy]

It's like finally ditching your beloved flip-phone for a smart phone.

That's f'ing hilarious... And a great analogy. I don't think I'll ever be "done" with this car.

[Schwartz Performance]

Put a magnum behind the 383!

-Dale

[Bonehead]

There are soooo many examples of cheap LS swaps. A bone stock 6.0L will handle a significant amount of boost and still knock down great, efficient mileage with that 6 speed. In the long run, with the same amount of money spent in each engine, you'll make more power with the LS, be dependable, and you can drive it anywhere. I've been a BBC guy my entire life until I built my first LS. Now I'm potentially building my last. Once the wrecked 2014+ Silverados start piling up, I'll be building a new LT1.

I'm so glad I left that antiquated stuff behind.

[Mkelcy]

Damn, that sounds exactly like what I'm shooting for... Don't care much about the gas mileage, but it's definitely nice that it does that well! From where did you source your engine? Did you get a used one or new GM crate?

I'll never get rid of this car.

I got a GMPP LS376/480 and the factory harness from a guy who was going to build a high power sand rail until he priced the transaxle. The mileage allows me to take the Camaro on longer trips and not worry about the cost versus my DD.

[DannyBoy]

I got a GMPP LS376/480 and the factory harness from a guy who was going to build a high power sand rail until he priced the transaxle. The mileage allows me to take the Camaro on longer trips and not worry about the cost versus my DD.

I was hoping you'd say you had the exact same engine I'm considering buying... Really leaning heavily toward making the LS investment. Seems like an inevitable thing at some point, so I may as well not build a different engine now, then another later. I love the idea of the modern power, reliability and even fuel efficiency. Would love to see some photos of your car/engine bay if you have any you can post up.

PS - Great to see so many WA state folks on here!

[DannyBoy]

There are soooo many examples of cheap LS swaps. A bone stock 6.0L will handle a significant amount of boost and still knock down great, efficient mileage with that 6 speed. In the long run, with the same amount of money spent in each engine, you'll make more power with the LS, be dependable, and you can drive it anywhere. I've been a BBC guy my entire life until I built my first LS. Now I'm potentially building my last. Once the wrecked 2014+ Silverados start piling up, I'll be building a new LT1.

I'm so glad I left that antiquated stuff behind.

Great advice - Even though the LS is a bigger up front investment for less power than I could make with the ProCharger on the 383, it would provide one hell of a foundation for future mods to make more power (and reliable power, at that), which I will inevitably be doing at some point. If I went with the blown 383, that would really be the end of that road.

As I said in my previous post; loving seeing on the WA state folks on here. Where in Seattle are you from?

[DannyBoy]

Put a magnum behind the 383!

-Dale

Thought about that as an option, as well, but I'm really getting convinced to go the LS route. The expense makes me cringe but I'm sure the end result will burn a permanent smile in my face...

[Mkelcy]

I was hoping you'd say you had the exact same engine I'm considering buying... Really leaning heavily toward making the LS investment. Seems like an inevitable thing at some point, so I may as well not build a different engine now, then another later. I love the idea of the modern power, reliability and even fuel efficiency. Would love to see some photos of your car/engine bay if you have any you can post up.

PS - Great to see so many WA state folks on here!

Sure:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/slzw-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/0NP8Y4-1.jpg

[DannyBoy]

Sure:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/slzw-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/0NP8Y4-1.jpg

Beautiful! What accessory kit are you running? Also, what radiator/fan combo did you go with?

[Mkelcy]

Beautiful! What accessory kit are you running? Also, what radiator/fan combo did you go with?

I'm running the GMPP accessory drive (w/o AC) and the Holley bracket for the AC compressor. I had a Kwik bracket for the AC compressor, but ended up eating one of the ribs on the serpentine belt and didn't feel like shimming it out.

The radiator is a PRC radiator set up for the LS engine with their aluminum shroud and dual 13" fans. I had the car in a parade here for the county fair - about 2-3 miles at a walking pace on a 90 degree day. The coolant went up to 210 degrees (the designed operating temperature) and then stayed exactly there for the balance of the parade. I know because I was watching it like a hawk.

[Project92rs]

As someone who owns cars with each type of setup your are asking about, I would go with the LS swap for what you are wanting to use the car for. My F1A Procharger on a cog belt setup on the SBC (92 Camaro) is a blast to drive but the power curve is more like stairs than a curve. At less than wide open throttle the blower dumps boost to atmosphere but once you go WOT the power doubles almost instantly which can make traction interesting. I wouldn't even want to try to autox this one with the way power comes in and out. The car also gets horrifying gas mileage if you aren't gentle on the throttle. The LS swap in the 88 GTA is much more streetable and with the 418 ci LS3 we're building for it, it will make plenty of power to be competitive at the events we go to.

Bottom line, if you're thinking of doing a LS, skip the mods to the SBC and do the LS swap.

[64SS327]

Buy a wrecked car. You can pull the engine and tranny and sell the rest or use a lot of the other good parts.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=camaro&forcerrptr=true&_ssn=wreckedcarsforsale&hash=item2c8eb5bc90&item=191372835984&pt=US_Cars_Trucks&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcorvette&_nkw=corvette&_sacat=0

If you look around there are plenty of cars around just like this.

[Bonehead]

Great advice - Even though the LS is a bigger up front investment for less power than I could make with the ProCharger on the 383, it would provide one hell of a foundation for future mods to make more power (and reliable power, at that), which I will inevitably be doing at some point. If I went with the blown 383, that would really be the end of that road.

As I said in my previous post; loving seeing on the WA state folks on here. Where in Seattle are you from?

Not sure the up a front power is less with the LS. Dollar for dollar, I'd put an LS up against any small block. The only advantage the sbc has is the parts are cheap and everyone has built one. The LS platform can cost more, but the amount of things you have to do to build power is far less than the typical sbc power build. Look at some of the cheap junk Sinister builds over on Team Chevelle. He's the king of not spending money and making big power.

I moved to just outside of Puyallup in 2012. Still getting used to the super short summers. There's a bunch of car guys up here which I never imagined. Nice to meet another one! :)

[carguykeith]

I've been looking at going LS3 and a 6 speed for awhile now. The cheapest by a long shot is to get a complete pull out from a 2010+ Camaro off eBay and send the harness/ECU off to get reworked. Not sure if the TR6060 will fit in the trans tunnel though? If it will you could be close to the same price as the blown 383.

[DannyBoy]

I've been looking at going LS3 and a 6 speed for awhile now. The cheapest by a long shot is to get a complete pull out from a 2010+ Camaro off eBay and send the harness/ECU off to get reworked. Not sure if the TR6060 will fit in the trans tunnel though? If it will you could be close to the same price as the blown 383.

Looked at that as a possibility before, as well, but the used engine/trans combo was, at best, $2k less than buying new parts and there's no direct swap kits available for that trans that I've seen. Appreciate you sharing the idea though!

[OG_Racing]

104000
I'm a big big fan of roots style blowers.... BIG!
And what schwartz said... add in a magnum.
LS engines are insanely popular, they make excellent power, get decent MPG. If you're not building a Daily driver there is nothing wrong with a boosted small block.

[BMR Sales]

That being said, if you have the chance to move to an LS platform then do it. It's like finally ditching your beloved flip-phone for a smart phone.

Man, I really miss my Military Spec Flip Phone

[OG_Racing]

Man, I really miss my Military Spec Flip Phone

Right!! I went into the GA mountains this weekend none of my phones worked... it was a euphoric free feeling.. sorry back on topic.

[carguykeith]

Looked at that as a possibility before, as well, but the used engine/trans combo was, at best, $2k less than buying new parts and there's no direct swap kits available for that trans that I've seen. Appreciate you sharing the idea though!

I found the difference to be about twice that, here is a complete motor, trans, ECU & wire-harness for about the same as just an LS3 crate engine/ ECU without accessories:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-G8-GXP-6-2L-LS3-Engine-60k-Mile-6-Speed-Manual-Trans-Package-LS2-LS1/311121672813?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D26263%26meid%3D622d45a1604d48039309b5d34eb 4e126%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D10942%26rk%3D1%26rkt% 3D4%26sd%3D311121672813

or if the G8 doesn't work, here is one from a Camaro for just a little more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-13-CHEVY-CAMARO-6-2L-LS3-COMPLETE-LIFTOUT-69K-W-6SPEED-MANUAL-TRANSMISSION-/131254541523?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e8f615cd3&vxp=mtr

and another for still about the same as just a crate LS3, ECU and accessories:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-CAMARO-Engine-6-2L-LS3-PICK-OUT-WITH-TR6060-6-SPEED-2012-28K-/380985152478?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58b47c13de&vxp=mtr

So I see:
$8,500 + $500 for ECU/ harness work = $9k
vs.
$7k (motor) + $1k ECU/ Harness + $1,500 accessories + $500 Clutch + $3k (trans) = $13k

These are all with a 1 minute search on ebay, I'm sure with some more digging there are better deals out there. The ONLY issue I see is if the TR6060 is an absolute no-go compared to the T56 magnum in your trans tunnel, anybody know??? If the TR6060 is a no-go than yes buy new because the LS3 takeout without a trans is almost the same price as with one...

[Rod]

$7k (motor) + $1k ECU/ Harness + $1,500 accessories + $500 Clutch + $3k (trans) = $13k

These are all with a 1 minute search on ebay, I'm sure with some more digging there are better deals out there. The ONLY issue I see is if the TR6060 is an absolute no-go compared to the T56 magnum in your trans tunnel, anybody know??? If the TR6060 is a no-go than yes buy new because the LS3 takeout without a trans is almost the same price as with one...

THIS!!!!!!

OK I had a 383 in my camaro...loved the hell outta it!, she was pissed off and fast....blew it up, so I swapped to a budget LS swap (carbed 6.0 engine) and the car is more fun!! the power band and torque are in a completely different area on the LS feels like the same overall HP, I painted the motor more old school to theme with the car

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/2008lq4engine_zpsac6c2a1b-1.jpg (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/rprouty3/media/Camaro/2008-lq4-engine_zpsac6c2a1b.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/09/10311721_10203709227641644_2475257602605-1.jpg (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/rprouty3/media/Camaro/10311721_10203709227641644_2475257602605101609_n_z ps7c8d4e4b.jpg.html)

[DannyBoy]

I found the difference to be about twice that, here is a complete motor, trans, ECU & wire-harness for about the same as just an LS3 crate engine/ ECU without accessories:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-G8-GXP-6-2L-LS3-Engine-60k-Mile-6-Speed-Manual-Trans-Package-LS2-LS1/311121672813?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D26263%26meid%3D622d45a1604d48039309b5d34eb 4e126%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D10942%26rk%3D1%26rkt% 3D4%26sd%3D311121672813

or if the G8 doesn't work, here is one from a Camaro for just a little more:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-13-CHEVY-CAMARO-6-2L-LS3-COMPLETE-LIFTOUT-69K-W-6SPEED-MANUAL-TRANSMISSION-/131254541523?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e8f615cd3&vxp=mtr

and another for still about the same as just a crate LS3, ECU and accessories:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-CAMARO-Engine-6-2L-LS3-PICK-OUT-WITH-TR6060-6-SPEED-2012-28K-/380985152478?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58b47c13de&vxp=mtr

So I see:
$8,500 + $500 for ECU/ harness work = $9k
vs.
$7k (motor) + $1k ECU/ Harness + $1,500 accessories + $500 Clutch + $3k (trans) = $13k

These are all with a 1 minute search on ebay, I'm sure with some more digging there are better deals out there. The ONLY issue I see is if the TR6060 is an absolute no-go compared to the T56 magnum in your trans tunnel, anybody know??? If the TR6060 is a no-go than yes buy new because the LS3 takeout without a trans is almost the same price as with one...

So, I did a little more looking around and found an LS2 with T56 out of an 06 GTO with 50k miles on it for $6,999... Not a bad deal! However, doesn't the T56 out of the GTO require some modification to work with a 1st Gen Camaro? I could be misinformed but I thought there was something easier about going with a T56 Magnum.

[DannyBoy]

THIS!!!!!!

OK I had a 383 in my camaro...loved the hell outta it!, she was pissed off and fast....blew it up, so I swapped to a budget LS swap (carbed 6.0 engine) and the car is more fun!! the power band and torque are in a completely different area on the LS feels like the same overall HP, I painted the motor more old school to theme with the car

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/10/2008lq4engine_zpsac6c2a1b-1.jpg (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/rprouty3/media/Camaro/2008-lq4-engine_zpsac6c2a1b.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/09/10311721_10203709227641644_2475257602605-1.jpg (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/rprouty3/media/Camaro/10311721_10203709227641644_2475257602605101609_n_z ps7c8d4e4b.jpg.html)

LOVE-IT!!! The old school looking paint scheme on the modern engine is just awesome... Nicely done! Did you source a used engine/trans (if so, from what) or buy new parts?

[Rod]

LOVE-IT!!! The old school looking paint scheme on the modern engine is just awesome... Nicely done! Did you source a used engine/trans (if so, from what) or buy new parts?

Thanks!!! it was a used 6.0 LQ4 ...sourced off eBay they gave me a 12month warranty! ha ha ha ha ha guess they didn't know I was racing the car....I used a edelbrock intake, MSD timing computer, manual truck flywheel, trans dapt mounts, Holley accessory drive, Moroso pan and pickup, Sanderson headers, Moroso air oil separator....I re-used my old 4 speed(super T10) and a centerforce dual friction 11inch clutch, that's what the Truck flywheel allows you to do without any adapters

[Motobrewmaster]

First, Sorry for jumping in late to this thread. I am going through this same question debate right now too so this thread is perfectly timed. I am currently running an old school SBC putting down some good HP, but getting old and not a very streetable engine. The LS engines look like the perfect upgrade to replace the old mill.

That said I too have a limited (extras) budget and have to do things in economic steps. I also live in the great white north of NE which means 6 months of snow = 3 months of frost heaves leaving only 3 months of good driving. Therefore winter is for working on the toys (bikes too) and the warm dry months are for enjoying them! Last winter it was the brakes, this winter 4-link, cage and T56. So the foundation is coming together. Oh and I will autocross it and do trackways with it (I am an ex motorcycle road racer and am currently a track day instructor for motorcycles), so "spirited" driving is necessary.

So to my question. I am completely sold on the LS, at bit confused to which LS is what I want (any comparisons of the LS engines is appreciated) it is just now in research mode and bank building to afford it. My thoughts currently for engine requirements are to stay normally aspirated, maximum 7500 rpm, flat power band, 550 HP to the wheels, weight less than a SBC, oh and keep the engine under a flat hood. Where would you guys point me and or recommend me to research the best LS for achieving this?

If you want more details on the rest of the build feel free to ask if it helps your recommendation.

Cheers, Brew

[sixfivepost]

My LH8/TKO 600 swap cost me about 11 grand. Was more headaches and cost getting mixed and matched parts to work together.
If I were to do it all over again I would have gone with a plug and play crate LS3 package from Pace Performance. Would have cost me about $16k with a LS3/480/t56 connect and cruise package or 11k with a 480 HP LS3 package and a TKO 600. That is with no labor. I did it myself and it isn't that difficult.

[gbs714]

The sbc with a blower is still a good choice. One factor not mentioned is nostalgia for the sbc, unique sound (a firing order everyone recognizes), and the people scratching their head when your times are better with a carb. True story, happens all time in SoCal. Either choice is awesome, I have both and they have their advantages and disadvantages.