Street Car Seat Belt and Seat Upgrade

[jtwoods4]

Hey Everyone,

I have a 1970 Trans Am with a lot of modifications. Very powerful car. Problem is that the interior is stock. Stock seats and seat belts. The 70 car's had a shoulder strap and a lap belt.

I want to upgrade the seats and seat belts to make them safer but I am running into a wall on this issue.... no pun intended.

Everything I am reading says 5 and 6 point harnesses with a roll bar and fixed back seat are dangerous and not approved for street use.

How do I upgrade my 40 year old seat and seat belt? I need something way safer but cant find a safe option..... all the forums come to the conclusions that harnesses and roll bars are unsafe.... well my 40 year belt is extremely unsafe.... how do I upgrade? THIS IS A HIGH POWERED STREET CAR.

-John

[Rod]

any good seat like Recaro, Corbeau, Sparco will be an improvement over the stock seats, as for the 3 point shoulder harness you can update to a Morris classic set up, theirs works very well, if you want a Harness, 4-point-5 point, what ever you will need a roll bar with a harness bar for them to be properly installed other wise its worse than a factory 3 point

[jtwoods4]

It looks like a Sparco adjustable seat and a Morris 3 point belt is my only SAFE option for the street. Harnesses and Roll Bars are unsafe for the street from everything I have read.

[SSLance]

I'm working on a plan to put a 4 point roll bar in my car with a place to safely mount harnesses to. It'll be far enough away from my head when sitting to be safe to run without a helmet on, but will make my rear seat unusable.

It's a tough call, but the more I look at it, the more I'm leaning this way.

[jtwoods4]

I'm working on a plan to put a 4 point roll bar in my car with a place to safely mount harnesses to. It'll be far enough away from my head when sitting to be safe to run without a helmet on, but will make my rear seat unusable.

It's a tough call, but the more I look at it, the more I'm leaning this way.

Do not install a 4 point harness. 4 point lacks the anti submarine strap. You could also break your neck if you are not wearing a hans device and using a harness. Harnesses are not made for street cars. Harnesses only work correctly if paired with the correct seat and Hans device.

I have quickly learned that a cars safety is setup for street or the track, there is no in between. Harnesses are simply not for street use. Roll bar maybe if installed correctly, but harness no.

Read this article.

http://www.ogracing.com/blog/2013/02/6-things-you-need-to-consider-before-buying-harnesses/

[Rod]

I'm working on a plan to put a 4 point roll bar in my car with a place to safely mount harnesses to. It'll be far enough away from my head when sitting to be safe to run without a helmet on, but will make my rear seat unusable.

It's a tough call, but the more I look at it, the more I'm leaning this way.

do what feels right Lance...you know as well as I do, when you were running Gateway at 130mph (like we were) there's a lot of time to decide HOW SAFE YOU NEED TO BE! and as I looked at the wall on the banked corners zipping by me I knew right away! a cage was next, along with a harness, Fuel pump cut off, battery cut off, many things I never thought to put in a championship autocross car like Jane...but even the auto crosses are faster now.....HELL at Michigan in the autocross I was shifting to third on the back straight before the finish.....and for my car that's over 70 mph....on an autocross!

[jtwoods4]

Sorry wasnt trying to be a jerk Lance, just make sure you understand how harnesses work before installing in a street car.

[TheJDMan]

Well there are a lot of opinions on this subject and here comes mine. A roll bar is not a problem on the street if it is properly located and installed. It will do the same job of protecting the driver on the street as it does on the track. The biggest down side to a roll bar is that it basically eliminates the use of the back seat. I also have no problem wearing a 4 point harness on the street provided it is the right 4 point. I'm using a Schroth 4 point Profi II FE belt with "Anti Submarine" (ASM) technology which is DOT legal.

If you want to find out more you can read about the Schroth belts with ASM technology here.http://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-asm/profi-II-asm


Here is a video of crash dummy tests with and without the Schroth ASM technology.

http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv

[Schwartz Performance]

Roll bars aren't unsafe for the street. I also have a Miata, there's a ton of talk about "style bars" vs "roll bars". Style bars have actually saved lives in Miatas although they're not fastened to the car like a better racing roll bar.
My personal theory is if it's good enough to save you on a race track going 150, then it's plenty for the street. That's why my daily driver has a HANS device.
Just kidding..
Schroth makes some good stuff, we've used them in a few builds. Same with Corbeau.
We and OG racing (another vendor here) can help you out with parts if you need, too!

-Dale

[jtwoods4]

Hmmmmm..... The Profi II ASM Changes the ballgame. This appears to be the only solution on the market that is safe for street use.

[SSLance]

Sorry wasnt trying to be a jerk Lance, just make sure you understand how harnesses work before installing in a street car.


I wasn't considering a 4 point harness, just a 4 point roll bar to attach a 5 or 6 point harness to. I've studied Ron Sutton's thread on this board intently and am working on a plan to put some of those ideas in motion.

Most of it is going to revolve around the seat choice...which will be the hardest part for me.

[NOT A TA]

I ran the Schroth ASM 4 points in my car (same as JT's) for a couple years till I got the full cage with Schroths 6 points. The 4 point harness made it a lot easier to drive on track along with bolstering the stock seats so I could concentrate more on driving without trying to keep myself from sliding around on the vinyl seats. Plus, I felt the 4 point ASM were much safer than the 40 year old lap belts. Initially I had both the stock belts and 4 points mounted at the same time thinking I'd use the stockers on street but quickly realized I liked the Schroths more even for street driving.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior001-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/The%2014%20Car%20Safety%20upgrades/The14Carinterior001.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/bird003-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/The%2014%20Car%20Safety%20upgrades/The14Carinterior001.jpg.html)

[jtwoods4]

I wasn't considering a 4 point harness, just a 4 point roll bar to attach a 5 or 6 point harness to. I've studied Ron Sutton's thread on this board intently and am working on a plan to put some of those ideas in motion.

Most of it is going to revolve around the seat choice...which will be the hardest part for me.

After researching the Schroth Profi II ASM FE it appears to be the best option with a roll bar. It says sub belts can be added at any time and that it can also be used with a HANS device. So we could use the 4 point Profi II ASM FE harness on the street and then attached the sub belts for track weekends. This is the ONLY harness that exists that claims to be street legal and SAFE on the street. It appears to be the perfect setup for a pro touring street car that will participate in track day events.

As for seats I tested the Sparco EVO II and it fit nice. However, it does not come in leather so I am looking at the Recaro Pole Position now, which comes in leather and looks very very nice, even though it is almost double the price :(

I am in the garage now measuring the mounting brackets. I am considering using the Wedge Firebird Mounting Brackets and the Recaro or Sparco side mount adapter. Link below is the to wedge mounting brakcets (they mistyped Plymouth instead of Pontiac)

http://wedgebrackets.com/plymouth-firebird-70-74-seat-brackets.html

[jtwoods4]

I ran the Schroth ASM 4 points in my car (same as JT's) for a couple years till I got the full cage with Schroths 6 points. The 4 point harness made it a lot easier to drive on track along with bolstering the stock seats so I could concentrate more on driving without trying to keep myself from sliding around on the vinyl seats. Plus, I felt the 4 point ASM were much safer than the 40 year old lap belts. Initially I had both the stock belts and 4 points mounted at the same time thinking I'd use the stockers on street but quickly realized I liked the Schroths more even for street driving.


Hey John.... your car is so awesome... do you have any advice for mounting a sparco or recaro seat in a 70 Firebird? Wedge makes some mounting brackets specific to the car but not sure if they work with the sparco or recaro side mounts.

[LS7 Z/28]

Do not install a 4 point harness. 4 point lacks the anti submarine strap. You could also break your neck if you are not wearing a hans device and using a harness. Harnesses are not made for street cars. Harnesses only work correctly if paired with the correct seat and Hans device.

I have quickly learned that a cars safety is setup for street or the track, there is no in between. Harnesses are simply not for street use. Roll bar maybe if installed correctly, but harness no.

Read this article.

http://www.ogracing.com/blog/2013/02/6-things-you-need-to-consider-before-buying-harnesses/
I think you are overreacting big time dude. People raced in Formula 1, NASCAR, Indy etc. for decades before the Hans was even invented. 4 point belts are way safer than a crappy street car seat belt when properly installed with a decent seat. You don't just instantly break your neck while wearing harnesses and not using a neck device If you happen to get into a wreck... And the anti submarine straps don't do anything the majority of the time if you have the shoulder and lap belts cinched down tight. You don't just come shooting out from under the belts when you hit something. They are there for added containment and to hold you in the seat while violently flipping over.

A Hans or other neck devices are a great idea when running a car at speed on a track, but the harness came way before the Hans. It's important to have a decent seat while using harnesses but to say they cannot be used at all without a Hans is not correct.

Roll bars as others have stated... Most definitely improve safety on the street or track. You just have to properly install the cage and make damn sure your body cannot contact the cage during an accident or normal movement in the car.

[jtwoods4]

Casey, I am not over reacting about the dangers of 4 point harnesess. Until schroth invented the 4 point ASM harness it was widely agreed that stock 3 point belts were safer. I respect you and your comments but do some more research on the topic. here is a comment directly from one of the sponsors of this website, OG Racing.

"People sometimes request 4-point harnesses because they can not use a 5- or 6-point belt with their factory seats. This is often true even of factory “race seats” (such as the Recaro seats available in Mustangs) that have harness holes in the seat back. While we do stock them for the tuner and show car market, we do not recommend using 4-point harnesses on the street or track. 4-point harnesses are insufficient for track use because they can actually be more dangerous than the factory belts in a crash. This is due to an effect called “submarining” in which the waist of the user starts to move underneath the belts and towards their feet (see the video above). This motion positions the buckle of a four point harness right over the soft vital organs, which can lead to devastating results when your body lunges forward during a crash. Some models claim to have “anti-submarining” features built in, but until we see solid test results (which you rarely do), we don’t recommend any 4-point harnesses."

[LS7 Z/28]

Casey, I am not over reacting about the dangers of 4 point harnesess. Until schroth invented the 4 point ASM harness it was widely agreed that stock 3 point belts were safer. I respect you and your comments but do some more research on the topic. here is a comment directly from one of the sponsors of this website, OG Racing.

"People sometimes request 4-point harnesses because they can not use a 5- or 6-point belt with their factory seats. This is often true even of factory “race seats” (such as the Recaro seats available in Mustangs) that have harness holes in the seat back. While we do stock them for the tuner and show car market, we do not recommend using 4-point harnesses on the street or track. 4-point harnesses are insufficient for track use because they can actually be more dangerous than the factory belts in a crash. This is due to an effect called “submarining” in which the waist of the user starts to move underneath the belts and towards their feet (see the video above). This motion positions the buckle of a four point harness right over the soft vital organs, which can lead to devastating results when your body lunges forward during a crash. Some models claim to have “anti-submarining” features built in, but until we see solid test results (which you rarely do), we don’t recommend any 4-point harnesses."

I was going to take the time to reply to your comments but it's really not worth it to me so I'll just say this. Don't take everything you read as Gospel just because it comes from a site sponsor like OG.

Ron Sutton is a genius but there most certainly are people out there who have a difference of opinion on multiple subjects.

As always people will have their own opinions and do their own studies and technical research and you know what will always be the one constant among all of those differing opinions? The fact that no one person or organization is "correct".Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

[OG_Racing]

Sorry for being so late to this..

Yes please avoid the 4 point harnesses when the vehicle is moving. We stock the 4 points for display use only.
The schroth 4 point harness was brought up. to evaluate if that harness is safe you need some background into what kind Damage a 4 point harness can cause.

yes submarining is the #1 issue with 4 points. the #2 issue with a 4 point harness is that it will not restrain you by your hips. Your hips can take G forces of well over 100G before internal damage. Your gut or Stomach can only take 3g's of force before internal damage/Bleeding will occur. At that point it's how fast can you get to the hospital, because you only have a few minutes left. for the record a 35 mph crash can generate 35g of force.

In schroth's video you can clearly See the 4 point harness popping off the dummy's hips and entering the stomach. watch the video and note time 1:10. you can see the harness entering the stomach. If that dummy was a alive. he would have a very slim chance at living for longer than a few minutes after the crash.
The problem with all 4 point harnesses is the shoulder straps locate at the hip strap. when a crash occurs the shoulders rotating forward, pull up on the hip strap. the pulling up motion remove the strap off the hips and enters it into the stomach.

A proper harness needs all mounting points to locate solidly into the chassis. a basic 5 point harness has a submarine strap that will keep the hip strap located squarely over the hips.


I was going to take the time to reply to your comments but it's really not worth it to me so I'll just say this. Don't take everything you read as Gospel just because it comes from a site sponsor like OG.


Ron Sutton is a genius but there most certainly are people out there who have a difference of opinion on multiple subjects.


As always people will have their own opinions and do their own studies and technical research and you know what will always be the one constant among all of those differing opinions? The fact that no one person or organization is "correct".Take everything you read with a grain of salt.


I promise i will do everything in my Power to keep everyone i work with safe. I like return customers.

[OG_Racing]

I think you are overreacting big time dude. People raced in Formula 1, NASCAR, Indy etc. for decades before the Hans was even invented. 4 point belts are way safer than a crappy street car seat belt when properly installed with a decent seat. You don't just instantly break your neck while wearing harnesses and not using a neck device If you happen to get into a wreck... And the anti submarine straps don't do anything the majority of the time if you have the shoulder and lap belts cinched down tight. You don't just come shooting out from under the belts when you hit something. They are there for added containment and to hold you in the seat while violently flipping over.


CJ, Please don't take this as an insult. but... there was never a time when drivers raced with a 4 point. it went from no harness to a lap belt, to a 5 point. Now we have 6 points and formula 6 points. Before the mid 90's the driver mortality rate was off the charts. Race car drivers died and that's was just what happened. Professional racing wasn't safe until Ayrton Senna death and the FIA was formed. The Club racing ranks are still dangerous. People are under informed or decide that they cannot afford proper safety gear. So please dont mention "that's the way it was before so it's ok now" in relation to safety gear. The way it was before people died constantly, and Safety equipment makes massive improvements every year.

Take this into consideration..
We haven't lost a Formula 1 Driver in 20 years. last year (mid 2013 to mid 2014) 525 Amature drivers lost their lives.


link to Ayrton Senna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayrton_Senna

[LS7 Z/28]

CJ, Please don't take this as an insult. but... there was never a time when drivers raced with a 4 point. it went from no harness to a lap belt, to a 5 point. Now we have 6 points and formula 6 points. Before the mid 90's the driver mortality rate was off the charts. Race car drivers died and that's was just what happened. Professional racing wasn't safe until Ayrton Senna death and the FIA was formed. The Club racing ranks are still dangerous. People are under informed or decide that they cannot afford proper safety gear. So please dont mention "that's the way it was before so it's ok now" in relation to safety gear. The way it was before people died constantly, and Safety equipment makes massive improvements every year.

Take this into consideration..
We haven't lost a Formula 1 Driver in 20 years. last year (mid 2013 to mid 2014) 525 Amiture drivers lost their lives.


link to Ayrton Senna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayrton_Senna
If you read my previous statment I never stated that 4 point systems were used or that they are superior to a 5 or 6 point system. I commented that the 4 point system that the OP was bashing would be superior to his 70's tech seats and belts when coupled with a properly mounted race seat and installed properly.

There is no arguement that he should use a 6 point harness and a well made race seat.

It's just irritating to me that race safety equipment has such a negative stigma with the "street car" crowd.

In a car without air bags, a 3 point system stands to dish out a neck injury no different from a harness system. The shoulder strap is holding your chest in place while g forces try to trow your head off your body. There is no doubt that a Hans and a helmet is the right way to go, but how many people drive down the street wearing their Stilo and Hans. When you bring your street car to the track then of course.


The OP stated that using harnesses in any situation is unsafe without the use of a neck device. as if harnesses were Ebola and everyone should stay away from them, that's why I said something.

My statment about sub straps not doing a whole lot in most scenarios comes from real life experience with tight belts and a rigid seat that doesn't allow your thighs to move like the video he linked where you can seat the seat cushion move while the woman slides under the 3 point street belt. I never should have said anything about his topic as you are clearly correctly that subs straps are needed. All I meant was that the majority of the time hitting something really hard with tight harnesses you get the wind knocked out of you, you don't have sore nuts because you slid downward on impact.

Properly mounted 6 point Schroth Harnesses are the way to go with a Butler Built, Kirkey, Lajoie.etc. seat. All properly mounted of course, with a well built cage. It's a good thing that the OP is researching all of this because so many people overlook it.

I apologize for any negative connotation towards this thread.

[TheJDMan]

My take away from the ASM technology video is that it is designed to allow the upper body to rotate in the same manor as a factory 3 point shoulder belt would while at the same time providing 25% more belts to retain the body in the seat. From that standpoint alone a 4 point ASM equipped harness would be at the very least 25% safer than a factory 3 point on the street. In addition, with the ability to add submarine belts and the HANS compatibility I see no downside to using it on the track as well. The ASM technology is unique to Schroth and I know of no other belt manufacturer that offers anything similar which in my mind puts the ASM belts into a different category than non-ASM harnesses.

A quick look at the OG Racing web site shows a number of 4 point harnesses for sale from Sparco and a list of other harness manufacturers none of which incorporate ASM technology into their products. My take away on that is that OG Racing is basing their recommendation against 4 point harness use on their experience with the products they sell. From that standpoint I would have to agree, I would never install a non-ASM 4 point. However, as I said above the ASM technology puts the Schroth harness in a separate category in my mind.

Don't get me wrong I like OG Racing, I'm one of their customers, I purchased my Sparco seats from them. But I just feel the OG recommendations are based on experience with products they sell. To be honest, I would like to see OG Racing pickup the Schroth product line. Then when they get a customer that wants a 4 point harness they could sell one that is actually safe to use rather than sell 4 point harnesses for show only.

[manOwar]

I'm at he point of looking for seat belts so this thread is timely.

My car will mostly used on the street, however it will see some track and I don't want a 3 point and I don't want a fixed 4 or 5 point.

The Schroth Autocontrol II with ASM looks to be the best fit for all around use in a street car that see some track time with it's S.M.A.R.T (Sensor Modulated Automatic Restraint Technology).

[jerome]

I'm at he point of looking for seat belts so this thread is timely.

My car will mostly used on the street, however it will see some track and I don't want a 3 point and I don't want a fixed 4 or 5 point.

The Schroth Autocontrol II with ASM looks to be the best fit for all around use in a street car that see some track time with it's S.M.A.R.T (Sensor Modulated Automatic Restraint Technology).

Why not use 3 point on the street and a 6 point on the track?

[DSL]

Hey guys. New to the forum and wanted to get some feedback Seems that a lot of folks on this forum have been using the BMW M3 convertible seats with integrated seat belt to accommodate a shoulder restraint
Any opinions on this? It seems a all the reliance is in the floor mount.

[MonzaRacer]

Well after dealing with a shoulder injury because of twisting from factory crap a$$ three point harness in my last wreck I can tell you that when I wrecked a drag car( 4 endovers,then lays down and rolls 3 more times. I walked away after that while using 4 point harness and never moved from my seat). And HANS had never been heard of back then. Had some bruises on my shoulder but no injury. With 4 point harness. Every time I have had factory belts on in street cars I get hurt worse. And after having done Fords recall on the "shotgun shell" tensioner for seat belts and someone tells me a racing harness is less dangerous must have never wrecks with those POS setups on.
And now I have a 66 Caprice, lap belt only. I really think better belts and more bolstered seats would help, and I have asked many Indiana police and emergency personnel and they ALL say they would never complain if a person had them in a street car.
I have it from a VERY high up person at one of the race harness makers that more reason to down play street use is liability and such.
I watched a guy with a Cobra and a gopro and 4 point and car turned over and guy stayed put and ONLY got small scratch on top of his head .
I honestly have watched so many different videos of do use and don't use harness and as for me EVERY time I wear factory belts and wreck I get HURT.
And honestly in all instances of us in a racing harness I have never tried to come out from under a harness.
This is just my experience and personal opinion.
Again, so many negate using them on street, and say you HAVE to use a HANS device. And how many years did actual racer never even THINK on using something like them and survived just fine.
Now my Caprice is 4dr SportsRoof(hardtop with no post) and I have thought about a bar to attach 4 point too. Also this is because harness are cheaper than unknown quality reproduction 66 lap belts.
I have buddy who took his car to a chassis guy NAD that guy REALLY tucked the bars up and away, actually nearly next to body sheet metal and welded to car more completely than I had ever seen. He has complete interior and it pads and covers his cage.
He has many pictures, an actual full car xray or ct type scan showing where it is and how its attached. And he has several inspection flaps with snaps or Velcro.
But basically he was told a cage couldn't be safely integrated, then found a guy who did it.
I also like figuring out how do what others can't.
But that's me.

[j-c-c]

1. The OG premise of 4 points being a hazard in themselves I agree 100%
2. The OG linked video is motion propaganda, for the right intent, but with a wrong depiction.
3. An OEM 3 point is much better then any 4 point, no how tight, fastened, etc the 4 point is
4. #3 Died contacting a concrete wall at a closing speed of only 47? mph.
5. Ron Sutton is a sharp guy

My case, in our typical cars with upright seating, with normal distributed body mass, your human COG vertically is around your belly button. The typical lap belt os around your hips on all belt systems, ie below your belly button. Upon any sudden hard deceleration, your upper body rotates forward around the lap belt (remember, we are not talking lay down formula cars) , the upper body is restrained by the shoulder harnesses, and no matter how tight, they have more slack, and a softer more squishable anatomy to confine, vs the hip bones/pelvis, that movement simultaneously yanks the lap belt upwards, into the soft and very venerable non protected stomach/organ area ( as previously mentioned. The large upper body mass above the lap belt provides all the force for this upward motion of the lap belt/buckle, the only item to resist this motion is the "anti- submarine" belt. I think it is improperly named, but see little chance of that ever being resolved.

A halo seat makes sense.

A Hans type device makes sense.

A full cage that has ANY steel tubing ,,element within 12"? of a helmetless occupant at any speed makes as much sense as one likes getting hit in the head with an alum baseball bat unexpectedly, even it the bat has a 1/2" of nice pretty foam on it.

[Y-TRY]

I've been researching ( ie watching you guys argue) on this subject, hoping for a definitive conclusion. Still no "ah-ha!" revelation.

I have Corbeau CR1 seats (gasp! reclining!) and a DSE roll bar with removable rear brace. I had hoped to attach a 4-point harness for driving around and occasional track play, with the ability to remove the shoulders and brace if I need access to the back seat for whatever reason. I figured a new 3" lap belt would beat the 40 year old lap belts id be replacing. I think the best news is that I can cut a hole in the seats to add a 5th point/ASM. So that gives the option for 5/6 point harness. I can't imagine the look of a 3 point belt draped across nice racing seats.
I'm also not sure where to attach the ASM under the seat, though. To the floor? To the seat slider frame?

Also, I was thinking about installing ARP studs in the floor to attach the seats to, like you would a carb. Bad idea?

[j-c-c]

Based of my previously stated ASM comments, its first function in upright seating is to prevent the lap belt being pulled up by the shoulder harnesses, I have no quantitative data to back this next statement, but I suspect the ASM belt has the lowest stress of all the belts in a typical shunt, although its a very delicate region. However saying any one belt is not important would not be something I would ever share. Also realize, the 3 point can't be pulled up by the cross your chest belt, which is why its acceptable on the street. Driver performance is greatly enhanced by being snug in the car, and a 3 point doesn't cut it, as you have pointed out.