Speedtech AFX spindle vs stock spindle+tall Howe balljoints

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm currently running SC&C's SPC upper and lower A arms with the screw in Howe tall ball joints in my 67' GTO. Im also going to be running Kore3 Z51 brakes in the front. In the future iv'e considered going to Speedtech AFX spindles but i'm wondering what the real world differences are between the Speedtech spindle and the stock spindle + tall ball joints.

Discuss

[csouth]

If I'm not mistaken, the tall ball joints will only cure the camber issue caused by the factory spindle height. The AFX spindle offers improved geometry with the revised steering arm location and arm design improves bumpsteer.

[Nothingface5384]

On that note I think what Chris me turned above applied to the tall version of the fax and not the stock height version

[csouth]

On that note I think what Chris me turned above applied to the tall version of the fax and not the stock height version

Correct, I am referring to the tall version. If you use the short version, there would still be a need for the tall BJ.

[silvermonte]

From a safety stand point if you plan on alot of auto-x or doing some track days the AFX spindle has a stronger wheel bearing in it. I talked to Ron Sutton a bit about this for my Olds and they have horrible small bearings, and he said for piece of mind I should trade them out after each track day or every few auto-x. Im pretty sure yours are a bit larger but not by much. He also said even for my C4 corvette I should put new bearings in every year if tracked regularly. The AFX spindles have the sealed C5 bearings and there have been people tracking on them with not problems.

[Nicks67GTO]

So i'm already set up with the SPC arms with tall ball joints. If I did the short version of the AFX spindles with the tall ball joints, do I get the same benefit as the taller spindle with the standard balljoint?

[silvermonte]

So i'm already set up with the SPC arms with tall ball joints. If I did the short version of the AFX spindles with the tall ball joints, do I get the same benefit as the taller spindle with the standard balljoint?

Im interested to hear the answer to this question. I bought a set of SPC arms with tall AFX spindles used and it didn't come with good ball joints. I had already purchased the tall ball joints for a different set of arms awhile back and was just planning on using them with the tall spindles that I have now. Hopefully someone will chime in and answer your question.

[rickpaw]

So i'm already set up with the SPC arms with tall ball joints. If I did the short version of the AFX spindles with the tall ball joints, do I get the same benefit as the taller spindle with the standard balljoint?

Talk to Marcus at SC&C. I have the same set up you have, although mine is for a 67 Firebird. IIRC, Marcus basically said to get the full benefit of the AFX spindle, a tall AFX spindle should be used with a regular BJ. I could be wrong, but I "think" you can run into BJ bind if a tall BJ is used with a tall AFX spindle.

[csouth]

So i'm already set up with the SPC arms with tall ball joints. If I did the short version of the AFX spindles with the tall ball joints, do I get the same benefit as the taller spindle with the standard balljoint?

What the tall ball joint does is move the pickup point to the same location or close to the location of the tall spindle. I opted for the tall AFX because I would never have to worry about finding a replacement ball joint if there was an emergency. Good luck finding a tall BJ on the road at your local NAPA....

[Nicks67GTO]

What the tall ball joint does is move the pickup point to the same location or close to the location of the tall spindle. I opted for the tall AFX because I would never have to worry about finding a replacement ball joint if there was an emergency. Good luck finding a tall BJ on the road at your local NAPA....

If i'm being totally honest here I got the SPC A Arms with the screw in ball joints.... short or tall i'm guessing neither are available at any local parts house?

[Ben@SpeedTech]

I think the screw in ball joints are a factory Mopar style, you'll have to ask Mark or SPC about that one to verify. I also had the screw in ball joints in the SPC arms I took off my car. They were Howe joints, although as I mentioned I think the screw in design is based on a Mopar thing. Mine were awfully loose after only a short time driving, but I've read that Howe intends them to be loose to cut down on friction in circle track cars so I never tried to replace them. I never contacted Howe about this so I can't verify that info.

Our standard height ATS/ AFX spindle has a 1" drop, new upgraded 2013 ZO6 hubs, C5+ brake caliper bosses, relocated billet steering arms to help eliminate bumpsteer and it is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. They are stock height ball joint to ball joint. Adding a tall ball joint is fine and would be the same gain as adding a tall ball joint to a factory spindle.

For those serious about performance, our tall height spindle is almost 2" taller than the standard height, which means a standard spindle with a 1/2" tall ball joint is only about 25% of the gain you'd see with the tall spindle. The tall spindle is made of even stronger 7075 T73 aluminum. It also has the 1" drop, the C5+ brake mounts, the relocated billet steering arms, and the '13 ZO6 hubs.

Here is a link to our A body AFX spindles for more info. Speedtech/ ATS spindles (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=136/category_id=76/mode=prod/prd136.htm)

Hope this info is what you were looking for. If you have specific questions about our spindles or any of our A body products please feel free to ask here, pm, or give us a call at 435.628.4300.

[silvermonte]

Ben- Do you know what would happen if you ran the tall Bj's with the tall spindles?

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Ben- Do you know what would happen if you ran the tall Bj's with the tall spindles?

That's too much height. In this case "if some is good then more must be better" doesn't apply. The spindle is the ideal way to go and is the height it is because of extensive engineering. Remember the concept is to maximize camber gain without throwing things out of whack. The stock height spindle with taller ball joints is a cheaper, albeit less effective way to try to accomplish improved geometry results.

Hope that makes sense.

[csouth]

If i'm being totally honest here I got the SPC A Arms with the screw in ball joints.... short or tall i'm guessing neither are available at any local parts house?

That's true. Full disclosure helps...lol

[killer69]

What is the obsession with at SPC arms on A and G Body's? someone needs to fill me in! how often are you guys planning on adjusting the alignment? I have no problem building adjustable arms if there is a logical reason to do it

[silvermonte]

I cant say for the A bodys, but since I own a G-body I think it has to do with what you see used more often. I dont think it has anything to do with being adjustable. Off the top of my head I can think of Ridetech, SPC, UMI and Spohn that offer a-arms. Out of those 4 I have only seen Ridetech and SPC stuff being used in a auto-x or on a track. I wont count drag cars and show cars because I dont give two hoots about that. I bought a entire front end set up used and got a pretty decent deal with it. I knew I wanted the AFX spindle and if I hadnt got the deal I did I most likely would of went with your kit.

[Nicks67GTO]

What is the obsession with at SPC arms on A and G Body's? someone needs to fill me in! how often are you guys planning on adjusting the alignment? I have no problem building adjustable arms if there is a logical reason to do it

I don't want shims if i don't have to have them. With a 45 year old frame that had loose tolerances from the factory, iv'e seen some serious stacks of shims to get everything aligned properly. If you own a Pontiac with headers and there are a lot of shims, you will have header clearance problems. If you have ever owned a Poncho with headers, youll know what i'm talking about with the stock A arm interference. The other thing is that I liked the SC&C setup and customer service. Marc seemed to really know his stuff and have a sincere passion for making the old boats handle well. I read his book and it all made sense so I called him, listened for 2 hours and I decided to go with his parts. He was recommended over and over so I pretty much bought in on positive recommendations.

[SRD art]

Sorry to hijack for a minute-

SPC makes a nice product. So do some of the other manufacturers of upper control arms. The point here is that all of their competitors are wondering why the swarm to their upper control arms? What makes maybe 50% + of A body owners and maybe 75%+ of G body owners pay more for them? Why are they considered better than a solid arm?

I see your points, they are good ones. Marc does have a great passion for this, is very knowledgeable, enjoys getting old cars to handle better and has written a great book that Speedtech endorses in our catalog. But aside from the book, other companies like Speedtech Performance for example, have those qualities too. We aren't out just to follow the crowd and get a piece of the $ pie, we build parts with the intent to make cars handle better plain and simple. Our goal is doing this with high quality customer service. There are always people that whine and no one can please, but aside from them you'll find our customer service average is highly rated, we genuinely care that you're satisfied with your products. We even have a customer feedback form link on our website and welcome both positive and negative feedback so we can provide our customers with better products.

As with other companies we have lots of cars with our parts running in events and races. We just like to keep pricing lower rather than jack them up so we can be in everyone's face at every event with marketing. The budget for that stuff doesn't magically appear out of nowhere, it's built into the cost of the parts and paid for by those who buy them. We'd probably have more A & G bodies equipped with our parts but we see again and again and again SPC arms on these cars.

The Pontiac power plant makes a lot of sense. A decent quality arm, for example the Speedtech arms have a billet cross shaft that is machined differently on either side so that you have two options of where to start your alignment settings. Putting it on the aggressive side means less shims to deal with.

I had SPCs on my G Body before I came to work here at Speedtech. The main reason I bought those is for the same reason listed above, everyone else had them on G bodies. SC&C isn't the only place to get them but I bought mine from them because he took the time with me on the phone. I put them in, had the alignment set once, and never touched them again. I've asked around what was the real benefit to these on my car and so far haven't gotten a decent answer outside of the header clearance issue on Poncho motors.

I recently installed different sway bars and changed my G body to coilovers all around. In the process I wanted to do an experiment and replaced my SPCs with Speedtech upper arms. To be fair in the comparison I installed the 1/2" taller lower and upper ball joints for use with the same factory spindles I used before. Right off the bat with no shims I had almost 5* of positive castor and almost a full degree of negative camber. a couple of thin shims added and the car is ready to go racing.

Although I can't say the control arms made all the difference, but right out of the box and after a few clicks on the compression on the shocks I was running the same autox times I ran with my old set up which I felt was maxed out. Since then a front spring change and a rear control arm position change with my Speedtech rear adjustable brackets the car has surpassed what it did before. There's lots more adjustment still in it for better performance which equates to even better handling than I had before.

The next thing I want to add on is as stated above, the AFX spindles.

Sorry again for the hijack, I'm just one of those guys that paid more for the SPCs and can't figure out why.

[Mkelcy]

Sorry to hijack for a minute-

I recently installed different sway bars and changed my G body to coilovers all around. In the process I wanted to do an experiment and replaced my SPCs with Speedtech upper arms. To be fair in the comparison I installed the 1/2" taller lower and upper ball joints for use with the same factory spindles I used before. Right off the bat with no shims I had almost 5* of positive castor and almost a full degree of negative camber. a couple of thin shims added and the car is ready to go racing.

Although I can't say the control arms made all the difference, but right out of the box and after a few clicks on the compression on the shocks I was running the same autox times I ran with my old set up which I felt was maxed out. Since then a front spring change and a rear control arm position change with my Speedtech rear adjustable brackets the car has surpassed what it did before. There's lots more adjustment still in it for better performance which equates to even better handling than I had before.



No, you certainly can't say the arms made all the difference when you also changed sway bars and shocks before your "test." The change in UCAs likely had no impact on how your car handled, with any changes in handling being much more the result of different sway bars, shocks and possibly the alignment.

[SRD art]

You're exactly right. That's why I stated that. :)

It's safe however to say that the control arms may have affected in some way part of the whole difference in the handling improvement, mainly because no two brand control arms are made on the same jig, their designs are completely different and that means their geometry settings are likely different proprietary to each manufacturer. I.e. is it not safe to say that two different control arms will affect camber gain differently based on their design? The difference mine may have made however would be impossible to quantify unless that's all I changed this time around.

One point of the experiment was to find out if I could easily get the same alignment settings with a standard solid arm and shims as I could with SPCs. As I pointed out above, I did, in fact it was easier. It didn't take a specialty shop 2 hours to do it, anybody with an alignment rack, a box end wrench, and a few shims can easily duplicate the alignment settings I had before with the new solid arms. The other point I was trying to discover is if a different combination of parts other than what is "most popular" i.e. what everyone seems to think is the best option could yield at least the same results. I did that too. The final point was what you're eluding to. Generally speaking about an entire suspension design, a control arm alone won't make a huge difference in a car's handling. Any decent arm builder has taken into account geometry when they designed them. So what's the harm in asking a simple question, with all the high quality options out there why does everyone flock to what appears simply to be what is popular? I think it's fair to say you can get the same results with different options. If we all flock to the same choice in life because that's what everybody else is doing, then why bother having more than one choice or even the ability to think bout it?

Of course I'm saying this with a grin.

[jerome]

Would you rather have regular adjustable perch coilovers or coilovers with a fixed spring perch and use shims?

[TLWiltman]

Killer69,

I'm an F-body guy, but might be able to shed some light on a different answer to your question. I think some of it might very well be a variation of "because the cool kids have it". In my case, I've looked at them because the intent of my car is as a true no-compromise dual purpose car (road course and CP autocross). Both disciplines tend to require a little bit different geometry and a little bit different suspension settings. I'd imagine, if I wanted to take said car on the street, there'd even be yet another set of suspension settings and geometry adjustments to make. Given the tools we have available, I can see adjustments being much more simple with an adjustable arm. Granted, an adjustable arm is only one of several options at this point, but that is the appeal.

[killer69]

Killer69,

I'm an F-body guy, but might be able to shed some light on a different answer to your question. I think some of it might very well be a variation of "because the cool kids have it". In my case, I've looked at them because the intent of my car is as a true no-compromise dual purpose car (road course and CP autocross). Both disciplines tend to require a little bit different geometry and a little bit different suspension settings. I'd imagine, if I wanted to take said car on the street, there'd even be yet another set of suspension settings and geometry adjustments to make. Given the tools we have available, I can see adjustments being much more simple with an adjustable arm. Granted, an adjustable arm is only one of several options at this point, but that is the appeal.

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.

[csouth]

I kind of think this discussion has gotten off track. I feel the SPC and the fixed uppers both have their place. I know they were brought up when the OP mentioned he was using them combined with the screw in BJ. I think what we really want to know tall spindle w\standard bj vs short spindle w\tall bj....

[Nicks67GTO]

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.

Right....again for me it was
- I had 0 experience in performance handling and I read Marc's book which got me to call.
- Marc went way the heck out of the way to provide excellent info and customer service so I took his advice and bought his stuff.
- Superior Pontiac header clearance which can be an issue
- My shop had no issue aligning the car but the owner used to set up high end race cars back in the day and his kid did the work, he checked it
- The result is that I have a GTO that rides/handles great and I have 0 regrets

[Nicks67GTO]

I kind of think this discussion has gotten of track. I feel the SPC and the fixed uppers both have their place. I know they were brought up when the OP mentioned he was using them combined with the screw in BJ. I think what we really want to know tall spindle w\standard bj vs short spindle w\tall bj....

Right on. I really just wanted to know the advantages that the tall AFX spindle would have over the short AFX spindle/tall ball joints or a stock spindle and tall ball joints.....

[Rod]

Right on. I really just wanted to know the advantages that the tall AFX spindle would have over the short AFX spindle/tall ball joints or a stock spindle and tall ball joints.....


I would personally use the tall spindle. I know a standard spindle and a Tall ball joint would work fine, but the tall ball joint is a compromise and are usually only a HALF inch (.500)taller, I think they only make them so tall because having all the vehicle weight transfer on that tall skinny balljoint shaft might be a risk on more then .500. Were a tall spindle is sometimes an inch (1") to inch and a half (1-1/2")taller

[79-TA]

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.


I have SPC adjustable uppers to accommodate my car as it changes over time with different parts combinations. I do not frantically change alignment every time the car is used for something different. A different steering ratio will not need as much caster for the same steering feel. I can play with different cross shafts (right now, stock and one of my own design) and ball joint heights for different camber gain rates and the arm can always be made to work to get a good alignment.

I also don't trust most aftermarket companies to make a simple upper arm that repeats well enough to assume the built in caster is correct. I've seen a couple of aftermarket upper arms where a large stack of shims was required just to undo an overzealous (way over what was advertised) amount of built in positive caster.

[chevelletiger]

I would personally use the tall spindle. I know a standard spindle and a Tall ball joint would work fine, but the tall ball joint is a compromise and are usually only a HALF inch (.500)taller, I think they only make them so tall because having all the vehicle weight transfer on that tall skinny balljoint shaft might be a risk on more then .500. Were a tall spindle is sometimes an inch (1") to inch and a half (1-1/2")taller
Rod,i have scandc's stage2 plus ball joints, .500 tall lower, .900 upper = 1.4 tall on a stock spindle.just for the record.

[cdrod]

Rod,i have scandc's stage2 plus ball joints, .500 tall lower, .900 upper = 1.4 tall on a stock spindle.just for the record.

Chevelletiger:
I'm building a '72 Olds 442 convertible with a similar combination of parts (Howe +.9 upper BJ, +.3 lower BJ, SPC UCA, stock LCA and Helwig tubular swaybars). This is my first PT car so I 'm in unfamiliar territory. My set up has about 5* of negative camber gain with the suspension in full compression. Is this too much? When is too much camber gain a bad thing?
Thanks,

Rodney

[chevelletiger]

Chevelletiger:
I'm building a '72 Olds 442 convertible with a similar combination of parts (Howe +.9 upper BJ, +.3 lower BJ, SPC UCA, stock LCA and Helwig tubular swaybars). This is my first PT car so I 'm in unfamiliar territory. My set up has about 5* of negative camber gain with the suspension in full compression. Is this too much? When is too much camber gain a bad thing?
Thanks,

Rodneyi didnt know they made a .3 tall bj? 5Deg. Neg. Of camber seems like to much,now 5deg of positive of caster sounds right.have you had the car aligned.sorry to the op if we hijacked your thread.
Phil

[UMI Tech]

Just throwing this out there.

We've debated on standard vs adjustable arms for years. What we came up with was a nice single adjustable compromise.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_250_267&products_id=761

They accommodate standard ball joints to use with tall spindles and also come with tall ball joints for standard spindles.

We have a few sets on GoodGuys Auto-x cars and have run them at Optima Pittsburgh on the big track (as well as other customers on other road courses).

ramey

[cdrod]

i didn't know they made a .3 tall bj? 5Deg. Neg. Of camber seems like too much, now 5deg of positive of caster sounds right.have you had the car aligned.sorry to the op if we hijacked your thread.
Phil

Phil:
I don't think we hijacked the tread, this discussion seems in keeping with the OP's quest for tall spindle vs. stock spindle/tall BJ comparison. In my previous post, I'm talking about -5* of dynamic camber gain, not static camber. I wanted to check out my suspension geometry, so I bolted everything up without the springs so I can move the suspension through it's travel. I've dialed in 4* of positive caster and 0* of static camber at ride height. When I compress the suspension to the bump stop (like in a hard corner) the spindle moves to 5* of negative camber; so my camber gain is -5*. I guess if the car has 5* of body roll then the -5* camber gain offsets the roll and should keep the tire well planted in a hard turn. Maybe this is too much camber gain, I don't know?

Rodney

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

[csouth]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

One thing I like about Mark is he doesn't believe in "one size fits all" configurations. He'll explain what works best in your situation and why.

[rickpaw]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

So what was his recommendation?

[Nicks67GTO]

So what was his recommendation?

What I took away from the conversation was simply that the the tall AFX spindles are far superior to the stock or AFX short spindle/tall ball joints and well worth the big money they cost. They may not allow for bigger peak numbers in alignment specs but the "area under the curve" so to speak is far superior. Kind of like a modern cam grind. They also pretty much eliminate bump steer.

[csouth]

What I took away from the conversation was simply that the the tall AFX spindles are far superior to the stock or AFX short spindle/tall ball joints and well worth the big money they cost. They may not allow for bigger peak numbers in alignment specs but the "area under the curve" so to speak is far superior. Kind of like a modern cam grind. They also pretty much eliminate bump steer.

That is one thing the stock spindles and steering arms are not cable of is eliminating the bump steer....

[dirty rick]

I noticed that no one spoke of the changes to the roll center that the ball joint/spindle combinations create! :^)

[cdrod]

That is one thing the stock spindles and steering arms are not cable of is eliminating the bump steer....

Bump steer with stock spindle and arms can be improved with a tall lower ball joint.