72 camaro AM IFS engine placement and tire width

[rdrage728]

ok guys I will be ordering a complete front IFS in the next couple of months and have a few questions. first off the car is going to be driven prob every other week and some autocross. plans consist of t56 trans and LSX427 that I currently have that will be rebuilt with lower compression for twin turbos. It is also getting a factory ls7 drysump setup.
Ive been looking for awhile and the art morrison is prob the way im going to go but its not set in stone. my ? is what is the max tire width you can run on the AM or other subframes and last how is the engine placement. with the drysump, oil pan clearance should be awesome so im wanting to position the engine as low and as close to the firewall as possible. any opinions or advice is welcome thanks Jimmy

[David Pozzi]

My wife's 73 Camaro has an LS7 with AME sub. Front tires are 315x18. She does have the Anvil inner wheel housings which have maybe a little more room. Running stock steel fenders. Engine placement is good, it came out around an inch to inch and a half forward of where we had it positioned with the stock sub.

[rdrage728]

thanks for the information, ive had a hard time finding tire widths for the aftermarket subs. I feel alot bettter now, AME website says tested with 265s lol it had me a little worried. On the engine placement I now realize i might not have the extra oil pan clearance I thought with the drysump but may have to make my own engine side, mounts to move the engine closer to the firewall to help shift weight off the nose if this is even going to help any. Im new to the autocross stuff and have drag raced my entire life but always wanted to do some sort of road racing.

[badazz81z28]

thanks for the information, ive had a hard time finding tire widths for the aftermarket subs. I feel alot bettter now, AME website says tested with 265s lol it had me a little worried. On the engine placement I now realize i might not have the extra oil pan clearance I thought with the drysump but may have to make my own engine side, mounts to move the engine closer to the firewall to help shift weight off the nose if this is even going to help any. Im new to the autocross stuff and have drag raced my entire life but always wanted to do some sort of road racing.

Why haven't you considered DSE? I'm very skeptic to believe a 315 tire fits without rubbing full turn on the Morrison frame. Considering each frame, they cost about the same for what you get

[dhutton]

Why haven't you considered DSE? I'm very skeptic to believe a 315 tire fits without rubbing full turn on the Morrison frame. Considering each frame, they cost about the same for what you get

Maybe he priced out all the optional extras. Trans crossmember is included for example....

Don

[rdrage728]

I work at a dealer and can get the control arms, spindles, and hubs at cost so with the kore3 brake system i would be at about 7200. the DSE and others use fabed control arms that for me would raise the cost thats why I was leaning to AME

[David Pozzi]

Our rack has no limit spacers, so we are getting everything the rack can do. We have plenty of turn angle. I can stick my finger between the sway bar and tire at full lock. We use the non-splined end bar, less weight and less parts to come loose. it still has 3 adjustment holes. AME makes a splined end bar if you want that.

The DSE is a great sub. I chose the Morrison because I wanted to run the Ride Tech shocks and the DSE sub comes as a package with JRI shocks. Morrison let me have it my way. I also like the lower weight of the Corvette A arms and a great access to the shocks for adjustments or removal.
The LS7 pan clears our sub. The front drain plug for the oil passage is just forward of the rear edge of the crossmember. You may be able to flip the block adapters or motor mounts around and move the engine back a bit. If you aren't going to rework the firewall it can only go back and inch or two. Our current firewall to passenger cyl head clearance is 3.5"

[badazz81z28]

Maybe he priced out all the optional extras. Trans crossmember is included for example....

Don


After some research, the "Extras" seem to be inherent with any aftermarket subframe with a rack and pinion steering. You would also know that there is really no such thing as a one size fits all transmission cross member either. Despite the fact DSE is expensive, I still feel choosing it over the AME frame was a good choice. No doubt people have their reasons and that's ok and expected, but here were my reasons as I did honestly consider AME due to cost.


1. AME frame looked more "fabricated" and simplistic as DSE's frame looks more engineered and more like an OEM frame. Not saying this makes it better just an observation on design and thought that went into it.
2. No frills with the AME frame. It's using DSE's rack, the control arms are stock corvette and perceived low support for the upper A-arms, has a basic stock style sway bar....it's basically a stock corvette design.
3. Doesn't come powder coated and ready to install.
4. DSE has a positive/performance proven reputation.
5. For what you get, I just felt DSE was better for the dollar when you compare control arms, Coil overs, sway bar, Hydroformed rails.

Now I know I made judgments based on opinion, but without a track record, my hard earned dollars had to go to reputation since my unknowns would have been unknown risk. Just compare the frames side by side and you'll see why I thought the way I did. Just shows how important the events with people using these products are because that made a decision for me.

[David Pozzi]

You will be happy with the DSE sub, I came very close to buying one, & they have a great reputation.

We didn't like the DSE rack. It's a great rack but the ratio is 20/1 and has a softer feel than we like for a mostly autocross car. We now use a 15:1 ratio which DSE doesn't offer. Most subframes use 80's Mustang racks, and the car will steer like an 80's Mustang which isn't as good as a Saginaw box as far as feedback/stiffness goes.

Corvette A arms are lighter than the DSE fabricated arms, the geometry is modified from stock Corvette for more camber gain. DSE uses the same Corvette knuckle.
The rear leg of the lower A arm is very well supported on the front side, the rear side has a vertical support tab.
AME doesn't like to powder coat due to the chance of scratching it in shipping. They might do it if you insisted. Not powdercoating allows them to ship the sub steel band strapped in the strongest crate I've ever seen!
AME doesn't have a company car they run at Autocrosses. Their main sales focus is more street oriented but their suspension is quite capable. Charley Lillard's yellow 69 Camaro "Jackass" used AME suspension and won the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge with Mark Stielow driving a few years ago.

Last November (2013) at Goodguys Scottsdale Nationals autocross finals my wife had the fastest time except for Two Corvettes (Danny Popp and Brian Hobaugh) and a 427 Cobra (Jim Mckamey). She beat all the other cars including the DSE car driven by Ryan Mathews. I say this not to brag, but to show the AME front sub did a great job for us and that was before we installed the new IRS this spring. We had the Hotchkis prototype 3 link in the rear last year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0BCjD_ugBo

[dhutton]

After some research, the "Extras" seem to be inherent with any aftermarket subframe with a rack and pinion steering. You would also know that there is really no such thing as a one size fits all transmission cross member either. Despite the fact DSE is expensive, I still feel choosing it over the AME frame was a good choice. No doubt people have their reasons and that's ok and expected, but here were my reasons as I did honestly consider AME due to cost.


1. AME frame looked more "fabricated" and simplistic as DSE's frame looks more engineered and more like an OEM frame. Not saying this makes it better just an observation on design and thought that went into it.
2. No frills with the AME frame. It's using DSE's rack, the control arms are stock corvette and perceived low support for the upper A-arms, has a basic stock style sway bar....it's basically a stock corvette design.
3. Doesn't come powder coated and ready to install.
4. DSE has a positive/performance proven reputation.
5. For what you get, I just felt DSE was better for the dollar when you compare control arms, Coil overs, sway bar, Hydroformed rails.

Now I know I made judgments based on opinion, but without a track record, my hard earned dollars had to go to reputation since my unknowns would have been unknown risk. Just compare the frames side by side and you'll see why I thought the way I did. Just shows how important the events with people using these products are because that made a decision for me.

AME offers several different cross members with their sub and it is included in the price. I think they cover just about every option.

Having owned an AME front sub several years ago and having another one along with their IRS on order I can say that they are great folks to deal with and make great products. Matt is a talented engineer and puts a lot of effort into optimizing his designs. I am looking forward to seeing what Mary does with her new IRS.

Anyway, I am not here to debate AME vs DSE. I believe both parties have agreed that their front subs perform equally well. There is a thread on here somewhere regarding this.

Don

[rdrage728]

I am pretty much sold on the AME sub after seeing Mary's camaro and the input from all you guys. I like the idea of having factory parts that should be easy to come by if ever needed, and on the plus side it should save me some money. I never intended on spending that much but after pricing everything to do the factory sub it just makes sense to spend the extra 2 grand and do it right the first time. David Pozzi thanks for all your input its nice to talk to someone with real world experiance including others that chimed in ill take all information i can get. lol

[rdrage728]

If you dont mind me asking what year mustang rack did you use and was any fab work, or problems installing it?

[David Pozzi]

I really like the extra room around the engine we gained with this sub. The LS7 has more oil lines and we can get to them without trouble.
On my 67 Camaro, the sub outside to outside of the frame rails is 5" narrower. Lots more room for tires.

We used a Fox body Mustang rack with 15.5" mounting centers. The DSE rack is a brand-new rack, where most others are rebuilt. You are more likely to have a problem with a rebuilt rack. I researched 15:1 racks a lot and I really liked the AGR version for road racing with the stiffer torsion rod for better feel. But reading the Mustang forums, it looks like AGR won't stand behind the product if there is an issue AT ALL! Plus there were lots of complaints about poor valving and failures. I even ordered one anyway but ordered it through Summit Racing figuring I could get their help if I was sent a bad one. After 4 months waiting, I cancelled the order.
Mary's rack is 15:1 and came from AME, it's a rebuilt Maval I think. I am going to try a brand new cast aluminum rack from Flaming River on my 67. The valving is supposed to be firm with 15:1 ratio. One of the mounts clamps on the tube so maybe it is a bit less strong, that's why I opted to order the AGR at first.

On the track, a slower rack would be fine, but on a Goodguys autocross, the 15:1 is much better. The One Lap Camaro is running 15:1 on an AME sub and Bad Penny with the 21'st Century sub with similar layout is also 15:1.
DSE says they use a slightly shorter steering arm to quicken up the steering, so the 20:1 on their sub may feel a bit quicker.
David